At what point the USA will launch nukes?

Zavulon

Gold Member
Apr 25, 2024
2,056
459
178
Moscow
Disclaimer: It's just an intellectual exercise. All matches with real-life states and political forces are accidental.


Let's play a little game about nuclear deterrence type II during totally hypothetical Second American-Mexican War.



Mexico, backed with Latino-American Alliance, Russia, China (and the whole Shanghai block) try to return Texas, California, New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada, Utah, Colorado and part of Wyoming (they see them as parts of Mexico) and establish there military bases of Shanghai block as a first goal.
Their final officially declared goal is "total decolonisation of the Northern America" which, in practical terms, means death or expelling all "occupants" - Americans of European, Asian and African origin. Your enemies, you call them all "[political] Indians" for short (while its not really accurate), are a conglomerate of China-financed and Russia-armed political and military groups (from Roman Catholic "Crusaders" to Neo-Paganic descendants of Maya Indians) already proved the seriousness of their intentions to kill all Gringos, by commiting numerous acts of mass-murders and genocide.

The only thing that keeps Shanghai block and Latino-American Alliance from joint, coordinated and direct attack against the USA is American nuclear weapons and determiness of the POTUS to use it when the very existence of the USA is on stake.
Of course, Americans are very interested in the prevention of their genocide and fight bravery, but, slowly but steadily, Shanghai block is increasing support of Mexican "Indians", by sending them modern weapons, "mercenaries" and "advisors". Eventually, may be really soon, they will give them nukes to terrorise American cities.

American Generals suggested some nuclear options:
  • no nukes at all, however provokative Indians are. It means that eventually Mexicans will nuke American cities. Or, fighting against overwhelmingly numerical superior enemy the USA will lose the war of atriction.
  • limited nuclear strikes against some Mexican military sites. It may impress Russia and China, but it's not likely that it will really push them back. They will likely continue "support the rightful war of Mexico in the liberation of their lands".
  • limited nuclear strike against Venezuela or other member of Latino-American Alliance. It will decrease their actual military capabilities, but may cause uncontrolled escalation (and the first nuclear strike from Shanghai blick and Latino-American Alliance.
  • well-planned, decisive and coordinated nuclear attack against nuclear forces of Russia and China with further attempt to coerce them into peace. May be, their retaliation will kill 20 mln of Americans max, but then you'll be safe to kill as much of Indians as necessary, without possible retaliation. Actually, if Russia and China are really determined to genocide Americans by Indian hands - it is the only possible (but very expansive) way to win the war.

So, the question - at what point and against whom, the USA should launch their first nuclear strike? Or suggest other options.
 
Disclaimer: It's just an intellectual exercise. All matches with real-life states and political forces are accidental.


Let's play a little game about nuclear deterrence type II during totally hypothetical Second American-Mexican War.



Mexico, backed with Latino-American Alliance, Russia, China (and the whole Shanghai block) try to return Texas, California, New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada, Utah, Colorado and part of Wyoming (they see them as parts of Mexico) and establish there military bases of Shanghai block as a first goal.
Their final officially declared goal is "total decolonisation of the Northern America" which, in practical terms, means death or expelling all "occupants" - Americans of European, Asian and African origin. Your enemies, you call them all "[political] Indians" for short (while its not really accurate), are a conglomerate of China-financed and Russia-armed political and military groups (from Roman Catholic "Crusaders" to Neo-Paganic descendants of Maya Indians) already proved the seriousness of their intentions to kill all Gringos, by commiting numerous acts of mass-murders and genocide.

The only thing that keeps Shanghai block and Latino-American Alliance from joint, coordinated and direct attack against the USA is American nuclear weapons and determiness of the POTUS to use it when the very existence of the USA is on stake.
Of course, Americans are very interested in the prevention of their genocide and fight bravery, but, slowly but steadily, Shanghai block is increasing support of Mexican "Indians", by sending them modern weapons, "mercenaries" and "advisors". Eventually, may be really soon, they will give them nukes to terrorise American cities.

American Generals suggested some nuclear options:
  • no nukes at all, however provokative Indians are. It means that eventually Mexicans will nuke American cities. Or, fighting against overwhelmingly numerical superior enemy the USA will lose the war of atriction.
  • limited nuclear strikes against some Mexican military sites. It may impress Russia and China, but it's not likely that it will really push them back. They will likely continue "support the rightful war of Mexico in the liberation of their lands".
  • limited nuclear strike against Venezuela or other member of Latino-American Alliance. It will decrease their actual military capabilities, but may cause uncontrolled escalation (and the first nuclear strike from Shanghai blick and Latino-American Alliance.
  • well-planned, decisive and coordinated nuclear attack against nuclear forces of Russia and China with further attempt to coerce them into peace. May be, their retaliation will kill 20 mln of Americans max, but then you'll be safe to kill as much of Indians as necessary, without possible retaliation. Actually, if Russia and China are really determined to genocide Americans by Indian hands - it is the only possible (but very expansive) way to win the war.

So, the question - at what point and against whom, the USA should launch their first nuclear strike? Or suggest other options.
Too funny~

The US will never use nukes in a first strike scenario. That's a Russian fantasy.

You actually envisioned Mexico launching nukes against US...really?
Your scenario is bad sci-fi.

More likely, by far, is that Putin will use tac-nukes against Chechnya.

1733524891285.jpeg
 
Too funny~

The US will never use nukes in a first strike scenario. That's a Russian fantasy.
Really? In this scenario it means that Russia and China can, for example, send their own "volonteers" (50 mln of them) in Mexico with their modern weapons and equipment. And then the USA are f#cked.

You actually envisioned Mexico launching nukes against US...really?
Why not? If you say that USA wouldn't attack first - Russia and China can do whatever they want. And Latino-American are anyway expendable for them.

Your scenario is bad sci-fi.
It is more or less mirroring the actual Russia-NATO conflict.

More likely, by far, is that Putin will use tac-nukes against Chechnya.

View attachment 1050914
Chechnya nowadays is one of the most loyal regions of Russia.
 
I assume that we would respond in kind to any attack or military invasion on our soil. I hope we would not resort to nuclear weapons otherwise.
 
Disclaimer: It's just an intellectual exercise. All matches with real-life states and political forces are accidental.


Let's play a little game about nuclear deterrence type II during totally hypothetical Second American-Mexican War.



Mexico, backed with Latino-American Alliance, Russia, China (and the whole Shanghai block) try to return Texas, California, New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada, Utah, Colorado and part of Wyoming (they see them as parts of Mexico) and establish there military bases of Shanghai block as a first goal.
Their final officially declared goal is "total decolonisation of the Northern America" which, in practical terms, means death or expelling all "occupants" - Americans of European, Asian and African origin. Your enemies, you call them all "[political] Indians" for short (while its not really accurate), are a conglomerate of China-financed and Russia-armed political and military groups (from Roman Catholic "Crusaders" to Neo-Paganic descendants of Maya Indians) already proved the seriousness of their intentions to kill all Gringos, by commiting numerous acts of mass-murders and genocide.

The only thing that keeps Shanghai block and Latino-American Alliance from joint, coordinated and direct attack against the USA is American nuclear weapons and determiness of the POTUS to use it when the very existence of the USA is on stake.
Of course, Americans are very interested in the prevention of their genocide and fight bravery, but, slowly but steadily, Shanghai block is increasing support of Mexican "Indians", by sending them modern weapons, "mercenaries" and "advisors". Eventually, may be really soon, they will give them nukes to terrorise American cities.

American Generals suggested some nuclear options:
  • no nukes at all, however provokative Indians are. It means that eventually Mexicans will nuke American cities. Or, fighting against overwhelmingly numerical superior enemy the USA will lose the war of atriction.
  • limited nuclear strikes against some Mexican military sites. It may impress Russia and China, but it's not likely that it will really push them back. They will likely continue "support the rightful war of Mexico in the liberation of their lands".
  • limited nuclear strike against Venezuela or other member of Latino-American Alliance. It will decrease their actual military capabilities, but may cause uncontrolled escalation (and the first nuclear strike from Shanghai blick and Latino-American Alliance.
  • well-planned, decisive and coordinated nuclear attack against nuclear forces of Russia and China with further attempt to coerce them into peace. May be, their retaliation will kill 20 mln of Americans max, but then you'll be safe to kill as much of Indians as necessary, without possible retaliation. Actually, if Russia and China are really determined to genocide Americans by Indian hands - it is the only possible (but very expansive) way to win the war.

So, the question - at what point and against whom, the USA should launch their first nuclear strike? Or suggest other options.

The US won't nuke Mexico ever because we are upwind.
 
I assume that we would respond in kind to any attack or military invasion on our soil. I hope we would not resort to nuclear weapons otherwise.
Yes. But how exactly will you use nukes - starting with nuking Mexico (and Mexicans are expendable for the Eurasian Axis anyway), risking with uncontrollable escalation, or nuke nuclear forces of Russia and China, forcing them to finish support of Latino-Americans and sign a mutually acceptable (but US-preffered) peace treaty.
 
Ok.
So far, nobody suggested to return Texas, California, New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada, Utah, Colorado and part of Wyoming to Mexico or to "freeze" military actions while the frontline is going through "disputed" US/Mexican territories allowing Russia and China deploy there their forces, including medium range missiles, right?
 
Last edited:
Mexico, backed with Latino-American Alliance, Russia, China (and the whole Shanghai block) try to return Texas, California, New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada, Utah, Colorado and part of Wyoming (they see them as parts of Mexico) and establish there military bases of Shanghai block as a first goal.

You are aware that at least two of those were independent nations before they joined the US, right? One of them was an independent nation for over a decade before deciding to join the US.

This is the problem with bad propaganda. It demands that people simply dismiss all of real history, and accept without question their bad retelling of history.

The fact is, all of "Mexico" that joined the US were in revolt at the time that happened. Most specifically, in revolt (along with most of the rest of Mexico) against President Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna. A man that was the President of Mexico a staggering 11 times. And in each and every time his abuses of the Constitution and violent reprisals against those violations caused unrest and revolts all through Mexico.

But please, do not just take my word for it. Unlike most in here, I actually encourage others to not just believe what I say, but to look up the facts for themselves. To actually question me and discover the facts. But it is a fact, there were multiple revolts while he was President. Most times resolved quite violently by the Mexican Military. Where their demanding of "El Degüello" was actually common. When the military shows up, either all surrender immediately, or there would be no surrender. Unless all resistance ended at the start, nobody would be spared.

That was commonly used during the Santa Anna Administrations, which is why in later years much of Mexico would rise up in revolt as soon as he returned to power. So this is a complete fantasy that the US "stole" land from Mexico. Most of that territory, Mexico lost with no intervention from the US at all. In fact, it can largely be said that the number of nations now joining NATO in response to Russian aggression is almost the exact same thing that caused former Mexican territory to join the US after seeing Mexican aggression.

Something I am actually laughing about, as we have seen so many times before some seem completely oblivious to. Because they have never actually learned real history, they only know bad propaganda.
 
So far, nobody suggested to return Texas, California, New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada, Utah, Colorado and part of Wyoming to Mexico

Why should they?

Are you even aware that all of those areas were either independent nations, or in active revolt against Mexico?

Hell, the Mexican Governor of California, Mariano Guadalupe Vallejo actually supported the Bear Flag Revolt, and then the US annexation of California. He like many others were pissed at the Mexican Government, including Santa Anna.

True fact, once again. at one point the Mexican Government tried to replace Vallejo as the Governor of California. And in order to do so, they raised a force of 300 criminals from Mexican prisons and sent them north to relieve him of his duties. However, that did not last long as there was no provision for the criminals to actually be paid. So one Governor Vallejo was out, they quickly resorted to looting the locals as they were not being paid by Mexico. And less than three years later, the "New Governor" was out, most of the criminals were imprisoner, killed, or sent back to Mexico with their Governor in disgrace and Mariano Vallejo was back in power.

But California an Texas return to Mexico? I guess the OP is not even aware that the people that lived there even at the time no longer wanted to be a part of Mexico. That is why they all revolted and either left or were in the process of leaving.

Kinda like how most of the Warsaw Pact once the Soviet Union broke up turned their back on Russia and wanted nothing to do with them.

I find it funny that the irony is completely lost on the OP.
 
But how exactly will you use nukes - starting with nuking Mexico (and Mexicans are expendable for the Eurasian Axis anyway)

Simple answer, they will not.

The Mexican military is so bad that they can not even control the criminals in their own nation. Most of Mexico is at the current time in largely the state it is always in. Largely run by criminals and gangs, with the military allowed to do almost nothing but let it happen.

I can only imagine you have no idea what it is actually like. The funny thing is, I actually lived on the border myself for many years. Where morning traffic reports would actually tell drivers to avoid certain roads because decapitated bodies were hanging from freeway overpasses, so drivers should avoid them. Or hearing about drug rehabilitation centers being barricaded and set on fire with none of the patients allowed to leave. Or finding mass graves in the desert with a score of bodies or more inside.

And this was true when I first moved there almost two decades ago, it is still true today. Juarez had over 300 freaking murders in the first three months of 2024.

EL PASO, Texas (Border Report) – Police in Juarez, Mexico, early Monday responded to the scene of a double murder in the city’s south side. Officers found the bodies – with signs of torture and gunshot wounds to the head – abandoned on a street near La Cuesta neighborhood.

The find brought the number of homicides in the city this year above 300. That’s an average of 3.3 murders per day.

Juarez for most of the last two decades has had higher murder rates than the deaths in actual war zones like Iraq and Afghanistan. There is a reason it is known as the "Deadliest city in the world", and so many from Mexico are trying to get into the US. The government is largely a failure, and people are trying to get away from it. And you think that they would want to try and take that land back, up to 200 years later?

Once again, you show you do not know history at all. You know, that has actually been tried before, right? Back in 1917, a high ranking member of the German Foreign Office sent the "Zimmermann Telegram" to Mexico, largely proposing the exact same thing. And the response of the Mexican Government to the offers of financial and military assistance to help them take back the land now occupied by the US was more or less "Hold on a minute, are you nucking futs?"



And you honestly think that that things almost 108 years later would be any different? Hell, in 2017 it was not long after the Mexican Government actually welcomed the intervention of the US military in helping them put down a revolt in their own nation. And at that point there was not a hell of a lot of difference between the two militaries. Other than the US had just started to use trucks for logistics and aircraft for reconnaissance.

The disparity between the two nations is even more vast today. Are you even aware that the Mexican Army does not even have tanks? Yep, that's right, not a single one. Their most advanced artillery is the M101, the same freaking artillery the US used in WWII. And no joke, their "Infantry Transport Vehicles" are the Chevy Silverado and Ford F-150.

The offensive capability of their entire Air Force is 63 Swiss made PC-7 trainer aircraft that have been modified as a light attack aircraft, and 4 F-5 Tiger II fighters from the 1960s. Holy hell, the US has more offensive capability in the OPFOR used to train the German Air Force and other foreign nationals at Holloman Air Force Base in New Mexico than all of the Mexican Air Force combined. And the US has more offensive capability at Fort Bliss (El Paso) than all of the Mexican Army combined.

This is completely delusional in the extreme. Obviously written by somebody that has never actually been in Mexico. Even if all of the forces available in Russia and China were somehow magically transported to Mexico, such an attack would be a complete wipe. Especially as within 200 miles of the US-Mexico border are a great many major US military bases. Including major Marine, Army, and Air Force bases.

And to drive that home even more, if some have been in a coma for the past 15 years, Army Armor is no longer at Fort Knox. It has not been for a long time. The Tanks of the US Army are now primarily based at El Paso. And the US Air Defense is still based there as well. And you can quite literally shoot a bullet from Fort Bliss, and have it land in Mexico.
 
Why should they?

Are you even aware that all of those areas were either independent nations, or in active revolt against Mexico?

Hell, the Mexican Governor of California, Mariano Guadalupe Vallejo actually supported the Bear Flag Revolt, and then the US annexation of California. He like many others were pissed at the Mexican Government, including Santa Anna.

True fact, once again. at one point the Mexican Government tried to replace Vallejo as the Governor of California. And in order to do so, they raised a force of 300 criminals from Mexican prisons and sent them north to relieve him of his duties. However, that did not last long as there was no provision for the criminals to actually be paid. So one Governor Vallejo was out, they quickly resorted to looting the locals as they were not being paid by Mexico. And less than three years later, the "New Governor" was out, most of the criminals were imprisoner, killed, or sent back to Mexico with their Governor in disgrace and Mariano Vallejo was back in power.

But California an Texas return to Mexico? I guess the OP is not even aware that the people that lived there even at the time no longer wanted to be a part of Mexico. That is why they all revolted and either left or were in the process of leaving.

Kinda like how most of the Warsaw Pact once the Soviet Union broke up turned their back on Russia and wanted nothing to do with them.

I find it funny that the irony is completely lost on the OP.
Bla-bla-bla. In our example neither China, nor Russia, nor Latinoamerican Alliance care about those Mexican "revolutions of dignity" or true nature of Mexico's Junta now or even lesser in the past. Their declared goals are:
1) borders of 1820;
2) Mexico's membership in Shanghai block (and deployment of Russian and Chinese IRBMs there);
3) Decolonisation of Northern America.

And those goals are totally unacceptable for the USA.
 
Simple answer, they will not.

The Mexican military is so bad that they can not even control the criminals in their own nation. Most of Mexico is at the current time in largely the state it is always in. Largely run by criminals and gangs, with the military allowed to do almost nothing but let it happen.

I can only imagine you have no idea what it is actually like. The funny thing is, I actually lived on the border myself for many years. Where morning traffic reports would actually tell drivers to avoid certain roads because decapitated bodies were hanging from freeway overpasses, so drivers should avoid them. Or hearing about drug rehabilitation centers being barricaded and set on fire with none of the patients allowed to leave. Or finding mass graves in the desert with a score of bodies or more inside.

And this was true when I first moved there almost two decades ago, it is still true today. Juarez had over 300 freaking murders in the first three months of 2024.



Juarez for most of the last two decades has had higher murder rates than the deaths in actual war zones like Iraq and Afghanistan. There is a reason it is known as the "Deadliest city in the world", and so many from Mexico are trying to get into the US. The government is largely a failure, and people are trying to get away from it. And you think that they would want to try and take that land back, up to 200 years later?

Once again, you show you do not know history at all. You know, that has actually been tried before, right? Back in 1917, a high ranking member of the German Foreign Office sent the "Zimmermann Telegram" to Mexico, largely proposing the exact same thing. And the response of the Mexican Government to the offers of financial and military assistance to help them take back the land now occupied by the US was more or less "Hold on a minute, are you nucking futs?"



And you honestly think that that things almost 108 years later would be any different? Hell, in 2017 it was not long after the Mexican Government actually welcomed the intervention of the US military in helping them put down a revolt in their own nation. And at that point there was not a hell of a lot of difference between the two militaries. Other than the US had just started to use trucks for logistics and aircraft for reconnaissance.

The disparity between the two nations is even more vast today. Are you even aware that the Mexican Army does not even have tanks? Yep, that's right, not a single one. Their most advanced artillery is the M101, the same freaking artillery the US used in WWII. And no joke, their "Infantry Transport Vehicles" are the Chevy Silverado and Ford F-150.

The offensive capability of their entire Air Force is 63 Swiss made PC-7 trainer aircraft that have been modified as a light attack aircraft, and 4 F-5 Tiger II fighters from the 1960s. Holy hell, the US has more offensive capability in the OPFOR used to train the German Air Force and other foreign nationals at Holloman Air Force Base in New Mexico than all of the Mexican Air Force combined. And the US has more offensive capability at Fort Bliss (El Paso) than all of the Mexican Army combined.

This is completely delusional in the extreme. Obviously written by somebody that has never actually been in Mexico. Even if all of the forces available in Russia and China were somehow magically transported to Mexico, such an attack would be a complete wipe. Especially as within 200 miles of the US-Mexico border are a great many major US military bases. Including major Marine, Army, and Air Force bases.

And to drive that home even more, if some have been in a coma for the past 15 years, Army Armor is no longer at Fort Knox. It has not been for a long time. The Tanks of the US Army are now primarily based at El Paso. And the US Air Defense is still based there as well. And you can quite literally shoot a bullet from Fort Bliss, and have it land in Mexico.

In reality - yes. But in our exercise Mexicans are simply hired guns of China and Russia. Corrupted and incompetent Mexican government just sell ordinary citizens of Mexico as cannon fodder. Hundreds of billions of Chinese dollars as well as Russian weapons and equipments, Cuban commissars and Venezuelan mercenaries allow them to keep their state more or less in line.
Finish this support and Mexico will collapse in weeks, but while Russia and China feel themselves safe - they just see the situation as an opportunity to kill some Americans, destroy some American equipment and distract America from other theaters for relatively reasonable money.
 
And I am sure that some will think I am making up what I stated in my last post. I assure you, I am not. I lived along the US-Mexico Border for many years, and that was actually something we would hear on the radio fairly regularly. Even my wife who was from South America was often shocked at the things we experienced living on the US-Mexican Border.

And a warning, only go to the links if you have a strong stomach. Unlike in much of the world, Mexican news sources often show quite graphic photos in their reports.

Mexican police have found the bodies of nine people hanging from a bridge and seven more corpses hacked up and dumped on the road.

Authorities in one of Mexico's largest cities said Friday they have found seven bodies with five of them decapitated and another completely dismembered — with a message on each corpse — in a car left in the middle of traffic on a main expressway.

Mexican authorities have pulled several bodies from a clandestine grave less than a mile from the U.S. border at San Elizario, Texas. It’s in the same neighborhood where they located the remains of eight homicide victims last September.

“We have found six bodies so far,” Chihuahua Deputy Attorney General Carlos Manuel Salas told a KTSM/Border Report camera crew. “We have conducted intensive searches for the past three to four weeks related to information we received about (Martin Gallegos). We have found several bodies, and we will keep looking.”

Five people, including possibly a boy of about 10 years of age, were killed by gunmen who attacked a funeral vigil for a homicide victim late Friday night at a home in Juárez.

Mourners were holding a vigil for a person who had been killed days earlier when armed men arrived in two cars and a pickup and opened fire outside a home on Alanis street and Libiano Galaviz streets in the Heroes de la Revolucion neighborhood next to the Juárez airport, ElHeraldo de Juárez reported.

The mass killing was part of continuing cycles of violence believed to be linked to fighting among drug gangs that has left more than 100 dead in Juárez in the first month of 2024. There had been more than a dozen killings over the weekend.

And notice one thing I readily do that the OP does not do, I actually provide sources. I myself was shocked when I first moved to El Paso, and then later just looked on in bemusement when others would arrive and get the same shock after hearing a "routine morning traffic report". Because that actually was a weekly occurrence. "Avoid Highway XXX, as there are five decapitated bodies hanging from the overpass at Avinada YYY.
 
In reality - yes. But in our exercise Mexicans are simply hired guns of China and Russia. Corrupted and incompetent Mexican government just sell ordinary citizens of Mexico as cannon fodder. Hundreds of billions of Chinese dollars as well as Russian weapons and equipment, Cuban commissars and Venezuelan mercenaries allow them to keep their state more or less in line.
Finish this support and Mexico will collapse in weeks, but while Russia and China feel themselves safe - they just see the situation as an opportunity to kill some Americans, destroy some American equipment and distract America from other theaters for relatively reasonable money.
Zav there is no way that you are going to convince any American that:
1. Ukraine is Russian property
2. Russia will launch nukes at the US and NATO unless NATO gives Russia their 1997 borders as part of the peace deal, OR ELSE...
3. Russia will destroy the US and NATO nuclear responses with their fancy new Oreshnik Mach-10 first strike missile
4. To end the nuclear war the US would gladly give Russia Alaska and California

Here in the US we'd say you really need to take your meds. That sequence is actually hilarious, because its so stupid.
 
And I am sure that some will think I am making up what I stated in my last post. I assure you, I am not. I lived along the US-Mexico Border for many years, and that was actually something we would hear on the radio fairly regularly. Even my wife who was from South America was often shocked at the things we experienced living on the US-Mexican Border.

And a warning, only go to the links if you have a strong stomach. Unlike in much of the world, Mexican news sources often show quite graphic photos in their reports.









And notice one thing I readily do that the OP does not do, I actually provide sources. I myself was shocked when I first moved to El Paso, and then later just looked on in bemusement when others would arrive and get the same shock after hearing a "routine morning traffic report". Because that actually was a weekly occurrence. "Avoid Highway XXX, as there are five decapitated bodies hanging from the overpass at Avinada YYY.
As I already said in disclaimer - all possible matches with the real states are coincidental.
On the Earth-2 (which is our strategical sandbox) all carthels were united by Russian GRU and Chinese Triads and now they are running the state.
 

Forum List

Back
Top