Ask a Catholic

[Meriweather]

The issue here is whether there is intelligence or not. There are trees that can detect when they're being attacked and then communicate with other trees in the neighborhood and they all start producing stuff to protect themselves. Is this intelligence?

There is intelligence, and there are reflex actions. Sneezing, blinking, automatically brushing away insects are examples of reflex actions in humans. I suspect all life, including trees, have reflex actions. I would hypothesize that what you describe in trees as a reflex action, but I don't know. Even if it is a reflex action, there is still the question of does a tree have both reflex actions and intelligence? I don't know.

 

[Meriweather]

We pretend we have some kind of free will, but really is it free will? Or are we simply a product of our genes, our experiences etc? Can we really make a choice?

And if we can't, then intelligence is just like a tree's intelligence. It just happens.

If so, isn't it easy to think that it's just a massive interplay of forces at an atomic level or lower?

Yes, humans can and do make choices, but within limited parameters. For example, I mightily disagreed with how bureaucrats and government handled the pandemic, but there was/is very little I could do about it. I think many of us feel this way about many political decisions. Hopefully, the decisions we do make are influenced by our experiences. When we were teens my best friend and I often discussed how sometimes life seemed to be a kind of spiral--many of the things we got wrong had a tendency to circle around again until we got them right.

 

[Meriweather]

As for the excommunication of pro-choice politicians, that remedy is customarily reserved for those who publicly commit overt acts that are seriously immoral. As a general proposition, it is up to each Catholic to determine whether s/he is in a state of serious sin and should forego Communion. Some priest and at least one Bishop have dis-invited Biden, Pelosi, and a few others from receiving communion in their churches, but they ain't gonna put up no fences to prevent it.

"Catholic" means open and welcoming to all. That is one side of the seesaw. The other side is about striving to be "perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect". The Church stands for ideals and calls for people to live up to those ideals. Sins, of course, are forgiven.

There is a difference between failures of living up to ideals and disagreeing with the ideals. Those who adamantly disagree (and speak against) these ideals should be excommunicated because they no longer hold the Catholic position, they speak against it.

 

[ding]

As for the excommunication of pro-choice politicians, that remedy is customarily reserved for those who publicly commit overt acts that are seriously immoral. As a general proposition, it is up to each Catholic to determine whether s/he is in a state of serious sin and should forego Communion. Some priest and at least one Bishop have dis-invited Biden, Pelosi, and a few others from receiving communion in their churches, but they ain't gonna put up no fences to prevent it.

"Catholic" means open and welcoming to all. That is one side of the seesaw. The other side is about striving to be "perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect". The Church stands for ideals and calls for people to live up to those ideals. Sins, of course, are forgiven.

There is a difference between failures of living up to ideals and disagreeing with the ideals. Those who adamantly disagree (and speak against) these ideals should be excommunicated because they no longer hold the Catholic position, they speak against it.

Being perfect does not mean doing perfect things. Reasons for excommunication are apostasy, heresy, schism, desecration of a consecrated host, physical attacks on the Pope (go figure), sacramental absolution of an accomplice in sin against the Sixth and Ninth commandments, unauthorized episcopal (bishop) consecration and the direct violation of confessional seal by confessor. If murder can be forgiven and is not grounds for excommunication, then why would abortion be different?

Lastly, all Catholics are the Body of Christ, as such each member has standing in the community. Growth filled communities should explore all sides of an issue to arrive at objective truth. Arguing that those who disagree with the Church's positions (mind you not the theology of Catholicism) should be excommunicated is a dangerous proposition. God loves diversity. He created it. So maybe that's why we don't see the Church excommunicating women who have had abortions or doctors who perform abortions or politicians who support abortions.

At the end of the day some compassion is called for. These things are a process. A process which is better served by retaining ties whenever practicable and gently guiding the flock. Which can't be done if one is kicked out of the flock.

 

[Meriweather]

If murder can be forgiven and is not grounds for excommunication, then why would abortion be different?

The issue is not whether women receiving abortions can be forgiven. Of course sins are forgiven.

The issue being discussed is about those promoting abortion. Would the Church ignore those calling for, or even dismissing, murder? Adultery? Theft? This lies more in line with "Better a millstone be tied around the neck of someone encouraging little ones to sin."

Picture President Biden or Speaker Pelosi at the Gate saying proudly to St. Peter, "I never had an abortion!" And St. Peter pointing to the crowds of women whom they encouraged to seek an abortion. What a person might be proud of here on earth is not necessarily the same thing they would be proud of at the Gates of Heaven.

 

[BreezeWood]

As for the excommunication of pro-choice politicians, that remedy is customarily reserved for those who publicly commit overt acts that are seriously immoral. As a general proposition, it is up to each Catholic to determine whether s/he is in a state of serious sin and should forego Communion. Some priest and at least one Bishop have dis-invited Biden, Pelosi, and a few others from receiving communion in their churches, but they ain't gonna put up no fences to prevent it.

"Catholic" means open and welcoming to all. That is one side of the seesaw. The other side is about striving to be "perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect". The Church stands for ideals and calls for people to live up to those ideals. Sins, of course, are forgiven.

There is a difference between failures of living up to ideals and disagreeing with the ideals. Those who adamantly disagree (and speak against) these ideals should be excommunicated because they no longer hold the Catholic position, they speak against it.

.

The other side is about striving to be "perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect".

Being perfect does not mean doing perfect things. Reasons for excommunication are ...

.
there is no such thing as "perfect" - the 1st century was a reaffirmation of the religion of antiquity where the final goal for admission to the Everlasting for the religious and secular is the accomplished state of - purity - the triumph against evil.

by admission of this thread, catholicism is a political endeavor deceivingly disguised as a religion for nefarious purposes by self motivated adherents - bing . meriweather - sinners indeed.

 

[ding]

If murder can be forgiven and is not grounds for excommunication, then why would abortion be different?

The issue is not whether women receiving abortions can be forgiven. Of course sins are forgiven.

The issue being discussed is about those promoting abortion. Would the Church ignore those calling for, or even dismissing, murder? Adultery? Theft? This lies more in line with "Better a millstone be tied around the neck of someone encouraging little ones to sin."

Picture President Biden or Speaker Pelosi at the Gate saying proudly to St. Peter, "I never had an abortion!" And St. Peter pointing to the crowds of women whom they encouraged to seek an abortion. What a person might be proud of here on earth is not necessarily the same thing they would be proud of at the Gates of Heaven.

How did they encourage women to have abortions? I think you need to find a different word. You could say they enabled abortions and that would be an accurate statement. But I don't believe they are encouraging anyone to have an abortion.

And what about the rest of what I wrote? Do you really want everyone to be blindly obedient? To never speak out? To not offer a different thought? And what about compassion? What good will come from excommunicating people who support abortion? What message is that sending? Did Christ die for just some of our sins?

Personally I don't see how anyone can justify that abortion is a good thing. But I don't believe that excommunicating people for it will solve the problem. It is not virtuous if you are forced to be virtuous.

 

[Meriweather]

How did they encourage women to have abortions?

By favoring/approving abortions; by promoting easy access to abortions; by indicating abortions are not wrong.

 

[Meriweather]

And what about the rest of what I wrote? Do you really want everyone to be blindly obedient? To never speak out? To not offer a different thought? And what about compassion? What good will come from excommunicating people who support abortion? What message is that sending? Did Christ die for just some of our sins?

Are you indicating the Catholic Church should have no position on abortion? Having no position equates to approval of abortion.

 

[Meriweather]

It is not virtuous if you are forced to be virtuous.

Virtue is a choice. It makes no sense to claim to be an unvirtuous Catholic--not if being Catholic supposedly stands for something.

 

[Meriweather]

One of Jesus' hardest teachings is recognizing murder--or any sin--begins in the heart.

I will have sex outside of marriage.
But I will use artificial birth control.
If artificial birth control fails...
I will abort. A child was never wanted to begin with.

Be careful of your thoughts....etc....because in the end they may become your destiny. Our redemption is repentance for the forgiveness of sins. Sins are forgiven. This does not give anyone permission to give tacit approval to any sin--especially abortion.

 

[ding]

How did they encourage women to have abortions?

By favoring/approving abortions; by promoting easy access to abortions; by indicating abortions are not wrong.

That's not what I think of when I think of encouraging.

 

[ding]

And what about the rest of what I wrote? Do you really want everyone to be blindly obedient? To never speak out? To not offer a different thought? And what about compassion? What good will come from excommunicating people who support abortion? What message is that sending? Did Christ die for just some of our sins?

Are you indicating the Catholic Church should have no position on abortion? Having no position equates to approval of abortion.

Not at all. I am saying I don't think anyone should be excommunicated for it.

I do find your position - that women shouldn't be excommunicated for having an abortion but those that enable it should - to be incongruent though.

 

[ding]

It is not virtuous if you are forced to be virtuous.

Virtue is a choice. It makes no sense to claim to be an unvirtuous Catholic--not if being Catholic supposedly stands for something.

Yes, virtue is a choice. But no one believes they are unvirtuous . My point was that forcing others to behave with virtue is not the correct way of promoting virtue.

 

[ding]

One of Jesus' hardest teachings is recognizing murder--or any sin--begins in the heart.

I will have sex outside of marriage.
But I will use artificial birth control.
If artificial birth control fails...
I will abort. A child was never wanted to begin with.

Be careful of your thoughts....etc....because in the end they may become your destiny. Our redemption is repentance for the forgiveness of sins. Sins are forgiven. This does not give anyone permission to give tacit approval to any sin--especially abortion.

I don't find that teaching hard, I find it to be logical. I would be surprised if some married women didn't have abortions just like I would be surprised if some Catholic women didn't have abortions.

I get the dangers of treating abortion as the last resort of birth control. It is what it is.

But if people are excommunicated for abortion - for whatever reason - then that would seem to imply that the Church is saying that not all sins are forgiven which is what I am struggling with.

 

[Meriweather]

Not at all. I am saying I don't think anyone should be excommunicated for it.

I do find your position - that women shouldn't be excommunicated for having an abortion but those that enable it should - to be incongruent though.

We are speaking public excommunication versus the state of excommunication. Anyone who has an abortion places herself in the state of excommunication until repentance and forgiveness of the sin occurs. This is the same with anyone who commits murder or any other mortal sin. There is no public announcement of excommunication, it is a private matter.

Public excommunication is rare and is reserved for those who, as a Catholic, publicly advocate or promote something serious, such as abortion. When a known Catholic promotes abortion in a public setting, then the Church makes a public statement/correction annoucing the excommunication which is noting that this particular Catholic, while making him/herself publicly known as a Catholic, has stepped outside the parameters of the Catholic faith. There is no incongruity.

 

[Meriweather]

Yes, virtue is a choice. But no one believes they are unvirtuous . My point was that forcing others to behave with virtue is not the correct way of promoting virtue.

No one is forcing anyone. People make their own choice. That choice, however, may be declared devoid of any virtue, that sin occurred. It is not a matter of forcing, but a matter of having expectations. What happens when there are no expectations?

 

[ding]

Not at all. I am saying I don't think anyone should be excommunicated for it.

I do find your position - that women shouldn't be excommunicated for having an abortion but those that enable it should - to be incongruent though.

We are speaking public excommunication versus the state of excommunication. Anyone who has an abortion places herself in the state of excommunication until repentance and forgiveness of the sin occurs. This is the same with anyone who commits murder or any other mortal sin. There is no public announcement of excommunication, it is a private matter.

Public excommunication is rare and is reserved for those who, as a Catholic, publicly advocate or promote something serious, such as abortion. When a known Catholic promotes abortion in a public setting, then the Church makes a public statement/correction annoucing the excommunication which is noting that this particular Catholic, while making him/herself publicly known as a Catholic, has stepped outside the parameters of the Catholic faith. There is no incongruity.

I get the difference. I still think there is an incongruity. And I still think it's the wrong message and given that I don't see politicians or doctors being excommunicated in numbers, it would seem the Church agrees with me.

 

[ding]

Yes, virtue is a choice. But no one believes they are unvirtuous . My point was that forcing others to behave with virtue is not the correct way of promoting virtue.

No one is forcing anyone. People make their own choice. That choice, however, may be declared devoid of any virtue, that sin occurred. It is not a matter of forcing, but a matter of having expectations. What happens when there are no expectations?

They kind of are. Yes, we are the sum of our choices. The question is are we going to block people from communing with Christ because they are flawed human beings. I can promise you that no one in the Church believes everyone is free of sin when they take communion. In fact, I would expect those to be rare individuals.

 

[Meriweather]

I get the difference. I still think there is an incongruity. And I still think it's the wrong message and given that I don't see politicians or doctors being excommunicated in numbers, it would seem the Church agrees with me.

How many politicians and doctors are in the news promoting abortion?