Zone1 Are any Christians here interested to know WHY Jews don’t believe Jesus was the Messiah?

[BreezeWood]

To atone for our sins and die so that the atonement could be completed.

your sins and maybe a couple other christians ... as far as that goes.

no one at that time believed they were born sinners, there was nothing to atone for ... and behold, jesus did not sacrifice their own life - the jews had him murdered ...

their crime is the reason their has not been closure for the life and times of jesus. had he lived and died a natural death.

they and their religion have yet to be brought to justice.

 

[Cougarbear]

your sins and maybe a couple other christians ... as far as that goes.

no one at that time believed they were born sinners, there was nothing to atone for ... and behold, jesus did not sacrifice their own life - the jews had him murdered ...

their crime is the reason their has not been closure for the life and times of jesus. had he lived and died a natural death.

they and their religion have yet to be brought to justice.

All those years the Jews were celebrating the Day of Atonement that they didn’t know atonement meant repentance from their sins? Hogwash! The day of cleansing.

 

[irosie91]

Sure, and I'm happy to instruct you in the Bible. No problem. Writing two thirds of the New Testament after meeting the Lord wasn't a "hypnogogic hallucination".

sure was-----read the book again----the AUTHOR (paul) himself describes that meeting
as a hypnogogic hallucination-------were I the doc of record---I would write VDRL

 

[irosie91]

You've never been to Arabia or anywhere else.

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[rosends]

There's no need to create or insert anything that's already there, in numerous scriptures throughout the Tanakh.

Show me Jesus' name in the Tanach, just once. If it isn't there (and it isn't) then you have to insert him through your interpretation.

You probably won't like what I'm about to say, but since we're talking about this....there are also OT scriptures about God’s spiritual blinding of Israel. So the fact that many (not all) Jews rejected Jesus was itself prophesied.

No, if the Jews are blinded it is because they reject God. God is mentioned. Jesus is not.

ETA: The bible also says that blindness will be lifted, in the last days, and what's really cool is that we are seeing that happening now, as more and more Jews are becoming believers in Yeshua, which to me is an indication that we're getting close to the last days of this age.

More and more Jews are becoming religious (the fastest growing section of the Jewish population is the religious part). So, no Jesus.

Well, of course anyone who doesn't believe in the NT is not going to see or acknowledge the "types" and shadows in the OT / Jewish bible. If you did, then you'd be a believer in Yeshua Hamashiach. But they are indeed there.

you mean that you "believe they are there." If a non-believer were to show up, you would have nothing to show him until he chose to believe. So this is a function of your faith, not in what the text actually has.

 

[rosends]

The scriptures I have are all the Gospels, but John in particular.

Every Old Testament Judge and King was a messiah, meaning an anointed one. Therefore, there have been many messiahs in Judaism. Note that in Judaism, first the Judges then the Kings were the ones in charge of worldly affairs. Therefore, when Jews lost to other nations and did not have an anointed Jewish king, they looked for their next Messiah (anointed king). It never occurred to them to look for a priest, prophet, or spiritual leader because these remained in Jewish culture.

According to the Gospels, people still acknowledged prophets in Jesus' day. However, after the advent of Christianity, Jewish Canon says that Malachi was the last Jewish prophet. I disagree with that on the basis that John the Baptist and Jesus both qualified as prophets. Remember Levites asking John-the-Baptist, "Are you The Prophet?"

There is so much we don't know and I have never been able to learn much about The Prophet. It seems that Moses spoke of him, as someone greater than he. Moses was known for teaching the Law to the Israelites, and Jesus is also known for teaching about the Law.

My point is that Messiah meant 'anointed' and Jesus was clearly anointed by God (Christian belief) to proclaim the Good News and to teach Repentance for the forgiveness of sins. However 'Messiah' also meant a world political ruler, and this is clearly what Jews meant when speaking of "The Messiah."

I do not believe that Moses foretold of someone in the Line of David because Moses was not only before David's time, he lived before the time of Kings. I believe Moses spoke not of a ruler but of The Prophet (meaning one who speaks for God) who would be greater than he. A prophet is someone to whom Moses could relate, someone who knew God spoke for Him. Jesus insisted this is what he was doing--speaking and acting as God directed him. He insisted he was One with God.



While there is nothing wrong in asking for a single verse or two, there is nothing particularly strong about using proof-texting. It usually lifts that specific verse out of context and it ignores all the verses. Another thing it does: Causes comments such as, "Sounds like work-based salvation..." which makes your own denominations sound like lazy do-nothings when it comes to serving God and our fellow-man. Scripture is clear: There is no such thing as work-based salvation is equally clear that we are to discern the will of God and serve Him--and we are to help our fellow-man.

All that being said...Paul used proof-texting of the Old Testament quite a lot himself--and I do not agree with all his 'proof-texts' either. Just because Paul used them does not turn them into something stronger than the original author(s) of those verses intended. They serve as analogies, and at some point analogies always fail. Not that analogies and proof-texts are useless, they are not, but we should always note the point at which they fail, too.

judges were not anointed. Kings and high priests (and a couple of other priests). Not Judges.

 

[Meriweather]

judges were not anointed. Kings and high priests (and a couple of other priests). Not Judges.

Question: I do recall that Moses had the people appoint Judges, but God did choose a few. Samson comes to mind. Wasn't that considered being anointed by God? (Maybe it is only accounted that way by a particular Jewish sect?)

 

[rosends]

Question: I do recall that Moses had the people appoint Judges, but God did choose a few. Samson comes to mind. Wasn't that considered being anointed by God? (Maybe it is only accounted that way by a particular Jewish sect?)

Moses appointed judges -- humans who could help decide matters of law. They were not anointed. Judges (in the post-5 books "Book of Judges") rose up to lead the people but they were also not anointed. Anointed refers almost always to being smeared with a particular oil (in a couple of verses, prophets are called "anointed" though they were not smeared with oil). While other people had a divine spirit within them, they were not anointed.

 

[BreezeWood]

All those years the Jews were celebrating the Day of Atonement that they didn’t know atonement meant repentance from their sins? Hogwash! The day of cleansing.

there is no such condition as repentance, than for daydreamers.

better atone for any committed sins, sin no more and not have committed any unattonable sins - is the idea .... there is not an original sin anyone is born with - - their birth is a clean slate - keep it that way regardless heavenly ambitions and all will be well.

 

[BreezeWood]

sure was-----read the book again----the AUTHOR (paul) himself describes that meeting
as a hypnogogic hallucination-------were I the doc of record---I would write VDRL

well,

they may have to wait a few years for your written - vdrl ... just maybe (someone else might step in) to save time.

 

[BS Filter]

sure was-----read the book again----the AUTHOR (paul) himself describes that meeting
as a hypnogogic hallucination-------were I the doc of record---I would write VDRL

You're nuts.

 

[surada]

You're nuts.

Does hypnogogic mean the hypnotic state between being awake and asleep.

 

[Cougarbear]

there is no such condition as repentance, than for daydreamers.

better atone for any committed sins, sin no more and not have committed any unattonable sins - is the idea .... there is not an original sin anyone is born with - - their birth is a clean slate - keep it that way regardless heavenly ambitions and all will be well.

I’m not Catholic. I don’t believe in their version of origins in. Adam and Eve simply brought the ability to sin into the world. When God sets a Commandment and law in place, breaking it is a sin when we have that knowledge. Everyone breaks a commandment one way or another a little bit. Evil thoughts are therefore sins. However, that knowledge doesn’t start until about the age of 8. So, babies are born without sin and don’t need baptism until the age of accountability at about the age of 8. Then, we all are in need of repentance and baptism.

 

[BreezeWood]

I’m not Catholic. I don’t believe in their version of origins in. Adam and Eve simply brought the ability to sin into the world. When God sets a Commandment and law in place, breaking it is a sin when we have that knowledge. Everyone breaks a commandment one way or another a little bit. Evil thoughts are therefore sins. However, that knowledge doesn’t start until about the age of 8. So, babies are born without sin and don’t need baptism until the age of accountability at about the age of 8. Then, we all are in need of repentance and baptism.

there are no commandments from heaven - their provision is proactive, the parable of noah - the triumph of good vs evil - for judgement and admission to the everlasting.

- or do you have from the heavens in their writing a document for what you claim.

if babies are born without sin - how is it christians claim jesus died to remove their original sin at birth ... when according to some (surada) that was a 3rd century finding, (makebelieve) to begin with.

Adam and Eve simply brought the ability to sin into the world.

why then do you believe jesus was crucified ... if that was their intent to be crucified - and not they befell into the hands of murderers.

 

[Cougarbear]

there are no commandments from heaven - their provision is proactive, the parable of noah - the triumph of good vs evil - for judgement and admission to the everlasting.

- or do you have from the heavens in their writing a document for what you claim.

if babies are born without sin - how is it christians claim jesus died to remove their original sin at birth ... when according to some (surada) that was a 3rd century finding, (makebelieve) to begin with.



why then do you believe jesus was crucified ... if that was their intent to be crucified - and not they befell into the hands of murderers.

You have difficulty in reading? Yes!
I said there is no original sin that condemns new born babies. We are Responsible for our own sins and not the sins of others. Jesus’s atonement offers forgiveness for all who accept him. Do t care what Catholics teach.

 

[BreezeWood]

You have difficulty in reading? Yes!
I said there is no original sin that condemns new born babies. We are Responsible for our own sins and not the sins of others. Jesus’s atonement offers forgiveness for all who accept him. Do t care what Catholics teach.

bear, whats wrong with your taking that responsibility for yourself - and stop sinning and sin never more ...

jesus did no such offering as you suggest their pity will not help you.

 

[irosie91]

Does hypnogogic mean the hypnotic state between being awake and asleep.

it is a status between wakefulness and sleep----but no reason to call it HYPNOTIC

 

[Cougarbear]

bear, whats wrong with your taking that responsibility for yourself - and stop sinning and sin never more ...

jesus did no such offering as you suggest their pity will not help you.

I testify that I know Jesus atones for our sins after all we can do. We do our very best and the atonement takes us the rest of the way. He talks about making as much of restitution as possible. After all we can do. He taught to ask for food Tom those we sin against. After all we can do. You need to stop ignoring the mediator between you and the Father God. Only through him you can be saved. This is the true gospel.

 

[Cougarbear]

bear, whats wrong with your taking that responsibility for yourself - and stop sinning and sin never more ...

jesus did no such offering as you suggest their pity will not help you.

You have difficulty in reading? Yes!
I said there is no original sin that condemns new born babies. We are Responsible for our own sins and not the sins of others. Jesus’s atonement offers forgiveness for all who accept him. Don’t care what Catholics teach.

 

[Meriweather]

I don't want to put words in your mouth or assume things that aren't true, but if I read between the lines, I get the feeling that you don't think the Jewish people need Jesus, because they have "their own Messiah" (who has yet to come but they're still waiting.)

I'm still not sure what your point is?

I will take a stab at this and have everyone disagreeing and at odds with me.

Bluntly, I do not believe in Rapture, End Times, The Jewish Messiah as a Ruler, etc. The Day of the Lord, or the coming of God's rule on Earth relates to this. Original Sin does as well. Where they all meet is in...

Mankind's Expulsion from the Garden of Eden. Yes, in Jesus' time, people were speaking of the Messiah, but there was another issue at that time on which I haven't been able to find much information. That issue is How Do We Get Back to the Way Life Was Before Mankind was Expelled from the Garden? It was a big issue then, but one that seems mostly forgotten.

How do we get back to life before expulsion from the garden? I believe that was the issue of his times that Jesus was addressing, of people accepting God's rule on earth, of entering into the God's Kingdom here on earth and of living life as originally intended. There is nothing governmental about this. Jesus spoke of this way of life as working among us like yeast works in dough. It is a kingdom not of this world, meaning it is not a kingdom world leaders care about or to which they give any thought. It works in one's personal life. And that is why Jesus is my Messiah, and why he claimed scripture did reference him--Not as a world leader, but as the leader for those of us who would like to try a life before our expulsion from the Garden of Eden (mankind's original sin).

No child today is born in the Garden of Eden. We are all born into a world outside the garden, and by our Baptism we announce our intention to make our way back into a life before than expulsion. And, we can't depend on any world leader--even The Messiah of the Jews--to return us to that life. It takes God. And that is why Jews do believe in the Day of the Lord, where God comes to rule over all.

The reason this is a tender issue for me and why it means so much to me is that Jesus prayed we might all be one. If there is one thing all people of faith might agree on and not fight about is wouldn't it be nice to try life before expulsion from the Garden.