I try hard not to decide what stories from another culture mean, but like you, it did leave me with the impression that the either the fruit of the tree was not quite ripe--or, alternately, mankind wasn't quite mature enough to consume it.
While I know about the traditions that teach that meat eating is a concession to man's nature I don't know of any verse right before the one I referenced that says that mankind's imagination is evil continually. There is a verse 3 full chapters before which reads, "God saw how great was human wickedness on earth—how every plan devised by the human mind was nothing but evil all the time." But that relates to the people who were eventually killed in the flood. Right after that, "But Noah found favor with God."
Wish I could, rosends, but I have been reading this stuff for decades and talking with anyone who is comfortable speaking to me about it. This, like the lore that people of Jesus' day were picturing a return to Eden just as easily as they were speaking of The Messiah, isn't something on which I was recording notes at all--let alone detailed notes. My interest is in how people (both living and those who lived in the past) perceive God, especially the idea of God in our midst.
Jews don't believe in the idea of the fall of mankind, or original sin. we also don't believe in fallen angels and the devil.
Do Jews hold the belief that mankind was taken from the Garden of Eden and not allowed to return? If so, was this a decision by God's, not because of anything anyone did?
Mankind was taken out because his nature had changed with the internalization of an evil inclination so he no longer "fit" in the garden.
Thank you. This also fits the idea of Original Sin, with 'sin' meaning to "miss the mark/target". Mankind missed the mark with that internalization of evil inclination that made life in the garden incompatible with his nature?
I focus on the portion of your post I am addressing. No offense intended.
I understand your focus. If you wish to start with people being kind to animals, go with it. I am not arguing against it, merely continuing with my own focus with each person's relationship with God and other people. From the beginning what you seemed to see as important was behavior towards animals, taking the discussion away from its intended focus of our relationship with God and each other.
I have my way of responding and I'll continue to stay with it. Keep in mind, it also allows people to return to your original post in its entirety several times should they care to do this.
Mankind didn't miss the mark. Mankind showed free will, as it was supposed to.
Th verse that is endlessly debated about Noah is that "Noah was righteous in his generation". It either mean he was just plain righteous, or as you said, he was better than the rest.Thanks for being reasonable, even though we have differing views. That is a rare quality around here.
Anyway, to answer what you said, I was talking about Genesis chapter 8, verse 21, which is the end of that chapter... so that's why I said it's just a few verses before chapter 9 scripture you mentioned.
So, according to the order of events, shortly before God gave mankind over to our selfish desires due to our hardened hearts, He said "I will never again curse the ground for man’s sake, although the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth"
Yes, Noah found favor with God, but you have to keep in mind that the rest of the world at that time was horribly evil and violent. So in comparison, Noah was not a bad person. But that doesn't mean Noah was perfect or always did the right thing. We know that because not long after that, Noah got drunk, so obviously he was not always doing the right thing.
As for the last thing you said about a thread on the topic of biblical vegetarianism, yes... that's a good idea. I fully admit I'm in a very tiny minority among Christians with my position... but there are 3 or 4 of us here on this site who are Christian vegans. I think it's always an interesting debate, when the topic does come up.
If it was about free will, why was the way back to the Garden of Eden blocked? One act of free will, with changing one's mind not allowed? If choosing knowledge meant leaving the garden, they why not go voluntarily and why guard it against returning? (Just curious about how this ties in, and how it relates to the part where God did tell them not to eat of the Tree of Knowledge. Was this solely an act of free will? Wasn't it also an act of disobedience?)
Yes, with no government/governor other than God...
The notion of missing the mark is an aspect of the translation of the Hebrew word "chet" meaning sin (but a particular type). The behavior in the garden was not of the type that would be called a chet so I'm not sure that missing the mark works here.
Thanks for the reply and citation. I see that verse as speaking about the kind of evil that SHOULD doom mankind but won't because if God's promise, so this is on a different level from an interest in meat but I can see the connection you make and appreciate your making it.Thanks for being reasonable, even though we have differing views. That is a rare quality around here.
Anyway, to answer what you said, I was talking about Genesis chapter 8, verse 21, which is the end of that chapter... so that's why I said it's just a few verses before chapter 9 scripture you mentioned.
So, according to the order of events, shortly before God gave mankind over to our selfish desires due to our hardened hearts, He said "I will never again curse the ground for man’s sake, although the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth"
Yes, Noah found favor with God, but you have to keep in mind that the rest of the world at that time was horribly evil and violent. So in comparison, Noah was not a bad person. But that doesn't mean Noah was perfect or always did the right thing. We know that because not long after that, Noah got drunk, so obviously he was not always doing the right thing.
As for the last thing you said about a thread on the topic of biblical vegetarianism, yes... that's a good idea. I fully admit I'm in a very tiny minority among Christians with my position... but there are 3 or 4 of us here on this site who are Christian vegans. I think it's always an interesting debate, when the topic does come up.
