Zone1 Beauty Culture and Works-Based Religions: Mormons and Amish

[HikerGuy83]

While Jesus did not use this exact phrasing, His teachings in the Gospels heavily emphasized that true faith must naturally produce good actions.

So, maybe you could break this down for me.

I agree with it.

How does a person gain true faith. Or can they. The OP seems to incline towards it being there or not from the start.

 

[HikerGuy83]

We are to learn to do what is right

So doing right is a choice.

And learning is a process.

Is that correct?

 

[Meriweather]

Working????

Work seems to be a four letter word according to the OP

Martin Luther was the most prominent voice (perhaps the most frantic and distraught voice) regarding works. Luther had a rough childhood, whose father insisted on hard work and absolute obedience--or else! The Bible clearly states redemption, salvation, and a beautiful afterlife are gifts, but Luther was so entrenched in obedience and hard work it took most of his life for this to sink in. Once it did, who can blame him for going overboard on the subject?

Obedience and hard work can be beneficial and a blessing to ourselves and to others in this life. Jesus is a great example of this. Consider the story where he was so exhausted he could fall asleep on a boat traveling through stormy seas. His obedience to his Father was absolute. He often had to escape into the hills to grab a little time for himself and his prayers.

Redemption, salvation, and a heavenly afterlife are gifts. I do work hard in this life, and one of the reasons I do is because I want to be ready to work hard in the next life. I don't want to be an eternal sloth.

What SweetSue may be reminding us is that no one needs to earn his/her way to heaven because that is a gift, a blessing given us by our Heavenly Father. However, that is no reason not to give all to our works here on earth. Those works bring blessings to ourselves and to others living this life on Earth. Breathe in my O Holy Spirit that my thoughts may all be holy. Act in me O Holy Spirit that my works may all be holy.... Any holiness any of can bring to Earth is a blessing to ourselves and to one another living this life here on Earth.

Works are our gifts to others today in this life--which brings us to another Biblical thought: Cast your bread upon the waters and you will find that after many days you may find it again--along with seven or eight more portions....

 

[Meriweather]

So doing right is a choice.

And learning is a process.

Is that correct?

Yes, that is how I see it. We are all at different levels in our faith. Have you ever read Teresa of Avila's Interior Castle? She explains this well.

 

[HikerGuy83]

We can work to become more complete in our generosity, patience, sincerity, etc." Working towards completeness is not working for salvation/redemption/heaven. Salvation and redemption are God's gift to us, no matter how incomplete we are. Working towards our own completeness is our gift to God.

I was with you until this point.

We can work.....

Working towards completeness..........

not working towards salvation/redemption/heaven........

This paragraph says......and tell me where I am wrong.

1. We can work to be come more complete (i.e. perfect or whatever we call it....something better).
2. That is our gift to God.
3. But this has no impact on our redemption.
4. So, I can bypass becoming more complete and still be saved.
5. Us giving our gift of being more complete is nice, but not necessary......

That is what it seems to imply.

Let me know what I got wrong.

 

[HikerGuy83]

Redemption, salvation, and a heavenly afterlife are gifts. I do work hard in this life, and one of the reasons I do is because I want to be ready to work hard in the next life. I don't want to be an eternal sloth.

They are gifts....again....gifts we must accept.

But what you are saying is that your "hard work" in this life actually has an impact on your eternal nature.

I agree with what you are saying in principle.

And that isn't "works" in the sense that you can do with without Jesus Christ. He is what made it possible for us to have any chance of redemption and it is Atonement that works changes in our very natures as we "accept" him through effort born of true faith. But that effort has to be there.

 

[HikerGuy83]

Yes, that is how I see it. We are all at different levels in our faith. Have you ever read Teresa of Avila's Interior Castle? She explains this well.

Thank you for the clarrification. I will consider the recommendation.

 

[HikerGuy83]

What SweetSue may be reminding us is that no one needs to earn his/her way to heaven because that is a gift, a blessing given us by our Heavenly Father.

She is claiming that two groups are trying to earn their way to heaven when she knows nothing about (at least) one of them.

Again, the gift is offered. It's up to us to accept.

And when we say that:

......for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

Which the OP singles out as evidence of works based and ignoring Christ......

It is in context (written prior to the Jesus's birth):

23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

24 And, notwithstanding we believe in Christ, we keep the law of Moses, and look forward with steadfastness unto Christ, until the law shall be fulfilled.

25 For, for this end was the law given; wherefore the law hath become dead unto us, and we are made alive in Christ because of our faith; yet we keep the law because of the commandments.

26 And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins.

 

[HikerGuy83]

Yes, well Joseph Smith thought so, and then he went on to control a bunch of people and marry how many wives? How many were teenagers?

Death Estimates for the Crusades

*See also- Modern Scholars on the Casualty Rates for Participants of the First Crusade Provided below are various death estimates for the crusades to the east roughly covering the period from 1095 …

apholt.com

 

[HikerGuy83]

What SweetSue may be reminding us is that no one needs to earn his/her way to heaven because that is a gift, a blessing given us by our Heavenly Father.

This was from post #121:

If God elected them, they WILL accept Christ. Everyone who accepts Christ was elected by God to do so.

So tell me....just what does election mean?

If you not elected (and do such people exist?), you are doomed?

 

[SweetSue92]

What SweetSue may be reminding us is that no one needs to earn his/her way to heaven because that is a gift, a blessing given us by our Heavenly Father. However, that is no reason not to give all to our works here on earth. Those works bring blessings to ourselves and to others living this life on Earth. Breathe in my O Holy Spirit that my thoughts may all be holy. Act in me O Holy Spirit that my works may all be holy.... Any holiness any of can bring to Earth is a blessing to ourselves and to one another living this life here on Earth.

Works are our gifts to others today in this life--which brings us to another Biblical thought: Cast your bread upon the waters and you will find that after many days you may find it again--along with seven or eight more portions....

Yes, this. To quote the old children's song: "We love because God first loved us". We can and do good works to build His kingdom ONLY through the work of the Holy Spirit, given on conversion. Our good works do not earn us Heaven. They never could. That's why Jesus had to come....and die.

 

[SweetSue92]

This was from post #121:



So tell me....just what does election mean?

If you not elected (and do such people exist?), you are doomed?

Yes.

The truth is that we are so hard-hearted, so utterly depraved, that none of us would ever choose Christ on our own. We CAN'T.

God can, and did.

And yes, it seems harsh, and even cruel. But remember, God said, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion" (Romans 9:15).

In the midst of the hard truth, I know that God is still ultimately just, and will treat everyone--saved and unsaved--as they should be treated on the Last day.

 

[Meriweather]

I was with you until this point.

We can work.....

Working towards completeness..........

not working towards salvation/redemption/heaven........

This paragraph says......and tell me where I am wrong.

1. We can work to be come more complete (i.e. perfect or whatever we call it....something better).
2. That is our gift to God.
3. But this has no impact on our redemption.
4. So, I can bypass becoming more complete and still be saved.
5. Us giving our gift of being more complete is nice, but not necessary......

That is what it seems to imply.

Let me know what I got wrong.

I have always rejected the word "saved". I don't like it. We are all redeemed and all who want it, can enter into salvation. I liked an analogy one of the nuns told us when I was in elementary school. Someone asked if all would be equally happy in heaven. She said, "All of you will be full of happiness! However, do you want to be a thimble full of happiness or an oak barrel full of happiness? In either case you will have all the happiness you can contain or can want."

As for myself: God is holy. What I strive to work on in my daily life is whatever it is I do, or whatever it is that comes my way, is to choose to do what is holy. I find (at least for myself) that is the most difficult, the hardest work of all. Do I do it to get into heaven? No. I do it to prepare myself for heaven--and in my own tiny way, to make the earthy just a tiny bit more holy. I see myself as a worker in the vineyard of the Lord. I've been there all my life, and I feel blessed by that. However, I know--and I am joyful knowing--that those who come to work in the vineyard even in their last seconds will receive the exact same reward as I. I am just thankful I got to be one of the early workers in the vineyard.

Not sure if this answers your question?

 

[Meriweather]

So tell me....just what does election mean?

If you not elected (and do such people exist?), you are doomed?

My paternal grandparents, later in life, became Calvinists, so I studied it a little--but only a little. They believe in the Elect. From what I gather, before the creation of the world, God chose the elect, those who would enter into His salvation.

This can be read one of two ways: Since we are in the world God created, the intent is that all in this world will enter into salvation. However, we all have free will, and people can choose to refuse salvation. Others read this as some (God's elect) are predestined for salvation and some are not.

 

[HikerGuy83]

Yes.

The truth is that we are so hard-hearted, so utterly depraved, that none of us would ever choose Christ on our own. We CAN'T.

God can, and did.

And yes, it seems harsh, and even cruel. But remember, God said, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion" (Romans 9:15).

In the midst of the hard truth, I know that God is still ultimately just, and will treat everyone--saved and unsaved--as they should be treated on the Last day.

I have heard this from some other "Christians".

Agreed he is just.......

But the entire exercise is for nothing. Your are talking pre-destination.

 

[HikerGuy83]

My paternal grandparents, later in life, became Calvinists, so I studied it a little--but only a little. They believe in the Elect. From what I gather, before the creation of the world, God chose the elect, those who would enter into His salvation.

That's what I am getting from the OP.

I'll just say, the theology I adhere to does not agree.

It completely kills the idea if agency.

 

[HikerGuy83]

I have always rejected the word "saved". I don't like it. We are all redeemed and all who want it, can enter into salvation. I liked an analogy one of the nuns told us when I was in elementary school. Someone asked if all would be equally happy in heaven. She said, "All of you will be full of happiness! However, do you want to be a thimble full of happiness or an oak barrel full of happiness? In either case you will have all the happiness you can contain or can want."

So, are you familiar with the LDS concept of the 3 kingdoms?

 

[HikerGuy83]

As for myself: God is holy. What I strive to work on in my daily life is whatever it is I do, or whatever it is that comes my way, is to choose to do what is holy. I find (at least for myself) that is the most difficult, the hardest work of all.

We teach that "men are that they might have joy".

And true joy comes with being in tune with Christ. And you get there by obdience (true obedience......not just checking boxes).

In that sense, it's not that hard.

What is difficult is having patience with ourselves like He has patience with us.

Hebrews 5 teaches that Christ "learned" and we do the same (it's just that we are not God)

Isaiah
9 ¶ Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

Do I do it to get into heaven?

What is heaven to you?

Ultimately, we do it to please the Father & Son because we love them John 14:15. But this is not a take-it-or-leave it statement.

No. I do it to prepare myself for heaven--and in my own tiny way, to make the earthy just a tiny bit more holy. I see myself as a worker in the vineyard of the Lord. I've been there all my life, and I feel blessed by that. However, I know--and I am joyful knowing--that those who come to work in the vineyard even in their last seconds will receive the exact same reward as I. I am just thankful I got to be one of the early workers in the vineyard.

O.K.

Gonna give this a thumbs up "in general".

 

[OhPleaseJustQuit]

A symbol of who they are and what they stand for is not "works-based" faith. The Amish have not forgotten that modesty is a virtue, and dress appropriately. They value the privacy of the body.

Take up your cross and follow me is a central Gospel teaching. Just would no one object to it as a "works-based" faith, neither are the examples above "work-based."

.

It's always such a joy to see the young women when I shop at the Hutterite Colony. Sweet, quiet, friendly and modest.

Such a change from the sullen, surly, sluttish girls I see elsewhere.

Shopping is a joy too. The best honey I've ever had came from the Hutterite Colony. Wonderful baked goods, garden produce and meat products.

 

[Meriweather]

So, are you familiar with the LDS concept of the 3 kingdoms?

No. For other reasons, I am not a fan of LDS theology. This aside, my experience that, some of their beliefs aside, they are sincere and faithful adherents to Christian living. Perhaps I'll have a chance to Google the 3 kingdoms a bit later so that I can discuss it at least somewhat coherently.