Zone1 Are all people equally valuable?

[buttercup]

No Buttercup, I will challenge your poor reasoning and horrible assertions, whether you like it or not. This is a debate forum or at least a place where people discuss the issues and you ask a question, challenging people like me. Well, I'm up for the challenge you've presented and responded to it. You disingenuously accuse me of being immoral, and insincere, when all I'm doing is answering your question as honestly as I can. You're the one who is being immoral, for falsely accusing me of having ill intentions in my response to your challenge. I intend to defend my perspective, just as you are defending yours. So stop being so afraid, and face reality for once in your life. You will come out much stronger and happier. It's time to grow up.

I wasn't talking about this thread. I've had prior exchanges with you on OTHER threads, that's why I know I have no interest in having a discussion with you on those topics, for the reasons I already stated. And there you go again, adding to my words. See? This is why I said you're a dishonest debater. And that's just one of the reasons why I don't post to you, or have interest in posting with you. Now I've already asked you 3 times to start a new thread if you want to rant and rave about God and your topics of interest, so if you continue badgering me you'll just be proving you're a troublemaker.

 

[TruthNotBS]

I wasn't talking about this thread. I've had prior exchanges with you on OTHER threads, that's why I know I have no interest in having a discussion with you on those topics, for the reasons I already stated. And there you go again, adding to my words. See? This is why I said you're a dishonest debater. And that's just one of the reasons why I don't post to you, or have interest in posting with you. Now I've already asked you 3 times to start a new thread if you want to rant and rave about God and your topics of interest, so if you continue badgering me you'll just be proving you're a troublemaker.

I'm going to respond to your fallacious arguments and claims, whether you like it or not. Anyone who reads my previous posts on this thread can see that I'm not using derogatory language, I'm keeping my posts within the rules of Zone 1. I will debunk, and refute all of your horrible arguments and reasoning, and if you want to ignore my posts, that's fine. At this point, I'm answering your objections and silly claims, for the sake of others, not you.

 

[buttercup]

I'm going to respond to your fallacious arguments and claims, whether you like it or not. Anyone who reads my previous posts on this thread can see that I'm not using derogatory language, I'm keeping my posts within the rules of Zone 1. I will debunk, and refute all of your horrible arguments and reasoning, and if you want to ignore my posts, that's fine. At this point, I'm answering your objections and silly claims, for the sake of others, not you.

You're acting as if you and I have had an ongoing debate here. I haven't even made many claims, I responded to your first post by saying that God doesn't consider the Jews or Christians superior to everyone else, but other than that, this has hardly been a debate. It has been me repeatedly telling you that if you want to rant and rave about your usual topics of interest then start a new thread.

Yet again you show your dishonesty in how you even describe this exchange. All of my "horrible arguments and reasoning"? Lol! What arguments? Again, the only thing I said in response to your post was that God does not consider the Jews or Christians to be superior to everyone else. I even gave examples of how you are wrong about that. You haven't refuted jack, you've just done your usual anti-christian ranting and raving.

And now you are boring me to death, I'm not interested in going back and forth with your combative, dishonest, prideful posts. I shouldn't have even replied to you yet again. I feel like I'm dealing with a demonic spirit whenever you post.

 

[TruthNotBS]

You're acting as if you and I have had an ongoing debate here. I haven't even made many claims, I responded to your first post by saying that God doesn't consider the Jews or Christians superior to everyone else, but other than that, this has hardly been a debate. It has been me repeatedly telling you that if you want to rant and rave about your usual topics of interest then start a new thread.

Yet again you show your dishonesty in how you even describe this exchange. All of my "horrible arguments and reasoning"? Lol! What arguments? Again, the only thing I said in response to your post was that God does not consider the Jews or Christians to be superior to everyone else. I even gave examples of how you are wrong about that. You haven't refuted jack, you've just done your usual anti-christian ranting and raving.

And now you are boring me to death, I'm not interested in going back and forth with your combative, dishonest, prideful posts. I shouldn't have even replied to you yet again. I feel like I'm dealing with a demonic spirit whenever you post.

If I'm boring you to death, then why are you responding to my posts? Are you into posting in response to others who bore you to death? That's your problem, not mine. I'm going to continue exposing your silly beliefs, and I don't care how you feel about it. I'm answering your first post and you continue to respond, hence our friendly exchange.

You haven't in any way refuted what I said about the Jews in the OT being superior to non-Jews. According to God himself, the Jews will rule the world and the nations will serve them. You're claiming that without believing in a deity, one can't value human life or consider all human life equal. That's simply not true. You're claiming your version of God is loving, but he's clearly not because he tortures people in hell for all eternity for not converting to your religion. That's a heavenly tyrant not a benevolent deity.

 

[sparky]

When we say 'God', who are we talking about?

List of deities by classification - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

~S~

 

[Meriweather]

You're claiming that God loves humanity, yet your version of God keeps human beings conscious in hell for all eternity, for not believing in your Christian religion and dogmas. That's love? I'm pointing out the irony and inconsistencies in your assertions and beliefs.

Proof-texting. Cherry picking. In this case, hunting for elements in Judaism/Christianity and creating an entirely different story which lead to different and unintended conclusions. No, I am not just singling you out, but any person/denomination focusing on parts, not the whole.

The Old Testament is quite clear that the Jews will rule the world, and all of the nations will pay tribute to them or face divine judgment. That's expounded in the prophets, like Isaiah, Jeremiah, Zechariah..etc.

So much of the Old Testament centers on a way of life where all will see the wisdom of God and the joy and prosperity that emerges when living in this wisdom: Put God first; love and care for mankind. Beware of the desire for wealth and power, as this is selfishness, putting oneself first, and pampering oneself while others are in great need.

There are many Christians who believe Jesus only died for the elect, not all of humanity. Saying Jesus died for everyone and yet most people go to hell, doesn't say much about Jesus dying for anyone. If people have to convert to your Christian religion to be saved, from the wrath of your deity, that's not good news, that's bad news. There are hundreds of religions and philosophies in the world, many cultures and nations, that aren't Christian and people who are born into other religions, aren't interested in converting to yours. Yet your Christian version of God keeps people alive in a state of eternal torment just because they didn't accept your Christian religious doctrines and dogmas. That doesn't seem obscene and ridiculous to you.

Focusing on what "many Christians believe" is no better than focusing on what "many" atheists believe. These are red herrings that lead straight into fallacies. Fallacy is in the opposite direction of truth.

Why does Jesus or God have to die for anyone's sins? You say that as if it makes perfect sense, but for most non-Christians, that just sounds absurd. God, assuming he exists, has to die for everyone's sins, because supposedly he can't forgive people. God the perfect being, that lives in eternal, infinite, opulence and security, with perfectly manicured hands, never having to worry about getting sick or dying, much less being overpowered by anyone, is judging and condemning finite, mortal beings, who have to deal with all of the hazards, pain and suffering, poverty, fears, insecurities, diseases, and death, of earthly life. Has this deity that you grovel before, ever really experienced what it means to be truly human, like you and me?

Now let's look at the entire picture. Jesus turned his own small place and his own small amount of earthly time turning accepted beliefs upside down. He did this using Biblical teachings of his own people. Sins are forgiven. Repentance (turning away from wrong-doing to right) is what is offered for the forgiveness of sins. The perfect sacrifice is a contrite heart. (This is all in the Old Testament, Hebrew scripture.)

Overtime, these Biblical teachings had been eclipsed by bringing sin offerings to the Temple for forgiveness. In a time of poverty, those in authority had found a way to milk even more from the poor. Jesus, of course, did it more humbly, but in essence, he marches up to Temple authorities saying, You want a sin offering!? I'll be your sin offering! And in doing so, this will free the people of God from this, your travesty, and remind them that just as a lamb paved the way for their freedom from bondage in Egypt and this will pave their way out of the bondage you placed upon them by using sin against them.

In short, God has no use for groveling.

Sin, repentance, a contrite heart is as normal for mankind as is climate change is for the earth. Yet, in both these instances, the powerful convinced the people if the people would just give them stuff (mostly money) they would make it all go away.

 

[BreezeWood]

Sin, repentance, a contrite heart is as normal for mankind as is climate change is for the earth. Yet, in both these instances, the powerful convinced the people if the people would just give them stuff (mostly money) they would make it all go away.

really, climate change for earth is normal ...

normal for the desert religions to avoid their responsibility in not keeping the heavenly creation, sabbath holy as is their instruction - than taking a holiday from making their money.

 

[TruthNotBS]

Proof-texting. Cherry picking. In this case, hunting for elements in Judaism/Christianity and creating an entirely different story which lead to different and unintended conclusions. No, I am not just singling you out, but any person/denomination focusing on parts, not the whole.

So much of the Old Testament centers on a way of life where all will see the wisdom of God and the joy and prosperity that emerges when living in this wisdom: Put God first; love and care for mankind. Beware of the desire for wealth and power, as this is selfishness, putting oneself first, and pampering oneself while others are in great need.

Focusing on what "many Christians believe" is no better than focusing on what "many" atheists believe. These are red herrings that lead straight into fallacies. Fallacy is in the opposite direction of truth.

Now let's look at the entire picture. Jesus turned his own small place and his own small amount of earthly time turning accepted beliefs upside down. He did this using Biblical teachings of his own people. Sins are forgiven. Repentance (turning away from wrong-doing to right) is what is offered for the forgiveness of sins. The perfect sacrifice is a contrite heart. (This is all in the Old Testament, Hebrew scripture.)

Overtime, these Biblical teachings had been eclipsed by bringing sin offerings to the Temple for forgiveness. In a time of poverty, those in authority had found a way to milk even more from the poor. Jesus, of course, did it more humbly, but in essence, he marches up to Temple authorities saying, You want a sin offering!? I'll be your sin offering! And in doing so, this will free the people of God from this, your travesty, and remind them that just as a lamb paved the way for their freedom from bondage in Egypt and this will pave their way out of the bondage you placed upon them by using sin against them.

In short, God has no use for groveling.

Sin, repentance, a contrite heart is as normal for mankind as is climate change is for the earth. Yet, in both these instances, the powerful convinced the people if the people would just give them stuff (mostly money) they would make it all go away.

You're a smart, articulate person, but when it comes to these issues, you shut-off your brain. Sad.

 

[TruthNotBS]

When we say 'God', who are we talking about?

List of deities by classification - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

~S~

Good question. Inquiring minds want to know. There are many deities, but for some reason, Christians think the Christian one is the true one and all of the other ones are false. Christians are essentially rational atheists when it comes to every other god but theirs.

 

[ding]

Good question. Inquiring minds want to know. There are many deities, but for some reason, Christians think the Christian one is the true one and all of the other ones are false. Christians are essentially rational atheists when it comes to every other god but theirs.

I always thought the belief that since there are so many different perceptions of God that there can be no God was an idiotic argument. I'm not sure if it's at the top of the list but it's right there as far as idiotic arguments go.
And the whole diversification of atheistic classifications is almost as equally idiotic.

 

[ding]

You're a smart, articulate person, but when it comes to these issues, you shut-off your brain. Sad.

The measure of how articulate and intelligent a person is can be discovered by how they methodically, sequentially and logically present their reasoning. From that perspective Meriweather is quite smart and articulate. So I'm not sure how you can argue she shuts off her brain.

 

[sparky]

Christians are essentially rational atheists when it comes to every other god but theirs.

good one Truth

you'll excuse me if i say the devil's in that very detail plz
~S~

 

[TruthNotBS]

I always thought the belief that since there are so many different perceptions of God that there can be no God was an idiotic argument. I'm not sure if it's at the top of the list but it's right there as far as idiotic arguments go.
And the whole diversification of atheistic classifications is almost as equally idiotic.

I don't suggest there isn't a GOD but think about it. Is it likely that there is a being that is infinite, perfect, by necessity, and yet would be as petty to care what particular religion you join? Does this being even know what it is to be a mortal, vulnerable human? Is this entity really in a moral position to be judging and condemning other beings that have it as rough as we do, while it/he/she, is living in its perfectly safe and secure state, of infinite abundance?

Has he ever truly walked in the shoes of ding? He's going to judge and perhaps even condemn ding, to hell? It's just nonsense. I have to believe this or else I'm tortured forever. It's just ridiculous and I suspect you know this because like Meri, you're also quite intelligent and articulate. Smart people, out of what I suspect is fear, if not terror, feel compelled to believe gobbledygook. A bunch of religious, manipulative claptrap. It's dangerous and sad. Dangerous, because when we have smart people that are under a religious delusion, we get wars, genocide..etc. Good people, doing horrible things, under the impression that this is what their deity wants them to do.

 

[Meriweather]

The measure of how articulate and intelligent a person is can be discovered by how they methodically, sequentially and logically present their reasoning. From that perspective @Meriweather is quite smart and articulate. So I'm not sure how you can argue she shuts off her brain.

Thank you, ding. I did find something humorous in in TruthNotBS' earlier response to another poster:

I'm going to respond to your fallacious arguments and claims, whether you like it or not. Anyone who reads my previous posts on this thread can see that I'm not using derogatory language

Apparently when a post has no fallacious arguments and claims--then respond with something derogatory!

 

[TruthNotBS]

Thank you, ding. I did find something humorous in in TruthNotBS' earlier response to another poster:





Apparently when a post has no fallacious arguments and claims--then respond with something derogatory!

In what way am I being derogatory or immoral for what I've presented so far? Buttercup claims I'm demonic and hence evil for answering her original question and not agreeing with her I guess?

 

[Arlette]

Would you say that all human beings are equally valuable? I'm not talking about this from the perspective of society. When we look at this world and all the horrible things that humans have done to one another throughout history, I think it's safe to say that most people don't believe that all lives are equally valuable. But of course people aren't the source of objective truth. So my question is, what do you believe the actual truth is, in regard to human value? Would you say that all lives are inherently equal in value?

If your answer is yes, please explain why you believe that. If your answer is no, please explain why you believe that, and what things determine human value, in your view.

I'll start. I believe that all lives are equally valuable. Why, because as a Christian I believe that God is the source of actual truth, and in God's eyes we all have equal value. We were all created by God, we were all created in the image of God, and from a Christian perspective, Jesus (who was God in the flesh) died not just for some people, but for ALL people, whoever receives that gift of salvation, by faith.

This reminds me of a really good analogy about life being like a play... It's all temporary, and at the end of the day, things like money, social status, or anything else that society values ultimately means nothing. Why, because when the play is over, all the temporary things are gone and there is no difference between a Prince and a Pauper, in God's eyes.

I'll see if I can find that clip I'm thinking of, and if I do, I'll post it. But for now, what is your answer to this question?

Short answer - no

 

[westwall]

What makes anti-social behavior a disorder? You mother fuckers made me this way in the first place, and it’s safer for all of us.

A disorder is any lifestyle out of the norm. You choose to live your life as you do.

You allow others to affect your life, and react to their impetus. You say society created you, and it is best that you stay away from society.

Ok, I guarantee you that if you searched you find people to your liking, who aren't judgmental, and who don't care what you look like.

 

[Meriweather]

In what way am I being derogatory or immoral for what I've presented so far? Buttercup claims I'm demonic and evil.

Have you forgotten what you posted to me?

you shut-off your brain.

 

[TruthNotBS]

Have you forgotten what you posted to me?

I believe you're shutting off your reason when it comes to religion or the question of God. I also admitted that you're an intelligent, articulate person, so you're overreacting, don't you think? I'm not denigrating you at all, but rather saying that you seem quite intelligent, well-educated, and articulate, and I'm sure you're quite competent and mature in many areas of your life, but when it comes to these religious issues, you're willingly stupid. Wilfully ignorant.

I say willingly because you're not actually stupid but due to fear of the unknown, or of going to hell, or offending this heavenly tyrant with perfectly manicured hands, you identify as your deity, you've shut off your brain, mind, and reason. If you consider my opinion insulting, I'm genuinely sorry, it's not my intention to offend you, much less denigrate you, but rather to hopefully wake you up on this blind spot you have.

I'm sure I have my own blind spots and kinks I have to overcome, but nonetheless, these religious ideas and claims Christians defend are just ridiculous, if not immoral. Anti-Human. Misanthropic and self-destructive.

 

[Donald H]

I believe you're shutting off your reason when it comes to religion or the question of God. I also admitted that you're an intelligent, articulate person, so you're overreacting, don't you think? I'm not denigrating you at all, but rather saying that you seem quite intelligent, well-educated, and articulate, and I'm sure you're quite competent and mature in many areas of your life, but when it comes to these religious issues, you're willingly stupid. Wilfully ignorant.

I say willingly because you're not actually stupid but due to fear of the unknown, or of going to hell, or offending this heavenly tyrant with perfectly manicured hands, you identify as your deity, you've shut off your brain, mind, and reason. If you consider my opinion insulting, I'm genuinely sorry, it's not my intention to offend you, much less denigrate you, but rather to hopefully wake you up on this blind spot you have.

I'm sure I have my own blind spots and kinks I have to overcome, but nonetheless, these religious ideas and claims Christians defend are just ridiculous, if not immoral. Anti-Human. Misanthropic and self-destructive.

Even some very highly intelligent people who believe in modern science, believe in a god too. We all should be trying to find an explanation for why that's true?

I've never heard a better explanation than it being the equivalent of the duck hatching and seeing th Fox as its mother.

The highly intelligent believer has adopted beliefs in childhood that will stay with them for the rest of their lives.