CDZ Can a LACK of Discipline be a Form of Abuse?

[OldLady]

We tend to parent the way we were raised.

I don't. I do precisely the opposite. I'm the oldest of nine kids. The state came in and separated all of the kids and put em in foster homes after years of being at the receiving end of travesties that few Americans could even imagine.

This didn't solve the problem, it only made the consequences worse, as some have since put themselves at the end of ropes in their older years.

It is frustrating though when people who don't understand the problem think they know how to "fix" other people's kids.

Yep.

In some ways, I also did the opposite--parts I really really really found cruel or unfair.

 

[OldLady]

I popped the 4.5 yr old the other day ..shocked both of us then she cried...i went home and felt bad she went to Dollywood

She'll probably have let it go long before you will.

 

[Marion Morrison]

We tend to parent the way we were raised.

I don't. I do precisely the opposite. I'm the oldest of nine kids. The state came in and separated all of the kids and put em in foster homes after years of being at the receiving end of travesties that few Americans could even imagine.

This didn't solve the problem, it only made the consequences worse, as some have since put themselves at the end of ropes in their older years.

It is frustrating though when people who don't understand the problem think they know how to "fix" other people's kids.

Yep.

In some ways, I also did the opposite--parts I really really really found cruel or unfair.

That's what my friend did. His dad used to beat him. He only stopped when my friend turned 16 and started fighting back. When we knew his dad was getting drunk, we'd take off and go fishing or out to the woods for hours.

 

[flewism]

Complete lack of discipline in their early years usually shows up very ugly in their school years and only manifest from there into more destructive behavior though out early adulthood until life slaps them down hard. I've seen this repeatedly and I'm fortunate that we did not have this issue with any of our children, but they were taught early what was expected of them and how to act to obtain their goals.

Any course of action now as a nine year old will be difficult and viewed by some as abuse. Might be best to just limit his access to your life. I have such and nephew but he is nearly 20 now. Still lives with mom, has never worked, never graduated high school, can't keep any job, sitting on his ass daily at mom's house bitching. Mom just lets it happen every day. This kid has ruled over his mom since he was 4 years old, seen plenty of therapists for over a decade until he refused to go any more and that was OK with mom.

 

[SweetSue92]

No one is remotely interested in listening to me, but Oppositional Defiant Disorder is not something you can fix with a belt or a paddle. It is not caused by lax parenting or over permissive parenting, either. It is a disorder in the child's ability to process his/her emotional load.

I'm reading and ODD often leads to what used to be called sociopathy or even psychopathy. In other word, psychopaths. These are kids who will on purpose find your buttons and push them.

For fun.

 

[SweetSue92]

What do you mean..."Good for him?"

Helicopter parenting is ruining a generation. It causes these problems with children. It turns the minto little narcissists and ultimately creates an adult narcissist and it causes a great deal of other problems in life. These kids grow up to be emotionally unstable, unable to be productive or self-sufficient without constant guidance, and not only that, they never move out, they end up afraid of living in the world without mom and dad their to protect them from every little bug or bee.

Let the them go outside play with a stick or something for a change. Allow them some semblance of independence. Kids don't get to do that stuff anymore.

Remember when someone would give you something, and you forgot to say "Thank you", and your mom would say, "What do you say?"

Snowflake parents don't even say "What do you say?" anymore. No. That's 'humiliating' to the child, see, it is not nice to correct a child in front of others.

This is where we are. Right. I could start writing now and not stop until today is tomorrow. I'm not kidding--as a teacher I've had a front row seat for this parenting train wreck and it has been very ugly.

To say the least

 

[SweetSue92]

No one is remotely interested in listening to me, but Oppositional Defiant Disorder is not something you can fix with a belt or a paddle. It is not caused by lax parenting or over permissive parenting, either. It is a disorder in the child's ability to process his/her emotional load.

It seems to me that ADHD and ODD, especially ODD can be incorrectly diagnosed when the situation arose that actually was the result of inappropriate parenting.

True, so can trauma symptoms be misdiagnosed as ADHD. Or, as you said, it could be a kid who has never been taught predictable rules and consequences (lazy parenting). It ain't easy to tease out which is which, I'm sure, but one would hope the professionals that gave the OP's nephew his diagnosis know what they are doing. A family practitioner might prescribe the meds but they would never make an ODD diagnosis themselves. It takes a child behavioral expert to do that, usually with a good deal of observation of the child in the home and school settings, time spent with the child, the parents, etc.

Here's a brain buster....

At what point do kids with trauma not get to inflict trauma on the rest of us.

In the real world, if you assault someone, the law does not care what your childhood was like.

In school, if you're traumatized, you can: kick, beat, hit, bite, throw things. run out of the school, choke, pull hair, sexually harass and all manner of things and NOTHING--and I mean NOTHING is done.

Everyone witnesses this. The other children do, of course, and that's not to mention the children who are not actually beat down. Teachers are regularly beat down. No one cares. Because, you know, the kids are traumatized, so if they want to beat the crap out of anyone else, who cares?

If we had any kind of decent media, they would be reporting this epidemic. But, they love them some Victims, and anyone traumatized is a Victim, so who cares if they actually, literally batter the heck out of everyone else?

 

[hjmick]

At some point does failing to apply actual order and discipline on this child become a form of abuse or neglect in its own right?

It is certainly abuse upon the rest of us... bunch of spoiled little shits most of them...

 

[jwoodie]

The virtues of a swat are largely ignored. Once or twice is all it usually takes to establish boundaries. To this day, my grown children laugh and joke about it.

 

[flewism]

At some point does failing to apply actual order and discipline on this child become a form of abuse or neglect in its own right?

It is certainly abuse upon the rest of us... bunch of spoiled little shits most of them...

As I stated earlier the best course of action is to eliminate them from your life. if you can't do that than reduce the presents as much as possible.

This course of action will reduce conflict and your stress and frustration. You must learn that somebody else's problems are not yours, especially if it is not wanted or others believe you are wrong in your approach or advise.

 

[Jackson]

I have a nine year old nephew who has significant discipline issues. Parents, grandparents, teachers, etc... he refuses to accept any form of authority over him. He’s been diagnosed as having Obsessive Defiance Disorder (ODD) and ADHD.

Nobody who has any authority over this kid will stand up to him. He’s allowed to make his own rules and throws a massive fit whenever any sort of discipline is even talked about. He curses and swears at his parents and literally ignores any limits imposed on him by anyone in authority.

At some point does failing to apply actual order and discipline on this child become a form of abuse or neglect in its own right? I’m not suggesting a need to get authorities involved, but st what point are these people doing this child a massive disservice with potentially lifelong consequences?

My dad had a cure for "Obsessive Defiance Disorder". It was the belt that he usually wore around his waist.

I think a swat is a good thing, but not to be overdone. If it used too much, the child begins to think he's in a helpless, hopeless situation. That in turn starts to affect the relationship with the child and the child turns inward so talking with him is difficukt.

I am all for "time outs" and taking fun stuff away from kids as punishment/discipline. However, a good ass whipping is in order if the kid is defiant in face of the other forms of discipline. Spare the rod, spoil the child.

Also, not all kids are "wired" the same. What works with one child may not work so well with another.

Anyone that hits a child in any way, shape, or form, under any circumstances should be publicly tortured to death over a period of at least a year.

God gave us each a place that was meant for a spanking. Spare the rod, spoil the child. My son got spanked when it was necessary and he's fine today.

 

[Jackson]

No one is remotely interested in listening to me, but Oppositional Defiant Disorder is not something you can fix with a belt or a paddle. It is not caused by lax parenting or over permissive parenting, either. It is a disorder in the child's ability to process his/her emotional load.

It seems to me that ADHD and ODD, especially ODD can be incorrectly diagnosed when the situation arose that actually was the result of inappropriate parenting.

True, so can trauma symptoms be misdiagnosed as ADHD. Or, as you said, it could be a kid who has never been taught predictable rules and consequences (lazy parenting). It ain't easy to tease out which is which, I'm sure, but one would hope the professionals that gave the OP's nephew his diagnosis know what they are doing. A family practitioner might prescribe the meds but they would never make an ODD diagnosis themselves. It takes a child behavioral expert to do that, usually with a good deal of observation of the child in the home and school settings, time spent with the child, the parents, etc.

Here's a brain buster....

At what point do kids with trauma not get to inflict trauma on the rest of us.

In the real world, if you assault someone, the law does not care what your childhood was like.

In school, if you're traumatized, you can: kick, beat, hit, bite, throw things. run out of the school, choke, pull hair, sexually harass and all manner of things and NOTHING--and I mean NOTHING is done.

Everyone witnesses this. The other children do, of course, and that's not to mention the children who are not actually beat down. Teachers are regularly beat down. No one cares. Because, you know, the kids are traumatized, so if they want to beat the crap out of anyone else, who cares?

If we had any kind of decent media, they would be reporting this epidemic. But, they love them some Victims, and anyone traumatized is a Victim, so who cares if they actually, literally batter the heck out of everyone else?

Sounds like you need a sabbatical and the schools need a few lawsuits to straighten up.

 

[initforme]

Imagine a classroom of kids with these issues and being a teacher who they refuse to listen too.

 

[Leo123]

I would look to

I have a nine year old nephew who has significant discipline issues. Parents, grandparents, teachers, etc... he refuses to accept any form of authority over him. He’s been diagnosed as having Obsessive Defiance Disorder (ODD) and ADHD.

Nobody who has any authority over this kid will stand up to him. He’s allowed to make his own rules and throws a massive fit whenever any sort of discipline is even talked about. He curses and swears at his parents and literally ignores any limits imposed on him by anyone in authority.

At some point does failing to apply actual order and discipline on this child become a form of abuse or neglect in its own right? I’m not suggesting a need to get authorities involved, but st what point are these people doing this child a massive disservice with potentially lifelong consequences?

I knew a kid like that, they called it Oppositional Defiance Disorder.

"Oppositional defiant disorder (ODD) is a type of behavior disorder. It is mostly diagnosed in childhood. Children with ODD are uncooperative, defiant, and hostile toward peers, parents, teachers, and other authority figures. They are more troubling to others than they are to themselves."

Oppositional Defiant Disorder (ODD) in Children

 

[MarathonMike]

I have a nine year old nephew who has significant discipline issues. Parents, grandparents, teachers, etc... he refuses to accept any form of authority over him. He’s been diagnosed as having Obsessive Defiance Disorder (ODD) and ADHD.

Nobody who has any authority over this kid will stand up to him. He’s allowed to make his own rules and throws a massive fit whenever any sort of discipline is even talked about. He curses and swears at his parents and literally ignores any limits imposed on him by anyone in authority.

At some point does failing to apply actual order and discipline on this child become a form of abuse or neglect in its own right? I’m not suggesting a need to get authorities involved, but st what point are these people doing this child a massive disservice with potentially lifelong consequences?

Your nephew seems to be an extreme example of what is really the norm. Parents give into their kids and get them cell phones when they are 6 or 7, allow them to play extremely violent video games for hours every day, it is not a pretty picture. Truth be told I wasn't much better as a parent being quite lenient with my kids. But later they got into sports and Karate and did well in school so there was some balance. I don't know what the answer is, parents don't want to be the bad guy and in general that has negative consequences.

 

[Jarlaxle]

I have a nine year old nephew who has significant discipline issues. Parents, grandparents, teachers, etc... he refuses to accept any form of authority over him. He’s been diagnosed as having Obsessive Defiance Disorder (ODD) and ADHD.

Nobody who has any authority over this kid will stand up to him. He’s allowed to make his own rules and throws a massive fit whenever any sort of discipline is even talked about. He curses and swears at his parents and literally ignores any limits imposed on him by anyone in authority.

At some point does failing to apply actual order and discipline on this child become a form of abuse or neglect in its own right? I’m not suggesting a need to get authorities involved, but st what point are these people doing this child a massive disservice with potentially lifelong consequences?

My dad had a cure for "Obsessive Defiance Disorder". It was the belt that he usually wore around his waist.

I think a swat is a good thing, but not to be overdone. If it used too much, the child begins to think he's in a helpless, hopeless situation. That in turn starts to affect the relationship with the child and the child turns inward so talking with him is difficukt.

I am all for "time outs" and taking fun stuff away from kids as punishment/discipline. However, a good ass whipping is in order if the kid is defiant in face of the other forms of discipline. Spare the rod, spoil the child.

Also, not all kids are "wired" the same. What works with one child may not work so well with another.

Anyone that hits a child in any way, shape, or form, under any circumstances should be publicly tortured to death over a period of at least a year.

God gave us each a place that was meant for a spanking. Spare the rod, spoil the child. My son got spanked when it was necessary and he's fine today.

Yeah, so am I. Well, aside from waking up screaming a few times a year. Hasn't happened since I was about 30, though.

Anyone that hits a child in any way, shape, or form, under any circumstances should be publicly tortured to death over a period of at least a year. The executioners/vivisectionists should be paid by the hour and the decibel, based on the screaming.

 

[SweetSue92]

No one is remotely interested in listening to me, but Oppositional Defiant Disorder is not something you can fix with a belt or a paddle. It is not caused by lax parenting or over permissive parenting, either. It is a disorder in the child's ability to process his/her emotional load.

It seems to me that ADHD and ODD, especially ODD can be incorrectly diagnosed when the situation arose that actually was the result of inappropriate parenting.

True, so can trauma symptoms be misdiagnosed as ADHD. Or, as you said, it could be a kid who has never been taught predictable rules and consequences (lazy parenting). It ain't easy to tease out which is which, I'm sure, but one would hope the professionals that gave the OP's nephew his diagnosis know what they are doing. A family practitioner might prescribe the meds but they would never make an ODD diagnosis themselves. It takes a child behavioral expert to do that, usually with a good deal of observation of the child in the home and school settings, time spent with the child, the parents, etc.

Here's a brain buster....

At what point do kids with trauma not get to inflict trauma on the rest of us.

In the real world, if you assault someone, the law does not care what your childhood was like.

In school, if you're traumatized, you can: kick, beat, hit, bite, throw things. run out of the school, choke, pull hair, sexually harass and all manner of things and NOTHING--and I mean NOTHING is done.

Everyone witnesses this. The other children do, of course, and that's not to mention the children who are not actually beat down. Teachers are regularly beat down. No one cares. Because, you know, the kids are traumatized, so if they want to beat the crap out of anyone else, who cares?

If we had any kind of decent media, they would be reporting this epidemic. But, they love them some Victims, and anyone traumatized is a Victim, so who cares if they actually, literally batter the heck out of everyone else?

Sounds like you need a sabbatical and the schools need a few lawsuits to straighten up.

Why would I need a sabbatical? Because I notice things and ask hard questions and don't have a savior complex?

Oh yeah, that's not allowed in education. That's why the public schools are in exactly the shape they're in, with gen ed kids and teachers getting regular beat downs and the "victims" being allowed to beat down whomever.

Don't ask questions or notice things, teachers. For pity's sake.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

I have a nine year old nephew who has significant discipline issues. Parents, grandparents, teachers, etc... he refuses to accept any form of authority over him. He’s been diagnosed as having Obsessive Defiance Disorder (ODD) and ADHD.

Nobody who has any authority over this kid will stand up to him. He’s allowed to make his own rules and throws a massive fit whenever any sort of discipline is even talked about. He curses and swears at his parents and literally ignores any limits imposed on him by anyone in authority.

At some point does failing to apply actual order and discipline on this child become a form of abuse or neglect in its own right? I’m not suggesting a need to get authorities involved, but st what point are these people doing this child a massive disservice with potentially lifelong consequences?

No.

In fact, the opposite could be the case, where inflicting ‘order’ and ‘discipline’ would be a form of abuse.

This is particularly true given the child has been diagnosed with cognitive disabilities – where his behavior is not the consequence of a lack of ‘order’ and ‘discipline’; indeed, seeking to compel ‘order’ and ‘discipline’ would do no good and likely cause harm.

 

[OldLady]

No one is remotely interested in listening to me, but Oppositional Defiant Disorder is not something you can fix with a belt or a paddle. It is not caused by lax parenting or over permissive parenting, either. It is a disorder in the child's ability to process his/her emotional load.

I'm reading and ODD often leads to what used to be called sociopathy or even psychopathy. In other word, psychopaths. These are kids who will on purpose find your buttons and push them.

For fun.

I remember a case I had, interviewed an eleven year old who had shot off his bb gun in the direction of a group of kids walking home from school. He swore he was aiming for his target in the backyard. They and we knew better. This kid had a long history of misbehavior at school and in the neighborhood. His gram, who was raising him, did every single thing she could--he was seeing a psychiatrist regularly and they were following every recommendation for getting him under control.
The chief of police had come with me on the interview. When after a couple of hours we left the house, he turned to me and said "He is going to be a psychopath." There was no question in his voice. He knew. It made my blood run cold, but he was right.
These things happen inside of some people; we don't really know why in a lot of cases.

 

[SweetSue92]

No one is remotely interested in listening to me, but Oppositional Defiant Disorder is not something you can fix with a belt or a paddle. It is not caused by lax parenting or over permissive parenting, either. It is a disorder in the child's ability to process his/her emotional load.

I'm reading and ODD often leads to what used to be called sociopathy or even psychopathy. In other word, psychopaths. These are kids who will on purpose find your buttons and push them.

For fun.

I remember a case I had, interviewed an eleven year old who had shot off his bb gun in the direction of a group of kids walking home from school. He swore he was aiming for his target in the backyard. They and we knew better. This kid had a long history of misbehavior at school and in the neighborhood. His gram, who was raising him, did every single thing she could--he was seeing a psychiatrist regularly and they were following every recommendation for getting him under control.
The chief of police had come with me on the interview. When after a couple of hours we left the house, he turned to me and said "He is going to be a psychopath." There was no question in his voice. He knew. It made my blood run cold, but he was right.
These things happen inside of some people; we don't really know why in a lot of cases.

Yep.

Many, many years ago now--way back in the mid-90s--I had a students whose eyes were just chilling. They were opaque. I'm not talking in color. There was nothing behind them, no "soul". I have rarely seen anything like it, not especially in a child.

By the time he was in 7th grade, he was killing animals and leaving them in people's yards. I probably don't have to tell you what kind of a sign that is. Last I knew, he was in juvenile hall. Than I lost track.

Evil exists, and it is real. Cops will tell you.