Calling Out Blues Man: The First Cause must be Eternal

[ding]

And if don't agree that there is a requirement for a first cause?

then what?

We are at an impasse once again

You're running from your entire argument that the first cause is this thing called spirit and that the only things that can exist in this universe or outside this universe are matter energy and spirit.

yet you have no way of knowing what if anything exists outside this universe because we are incapable of seeing far enough back in time to know what happened before this universe came to be.

So i can just as easily say the universe caused itself as you can say something else caused the universe

and once again we are at an impasse.

You want to lead this int an Ah Hah you have to admit god exists and you can't and that bugs the shit out of you.

Everything has requirements. It's part of the definition of what something is. What conditions do you believe a first cause must meet?

 

[ding]

And if I don't see that as a requirement?

You are trying to apply what you see in this universe to things that are not of this universe

So in your world anything can be a first cause. A frog could be a first cause?

 

[Blues Man]

Everything has requirements. It's part of the definition of what something is. What conditions do you believe a first cause must meet?

Here we go again

What if I do not accept your assumptions you base your argument on.

What can't this universe itself be the first cause?

Why is it a requirement that some other thing be the causa sui?

 

[ding]

We are at an impasse once again

No, we are not. You are afraid to begin the discussion.

 

[Blues Man]

So in your world anything can be a first cause. A frog could be a first cause?

Are the the first cause of your thoughts?

 

[ding]

Here we go again

What if I do not accept your assumptions you base your argument on.

What can't this universe itself be the first cause?

Why is it a requirement that some other thing be the causa sui?

What conditions do you believe a first cause must meet to be a first cause?

 

[ding]

What can't this universe itself be the first cause?

It could. But before determining that you would need to establish the condition or requirement for something to be considered a first cause. Then you could determine if this universe met those conditions.

 

[ding]

Are the the first cause of your thoughts?

Think existence. What was the first cause for existence?

 

[Blues Man]

No, we are not. You are afraid to begin the discussion.

Wrong.

You are telling me I have to accept your assumptions that your causa sui is the cause of this universe and that it must exist somewhere beyond this universe.

I do not accept your assumptions

 

[ding]

What if I do not accept your assumptions you base your argument on.

Then you Should be able to use logic to explain why you don't accept them.

 

[Blues Man]

It could. But before determining that you would need to establish the condition or requirement for something to be considered a first cause. Then you could determine if this universe met those conditions.

All those conditions are nothing but conjecture and can be anything you want them to be.

You will not accept that. You actually believe you can know what happened before the universe existed and you cannot

 

[ding]

Why is it a requirement that some other thing be the causa sui?

Because how else are you going to define it or explain why it isn't?

 

[ding]

All those conditions are nothing but conjecture and can be anything you want them to be.

You will not accept that. You actually believe you can know what happened before the universe existed and you cannot

Then you should be able to use logic to explain why it is wrong.

 

[Blues Man]

Then you Should be able to use logic to explain why you don't accept them.

I have.

There is no reason for me to accept your assumptions that there is only matter energy and spirit because there is no way you can say that with any certainty.

 

[Blues Man]

Because how else are you going to define it or explain why it isn't?

So make up conditions to prove what you want to prove then then require everyone to agree with your made up conditions.

 

[ding]

I have.

No. You haven't. Show me.

There is no reason for me to accept your assumptions that there is only matter energy and spirit because there is no way you can say that with any cetainty.

That's the whole point of the exercise. Which you are dodging.

 

[ding]

So make up conditions to prove what you want to prove then then require everyone to agree with your made up conditions.

What are your conditions for something to be considered to be the first cause of existence?

 

[Blues Man]

No. You haven't. Show me.


That's the whole point of the exercise. Which you are dodging.

You haven't proven there is a causa sui outside of this universe

 

[ding]

You haven't proven there is a causa sui outside of this universe

What are your conditions for something to be considered the first cause of existence?

 

[Blues Man]

You haven't proven there is a causa sui outside of this universe

What are your conditions for something to be considered to be the first cause of existence?

I never claimed to know have I?

I said we are arguing the unknowable but you won't accept.

If you say there is a causa sui outside of this universe then you first have to prove there is actually an outside of this universe and have you done that?