BREAKING: U.S. Officials Have Declassified List Of Obama Officials Who Were Involved In ‘Unmasking’ General Flynn

[colfax_m]

but that would pretty much be like every election before and what we do to others around the world on an all too regular basis

I always challenge this assertion. I don’t see this as a normal thing. Can you remember the last time Russia jacked with our election?

Russia (then USSR) has a long history of attempting to interfere with our democratic process (with the aim of showing that democracy is inherently inferior), but you are right - this level of interference, on a multinational platform, is unprecedented.

and other than hacking the DNC, just what did they do?

i know of facebook ads. what else?

Is hacking the DNC and Podesta, with the subsequent release of the info, not significant enough? It was a major event during the campaign.

1. Who hacked the DNC and Podesta ?

2. Who released the info or how was it released ?

3. Was the info released steeped in lies or truth ?

4. What was the response by the DNC and Podesta for it's info being hacked, and subsequently that information being released ?

5. How did the hackers or anyone know of such information ?

6. Was the information first obtained by insiders who had an ax to grind, and it's information location then given over to the hackers ?

Where is all this information or the answers to it all now ? Is there so much information out there, that the scene has been flooded, and the DNC has been enjoying the chaos in it all by assigning blame or using it politically in order to regain power somehow ?

The DNC blaming Trump for everything because they hate him, and hate him for spurious reasons unrelated, seems to be grounded in what should be called "operation political chaos" by them, where as you gather up negative information in what ever form it takes or it comes in, and then attempt to apply it politically for nefarious reasons, and/or for other reasons not pertaining to the need to get to the bottom of anything, but just use it for future outcomes in hopes to sway future elections.

All that information is in the Mueller report. Russia hacked the DNC and Podesta. Russia released the hacked information. The DNC hired CrowdStrike to clean out their network. Hackers used phishing to gain access to the network. It was not some “inside job”.

Oh so Russia just happened to know that the DNC was dirty, and so they were assured that they could gain success on hurting their chances by hacking and releasing dirt on them ? Out of thin air, the Russians targeted the DNC without any help from inside the workings of the DNC ??

Nothing dirty in the hacks, just embarrassing.
The Russians are opportunistic and have attempted to hack a great many things, often successfully.

New Russian Hacking Targeted Republican Groups, Microsoft Says (Published 2018)

Microsoft was surprised not that recent “spear phishing” attempts had occurred, but that they targeted traditional conservative think tanks. Those groups have been critical of Russia.

www.nytimes.com

Russia Targeted Election Systems in All 50 States, Report Finds (Published 2019)

A Senate panel documented an effort largely undetected by state and federal officials at the time. But its report was so heavily redacted that key lessons for 2020 were blacked out.

www.nytimes.com

Merkel cites ‘hard evidence’ Russian hackers targeted her

German chancellor says improving ties with Moscow is challenging following a hacking attempt and a murder in Berlin.

www.aljazeera.com

You are like an ostrich with it head in the sand.

The Democrats used unverified Russian propaganda (Steele Dossier) to illegally obtain a FISA warrant in order to spy on the Trump campaign and, after that, Trump's Presidential transition team. It wasn't the Russians interfering with the election, it was the DNC attempting an old fashioned coup.

How do you get from FISA warrant on Carter Page to old fashioned coup? Where’s the connection between those two things?

i'm still looking to find out other than "potentially / likely" hacking the DNC and facebook ads, what russia did to interfere in our elections and how that was so much more than "normal" interfering activity.

So what crimes did Russia commit other than the totally illegal things they did to interfere in our election? That doesn’t sound like a very serious question. Read the Muller report volume one. There was a little more along the lines of troll farms and fake grassroots but the most sensational activity was hacking and dumping of emails. That’s enough. It was a major story during the campaign. Trump designed campaign strategy around the story which is why they were seeking coordination with Wikileaks.

I don’t think there is “normal” interfering. As your link pointed out, Russia really doesn’t interfere in our elections.

Then there's Hillary bleach bitting, destroying evidence left and right, servers in bathroom's, but nothing at all to see here folks, nothing at all. It was the Russians I tell ya, the Russians are coming, the Russians are coming.

Hillary didn’t destroy evidence. Y’all got your panties in a wad because she used the wrong email address acting like it was the end of the world or something.

You act like her doing what she did was an accident.

As soon as she was asked for the mail, games started. A secretary of state running their own server should know gov mail retention policy and she did not follow it.

There seems to me to be an impression that her email server was used to cover up some vast criminal conspiracy. The evidence to support that just isn’t there.

well we would have a better idea if that were the case if she has not pretty much destroyed the physical nature of her server to keep anyone from knowing what was on there.

are you trying to tell me her actions after being asked for the mail was not suspicious?

i have zero idea if she did it to cover something up because the data necessary to determine that was removed by said person. i would have a problem with this regardless of who did it.

I’m just saying people act like it’s the end of the world because of shoddy document retention policy.

 

[iceberg]

yes. i did. and we agreed it's been happening since WW2 more or less in some fashion.

Nope. No we did not. We did not agree. You’re all over the place. At first you say this is no different than what they do ever election. Then you say we have no idea what they do every election. Now you’re back to saying it’s been happening since WW2 “more or less”.

Pick a lane.

We have no evidence of any involvement like this before. That’s what we can say. It’s justifiable because the attempts of Russian influence have failed miserably for decades until now.

i have never said it's no different than what they have done.

i have said yes they meddled. i have worked to define "meddling" as "potentially/likely hacking the DNC server" and $100k in facebook ads. i continue to ask "what else" and i get shit like "well they hacked WIKI" OF WHICH anyone can do. it's open for anyone to edit.

so - you and coyote say this is MORE than they have done in the past.

what i have asked since then and continue to ask are examples of past meddling. you are not keeping up with what i am saying and now are mischaracterizing what i am after. this is either because for some strange reason the concept of a baseline isn't registering or you just refuse to answer the question.

now in your own post here - you say:
"We have no evidence of any involvement like this before. That’s what we can say. It’s justifiable because the attempts of Russian influence have failed miserably for decades until now."

what influence have they tried for decades that failed?

you can't say some activity increased if you have no baseline for what is normal activity.

it's not a difficult question but as usual we get sidetracked when trying to define the details that we are basing our opinions on.

so - give me failed examples of how russia tried to influence our elections previous to 2016.

you either can, or cannot. continued questions i'll simply take as cannot. if we cannot establish a baseline you cannot say an activity increased. physics, not me.

 

[iceberg]

but that would pretty much be like every election before and what we do to others around the world on an all too regular basis

I always challenge this assertion. I don’t see this as a normal thing. Can you remember the last time Russia jacked with our election?

Russia (then USSR) has a long history of attempting to interfere with our democratic process (with the aim of showing that democracy is inherently inferior), but you are right - this level of interference, on a multinational platform, is unprecedented.

and other than hacking the DNC, just what did they do?

i know of facebook ads. what else?

Is hacking the DNC and Podesta, with the subsequent release of the info, not significant enough? It was a major event during the campaign.

1. Who hacked the DNC and Podesta ?

2. Who released the info or how was it released ?

3. Was the info released steeped in lies or truth ?

4. What was the response by the DNC and Podesta for it's info being hacked, and subsequently that information being released ?

5. How did the hackers or anyone know of such information ?

6. Was the information first obtained by insiders who had an ax to grind, and it's information location then given over to the hackers ?

Where is all this information or the answers to it all now ? Is there so much information out there, that the scene has been flooded, and the DNC has been enjoying the chaos in it all by assigning blame or using it politically in order to regain power somehow ?

The DNC blaming Trump for everything because they hate him, and hate him for spurious reasons unrelated, seems to be grounded in what should be called "operation political chaos" by them, where as you gather up negative information in what ever form it takes or it comes in, and then attempt to apply it politically for nefarious reasons, and/or for other reasons not pertaining to the need to get to the bottom of anything, but just use it for future outcomes in hopes to sway future elections.

All that information is in the Mueller report. Russia hacked the DNC and Podesta. Russia released the hacked information. The DNC hired CrowdStrike to clean out their network. Hackers used phishing to gain access to the network. It was not some “inside job”.

Oh so Russia just happened to know that the DNC was dirty, and so they were assured that they could gain success on hurting their chances by hacking and releasing dirt on them ? Out of thin air, the Russians targeted the DNC without any help from inside the workings of the DNC ??

Nothing dirty in the hacks, just embarrassing.
The Russians are opportunistic and have attempted to hack a great many things, often successfully.

New Russian Hacking Targeted Republican Groups, Microsoft Says (Published 2018)

Microsoft was surprised not that recent “spear phishing” attempts had occurred, but that they targeted traditional conservative think tanks. Those groups have been critical of Russia.

www.nytimes.com

Russia Targeted Election Systems in All 50 States, Report Finds (Published 2019)

A Senate panel documented an effort largely undetected by state and federal officials at the time. But its report was so heavily redacted that key lessons for 2020 were blacked out.

www.nytimes.com

Merkel cites ‘hard evidence’ Russian hackers targeted her

German chancellor says improving ties with Moscow is challenging following a hacking attempt and a murder in Berlin.

www.aljazeera.com

You are like an ostrich with it head in the sand.

The Democrats used unverified Russian propaganda (Steele Dossier) to illegally obtain a FISA warrant in order to spy on the Trump campaign and, after that, Trump's Presidential transition team. It wasn't the Russians interfering with the election, it was the DNC attempting an old fashioned coup.

How do you get from FISA warrant on Carter Page to old fashioned coup? Where’s the connection between those two things?

i'm still looking to find out other than "potentially / likely" hacking the DNC and facebook ads, what russia did to interfere in our elections and how that was so much more than "normal" interfering activity.

So what crimes did Russia commit other than the totally illegal things they did to interfere in our election? That doesn’t sound like a very serious question. Read the Muller report volume one. There was a little more along the lines of troll farms and fake grassroots but the most sensational activity was hacking and dumping of emails. That’s enough. It was a major story during the campaign. Trump designed campaign strategy around the story which is why they were seeking coordination with Wikileaks.

I don’t think there is “normal” interfering. As your link pointed out, Russia really doesn’t interfere in our elections.

Then there's Hillary bleach bitting, destroying evidence left and right, servers in bathroom's, but nothing at all to see here folks, nothing at all. It was the Russians I tell ya, the Russians are coming, the Russians are coming.

Hillary didn’t destroy evidence. Y’all got your panties in a wad because she used the wrong email address acting like it was the end of the world or something.

You act like her doing what she did was an accident.

As soon as she was asked for the mail, games started. A secretary of state running their own server should know gov mail retention policy and she did not follow it.

There seems to me to be an impression that her email server was used to cover up some vast criminal conspiracy. The evidence to support that just isn’t there.

well we would have a better idea if that were the case if she has not pretty much destroyed the physical nature of her server to keep anyone from knowing what was on there.

are you trying to tell me her actions after being asked for the mail was not suspicious?

i have zero idea if she did it to cover something up because the data necessary to determine that was removed by said person. i would have a problem with this regardless of who did it.

I’m just saying people act like it’s the end of the world because of shoddy document retention policy.

how she handled it brought her own suspicion into it.

to me in a nutshell.
Oh, you have your own e-mail server? please give us all your work mail.

and that took months and months and in that time we see trying to alter header info, we see retention policies changed, we see hillary say "oh that change was made before the request but was forgotten" but no proof it ever was made before the request.

from a technical standpoint, you export the PST, secure it on a portable drive and send it over. so something that should from a tech standpoint take a day, MAYBE 2, took months with a lot of questionable activity along the way.

if from day 1 she CC'd her work e-mail address, there would be no cause for alarm cause they would have everything that went through her private server OF WHICH the gov had zero insight into.

she brought it on herself.

 

[Coyote]

but that would pretty much be like every election before and what we do to others around the world on an all too regular basis

I always challenge this assertion. I don’t see this as a normal thing. Can you remember the last time Russia jacked with our election?

Russia (then USSR) has a long history of attempting to interfere with our democratic process (with the aim of showing that democracy is inherently inferior), but you are right - this level of interference, on a multinational platform, is unprecedented.

and other than hacking the DNC, just what did they do?

i know of facebook ads. what else?

Is hacking the DNC and Podesta, with the subsequent release of the info, not significant enough? It was a major event during the campaign.

1. Who hacked the DNC and Podesta ?

2. Who released the info or how was it released ?

3. Was the info released steeped in lies or truth ?

4. What was the response by the DNC and Podesta for it's info being hacked, and subsequently that information being released ?

5. How did the hackers or anyone know of such information ?

6. Was the information first obtained by insiders who had an ax to grind, and it's information location then given over to the hackers ?

Where is all this information or the answers to it all now ? Is there so much information out there, that the scene has been flooded, and the DNC has been enjoying the chaos in it all by assigning blame or using it politically in order to regain power somehow ?

The DNC blaming Trump for everything because they hate him, and hate him for spurious reasons unrelated, seems to be grounded in what should be called "operation political chaos" by them, where as you gather up negative information in what ever form it takes or it comes in, and then attempt to apply it politically for nefarious reasons, and/or for other reasons not pertaining to the need to get to the bottom of anything, but just use it for future outcomes in hopes to sway future elections.

All that information is in the Mueller report. Russia hacked the DNC and Podesta. Russia released the hacked information. The DNC hired CrowdStrike to clean out their network. Hackers used phishing to gain access to the network. It was not some “inside job”.

Oh so Russia just happened to know that the DNC was dirty, and so they were assured that they could gain success on hurting their chances by hacking and releasing dirt on them ? Out of thin air, the Russians targeted the DNC without any help from inside the workings of the DNC ??

Nothing dirty in the hacks, just embarrassing.
The Russians are opportunistic and have attempted to hack a great many things, often successfully.

New Russian Hacking Targeted Republican Groups, Microsoft Says (Published 2018)

Microsoft was surprised not that recent “spear phishing” attempts had occurred, but that they targeted traditional conservative think tanks. Those groups have been critical of Russia.

www.nytimes.com

Russia Targeted Election Systems in All 50 States, Report Finds (Published 2019)

A Senate panel documented an effort largely undetected by state and federal officials at the time. But its report was so heavily redacted that key lessons for 2020 were blacked out.

www.nytimes.com

Merkel cites ‘hard evidence’ Russian hackers targeted her

German chancellor says improving ties with Moscow is challenging following a hacking attempt and a murder in Berlin.

www.aljazeera.com

You are like an ostrich with it head in the sand.

The Democrats used unverified Russian propaganda (Steele Dossier) to illegally obtain a FISA warrant in order to spy on the Trump campaign and, after that, Trump's Presidential transition team. It wasn't the Russians interfering with the election, it was the DNC attempting an old fashioned coup.

How do you get from FISA warrant on Carter Page to old fashioned coup? Where’s the connection between those two things?

i'm still looking to find out other than "potentially / likely" hacking the DNC and facebook ads, what russia did to interfere in our elections and how that was so much more than "normal" interfering activity.

I think there are factors here not being considered.

1. They have always attempted this sort of mischief with the goal of creating chaos and division, so this is nothing new.

2. The tools available and the playing field are drastically different. By playingfield, I mean the audience they can now reach and tbe divides they can exploit. The number of people connected to the internet has increased exponentially, far ahead of our ability to handle the information. One example I remember reading about involved a pro_white demonstration coordinated by an online group. There was a counter demonstration also organized. Both to demonstrate in the same are. Both tracing back to Russian organizers. Sothat is on, non po,itical example....how much more is out there? Each one exploiting and magnifying our divides and our trust in our democratic institutions.

you're telling me what they could do.
you're telling me people fall for stupid crap when it pits one extreme side against another. 100% agreed.

but i want to know specifically what russia did to interfere in our election that makes you and others say this is MORE than normal?

what is normal and how is this more? we can either answer that or write long posts that talk about how people bitch at each other online OF WHICH everyone in here is already well aware.

Well, I would say for a starter, their hacking of DNC and collaboration with wikileaksto strategically releases it is one example. I would also add their attempted hacks at voter registration and state electoral software. That wasn’t successful yet, but it certainly ups the ante.

Is there an article that states all their 2016 activity? Wiki is anyone can edit so not sure that applies here.

Wiki also sources,.

I still don't get a baseline of past activity we compare to. In order to say this is more than usual, we need to define "usual"

well...Wikipedia gives us the best sense of a timeline:Timeline of Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections - Wikipedia

I thought Russia hacked wiki for disinformation. Now you trust them as a source?

Sources are required and if weak it's noted. You can always check the sources and decide for yourself. Do you have any other excuses for not reviewing it's timeline?

 

[Coyote]

but that would pretty much be like every election before and what we do to others around the world on an all too regular basis

I always challenge this assertion. I don’t see this as a normal thing. Can you remember the last time Russia jacked with our election?

Russia (then USSR) has a long history of attempting to interfere with our democratic process (with the aim of showing that democracy is inherently inferior), but you are right - this level of interference, on a multinational platform, is unprecedented.

and other than hacking the DNC, just what did they do?

i know of facebook ads. what else?

Is hacking the DNC and Podesta, with the subsequent release of the info, not significant enough? It was a major event during the campaign.

1. Who hacked the DNC and Podesta ?

2. Who released the info or how was it released ?

3. Was the info released steeped in lies or truth ?

4. What was the response by the DNC and Podesta for it's info being hacked, and subsequently that information being released ?

5. How did the hackers or anyone know of such information ?

6. Was the information first obtained by insiders who had an ax to grind, and it's information location then given over to the hackers ?

Where is all this information or the answers to it all now ? Is there so much information out there, that the scene has been flooded, and the DNC has been enjoying the chaos in it all by assigning blame or using it politically in order to regain power somehow ?

The DNC blaming Trump for everything because they hate him, and hate him for spurious reasons unrelated, seems to be grounded in what should be called "operation political chaos" by them, where as you gather up negative information in what ever form it takes or it comes in, and then attempt to apply it politically for nefarious reasons, and/or for other reasons not pertaining to the need to get to the bottom of anything, but just use it for future outcomes in hopes to sway future elections.

All that information is in the Mueller report. Russia hacked the DNC and Podesta. Russia released the hacked information. The DNC hired CrowdStrike to clean out their network. Hackers used phishing to gain access to the network. It was not some “inside job”.

Oh so Russia just happened to know that the DNC was dirty, and so they were assured that they could gain success on hurting their chances by hacking and releasing dirt on them ? Out of thin air, the Russians targeted the DNC without any help from inside the workings of the DNC ??

Nothing dirty in the hacks, just embarrassing.
The Russians are opportunistic and have attempted to hack a great many things, often successfully.

New Russian Hacking Targeted Republican Groups, Microsoft Says (Published 2018)

Microsoft was surprised not that recent “spear phishing” attempts had occurred, but that they targeted traditional conservative think tanks. Those groups have been critical of Russia.

www.nytimes.com

Russia Targeted Election Systems in All 50 States, Report Finds (Published 2019)

A Senate panel documented an effort largely undetected by state and federal officials at the time. But its report was so heavily redacted that key lessons for 2020 were blacked out.

www.nytimes.com

Merkel cites ‘hard evidence’ Russian hackers targeted her

German chancellor says improving ties with Moscow is challenging following a hacking attempt and a murder in Berlin.

www.aljazeera.com

You are like an ostrich with it head in the sand.

The Democrats used unverified Russian propaganda (Steele Dossier) to illegally obtain a FISA warrant in order to spy on the Trump campaign and, after that, Trump's Presidential transition team. It wasn't the Russians interfering with the election, it was the DNC attempting an old fashioned coup.

How do you get from FISA warrant on Carter Page to old fashioned coup? Where’s the connection between those two things?

i'm still looking to find out other than "potentially / likely" hacking the DNC and facebook ads, what russia did to interfere in our elections and how that was so much more than "normal" interfering activity.

So what crimes did Russia commit other than the totally illegal things they did to interfere in our election? That doesn’t sound like a very serious question. Read the Muller report volume one. There was a little more along the lines of troll farms and fake grassroots but the most sensational activity was hacking and dumping of emails. That’s enough. It was a major story during the campaign. Trump designed campaign strategy around the story which is why they were seeking coordination with Wikileaks.

I don’t think there is “normal” interfering. As your link pointed out, Russia really doesn’t interfere in our elections.

it's a very serious question since we keep referring to these crimes being linked to trump somehow. if we're going to ask why is one unmasking different than the other so we can get to the details, that's fine. i'm in.

but i want to know why whatever russia did was a "vast escalation" over past interferances.

what did they do before?
hacking DNC / $100k facebook ads - is this it that we're calling a mass escalation in interferance?

i want to be sure of what we are calling escalated crimes by russia before i agree they are in fact worse than past actions.

Hacking the DNC and the emails produced was headline news for weeks. It was one of the major stories during the campaign.

Yes. It was a huge escalation.

Huge escalation that didn't change not one American vote, but hey gotta use something to hide the broken Democrat party who decided that it was better to aggressively pursue policies that the American people hated and rebuked, otherwise instead of being the party of John Kennedy back in the day (ask not what your nation can do for you, but instead ask what you can do for your nation).

How do you know the release of that information didn’t change one American vote? Seems like that’s an unknowable statement. What we do know is that Trump and his team were elated at the hacking and dumping, used them as part of their campaign and it was a major story during the campaign.

Exactly - there is no quantifiable way of knowing what the effect was, but it was certainly in the news cycle big time.

 

[iceberg]

but that would pretty much be like every election before and what we do to others around the world on an all too regular basis

I always challenge this assertion. I don’t see this as a normal thing. Can you remember the last time Russia jacked with our election?

Russia (then USSR) has a long history of attempting to interfere with our democratic process (with the aim of showing that democracy is inherently inferior), but you are right - this level of interference, on a multinational platform, is unprecedented.

and other than hacking the DNC, just what did they do?

i know of facebook ads. what else?

Is hacking the DNC and Podesta, with the subsequent release of the info, not significant enough? It was a major event during the campaign.

1. Who hacked the DNC and Podesta ?

2. Who released the info or how was it released ?

3. Was the info released steeped in lies or truth ?

4. What was the response by the DNC and Podesta for it's info being hacked, and subsequently that information being released ?

5. How did the hackers or anyone know of such information ?

6. Was the information first obtained by insiders who had an ax to grind, and it's information location then given over to the hackers ?

Where is all this information or the answers to it all now ? Is there so much information out there, that the scene has been flooded, and the DNC has been enjoying the chaos in it all by assigning blame or using it politically in order to regain power somehow ?

The DNC blaming Trump for everything because they hate him, and hate him for spurious reasons unrelated, seems to be grounded in what should be called "operation political chaos" by them, where as you gather up negative information in what ever form it takes or it comes in, and then attempt to apply it politically for nefarious reasons, and/or for other reasons not pertaining to the need to get to the bottom of anything, but just use it for future outcomes in hopes to sway future elections.

All that information is in the Mueller report. Russia hacked the DNC and Podesta. Russia released the hacked information. The DNC hired CrowdStrike to clean out their network. Hackers used phishing to gain access to the network. It was not some “inside job”.

Oh so Russia just happened to know that the DNC was dirty, and so they were assured that they could gain success on hurting their chances by hacking and releasing dirt on them ? Out of thin air, the Russians targeted the DNC without any help from inside the workings of the DNC ??

Nothing dirty in the hacks, just embarrassing.
The Russians are opportunistic and have attempted to hack a great many things, often successfully.

New Russian Hacking Targeted Republican Groups, Microsoft Says (Published 2018)

Microsoft was surprised not that recent “spear phishing” attempts had occurred, but that they targeted traditional conservative think tanks. Those groups have been critical of Russia.

www.nytimes.com

Russia Targeted Election Systems in All 50 States, Report Finds (Published 2019)

A Senate panel documented an effort largely undetected by state and federal officials at the time. But its report was so heavily redacted that key lessons for 2020 were blacked out.

www.nytimes.com

Merkel cites ‘hard evidence’ Russian hackers targeted her

German chancellor says improving ties with Moscow is challenging following a hacking attempt and a murder in Berlin.

www.aljazeera.com

You are like an ostrich with it head in the sand.

The Democrats used unverified Russian propaganda (Steele Dossier) to illegally obtain a FISA warrant in order to spy on the Trump campaign and, after that, Trump's Presidential transition team. It wasn't the Russians interfering with the election, it was the DNC attempting an old fashioned coup.

How do you get from FISA warrant on Carter Page to old fashioned coup? Where’s the connection between those two things?

i'm still looking to find out other than "potentially / likely" hacking the DNC and facebook ads, what russia did to interfere in our elections and how that was so much more than "normal" interfering activity.

I think there are factors here not being considered.

1. They have always attempted this sort of mischief with the goal of creating chaos and division, so this is nothing new.

2. The tools available and the playing field are drastically different. By playingfield, I mean the audience they can now reach and tbe divides they can exploit. The number of people connected to the internet has increased exponentially, far ahead of our ability to handle the information. One example I remember reading about involved a pro_white demonstration coordinated by an online group. There was a counter demonstration also organized. Both to demonstrate in the same are. Both tracing back to Russian organizers. Sothat is on, non po,itical example....how much more is out there? Each one exploiting and magnifying our divides and our trust in our democratic institutions.

you're telling me what they could do.
you're telling me people fall for stupid crap when it pits one extreme side against another. 100% agreed.

but i want to know specifically what russia did to interfere in our election that makes you and others say this is MORE than normal?

what is normal and how is this more? we can either answer that or write long posts that talk about how people bitch at each other online OF WHICH everyone in here is already well aware.

Well, I would say for a starter, their hacking of DNC and collaboration with wikileaksto strategically releases it is one example. I would also add their attempted hacks at voter registration and state electoral software. That wasn’t successful yet, but it certainly ups the ante.

Is there an article that states all their 2016 activity? Wiki is anyone can edit so not sure that applies here.

Wiki also sources,.

I still don't get a baseline of past activity we compare to. In order to say this is more than usual, we need to define "usual"

well...Wikipedia gives us the best sense of a timeline:Timeline of Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections - Wikipedia

I thought Russia hacked wiki for disinformation. Now you trust them as a source?

Sources are required and if weak it's noted. You can always check the sources and decide for yourself. Do you have any other excuses for not reviewing it's timeline?

Who says I didn't review it? You are again making assumptions as to my viewpoint and what I am saying then ask me to defend shit I never said.

I simply said in one post you say Russia hacked wiki, in another post you say here look at wiki for Russian timeliness. You don't find that ironic?

Now again one of my continued issues with you is you make assumptions on how I think and feel and reply as lf those are true. How long would you tolerate my doing this to you?

 

[iceberg]

but that would pretty much be like every election before and what we do to others around the world on an all too regular basis

I always challenge this assertion. I don’t see this as a normal thing. Can you remember the last time Russia jacked with our election?

Russia (then USSR) has a long history of attempting to interfere with our democratic process (with the aim of showing that democracy is inherently inferior), but you are right - this level of interference, on a multinational platform, is unprecedented.

and other than hacking the DNC, just what did they do?

i know of facebook ads. what else?

Is hacking the DNC and Podesta, with the subsequent release of the info, not significant enough? It was a major event during the campaign.

1. Who hacked the DNC and Podesta ?

2. Who released the info or how was it released ?

3. Was the info released steeped in lies or truth ?

4. What was the response by the DNC and Podesta for it's info being hacked, and subsequently that information being released ?

5. How did the hackers or anyone know of such information ?

6. Was the information first obtained by insiders who had an ax to grind, and it's information location then given over to the hackers ?

Where is all this information or the answers to it all now ? Is there so much information out there, that the scene has been flooded, and the DNC has been enjoying the chaos in it all by assigning blame or using it politically in order to regain power somehow ?

The DNC blaming Trump for everything because they hate him, and hate him for spurious reasons unrelated, seems to be grounded in what should be called "operation political chaos" by them, where as you gather up negative information in what ever form it takes or it comes in, and then attempt to apply it politically for nefarious reasons, and/or for other reasons not pertaining to the need to get to the bottom of anything, but just use it for future outcomes in hopes to sway future elections.

All that information is in the Mueller report. Russia hacked the DNC and Podesta. Russia released the hacked information. The DNC hired CrowdStrike to clean out their network. Hackers used phishing to gain access to the network. It was not some “inside job”.

Oh so Russia just happened to know that the DNC was dirty, and so they were assured that they could gain success on hurting their chances by hacking and releasing dirt on them ? Out of thin air, the Russians targeted the DNC without any help from inside the workings of the DNC ??

Nothing dirty in the hacks, just embarrassing.
The Russians are opportunistic and have attempted to hack a great many things, often successfully.

New Russian Hacking Targeted Republican Groups, Microsoft Says (Published 2018)

Microsoft was surprised not that recent “spear phishing” attempts had occurred, but that they targeted traditional conservative think tanks. Those groups have been critical of Russia.

www.nytimes.com

Russia Targeted Election Systems in All 50 States, Report Finds (Published 2019)

A Senate panel documented an effort largely undetected by state and federal officials at the time. But its report was so heavily redacted that key lessons for 2020 were blacked out.

www.nytimes.com

Merkel cites ‘hard evidence’ Russian hackers targeted her

German chancellor says improving ties with Moscow is challenging following a hacking attempt and a murder in Berlin.

www.aljazeera.com

You are like an ostrich with it head in the sand.

The Democrats used unverified Russian propaganda (Steele Dossier) to illegally obtain a FISA warrant in order to spy on the Trump campaign and, after that, Trump's Presidential transition team. It wasn't the Russians interfering with the election, it was the DNC attempting an old fashioned coup.

How do you get from FISA warrant on Carter Page to old fashioned coup? Where’s the connection between those two things?

i'm still looking to find out other than "potentially / likely" hacking the DNC and facebook ads, what russia did to interfere in our elections and how that was so much more than "normal" interfering activity.

So what crimes did Russia commit other than the totally illegal things they did to interfere in our election? That doesn’t sound like a very serious question. Read the Muller report volume one. There was a little more along the lines of troll farms and fake grassroots but the most sensational activity was hacking and dumping of emails. That’s enough. It was a major story during the campaign. Trump designed campaign strategy around the story which is why they were seeking coordination with Wikileaks.

I don’t think there is “normal” interfering. As your link pointed out, Russia really doesn’t interfere in our elections.

it's a very serious question since we keep referring to these crimes being linked to trump somehow. if we're going to ask why is one unmasking different than the other so we can get to the details, that's fine. i'm in.

but i want to know why whatever russia did was a "vast escalation" over past interferances.

what did they do before?
hacking DNC / $100k facebook ads - is this it that we're calling a mass escalation in interferance?

i want to be sure of what we are calling escalated crimes by russia before i agree they are in fact worse than past actions.

Hacking the DNC and the emails produced was headline news for weeks. It was one of the major stories during the campaign.

Yes. It was a huge escalation.

Huge escalation that didn't change not one American vote, but hey gotta use something to hide the broken Democrat party who decided that it was better to aggressively pursue policies that the American people hated and rebuked, otherwise instead of being the party of John Kennedy back in the day (ask not what your nation can do for you, but instead ask what you can do for your nation).

How do you know the release of that information didn’t change one American vote? Seems like that’s an unknowable statement. What we do know is that Trump and his team were elated at the hacking and dumping, used them as part of their campaign and it was a major story during the campaign.

Exactly - there is no quantifiable way of knowing what the effect was, but it was certainly in the news cycle big time.

If there is no way to quantify it, then stop saying their actions made a difference at all.

 

[colfax_m]

but that would pretty much be like every election before and what we do to others around the world on an all too regular basis

I always challenge this assertion. I don’t see this as a normal thing. Can you remember the last time Russia jacked with our election?

Russia (then USSR) has a long history of attempting to interfere with our democratic process (with the aim of showing that democracy is inherently inferior), but you are right - this level of interference, on a multinational platform, is unprecedented.

and other than hacking the DNC, just what did they do?

i know of facebook ads. what else?

Is hacking the DNC and Podesta, with the subsequent release of the info, not significant enough? It was a major event during the campaign.

1. Who hacked the DNC and Podesta ?

2. Who released the info or how was it released ?

3. Was the info released steeped in lies or truth ?

4. What was the response by the DNC and Podesta for it's info being hacked, and subsequently that information being released ?

5. How did the hackers or anyone know of such information ?

6. Was the information first obtained by insiders who had an ax to grind, and it's information location then given over to the hackers ?

Where is all this information or the answers to it all now ? Is there so much information out there, that the scene has been flooded, and the DNC has been enjoying the chaos in it all by assigning blame or using it politically in order to regain power somehow ?

The DNC blaming Trump for everything because they hate him, and hate him for spurious reasons unrelated, seems to be grounded in what should be called "operation political chaos" by them, where as you gather up negative information in what ever form it takes or it comes in, and then attempt to apply it politically for nefarious reasons, and/or for other reasons not pertaining to the need to get to the bottom of anything, but just use it for future outcomes in hopes to sway future elections.

All that information is in the Mueller report. Russia hacked the DNC and Podesta. Russia released the hacked information. The DNC hired CrowdStrike to clean out their network. Hackers used phishing to gain access to the network. It was not some “inside job”.

Oh so Russia just happened to know that the DNC was dirty, and so they were assured that they could gain success on hurting their chances by hacking and releasing dirt on them ? Out of thin air, the Russians targeted the DNC without any help from inside the workings of the DNC ??

Nothing dirty in the hacks, just embarrassing.
The Russians are opportunistic and have attempted to hack a great many things, often successfully.

New Russian Hacking Targeted Republican Groups, Microsoft Says (Published 2018)

Microsoft was surprised not that recent “spear phishing” attempts had occurred, but that they targeted traditional conservative think tanks. Those groups have been critical of Russia.

www.nytimes.com

Russia Targeted Election Systems in All 50 States, Report Finds (Published 2019)

A Senate panel documented an effort largely undetected by state and federal officials at the time. But its report was so heavily redacted that key lessons for 2020 were blacked out.

www.nytimes.com

Merkel cites ‘hard evidence’ Russian hackers targeted her

German chancellor says improving ties with Moscow is challenging following a hacking attempt and a murder in Berlin.

www.aljazeera.com

You are like an ostrich with it head in the sand.

The Democrats used unverified Russian propaganda (Steele Dossier) to illegally obtain a FISA warrant in order to spy on the Trump campaign and, after that, Trump's Presidential transition team. It wasn't the Russians interfering with the election, it was the DNC attempting an old fashioned coup.

How do you get from FISA warrant on Carter Page to old fashioned coup? Where’s the connection between those two things?

i'm still looking to find out other than "potentially / likely" hacking the DNC and facebook ads, what russia did to interfere in our elections and how that was so much more than "normal" interfering activity.

So what crimes did Russia commit other than the totally illegal things they did to interfere in our election? That doesn’t sound like a very serious question. Read the Muller report volume one. There was a little more along the lines of troll farms and fake grassroots but the most sensational activity was hacking and dumping of emails. That’s enough. It was a major story during the campaign. Trump designed campaign strategy around the story which is why they were seeking coordination with Wikileaks.

I don’t think there is “normal” interfering. As your link pointed out, Russia really doesn’t interfere in our elections.

it's a very serious question since we keep referring to these crimes being linked to trump somehow. if we're going to ask why is one unmasking different than the other so we can get to the details, that's fine. i'm in.

but i want to know why whatever russia did was a "vast escalation" over past interferances.

what did they do before?
hacking DNC / $100k facebook ads - is this it that we're calling a mass escalation in interferance?

i want to be sure of what we are calling escalated crimes by russia before i agree they are in fact worse than past actions.

Hacking the DNC and the emails produced was headline news for weeks. It was one of the major stories during the campaign.

Yes. It was a huge escalation.

Huge escalation that didn't change not one American vote, but hey gotta use something to hide the broken Democrat party who decided that it was better to aggressively pursue policies that the American people hated and rebuked, otherwise instead of being the party of John Kennedy back in the day (ask not what your nation can do for you, but instead ask what you can do for your nation).

How do you know the release of that information didn’t change one American vote? Seems like that’s an unknowable statement. What we do know is that Trump and his team were elated at the hacking and dumping, used them as part of their campaign and it was a major story during the campaign.

Exactly - there is no quantifiable way of knowing what the effect was, but it was certainly in the news cycle big time.

If there is no way to quantify it, then stop saying their actions made a difference at all.

In case you didn’t notice, this was in response to someone claiming it had no difference.

Huge escalation that didn't change not one American vote,

This seems to be a recurring problem.

 

[Coyote]

but that would pretty much be like every election before and what we do to others around the world on an all too regular basis

I always challenge this assertion. I don’t see this as a normal thing. Can you remember the last time Russia jacked with our election?

Russia (then USSR) has a long history of attempting to interfere with our democratic process (with the aim of showing that democracy is inherently inferior), but you are right - this level of interference, on a multinational platform, is unprecedented.

and other than hacking the DNC, just what did they do?

i know of facebook ads. what else?

Is hacking the DNC and Podesta, with the subsequent release of the info, not significant enough? It was a major event during the campaign.

1. Who hacked the DNC and Podesta ?

2. Who released the info or how was it released ?

3. Was the info released steeped in lies or truth ?

4. What was the response by the DNC and Podesta for it's info being hacked, and subsequently that information being released ?

5. How did the hackers or anyone know of such information ?

6. Was the information first obtained by insiders who had an ax to grind, and it's information location then given over to the hackers ?

Where is all this information or the answers to it all now ? Is there so much information out there, that the scene has been flooded, and the DNC has been enjoying the chaos in it all by assigning blame or using it politically in order to regain power somehow ?

The DNC blaming Trump for everything because they hate him, and hate him for spurious reasons unrelated, seems to be grounded in what should be called "operation political chaos" by them, where as you gather up negative information in what ever form it takes or it comes in, and then attempt to apply it politically for nefarious reasons, and/or for other reasons not pertaining to the need to get to the bottom of anything, but just use it for future outcomes in hopes to sway future elections.

All that information is in the Mueller report. Russia hacked the DNC and Podesta. Russia released the hacked information. The DNC hired CrowdStrike to clean out their network. Hackers used phishing to gain access to the network. It was not some “inside job”.

Oh so Russia just happened to know that the DNC was dirty, and so they were assured that they could gain success on hurting their chances by hacking and releasing dirt on them ? Out of thin air, the Russians targeted the DNC without any help from inside the workings of the DNC ??

Nothing dirty in the hacks, just embarrassing.
The Russians are opportunistic and have attempted to hack a great many things, often successfully.

New Russian Hacking Targeted Republican Groups, Microsoft Says (Published 2018)

Microsoft was surprised not that recent “spear phishing” attempts had occurred, but that they targeted traditional conservative think tanks. Those groups have been critical of Russia.

www.nytimes.com

Russia Targeted Election Systems in All 50 States, Report Finds (Published 2019)

A Senate panel documented an effort largely undetected by state and federal officials at the time. But its report was so heavily redacted that key lessons for 2020 were blacked out.

www.nytimes.com

Merkel cites ‘hard evidence’ Russian hackers targeted her

German chancellor says improving ties with Moscow is challenging following a hacking attempt and a murder in Berlin.

www.aljazeera.com

You are like an ostrich with it head in the sand.

The Democrats used unverified Russian propaganda (Steele Dossier) to illegally obtain a FISA warrant in order to spy on the Trump campaign and, after that, Trump's Presidential transition team. It wasn't the Russians interfering with the election, it was the DNC attempting an old fashioned coup.

How do you get from FISA warrant on Carter Page to old fashioned coup? Where’s the connection between those two things?

i'm still looking to find out other than "potentially / likely" hacking the DNC and facebook ads, what russia did to interfere in our elections and how that was so much more than "normal" interfering activity.

I think there are factors here not being considered.

1. They have always attempted this sort of mischief with the goal of creating chaos and division, so this is nothing new.

2. The tools available and the playing field are drastically different. By playingfield, I mean the audience they can now reach and tbe divides they can exploit. The number of people connected to the internet has increased exponentially, far ahead of our ability to handle the information. One example I remember reading about involved a pro_white demonstration coordinated by an online group. There was a counter demonstration also organized. Both to demonstrate in the same are. Both tracing back to Russian organizers. Sothat is on, non po,itical example....how much more is out there? Each one exploiting and magnifying our divides and our trust in our democratic institutions.

you're telling me what they could do.
you're telling me people fall for stupid crap when it pits one extreme side against another. 100% agreed.

but i want to know specifically what russia did to interfere in our election that makes you and others say this is MORE than normal?

what is normal and how is this more? we can either answer that or write long posts that talk about how people bitch at each other online OF WHICH everyone in here is already well aware.

Well, I would say for a starter, their hacking of DNC and collaboration with wikileaksto strategically releases it is one example. I would also add their attempted hacks at voter registration and state electoral software. That wasn’t successful yet, but it certainly ups the ante.

Is there an article that states all their 2016 activity? Wiki is anyone can edit so not sure that applies here.

Wiki also sources,.

I still don't get a baseline of past activity we compare to. In order to say this is more than usual, we need to define "usual"

well...Wikipedia gives us the best sense of a timeline:Timeline of Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections - Wikipedia

I thought Russia hacked wiki for disinformation. Now you trust them as a source?

Sources are required and if weak it's noted. You can always check the sources and decide for yourself. Do you have any other excuses for not reviewing it's timeline?

Who says I didn't review it? You are again making assumptions as to my viewpoint and what I am saying then ask me to defend shit I never said.

I simply said in one post you say Russia hacked wiki, in another post you say here look at wiki for Russian timeliness. You don't find that ironic?

Now again one of my continued issues with you is you make assumptions on how I think and feel and reply as lf those are true. How long would you tolerate my doing this to you?

What I find ironic is your constant deflecting of discussion back onto me. A timeline is provided in Wiki. You requested some sort of timeline. Now you're arguing it's not sufficient.

Provide a better one if you don't like it.

 

[Coyote]

but that would pretty much be like every election before and what we do to others around the world on an all too regular basis

I always challenge this assertion. I don’t see this as a normal thing. Can you remember the last time Russia jacked with our election?

Russia (then USSR) has a long history of attempting to interfere with our democratic process (with the aim of showing that democracy is inherently inferior), but you are right - this level of interference, on a multinational platform, is unprecedented.

and other than hacking the DNC, just what did they do?

i know of facebook ads. what else?

Is hacking the DNC and Podesta, with the subsequent release of the info, not significant enough? It was a major event during the campaign.

1. Who hacked the DNC and Podesta ?

2. Who released the info or how was it released ?

3. Was the info released steeped in lies or truth ?

4. What was the response by the DNC and Podesta for it's info being hacked, and subsequently that information being released ?

5. How did the hackers or anyone know of such information ?

6. Was the information first obtained by insiders who had an ax to grind, and it's information location then given over to the hackers ?

Where is all this information or the answers to it all now ? Is there so much information out there, that the scene has been flooded, and the DNC has been enjoying the chaos in it all by assigning blame or using it politically in order to regain power somehow ?

The DNC blaming Trump for everything because they hate him, and hate him for spurious reasons unrelated, seems to be grounded in what should be called "operation political chaos" by them, where as you gather up negative information in what ever form it takes or it comes in, and then attempt to apply it politically for nefarious reasons, and/or for other reasons not pertaining to the need to get to the bottom of anything, but just use it for future outcomes in hopes to sway future elections.

All that information is in the Mueller report. Russia hacked the DNC and Podesta. Russia released the hacked information. The DNC hired CrowdStrike to clean out their network. Hackers used phishing to gain access to the network. It was not some “inside job”.

Oh so Russia just happened to know that the DNC was dirty, and so they were assured that they could gain success on hurting their chances by hacking and releasing dirt on them ? Out of thin air, the Russians targeted the DNC without any help from inside the workings of the DNC ??

Nothing dirty in the hacks, just embarrassing.
The Russians are opportunistic and have attempted to hack a great many things, often successfully.

New Russian Hacking Targeted Republican Groups, Microsoft Says (Published 2018)

Microsoft was surprised not that recent “spear phishing” attempts had occurred, but that they targeted traditional conservative think tanks. Those groups have been critical of Russia.

www.nytimes.com

Russia Targeted Election Systems in All 50 States, Report Finds (Published 2019)

A Senate panel documented an effort largely undetected by state and federal officials at the time. But its report was so heavily redacted that key lessons for 2020 were blacked out.

www.nytimes.com

Merkel cites ‘hard evidence’ Russian hackers targeted her

German chancellor says improving ties with Moscow is challenging following a hacking attempt and a murder in Berlin.

www.aljazeera.com

You are like an ostrich with it head in the sand.

The Democrats used unverified Russian propaganda (Steele Dossier) to illegally obtain a FISA warrant in order to spy on the Trump campaign and, after that, Trump's Presidential transition team. It wasn't the Russians interfering with the election, it was the DNC attempting an old fashioned coup.

How do you get from FISA warrant on Carter Page to old fashioned coup? Where’s the connection between those two things?

i'm still looking to find out other than "potentially / likely" hacking the DNC and facebook ads, what russia did to interfere in our elections and how that was so much more than "normal" interfering activity.

So what crimes did Russia commit other than the totally illegal things they did to interfere in our election? That doesn’t sound like a very serious question. Read the Muller report volume one. There was a little more along the lines of troll farms and fake grassroots but the most sensational activity was hacking and dumping of emails. That’s enough. It was a major story during the campaign. Trump designed campaign strategy around the story which is why they were seeking coordination with Wikileaks.

I don’t think there is “normal” interfering. As your link pointed out, Russia really doesn’t interfere in our elections.

it's a very serious question since we keep referring to these crimes being linked to trump somehow. if we're going to ask why is one unmasking different than the other so we can get to the details, that's fine. i'm in.

but i want to know why whatever russia did was a "vast escalation" over past interferances.

what did they do before?
hacking DNC / $100k facebook ads - is this it that we're calling a mass escalation in interferance?

i want to be sure of what we are calling escalated crimes by russia before i agree they are in fact worse than past actions.

Hacking the DNC and the emails produced was headline news for weeks. It was one of the major stories during the campaign.

Yes. It was a huge escalation.

Huge escalation that didn't change not one American vote, but hey gotta use something to hide the broken Democrat party who decided that it was better to aggressively pursue policies that the American people hated and rebuked, otherwise instead of being the party of John Kennedy back in the day (ask not what your nation can do for you, but instead ask what you can do for your nation).

How do you know the release of that information didn’t change one American vote? Seems like that’s an unknowable statement. What we do know is that Trump and his team were elated at the hacking and dumping, used them as part of their campaign and it was a major story during the campaign.

Exactly - there is no quantifiable way of knowing what the effect was, but it was certainly in the news cycle big time.

If there is no way to quantify it, then stop saying their actions made a difference at all.

That would be inaccurate. You can't say that they made NO difference. All you can say is you don't know. I suspect someone out there has probably attempted to measure it - you could view polls of people's opionions towards her before, during, and after the media cycle and get a general idea, but you can't say with certainty if or how much it made a difference.

 

[iceberg]

but that would pretty much be like every election before and what we do to others around the world on an all too regular basis

I always challenge this assertion. I don’t see this as a normal thing. Can you remember the last time Russia jacked with our election?

Russia (then USSR) has a long history of attempting to interfere with our democratic process (with the aim of showing that democracy is inherently inferior), but you are right - this level of interference, on a multinational platform, is unprecedented.

and other than hacking the DNC, just what did they do?

i know of facebook ads. what else?

Is hacking the DNC and Podesta, with the subsequent release of the info, not significant enough? It was a major event during the campaign.

1. Who hacked the DNC and Podesta ?

2. Who released the info or how was it released ?

3. Was the info released steeped in lies or truth ?

4. What was the response by the DNC and Podesta for it's info being hacked, and subsequently that information being released ?

5. How did the hackers or anyone know of such information ?

6. Was the information first obtained by insiders who had an ax to grind, and it's information location then given over to the hackers ?

Where is all this information or the answers to it all now ? Is there so much information out there, that the scene has been flooded, and the DNC has been enjoying the chaos in it all by assigning blame or using it politically in order to regain power somehow ?

The DNC blaming Trump for everything because they hate him, and hate him for spurious reasons unrelated, seems to be grounded in what should be called "operation political chaos" by them, where as you gather up negative information in what ever form it takes or it comes in, and then attempt to apply it politically for nefarious reasons, and/or for other reasons not pertaining to the need to get to the bottom of anything, but just use it for future outcomes in hopes to sway future elections.

All that information is in the Mueller report. Russia hacked the DNC and Podesta. Russia released the hacked information. The DNC hired CrowdStrike to clean out their network. Hackers used phishing to gain access to the network. It was not some “inside job”.

Oh so Russia just happened to know that the DNC was dirty, and so they were assured that they could gain success on hurting their chances by hacking and releasing dirt on them ? Out of thin air, the Russians targeted the DNC without any help from inside the workings of the DNC ??

Nothing dirty in the hacks, just embarrassing.
The Russians are opportunistic and have attempted to hack a great many things, often successfully.

New Russian Hacking Targeted Republican Groups, Microsoft Says (Published 2018)

Microsoft was surprised not that recent “spear phishing” attempts had occurred, but that they targeted traditional conservative think tanks. Those groups have been critical of Russia.

www.nytimes.com

Russia Targeted Election Systems in All 50 States, Report Finds (Published 2019)

A Senate panel documented an effort largely undetected by state and federal officials at the time. But its report was so heavily redacted that key lessons for 2020 were blacked out.

www.nytimes.com

Merkel cites ‘hard evidence’ Russian hackers targeted her

German chancellor says improving ties with Moscow is challenging following a hacking attempt and a murder in Berlin.

www.aljazeera.com

You are like an ostrich with it head in the sand.

The Democrats used unverified Russian propaganda (Steele Dossier) to illegally obtain a FISA warrant in order to spy on the Trump campaign and, after that, Trump's Presidential transition team. It wasn't the Russians interfering with the election, it was the DNC attempting an old fashioned coup.

How do you get from FISA warrant on Carter Page to old fashioned coup? Where’s the connection between those two things?

i'm still looking to find out other than "potentially / likely" hacking the DNC and facebook ads, what russia did to interfere in our elections and how that was so much more than "normal" interfering activity.

So what crimes did Russia commit other than the totally illegal things they did to interfere in our election? That doesn’t sound like a very serious question. Read the Muller report volume one. There was a little more along the lines of troll farms and fake grassroots but the most sensational activity was hacking and dumping of emails. That’s enough. It was a major story during the campaign. Trump designed campaign strategy around the story which is why they were seeking coordination with Wikileaks.

I don’t think there is “normal” interfering. As your link pointed out, Russia really doesn’t interfere in our elections.

it's a very serious question since we keep referring to these crimes being linked to trump somehow. if we're going to ask why is one unmasking different than the other so we can get to the details, that's fine. i'm in.

but i want to know why whatever russia did was a "vast escalation" over past interferances.

what did they do before?
hacking DNC / $100k facebook ads - is this it that we're calling a mass escalation in interferance?

i want to be sure of what we are calling escalated crimes by russia before i agree they are in fact worse than past actions.

Hacking the DNC and the emails produced was headline news for weeks. It was one of the major stories during the campaign.

Yes. It was a huge escalation.

Huge escalation that didn't change not one American vote, but hey gotta use something to hide the broken Democrat party who decided that it was better to aggressively pursue policies that the American people hated and rebuked, otherwise instead of being the party of John Kennedy back in the day (ask not what your nation can do for you, but instead ask what you can do for your nation).

How do you know the release of that information didn’t change one American vote? Seems like that’s an unknowable statement. What we do know is that Trump and his team were elated at the hacking and dumping, used them as part of their campaign and it was a major story during the campaign.

Exactly - there is no quantifiable way of knowing what the effect was, but it was certainly in the news cycle big time.

If there is no way to quantify it, then stop saying their actions made a difference at all.

In case you didn’t notice, this was in response to someone claiming it had no difference.

Huge escalation that didn't change not one American vote,

This seems to be a recurring problem.

if we can't say whether or not a vote was changed, how can you say their efforts had an impact?

i swear to god we seem to be missing basic baseline math for how we approach our conclusions.

THIS WAS THE WORST YEAR FOR TORNADOS IN OKLAHOMA!!!

at least we have a past history to look at and compare to make that statement.

now WORST RUSSIAN INTERFERENCE EVER!!!

as compared to what past interference?

so fine - if it had a difference how to you quantify it? if you can't, then you can't say it made a difference. don't care what the situation is - baselines must be there to see any deviation.

 

[iceberg]

but that would pretty much be like every election before and what we do to others around the world on an all too regular basis

I always challenge this assertion. I don’t see this as a normal thing. Can you remember the last time Russia jacked with our election?

Russia (then USSR) has a long history of attempting to interfere with our democratic process (with the aim of showing that democracy is inherently inferior), but you are right - this level of interference, on a multinational platform, is unprecedented.

and other than hacking the DNC, just what did they do?

i know of facebook ads. what else?

Is hacking the DNC and Podesta, with the subsequent release of the info, not significant enough? It was a major event during the campaign.

1. Who hacked the DNC and Podesta ?

2. Who released the info or how was it released ?

3. Was the info released steeped in lies or truth ?

4. What was the response by the DNC and Podesta for it's info being hacked, and subsequently that information being released ?

5. How did the hackers or anyone know of such information ?

6. Was the information first obtained by insiders who had an ax to grind, and it's information location then given over to the hackers ?

Where is all this information or the answers to it all now ? Is there so much information out there, that the scene has been flooded, and the DNC has been enjoying the chaos in it all by assigning blame or using it politically in order to regain power somehow ?

The DNC blaming Trump for everything because they hate him, and hate him for spurious reasons unrelated, seems to be grounded in what should be called "operation political chaos" by them, where as you gather up negative information in what ever form it takes or it comes in, and then attempt to apply it politically for nefarious reasons, and/or for other reasons not pertaining to the need to get to the bottom of anything, but just use it for future outcomes in hopes to sway future elections.

All that information is in the Mueller report. Russia hacked the DNC and Podesta. Russia released the hacked information. The DNC hired CrowdStrike to clean out their network. Hackers used phishing to gain access to the network. It was not some “inside job”.

Oh so Russia just happened to know that the DNC was dirty, and so they were assured that they could gain success on hurting their chances by hacking and releasing dirt on them ? Out of thin air, the Russians targeted the DNC without any help from inside the workings of the DNC ??

Nothing dirty in the hacks, just embarrassing.
The Russians are opportunistic and have attempted to hack a great many things, often successfully.

New Russian Hacking Targeted Republican Groups, Microsoft Says (Published 2018)

Microsoft was surprised not that recent “spear phishing” attempts had occurred, but that they targeted traditional conservative think tanks. Those groups have been critical of Russia.

www.nytimes.com

Russia Targeted Election Systems in All 50 States, Report Finds (Published 2019)

A Senate panel documented an effort largely undetected by state and federal officials at the time. But its report was so heavily redacted that key lessons for 2020 were blacked out.

www.nytimes.com

Merkel cites ‘hard evidence’ Russian hackers targeted her

German chancellor says improving ties with Moscow is challenging following a hacking attempt and a murder in Berlin.

www.aljazeera.com

You are like an ostrich with it head in the sand.

The Democrats used unverified Russian propaganda (Steele Dossier) to illegally obtain a FISA warrant in order to spy on the Trump campaign and, after that, Trump's Presidential transition team. It wasn't the Russians interfering with the election, it was the DNC attempting an old fashioned coup.

How do you get from FISA warrant on Carter Page to old fashioned coup? Where’s the connection between those two things?

i'm still looking to find out other than "potentially / likely" hacking the DNC and facebook ads, what russia did to interfere in our elections and how that was so much more than "normal" interfering activity.

I think there are factors here not being considered.

1. They have always attempted this sort of mischief with the goal of creating chaos and division, so this is nothing new.

2. The tools available and the playing field are drastically different. By playingfield, I mean the audience they can now reach and tbe divides they can exploit. The number of people connected to the internet has increased exponentially, far ahead of our ability to handle the information. One example I remember reading about involved a pro_white demonstration coordinated by an online group. There was a counter demonstration also organized. Both to demonstrate in the same are. Both tracing back to Russian organizers. Sothat is on, non po,itical example....how much more is out there? Each one exploiting and magnifying our divides and our trust in our democratic institutions.

you're telling me what they could do.
you're telling me people fall for stupid crap when it pits one extreme side against another. 100% agreed.

but i want to know specifically what russia did to interfere in our election that makes you and others say this is MORE than normal?

what is normal and how is this more? we can either answer that or write long posts that talk about how people bitch at each other online OF WHICH everyone in here is already well aware.

Well, I would say for a starter, their hacking of DNC and collaboration with wikileaksto strategically releases it is one example. I would also add their attempted hacks at voter registration and state electoral software. That wasn’t successful yet, but it certainly ups the ante.

Is there an article that states all their 2016 activity? Wiki is anyone can edit so not sure that applies here.

Wiki also sources,.

I still don't get a baseline of past activity we compare to. In order to say this is more than usual, we need to define "usual"

well...Wikipedia gives us the best sense of a timeline:Timeline of Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections - Wikipedia

I thought Russia hacked wiki for disinformation. Now you trust them as a source?

Sources are required and if weak it's noted. You can always check the sources and decide for yourself. Do you have any other excuses for not reviewing it's timeline?

Who says I didn't review it? You are again making assumptions as to my viewpoint and what I am saying then ask me to defend shit I never said.

I simply said in one post you say Russia hacked wiki, in another post you say here look at wiki for Russian timeliness. You don't find that ironic?

Now again one of my continued issues with you is you make assumptions on how I think and feel and reply as lf those are true. How long would you tolerate my doing this to you?

What I find ironic is your constant deflecting of discussion back onto me. A timeline is provided in Wiki. You requested some sort of timeline. Now you're arguing it's not sufficient.

Provide a better one if you don't like it.

where did i say it wasn't sufficient?

again you come at me for shit i never said ASSUMING the worst so you can attack.

when you stop doing that i'll likely stop asking you to stop doing that.

 

[Coyote]

but that would pretty much be like every election before and what we do to others around the world on an all too regular basis

I always challenge this assertion. I don’t see this as a normal thing. Can you remember the last time Russia jacked with our election?

Russia (then USSR) has a long history of attempting to interfere with our democratic process (with the aim of showing that democracy is inherently inferior), but you are right - this level of interference, on a multinational platform, is unprecedented.

and other than hacking the DNC, just what did they do?

i know of facebook ads. what else?

Is hacking the DNC and Podesta, with the subsequent release of the info, not significant enough? It was a major event during the campaign.

1. Who hacked the DNC and Podesta ?

2. Who released the info or how was it released ?

3. Was the info released steeped in lies or truth ?

4. What was the response by the DNC and Podesta for it's info being hacked, and subsequently that information being released ?

5. How did the hackers or anyone know of such information ?

6. Was the information first obtained by insiders who had an ax to grind, and it's information location then given over to the hackers ?

Where is all this information or the answers to it all now ? Is there so much information out there, that the scene has been flooded, and the DNC has been enjoying the chaos in it all by assigning blame or using it politically in order to regain power somehow ?

The DNC blaming Trump for everything because they hate him, and hate him for spurious reasons unrelated, seems to be grounded in what should be called "operation political chaos" by them, where as you gather up negative information in what ever form it takes or it comes in, and then attempt to apply it politically for nefarious reasons, and/or for other reasons not pertaining to the need to get to the bottom of anything, but just use it for future outcomes in hopes to sway future elections.

All that information is in the Mueller report. Russia hacked the DNC and Podesta. Russia released the hacked information. The DNC hired CrowdStrike to clean out their network. Hackers used phishing to gain access to the network. It was not some “inside job”.

Oh so Russia just happened to know that the DNC was dirty, and so they were assured that they could gain success on hurting their chances by hacking and releasing dirt on them ? Out of thin air, the Russians targeted the DNC without any help from inside the workings of the DNC ??

Nothing dirty in the hacks, just embarrassing.
The Russians are opportunistic and have attempted to hack a great many things, often successfully.

New Russian Hacking Targeted Republican Groups, Microsoft Says (Published 2018)

Microsoft was surprised not that recent “spear phishing” attempts had occurred, but that they targeted traditional conservative think tanks. Those groups have been critical of Russia.

www.nytimes.com

Russia Targeted Election Systems in All 50 States, Report Finds (Published 2019)

A Senate panel documented an effort largely undetected by state and federal officials at the time. But its report was so heavily redacted that key lessons for 2020 were blacked out.

www.nytimes.com

Merkel cites ‘hard evidence’ Russian hackers targeted her

German chancellor says improving ties with Moscow is challenging following a hacking attempt and a murder in Berlin.

www.aljazeera.com

You are like an ostrich with it head in the sand.

The Democrats used unverified Russian propaganda (Steele Dossier) to illegally obtain a FISA warrant in order to spy on the Trump campaign and, after that, Trump's Presidential transition team. It wasn't the Russians interfering with the election, it was the DNC attempting an old fashioned coup.

How do you get from FISA warrant on Carter Page to old fashioned coup? Where’s the connection between those two things?

i'm still looking to find out other than "potentially / likely" hacking the DNC and facebook ads, what russia did to interfere in our elections and how that was so much more than "normal" interfering activity.

I think there are factors here not being considered.

1. They have always attempted this sort of mischief with the goal of creating chaos and division, so this is nothing new.

2. The tools available and the playing field are drastically different. By playingfield, I mean the audience they can now reach and tbe divides they can exploit. The number of people connected to the internet has increased exponentially, far ahead of our ability to handle the information. One example I remember reading about involved a pro_white demonstration coordinated by an online group. There was a counter demonstration also organized. Both to demonstrate in the same are. Both tracing back to Russian organizers. Sothat is on, non po,itical example....how much more is out there? Each one exploiting and magnifying our divides and our trust in our democratic institutions.

you're telling me what they could do.
you're telling me people fall for stupid crap when it pits one extreme side against another. 100% agreed.

but i want to know specifically what russia did to interfere in our election that makes you and others say this is MORE than normal?

what is normal and how is this more? we can either answer that or write long posts that talk about how people bitch at each other online OF WHICH everyone in here is already well aware.

Well, I would say for a starter, their hacking of DNC and collaboration with wikileaksto strategically releases it is one example. I would also add their attempted hacks at voter registration and state electoral software. That wasn’t successful yet, but it certainly ups the ante.

Is there an article that states all their 2016 activity? Wiki is anyone can edit so not sure that applies here.

Wiki also sources,.

I still don't get a baseline of past activity we compare to. In order to say this is more than usual, we need to define "usual"

well...Wikipedia gives us the best sense of a timeline:Timeline of Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections - Wikipedia

I thought Russia hacked wiki for disinformation. Now you trust them as a source?

Sources are required and if weak it's noted. You can always check the sources and decide for yourself. Do you have any other excuses for not reviewing it's timeline?

Who says I didn't review it? You are again making assumptions as to my viewpoint and what I am saying then ask me to defend shit I never said.

I simply said in one post you say Russia hacked wiki, in another post you say here look at wiki for Russian timeliness. You don't find that ironic?

Now again one of my continued issues with you is you make assumptions on how I think and feel and reply as lf those are true. How long would you tolerate my doing this to you?

What I find ironic is your constant deflecting of discussion back onto me. A timeline is provided in Wiki. You requested some sort of timeline. Now you're arguing it's not sufficient.

Provide a better one if you don't like it.

where did i say it wasn't sufficient?

again you come at me for shit i never said ASSUMING the worst so you can attack.

when you stop doing that i'll likely stop asking you to stop doing that.

Now you are just trolling. I'm done with you.

 

[Billy_Bob]

He was never unmasked.

Go with that distortion...

THe facts remain that Flynn was being spied upon by the Obama administration using the FISA system. This requires that US persons be unmasked and only a person holding that authority could do it. Enter Joe Biden... Now who leaked that information to the press? Any Guesses?

 

[Coyote]

but that would pretty much be like every election before and what we do to others around the world on an all too regular basis

I always challenge this assertion. I don’t see this as a normal thing. Can you remember the last time Russia jacked with our election?

Russia (then USSR) has a long history of attempting to interfere with our democratic process (with the aim of showing that democracy is inherently inferior), but you are right - this level of interference, on a multinational platform, is unprecedented.

and other than hacking the DNC, just what did they do?

i know of facebook ads. what else?

Is hacking the DNC and Podesta, with the subsequent release of the info, not significant enough? It was a major event during the campaign.

1. Who hacked the DNC and Podesta ?

2. Who released the info or how was it released ?

3. Was the info released steeped in lies or truth ?

4. What was the response by the DNC and Podesta for it's info being hacked, and subsequently that information being released ?

5. How did the hackers or anyone know of such information ?

6. Was the information first obtained by insiders who had an ax to grind, and it's information location then given over to the hackers ?

Where is all this information or the answers to it all now ? Is there so much information out there, that the scene has been flooded, and the DNC has been enjoying the chaos in it all by assigning blame or using it politically in order to regain power somehow ?

The DNC blaming Trump for everything because they hate him, and hate him for spurious reasons unrelated, seems to be grounded in what should be called "operation political chaos" by them, where as you gather up negative information in what ever form it takes or it comes in, and then attempt to apply it politically for nefarious reasons, and/or for other reasons not pertaining to the need to get to the bottom of anything, but just use it for future outcomes in hopes to sway future elections.

All that information is in the Mueller report. Russia hacked the DNC and Podesta. Russia released the hacked information. The DNC hired CrowdStrike to clean out their network. Hackers used phishing to gain access to the network. It was not some “inside job”.

Oh so Russia just happened to know that the DNC was dirty, and so they were assured that they could gain success on hurting their chances by hacking and releasing dirt on them ? Out of thin air, the Russians targeted the DNC without any help from inside the workings of the DNC ??

Nothing dirty in the hacks, just embarrassing.
The Russians are opportunistic and have attempted to hack a great many things, often successfully.

New Russian Hacking Targeted Republican Groups, Microsoft Says (Published 2018)

Microsoft was surprised not that recent “spear phishing” attempts had occurred, but that they targeted traditional conservative think tanks. Those groups have been critical of Russia.

www.nytimes.com

Russia Targeted Election Systems in All 50 States, Report Finds (Published 2019)

A Senate panel documented an effort largely undetected by state and federal officials at the time. But its report was so heavily redacted that key lessons for 2020 were blacked out.

www.nytimes.com

Merkel cites ‘hard evidence’ Russian hackers targeted her

German chancellor says improving ties with Moscow is challenging following a hacking attempt and a murder in Berlin.

www.aljazeera.com

You are like an ostrich with it head in the sand.

The Democrats used unverified Russian propaganda (Steele Dossier) to illegally obtain a FISA warrant in order to spy on the Trump campaign and, after that, Trump's Presidential transition team. It wasn't the Russians interfering with the election, it was the DNC attempting an old fashioned coup.

How do you get from FISA warrant on Carter Page to old fashioned coup? Where’s the connection between those two things?

i'm still looking to find out other than "potentially / likely" hacking the DNC and facebook ads, what russia did to interfere in our elections and how that was so much more than "normal" interfering activity.

So what crimes did Russia commit other than the totally illegal things they did to interfere in our election? That doesn’t sound like a very serious question. Read the Muller report volume one. There was a little more along the lines of troll farms and fake grassroots but the most sensational activity was hacking and dumping of emails. That’s enough. It was a major story during the campaign. Trump designed campaign strategy around the story which is why they were seeking coordination with Wikileaks.

I don’t think there is “normal” interfering. As your link pointed out, Russia really doesn’t interfere in our elections.

it's a very serious question since we keep referring to these crimes being linked to trump somehow. if we're going to ask why is one unmasking different than the other so we can get to the details, that's fine. i'm in.

but i want to know why whatever russia did was a "vast escalation" over past interferances.

what did they do before?
hacking DNC / $100k facebook ads - is this it that we're calling a mass escalation in interferance?

i want to be sure of what we are calling escalated crimes by russia before i agree they are in fact worse than past actions.

Hacking the DNC and the emails produced was headline news for weeks. It was one of the major stories during the campaign.

Yes. It was a huge escalation.

Huge escalation that didn't change not one American vote, but hey gotta use something to hide the broken Democrat party who decided that it was better to aggressively pursue policies that the American people hated and rebuked, otherwise instead of being the party of John Kennedy back in the day (ask not what your nation can do for you, but instead ask what you can do for your nation).

How do you know the release of that information didn’t change one American vote? Seems like that’s an unknowable statement. What we do know is that Trump and his team were elated at the hacking and dumping, used them as part of their campaign and it was a major story during the campaign.

Exactly - there is no quantifiable way of knowing what the effect was, but it was certainly in the news cycle big time.

If there is no way to quantify it, then stop saying their actions made a difference at all.

In case you didn’t notice, this was in response to someone claiming it had no difference.

Huge escalation that didn't change not one American vote,

This seems to be a recurring problem.

if we can't say whether or not a vote was changed, how can you say their efforts had an impact?

i swear to god we seem to be missing basic baseline math for how we approach our conclusions.

THIS WAS THE WORST YEAR FOR TORNADOS IN OKLAHOMA!!!

at least we have a past history to look at and compare to make that statement.

now WORST RUSSIAN INTERFERENCE EVER!!!

as compared to what past interference?

so fine - if it had a difference how to you quantify it? if you can't, then you can't say it made a difference. don't care what the situation is - baselines must be there to see any deviation.

A timeline was provided. If you don't like it, show us a better one.

 

[Coyote]

He was never unmasked.

Go with that distortion...

THe facts remain that Flynn was being spied upon by the Obama administration using the FISA system. This requires that US persons be unmasked and only a person holding that authority could do it. Enter Joe Biden... Now who leaked that information to the press? Any Guesses?

No facts support that claim.

Unmasking is done all the time - there were something like 27,000 unmasking requests during Trump's first two years. Where is the outrage?

 

[iceberg]

but that would pretty much be like every election before and what we do to others around the world on an all too regular basis

I always challenge this assertion. I don’t see this as a normal thing. Can you remember the last time Russia jacked with our election?

Russia (then USSR) has a long history of attempting to interfere with our democratic process (with the aim of showing that democracy is inherently inferior), but you are right - this level of interference, on a multinational platform, is unprecedented.

and other than hacking the DNC, just what did they do?

i know of facebook ads. what else?

Is hacking the DNC and Podesta, with the subsequent release of the info, not significant enough? It was a major event during the campaign.

1. Who hacked the DNC and Podesta ?

2. Who released the info or how was it released ?

3. Was the info released steeped in lies or truth ?

4. What was the response by the DNC and Podesta for it's info being hacked, and subsequently that information being released ?

5. How did the hackers or anyone know of such information ?

6. Was the information first obtained by insiders who had an ax to grind, and it's information location then given over to the hackers ?

Where is all this information or the answers to it all now ? Is there so much information out there, that the scene has been flooded, and the DNC has been enjoying the chaos in it all by assigning blame or using it politically in order to regain power somehow ?

The DNC blaming Trump for everything because they hate him, and hate him for spurious reasons unrelated, seems to be grounded in what should be called "operation political chaos" by them, where as you gather up negative information in what ever form it takes or it comes in, and then attempt to apply it politically for nefarious reasons, and/or for other reasons not pertaining to the need to get to the bottom of anything, but just use it for future outcomes in hopes to sway future elections.

All that information is in the Mueller report. Russia hacked the DNC and Podesta. Russia released the hacked information. The DNC hired CrowdStrike to clean out their network. Hackers used phishing to gain access to the network. It was not some “inside job”.

Oh so Russia just happened to know that the DNC was dirty, and so they were assured that they could gain success on hurting their chances by hacking and releasing dirt on them ? Out of thin air, the Russians targeted the DNC without any help from inside the workings of the DNC ??

Nothing dirty in the hacks, just embarrassing.
The Russians are opportunistic and have attempted to hack a great many things, often successfully.

New Russian Hacking Targeted Republican Groups, Microsoft Says (Published 2018)

Microsoft was surprised not that recent “spear phishing” attempts had occurred, but that they targeted traditional conservative think tanks. Those groups have been critical of Russia.

www.nytimes.com

Russia Targeted Election Systems in All 50 States, Report Finds (Published 2019)

A Senate panel documented an effort largely undetected by state and federal officials at the time. But its report was so heavily redacted that key lessons for 2020 were blacked out.

www.nytimes.com

Merkel cites ‘hard evidence’ Russian hackers targeted her

German chancellor says improving ties with Moscow is challenging following a hacking attempt and a murder in Berlin.

www.aljazeera.com

You are like an ostrich with it head in the sand.

The Democrats used unverified Russian propaganda (Steele Dossier) to illegally obtain a FISA warrant in order to spy on the Trump campaign and, after that, Trump's Presidential transition team. It wasn't the Russians interfering with the election, it was the DNC attempting an old fashioned coup.

How do you get from FISA warrant on Carter Page to old fashioned coup? Where’s the connection between those two things?

i'm still looking to find out other than "potentially / likely" hacking the DNC and facebook ads, what russia did to interfere in our elections and how that was so much more than "normal" interfering activity.

So what crimes did Russia commit other than the totally illegal things they did to interfere in our election? That doesn’t sound like a very serious question. Read the Muller report volume one. There was a little more along the lines of troll farms and fake grassroots but the most sensational activity was hacking and dumping of emails. That’s enough. It was a major story during the campaign. Trump designed campaign strategy around the story which is why they were seeking coordination with Wikileaks.

I don’t think there is “normal” interfering. As your link pointed out, Russia really doesn’t interfere in our elections.

it's a very serious question since we keep referring to these crimes being linked to trump somehow. if we're going to ask why is one unmasking different than the other so we can get to the details, that's fine. i'm in.

but i want to know why whatever russia did was a "vast escalation" over past interferances.

what did they do before?
hacking DNC / $100k facebook ads - is this it that we're calling a mass escalation in interferance?

i want to be sure of what we are calling escalated crimes by russia before i agree they are in fact worse than past actions.

Hacking the DNC and the emails produced was headline news for weeks. It was one of the major stories during the campaign.

Yes. It was a huge escalation.

Huge escalation that didn't change not one American vote, but hey gotta use something to hide the broken Democrat party who decided that it was better to aggressively pursue policies that the American people hated and rebuked, otherwise instead of being the party of John Kennedy back in the day (ask not what your nation can do for you, but instead ask what you can do for your nation).

How do you know the release of that information didn’t change one American vote? Seems like that’s an unknowable statement. What we do know is that Trump and his team were elated at the hacking and dumping, used them as part of their campaign and it was a major story during the campaign.

Exactly - there is no quantifiable way of knowing what the effect was, but it was certainly in the news cycle big time.

If there is no way to quantify it, then stop saying their actions made a difference at all.

That would be inaccurate. You can't say that they made NO difference. All you can say is you don't know. I suspect someone out there has probably attempted to measure it - you could view polls of people's opionions towards her before, during, and after the media cycle and get a general idea, but you can't say with certainty if or how much it made a difference.

great. if you don't know then you can't say it did.

and you have still NEVER AT ANY POINT IN TIME referenced SPECIFIC actions that would have potentially altered peoples opinions of hillary.

Facebook ads? Did that do it? when they released all the ads i went and looked at around 10-15% of them and that took awhile cause there were a lot of them. 99% of the ads i saw were more EXTREME GROUP MAKES EXTREME STATEMENT TO OTHER EXTREME GROUP to play off our already existing nature to argue.

in 3 instances this am alone you refuse to go by what i have said but rather what you would like to argue against and pinning that to me as if i said it.

to be clear - i read the timelines but my questions were never about those - but about your crying RUSSIA HACKED WIKI LOOK AT WIKI HERE FOR THE TIMELINE and the vast contradiction you made in the span of i believe 4 posts. you refuse to acknowledge these things you say and keep coming at me for shit i never said.

very odd. some would say "deranged".

 

[iceberg]

but that would pretty much be like every election before and what we do to others around the world on an all too regular basis

I always challenge this assertion. I don’t see this as a normal thing. Can you remember the last time Russia jacked with our election?

Russia (then USSR) has a long history of attempting to interfere with our democratic process (with the aim of showing that democracy is inherently inferior), but you are right - this level of interference, on a multinational platform, is unprecedented.

and other than hacking the DNC, just what did they do?

i know of facebook ads. what else?

Is hacking the DNC and Podesta, with the subsequent release of the info, not significant enough? It was a major event during the campaign.

1. Who hacked the DNC and Podesta ?

2. Who released the info or how was it released ?

3. Was the info released steeped in lies or truth ?

4. What was the response by the DNC and Podesta for it's info being hacked, and subsequently that information being released ?

5. How did the hackers or anyone know of such information ?

6. Was the information first obtained by insiders who had an ax to grind, and it's information location then given over to the hackers ?

Where is all this information or the answers to it all now ? Is there so much information out there, that the scene has been flooded, and the DNC has been enjoying the chaos in it all by assigning blame or using it politically in order to regain power somehow ?

The DNC blaming Trump for everything because they hate him, and hate him for spurious reasons unrelated, seems to be grounded in what should be called "operation political chaos" by them, where as you gather up negative information in what ever form it takes or it comes in, and then attempt to apply it politically for nefarious reasons, and/or for other reasons not pertaining to the need to get to the bottom of anything, but just use it for future outcomes in hopes to sway future elections.

All that information is in the Mueller report. Russia hacked the DNC and Podesta. Russia released the hacked information. The DNC hired CrowdStrike to clean out their network. Hackers used phishing to gain access to the network. It was not some “inside job”.

Oh so Russia just happened to know that the DNC was dirty, and so they were assured that they could gain success on hurting their chances by hacking and releasing dirt on them ? Out of thin air, the Russians targeted the DNC without any help from inside the workings of the DNC ??

Nothing dirty in the hacks, just embarrassing.
The Russians are opportunistic and have attempted to hack a great many things, often successfully.

New Russian Hacking Targeted Republican Groups, Microsoft Says (Published 2018)

Microsoft was surprised not that recent “spear phishing” attempts had occurred, but that they targeted traditional conservative think tanks. Those groups have been critical of Russia.

www.nytimes.com

Russia Targeted Election Systems in All 50 States, Report Finds (Published 2019)

A Senate panel documented an effort largely undetected by state and federal officials at the time. But its report was so heavily redacted that key lessons for 2020 were blacked out.

www.nytimes.com

Merkel cites ‘hard evidence’ Russian hackers targeted her

German chancellor says improving ties with Moscow is challenging following a hacking attempt and a murder in Berlin.

www.aljazeera.com

You are like an ostrich with it head in the sand.

The Democrats used unverified Russian propaganda (Steele Dossier) to illegally obtain a FISA warrant in order to spy on the Trump campaign and, after that, Trump's Presidential transition team. It wasn't the Russians interfering with the election, it was the DNC attempting an old fashioned coup.

How do you get from FISA warrant on Carter Page to old fashioned coup? Where’s the connection between those two things?

i'm still looking to find out other than "potentially / likely" hacking the DNC and facebook ads, what russia did to interfere in our elections and how that was so much more than "normal" interfering activity.

So what crimes did Russia commit other than the totally illegal things they did to interfere in our election? That doesn’t sound like a very serious question. Read the Muller report volume one. There was a little more along the lines of troll farms and fake grassroots but the most sensational activity was hacking and dumping of emails. That’s enough. It was a major story during the campaign. Trump designed campaign strategy around the story which is why they were seeking coordination with Wikileaks.

I don’t think there is “normal” interfering. As your link pointed out, Russia really doesn’t interfere in our elections.

it's a very serious question since we keep referring to these crimes being linked to trump somehow. if we're going to ask why is one unmasking different than the other so we can get to the details, that's fine. i'm in.

but i want to know why whatever russia did was a "vast escalation" over past interferances.

what did they do before?
hacking DNC / $100k facebook ads - is this it that we're calling a mass escalation in interferance?

i want to be sure of what we are calling escalated crimes by russia before i agree they are in fact worse than past actions.

Hacking the DNC and the emails produced was headline news for weeks. It was one of the major stories during the campaign.

Yes. It was a huge escalation.

Huge escalation that didn't change not one American vote, but hey gotta use something to hide the broken Democrat party who decided that it was better to aggressively pursue policies that the American people hated and rebuked, otherwise instead of being the party of John Kennedy back in the day (ask not what your nation can do for you, but instead ask what you can do for your nation).

How do you know the release of that information didn’t change one American vote? Seems like that’s an unknowable statement. What we do know is that Trump and his team were elated at the hacking and dumping, used them as part of their campaign and it was a major story during the campaign.

Exactly - there is no quantifiable way of knowing what the effect was, but it was certainly in the news cycle big time.

If there is no way to quantify it, then stop saying their actions made a difference at all.

In case you didn’t notice, this was in response to someone claiming it had no difference.

Huge escalation that didn't change not one American vote,

This seems to be a recurring problem.

if we can't say whether or not a vote was changed, how can you say their efforts had an impact?

i swear to god we seem to be missing basic baseline math for how we approach our conclusions.

THIS WAS THE WORST YEAR FOR TORNADOS IN OKLAHOMA!!!

at least we have a past history to look at and compare to make that statement.

now WORST RUSSIAN INTERFERENCE EVER!!!

as compared to what past interference?

so fine - if it had a difference how to you quantify it? if you can't, then you can't say it made a difference. don't care what the situation is - baselines must be there to see any deviation.

A timeline was provided. If you don't like it, show us a better one.

THIRD FUCKING TIME - I NEVER AT ANY POINT IN TIME SAID I NEVER READ IT.

god damn you are intentionally dense as fuck sometimes.

 

[iceberg]

but that would pretty much be like every election before and what we do to others around the world on an all too regular basis

I always challenge this assertion. I don’t see this as a normal thing. Can you remember the last time Russia jacked with our election?

Russia (then USSR) has a long history of attempting to interfere with our democratic process (with the aim of showing that democracy is inherently inferior), but you are right - this level of interference, on a multinational platform, is unprecedented.

and other than hacking the DNC, just what did they do?

i know of facebook ads. what else?

Is hacking the DNC and Podesta, with the subsequent release of the info, not significant enough? It was a major event during the campaign.

1. Who hacked the DNC and Podesta ?

2. Who released the info or how was it released ?

3. Was the info released steeped in lies or truth ?

4. What was the response by the DNC and Podesta for it's info being hacked, and subsequently that information being released ?

5. How did the hackers or anyone know of such information ?

6. Was the information first obtained by insiders who had an ax to grind, and it's information location then given over to the hackers ?

Where is all this information or the answers to it all now ? Is there so much information out there, that the scene has been flooded, and the DNC has been enjoying the chaos in it all by assigning blame or using it politically in order to regain power somehow ?

The DNC blaming Trump for everything because they hate him, and hate him for spurious reasons unrelated, seems to be grounded in what should be called "operation political chaos" by them, where as you gather up negative information in what ever form it takes or it comes in, and then attempt to apply it politically for nefarious reasons, and/or for other reasons not pertaining to the need to get to the bottom of anything, but just use it for future outcomes in hopes to sway future elections.

All that information is in the Mueller report. Russia hacked the DNC and Podesta. Russia released the hacked information. The DNC hired CrowdStrike to clean out their network. Hackers used phishing to gain access to the network. It was not some “inside job”.

Oh so Russia just happened to know that the DNC was dirty, and so they were assured that they could gain success on hurting their chances by hacking and releasing dirt on them ? Out of thin air, the Russians targeted the DNC without any help from inside the workings of the DNC ??

Nothing dirty in the hacks, just embarrassing.
The Russians are opportunistic and have attempted to hack a great many things, often successfully.

New Russian Hacking Targeted Republican Groups, Microsoft Says (Published 2018)

Microsoft was surprised not that recent “spear phishing” attempts had occurred, but that they targeted traditional conservative think tanks. Those groups have been critical of Russia.

www.nytimes.com

Russia Targeted Election Systems in All 50 States, Report Finds (Published 2019)

A Senate panel documented an effort largely undetected by state and federal officials at the time. But its report was so heavily redacted that key lessons for 2020 were blacked out.

www.nytimes.com

Merkel cites ‘hard evidence’ Russian hackers targeted her

German chancellor says improving ties with Moscow is challenging following a hacking attempt and a murder in Berlin.

www.aljazeera.com

You are like an ostrich with it head in the sand.

The Democrats used unverified Russian propaganda (Steele Dossier) to illegally obtain a FISA warrant in order to spy on the Trump campaign and, after that, Trump's Presidential transition team. It wasn't the Russians interfering with the election, it was the DNC attempting an old fashioned coup.

How do you get from FISA warrant on Carter Page to old fashioned coup? Where’s the connection between those two things?

i'm still looking to find out other than "potentially / likely" hacking the DNC and facebook ads, what russia did to interfere in our elections and how that was so much more than "normal" interfering activity.

I think there are factors here not being considered.

1. They have always attempted this sort of mischief with the goal of creating chaos and division, so this is nothing new.

2. The tools available and the playing field are drastically different. By playingfield, I mean the audience they can now reach and tbe divides they can exploit. The number of people connected to the internet has increased exponentially, far ahead of our ability to handle the information. One example I remember reading about involved a pro_white demonstration coordinated by an online group. There was a counter demonstration also organized. Both to demonstrate in the same are. Both tracing back to Russian organizers. Sothat is on, non po,itical example....how much more is out there? Each one exploiting and magnifying our divides and our trust in our democratic institutions.

you're telling me what they could do.
you're telling me people fall for stupid crap when it pits one extreme side against another. 100% agreed.

but i want to know specifically what russia did to interfere in our election that makes you and others say this is MORE than normal?

what is normal and how is this more? we can either answer that or write long posts that talk about how people bitch at each other online OF WHICH everyone in here is already well aware.

Well, I would say for a starter, their hacking of DNC and collaboration with wikileaksto strategically releases it is one example. I would also add their attempted hacks at voter registration and state electoral software. That wasn’t successful yet, but it certainly ups the ante.

Is there an article that states all their 2016 activity? Wiki is anyone can edit so not sure that applies here.

Wiki also sources,.

I still don't get a baseline of past activity we compare to. In order to say this is more than usual, we need to define "usual"

well...Wikipedia gives us the best sense of a timeline:Timeline of Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections - Wikipedia

I thought Russia hacked wiki for disinformation. Now you trust them as a source?

Sources are required and if weak it's noted. You can always check the sources and decide for yourself. Do you have any other excuses for not reviewing it's timeline?

Who says I didn't review it? You are again making assumptions as to my viewpoint and what I am saying then ask me to defend shit I never said.

I simply said in one post you say Russia hacked wiki, in another post you say here look at wiki for Russian timeliness. You don't find that ironic?

Now again one of my continued issues with you is you make assumptions on how I think and feel and reply as lf those are true. How long would you tolerate my doing this to you?

What I find ironic is your constant deflecting of discussion back onto me. A timeline is provided in Wiki. You requested some sort of timeline. Now you're arguing it's not sufficient.

Provide a better one if you don't like it.

where did i say it wasn't sufficient?

again you come at me for shit i never said ASSUMING the worst so you can attack.

when you stop doing that i'll likely stop asking you to stop doing that.

Now you are just trolling. I'm done with you.

so you misquote me.
twice.

i correct you.
twice.

and i'm the troll.

you simply can't detach yourself emotionally from this and talk over the issue itself. if at one point you found me on "the other side" then to you that's where i will always be and you'll make up whatever crap you need to and attribute it to me. when i correct you, you totally ignore my telling you I DID NOT SAY THAT and keep at me as if i did.

and i'm the troll.

sigh.

 

[Coyote]

great. if you don't know then you can't say it did.

and you have still NEVER AT ANY POINT IN TIME referenced SPECIFIC actions that would have potentially altered peoples opinions of hillary.

Facebook ads? Did that do it? when they released all the ads i went and looked at around 10-15% of them and that took awhile cause there were a lot of them. 99% of the ads i saw were more EXTREME GROUP MAKES EXTREME STATEMENT TO OTHER EXTREME GROUP to play off our already existing nature to argue.

in 3 instances this am alone you refuse to go by what i have said but rather what you would like to argue against and pinning that to me as if i said it.

to be clear - i read the timelines but my questions were never about those - but about your crying RUSSIA HACKED WIKI LOOK AT WIKI HERE FOR THE TIMELINE and the vast contradiction you made in the span of i believe 4 posts. you refuse to acknowledge these things you say and keep coming at me for shit i never said.

very odd. some would say "deranged".

You are going in circles, perhaps that is an intended distraction.

You, multiple times, made a demand for something showing what Russian interference has been historically so as to make a comparison to 2016's activities. A timeline provides at least some idea.

You reject it by claiming Russia hacked Wiki (kind of bizarre to claim since it's open source for editing, doesn't need to be "hacked" and, if they did hack it I can't see why they would do it in such a way as to show themselves to be extensively hacking/interfering/etc - seems to me they'd remove a lot of that).

So you have a timeline, it links to sources, it answers your stated questions, and....now, you're busy rearranging goalposts and deflecting onto other items.

Deranged? Ya. You could be. Or just a troll.

Pick a lane. Stick to it. I'm driving in the "what has been Russia's historical norm for interfering lane) - I'm not ready to change lanes until we have exhausted this.