Zone1 Are all people equally valuable?

[Anathema]

- peace is the same with or without them ... just better with them may be the issue you are unable to overcome. too bad for you.

My personality and ideology make it exceptionally difficult to find peace around anyone these days. Thats why I go out of my way to avoid people irl as much as I can.

 

[sparky]

From what I've seen, nonbelievers tend to conflate God and religion.

because they're mutually exclusive buttercup

~S~

 

[JohnDB]

 

[BreezeWood]

My personality and ideology make it exceptionally difficult to find peace around anyone these days. Thats why I go out of my way to avoid people irl as much as I can.

just seems the turmoil is the former and not the latter as you seem to know - if peace is being sought reconciliation of both might be what is necessary.

 

[Anathema]

just seems the turmoil is the former and not the latter as you seem to know - if peace is being sought reconciliation of both might be what is necessary.

I am who and what I am. I have been for half a century. Even the mental health community has deemed me “untreatable unless he wants to be” and I don’t see a need to change.

 

[forkintheroad7]

It’s Worse. I find the only useful emotion is Anger/Rage; and even that has its downsides.

It's amazing how many of your posts I, practicing Catholic, agree with. Most people here, it seems, would not relate to what you just said here, but I can because I've experienced great rage at God (long story why). I mean, you follow Jesus to the best of.. or virtually to the best of your ability and... things not only don't work out but they can often get worse. However, in those moments when everything seems wrong, I do something you likely do not do: I focus on the Cross of Christ. Sometimes I spend long moments contemplating Jesus on the Cross, repeating His name... and it really does one good to do that.. because He comes to us when we do that. It is blocking Jesus out that causes so much misery..

 

[forkintheroad7]

Yes but a psychopath has no such emotions. To them people are playthings.

I think they do have emotions, yet the emotions are all directed toward the self.. What benefits ME.
So when a psycho doesn't get his/her way, the tendency is to get angry (an emotion, obviously) and maybe some other emotions, but that person does not give a rip about anyone else experiencing anger, sadness.. or any other emotion

 

[forkintheroad7]

I am who and what I am. I have been for half a century. Even the mental health community has deemed me “untreatable unless he wants to be” and I don’t see a need to change.

not even fear of eternal damnation? Because when you are nothing but angry at everyone (and yes, I do know the feeling) and that holding onto anger causes you to ditch all love or empathy... to the point you don't help anyone who is in need (Mt 25:31, etc) Hell is your destination. The devil wins

 

[forkintheroad7]

I wish I could do that. Unfortunately my job and my medical issues keep me attached to society. Given a wish it would be to be able to just completely become a hermit with zero real-life attachment to humanity.

I've learned that if you can't handle the cross of being around difficult people, you may not be able to handle the cross of being entirely alone... it's just a thought, but one based on years and years of experience (the best teacher, I hear)

 

[Leo123]

I think they do have emotions, yet the emotions are all directed toward the self.. What benefits ME.
So when a psycho doesn't get his/her way, the tendency is to get angry (an emotion, obviously) and maybe some other emotions, but that person does not give a rip about anyone else experiencing anger, sadness.. or any other emotion

Seems you’re describing a sociopath.

 

[forkintheroad7]

because they're mutually exclusive buttercup

~S~

No, only the fake religions (heretical ones) are mutually exclusive w/ God. The Church Christ founded.. different story

 

[sparky]

No, only the fake religions (heretical ones) are mutually exclusive w/ God. The Church Christ founded.. different story

Unfortunately you'll get the same response from those 'fake religions' Fork

 

[initforme]

All people hold the same value in God's eyes without a doubt.

 

[buttercup]

because they're mutually exclusive buttercup

~S~

Yes, they're not always the same thing. But I didn't say that they NEVER coincide. But again, it seems that nonbelievers always conflate the two. Unfortunately, "religion" in many cases has turned many people off to the living God of the universe, to truth itself. So religion sure makes a good strawman for nonbelievers in debates or discussions about God.

 

[BreezeWood]

All people hold the same value in God's eyes without a doubt.

beings ...

Then they said, “Let us make life in our image, in our likeness, the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky the livestock and all the wild animals, and all the creatures that move along the ground.”

what they believed in the 1st century blessed by the heavens than the prevailing judaism of that time. the new church they were willing to die for.

 

[TruthNotBS]

Would you say that all human beings are equally valuable? I'm not talking about this from the perspective of society. When we look at this world and all the horrible things that humans have done to one another throughout history, I think it's safe to say that most people don't believe that all lives are equally valuable. But of course people aren't the source of objective truth. So my question is, what do you believe the actual truth is, in regard to human value? Would you say that all lives are inherently equal in value?

If your answer is yes, please explain why you believe that. If your answer is no, please explain why you believe that, and what things determine human value, in your view.

I'll start. I believe that all lives are equally valuable. Why, because as a Christian I believe that God is the source of actual truth, and in God's eyes we all have equal value. We were all created by God, we were all created in the image of God, and from a Christian perspective, Jesus (who was God in the flesh) died not just for some people, but for ALL people, whoever receives that gift of salvation, by faith.

This reminds me of a really good analogy about life being like a play... It's all temporary, and at the end of the day, things like money, social status, or anything else that society values ultimately means nothing. Why, because when the play is over, all the temporary things are gone and there is no difference between a Prince and a Pauper, in God's eyes.

I'll see if I can find that clip I'm thinking of, and if I do, I'll post it. But for now, what is your answer to this question?

I'll start. I believe that all lives are equally valuable. Why, because as a Christian I believe that God is the source of actual truth, and in God's eyes we all have equal value.

The God of the Bible doesn't consider all human life to be equal. He considers the lives of Israelites or Jews to be superior to others in the Old Testament and in the New Testament Christians in Christ are the Israel of God, and if you're not a Christian you're a child of the devil, in route to the lake of fire. Your version of God, will keep human beings conscious in a state of torment FOREVER, because they didn't convert to your Christian religion. How is that loving and just? Forcing all human beings by threat of eternal torture to accept Christian religious dogma?

We were all created by God, we were all created in the image of God, and from a Christian perspective, Jesus (who was God in the flesh) died not just for some people, but for ALL people, whoever receives that gift of salvation, by faith.

You said it right, it's from your "Christian perspective". There are many "perspectives" about what and who God is because we live in a world of literally hundreds of different religions and philosophies.

This reminds me of a really good analogy about life being like a play... It's all temporary, and at the end of the day, things like money, social status, or anything else that society values ultimately means nothing. Why, because when the play is over, all the temporary things are gone and there is no difference between a Prince and a Pauper, in God's eyes. I'll see if I can find that clip I'm thinking of, and if I do, I'll post it. But for now, what is your answer to this question?

I believe it's self-evident that life itself, is the highest value and reality because without it, we don't exist. So it behooves us to ask, what are the patterns of thought and behavior that are most conducive for life and which ones aren't. It's that simple. If I value my life, my existence, then it's a no brainer, that I should do my best, within good reason, not to harm others and to cooperate with other members of my human community, because at the end of the day, as hoaky and cliche as it might sound, all we really have on this little rock floating in the vast vacuum of space, is each other.

If we can't value each other and have no empathy and compassion for those who are of our species, then humanity is doomed. We need to be "good", treating each other well, in the same way, we ourselves want to be treated, So since I value my own existence and well being, I likewise value the existence and well being of others, and doing that isn't just a decision but a sense ingrained in my human psyche, instinctually these drives and sentiments are part of our humanity. Through millions of years of evolution, we have learned to survive and thrive through mutual cooperation, and establishing relationships with other human beings, in order to increase our chances of survival, control, and dominion of an environment that is constantly trying to kill us.

This world, the cosmos in general, is a cold, indifferent and brutal place and the best way to fight back, is by all of us working together for the common good. To lift ourselves up from the pit of chaos which is constantly trying to pull us down. The victory is in civility, human solidarity, empathy, cooperation, friendship, love, compassion, and courage, that's how we survive and thrive in a hostile universe.

 

[buttercup]

The God of the Bible doesn't consider all human life to be equal. He considers the lives of Israelites or Jews to be superior to others in the Old Testament and in the New Testament Christians in Christ are the Israel of God, and if you're not a Christian you're a child of the devil, in route to the lake of fire. Your version of God, will keep human beings conscious in a state of torment FOREVER, because they didn't convert to your Christian religion. How is that loving and just? Forcing all human beings by threat of eternal torture to accept Christian religious dogma?



You said it right, it's from your "Christian perspective". There are many "perspectives" about what and who God is because we live in a world of literally hundreds of different religions and philosophies.



I believe it's self-evident that life itself, is the highest value and reality because without it, we don't exist. So it behooves us to ask, what are the patterns of thought and behavior that are most conducive for life and which ones aren't. It's that simple. If I value my life, my existence, then it's a no brainer, that I should do my best, within good reason, not to harm others and to cooperate with other members of my human community, because at the end of the day, as hoaky and cliche as it might sound, all we really have on this little rock floating in the vast vacuum of space, is each other.

If we can't value each other and have no empathy and compassion for those who are of our species, then humanity is doomed. We need to be "good", treating each other well, in the same way, we ourselves want to be treated, So since I value my own existence and well being, I likewise value the existence and well being of others, and doing that isn't just a decision but a sense ingrained in my human psyche, instinctually these drives and sentiments are part of our humanity. Through millions of years of evolution, we have learned to survive and thrive through mutual cooperation, and establishing relationships with other human beings, in order to increase our chances of survival, control, and dominion of an environment that is constantly trying to kill us.

This world, the cosmos in general, is a cold, indifferent and brutal place and the best way to fight back, is by all of us working together for the common good. To lift ourselves up from the pit of chaos which is constantly trying to pull us down. The victory is in civility, human solidarity, empathy, cooperation, friendship, love, compassion, and courage, that's how we survive and thrive in a hostile universe.

Just about every time you post in a thread in this section, you go on a rant about hell, and I'm sorry but that is not the topic. Please feel free to start a thread on that topic, since it is clearly something you want to discuss. And no, God does not consider the Jews "superior".... Being chosen for a specific purpose does not have to do with superiority. In fact, throughout the Old Testament, it is kind of amazing how many times the Israelites seem to frustrate God, and that is why He often called them a "stiff-necked" people.

As for Christians in the NT, no, I do not believe that God sees Christians as superior....There are countless scriptures that say that God has no partiality, He is not a "respecter of persons." I can't speak for all Christians, and I know there are some who would disagree with this, but I believe that as long as a person is alive and breathing, they are redeemable...even the worst people. So that is why as someone else mentioned earlier on the thread, we cannot judge another person's worth, Jesus died for ALL, not just some.

 

[TruthNotBS]

Just about every time you post in a thread in this section, you go on a rant about hell, and I'm sorry but that is not the topic. Please feel free to start a thread on that topic, since it is clearly something you want to discuss. And no, God does not consider the Jews "superior".... Being chosen for a specific purpose does not have to do with superiority. In fact, throughout the Old Testament, it is kind of amazing how many times the Israelites seem to frustrate God, and that is why He often called them a "stiff-necked" people.

As for Christians in the NT, no, I do not believe that God sees Christians as superior....There are countless scriptures that say that God has no partiality, He is not a "respecter of persons." I can't speak for all Christians, and I know there are some who would disagree with this, but I believe that as long as a person is alive and breathing, they are redeemable...even the worst people. So that is why as someone else mentioned earlier on the thread, we cannot judge another person's worth, Jesus died for ALL, not just some.

You're claiming that God loves humanity, yet your version of God keeps human beings conscious in hell for all eternity, for not believing in your Christian religion and dogmas. That's love? I'm pointing out the irony and inconsistencies in your assertions and beliefs.

The Old Testament is quite clear that the Jews will rule the world, and all of the nations will pay tribute to them or face divine judgment. That's expounded in the prophets, like Isaiah, Jeremiah, Zechariah..etc.

There are many Christians who believe Jesus only died for the elect, not all of humanity. Saying Jesus died for everyone and yet most people go to hell, doesn't say much about Jesus dying for anyone. If people have to convert to your Christian religion to be saved, from the wrath of your deity, that's not good news, that's bad news. There are hundreds of religions and philosophies in the world, many cultures and nations, that aren't Christian and people who are born into other religions, aren't interested in converting to yours. Yet your Christian version of God keeps people alive in a state of eternal torment just because they didn't accept your Christian religious doctrines and dogmas. That doesn't seem obscene and ridiculous to you.

Why does Jesus or God have to die for anyone's sins? You say that as if it makes perfect sense, but for most non-Christians, that just sounds absurd. God, assuming he exists, has to die for everyone's sins, because supposedly he can't forgive people. God the perfect being, that lives in eternal, infinite, opulence and security, with perfectly manicured hands, never having to worry about getting sick or dying, much less being overpowered by anyone, is judging and condemning finite, mortal beings, who have to deal with all of the hazards, pain and suffering, poverty, fears, insecurities, diseases, and death, of earthly life. Has this deity that you grovel before, ever really experienced what it means to be truly human, like you and me?

You will respond by saying that Jesus supposedly is God incarnate and that's how God experienced being human, with all of its pain and suffering. But if you think about it, was Jesus truly human if he knew that he was born of the virgin Mary, came down from heaven, from a state of glory, and spent his life performing miracles, like raising the dead? He even admitted in the gospel of John that he would raise himself from the dead. Can you raise yourself from the dead? If you gave me the option to be tortured by Roman soldiers and then crucified for a few hours, with the guarantee that in a couple of days, I'm going to rise from the dead an immortal being, who will forever be young and king over the universe, I would run to the nearest Roman garrison, to receive my torture and execution. I won't pray for the cup to be taken from me as Jesus did in the garden, but rather, I will pray for the cup to be given to me.

When you and I walk into that dark room called death, we don't really know what we're stepping into. We face death as real, genuine, human beings, but your demi-god or God-man didn't really live a human life, as you and I. His life was completely empowered by divine, supernatural power and prerogatives, authority..etc, that you and I will never have, at least in this life time. Your version of Jesus isn't really human, but more like a divine demi-god or God incarnate. That's not human. Your version of God is going to torture people in hell for not accepting all of this Christian nonsense? How is he a good God, if he does that? Don't words in English have any meaning? Love, compassion, justice..etc. God is truly just and loving?

No, you Christians are confused and unfortunately, you're so afraid of death and your heavenly dictator tyrant, that you don't care if Christianity is just mythology. It makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside, and that's all that matters to you. You'll feel more warm and satisfaction once you come to terms with the truth and that is that, life is a mystery and we don't know what occurs after death. So we should live this life to the fullest and be good people. Be good, because life is better when we are good.

 

[buttercup]

You're claiming that God loves humanity, yet your version of God keeps human beings conscious in hell for all eternity, for not believing in your Christian religion and dogmas. That's love? I'm pointing out the irony and inconsistencies in your assertions and beliefs.

The Old Testament is quite clear that the Jews will rule the world, and all of the nations will pay tribute to them or face divine judgment. That's expounded in the prophets, like Isaiah, Jeremiah, Zechariah..etc.

There are many Christians who believe Jesus only died for the elect, not all of humanity. Saying Jesus died for everyone and yet most people go to hell, doesn't say much about Jesus dying for anyone. If people have to convert to your Christian religion to be saved, from the wrath of your deity, that's not good news, that's bad news. There are hundreds of religions and philosophies in the world, many cultures and nations, that aren't Christian and people who are born into other religions, aren't interested in converting to yours. Yet your Christian version of God keeps people alive in a state of eternal torment just because they didn't accept your Christian religious doctrines and dogmas. That doesn't seem obscene and ridiculous to you.

Why does Jesus or God have to die for anyone's sins? You say that as if it makes perfect sense, but for most non-Christians, that just sounds absurd. God, assuming he exists, has to die for everyone's sins, because supposedly he can't forgive people. God the perfect being, that lives in eternal, infinite, opulence and security, with perfectly manicured hands, never having to worry about getting sick or dying, much less being overpowered by anyone, is judging and condemning finite, mortal beings, who have to deal with all of the hazards, pain and suffering, poverty, fears, insecurities, diseases, and death, of earthly life. Has this deity that you grovel before, ever really experienced what it means to be truly human, like you and me?

You will respond by saying that Jesus supposedly is God incarnate and that's how God experienced being human, with all of its pain and suffering. But if you think about it, was Jesus truly human if he knew that he was born of the virgin Mary, came down from heaven, from a state of glory, and spent his life performing miracles, like raising the dead? He even admitted in the gospel of John that he would raise himself from the dead. Can you raise yourself from the dead? If you gave me the option to be tortured by Roman soldiers and then crucified for a few hours, with the guarantee that in a couple of days, I'm going to rise from the dead an immortal being, who will forever be young and king over the universe, I would run to the nearest Roman garrison, to receive my torture and execution.

When you and I walk into that dark room called death, we don't really know what we're stepping into. We face death as real, genuine, human beings, but your demi-god or God-man didn't really live a human life, as you and I. His life was completely empowered by divine, supernatural power and prerogatives, authority..etc, that you and I will never have, at least in this life time. Your version of Jesus isn't really human, but more like a divine demi-god or God incarnate. That's not human. Your version of God is going to torture people in hell for not accepting all of this Christian nonsense? How is he a good God, if he does that? Don't words in English have any meaning? Love, compassion, justice..etc. God is truly just and loving?

No, you Christians are confused and unfortunately, you're so afraid of death and your heavenly dictator being, that you don't care if Christian is just mythology. It makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside, and that's all that matters to you. You'll feel more warm and satisfaction once you come to terms with the truth and that is that, life is a mystery and we don't know what occurs after death. So we should live this life to the fullest and be good people. Be good, because life is better when we are good.

Don't tell me what I believe, you are not allowed to speak for me. But I'm not going to get baited into an off topic debate, so for the SECOND time now, please feel free to start a new thread on your favorite topics. I'm sure others would love to talk to you about it. No offense, but I am not interested in discussing those things with you, for a few reasons. I've seen how you post, you debate in a dishonest way in my experience. Plus you're far too much of an angry anti-christian to even try to have a genuine discussion with. I'm not going to keep repeating myself. Start a new thread, so you can rant and rave about how evil God is with others.

 

[TruthNotBS]

Don't tell me what I believe, you are not allowed to speak for me. But I'm not going to get baited into an off topic debate, so for the SECOND time now, please feel free to start a new thread on your favorite topics. I'm sure others would love to talk to you about it. No offense, but I am not interested in discussing those things with you, for a few reasons. I've seen how you post, you debate in a dishonest way in my experience. Plus you're far too much of an angry anti-christian to even try to have a genuine discussion with. I'm not going to keep repeating myself. Start a new thread, so you can rant and rave about how evil God is with others.

No Buttercup, I will challenge your poor reasoning and horrible assertions, whether you like it or not. This is a debate forum or at least a place where people discuss the issues and you ask a question, challenging people like me. Well, I'm up for the challenge you've presented and responded to it. You disingenuously accuse me of being immoral, and insincere, when all I'm doing is answering your question as honestly as I can. You're the one who is being immoral, for falsely accusing me of having ill intentions in my response to your challenge. I intend to defend my perspective, just as you are defending yours. So stop being so afraid, and face reality for once in your life. You will come out much stronger and happier. It's time to grow up.