Zone1 Did God give us free will to do evil?

[SweetSue92]

You mean? Here is the revelation that was given:

Doctrine and Covenant 89
Section 89

Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Kirtland, Ohio, February 27, 1833. As a consequence of the early brethren using tobacco in their meetings, the Prophet was led to ponder upon the matter; consequently, he inquired of the Lord concerning it. This revelation, known as the Word of Wisdom, was the result.

1–9, The use of wine, strong drinks, tobacco, and hot drinks is proscribed; 10–17, Herbs, fruits, flesh, and grain are ordained for the use of man and of animals; 18–21, Obedience to gospel law, including the Word of Wisdom, brings temporal and spiritual blessings.

1 A Word of Wisdom, for the benefit of the council of high priests, assembled in Kirtland, and the church, and also the saints in Zion—

2 To be sent greeting; not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the word of wisdom, showing forth the order and will of God in the temporal salvation of all saints in the last days—

3 Given for a principle with promise, adapted to the capacity of the weak and the weakest of all saints, who are or can be called saints.

4 Behold, verily, thus saith the Lord unto you: In consequence of evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days, I have warned you, and forewarn you, by giving unto you this word of wisdom by revelation—

5 That inasmuch as any man drinketh wine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father, only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him.

6 And, behold, this should be wine, yea, pure wine of the grape of the vine, of your own make.

7 And, again, strong drinks are not for the belly, but for the washing of your bodies.

8 And again, tobacco is not for the body, neither for the belly, and is not good for man, but is an herb for bruises and all sick cattle, to be used with judgment and skill.

9 And again, hot drinks are not for the body or belly.

10 And again, verily I say unto you, all wholesome herbs God hath ordained for the constitution, nature, and use of man—

11 Every herb in the season thereof, and every fruit in the season thereof; all these to be used with prudence and thanksgiving.

12 Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly;

13 And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine.

14 All grain is ordained for the use of man and of beasts, to be the staff of life, not only for man but for the beasts of the field, and the fowls of heaven, and all wild animals that run or creep on the earth;

15 And these hath God made for the use of man only in times of famine and excess of hunger.

16 All grain is good for the food of man; as also the fruit of the vine; that which yieldeth fruit, whether in the ground or above the ground—

17 Nevertheless, wheat for man, and corn for the ox, and oats for the horse, and rye for the fowls and for swine, and for all beasts of the field, and barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also other grain.

18 And all saints who remember to keep and do these sayings, walking in obedience to the commandments, shall receive health in their navel and marrow to their bones;

19 And shall find wisdom and great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures;

20 And shall run and not be weary, and shall walk and not faint.

21 And I, the Lord, give unto them a promise, that the destroying angel shall pass by them, as the children of Israel, and not slay them. Amen.

Mormon Life Expectancy​

Studies have shown that Mormons tend to have significantly higher life expectancies compared to other faiths. According to a 25-year study conducted by UCLA professors James E. Enstrom and Lester Breslow from 1980 to 2004, active California Mormons had unusually low standardized mortality ratios (SMRs) for all causes of death.23 For individuals aged 25-99 years at entry, the SMR for all causes of death was 0.45 (0.42-0.48) for males and 0.55 (0.51-0.59) for females. This translates to life expectancies of 84 years for males and 86 years for females from age 25.1

Another study comparing life expectancy between members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS or Mormons) and non-LDS in Utah found that life expectancy was 77.3 for LDS males, 70.0 for non-LDS males, 82.2 for LDS females, and 76.4 for non-LDS females.4 Even after removing deaths associated with tobacco use, the difference in life expectancy remained significant, indicating that factors beyond just tobacco use contribute to the longevity of Mormons.4

These studies suggest that several healthy characteristics of the Mormon lifestyle, such as abstention from tobacco and alcohol, adherence to a healthy diet, and emphasis on family life and education, are associated with substantially reduced death rates and increased life expectancy.

NONE of this addresses the love of sodas from Mormons vs. coffee and tea.

Sodas--pure or artificial sugars

Coffee and tea--natural antioxidants and other benefits

You were saying?

 

[onefour1]

NONE of this addresses the love of sodas from Mormons vs. coffee and tea.

Sodas--pure or artificial sugars

Coffee and tea--natural antioxidants and other benefits

You were saying?

Well basically we do drink sodas but not coffee and certain teas. A high life expectancy is a blessing for living the word of wisdom.

 

[Ringo]

 

[Paradoxical#1]

Forget the 613 Commandments. As Rabbi Hillel said, "Love God and love your neighbor. All else is commentary."

That's not what your Lord Jesus said. Remember, he is/was also the god of the OT. "I and the father are ONE." BTW, heaven and earth have not passed away in case you haven't noticed.

 

[onefour1]

Forget the 613 Commandments. As Rabbi Hillel said, "Love God and love your neighbor. All else is commentary."

To love God is not to forget his commandments but to keep all of his commandments because you love Him.

 

[Meriweather]

To love God is not to forget his commandments but to keep all of his commandments because you love Him.

Keep in mind Hillel's intent. The 613 Commandments answered the questions, How and what do I do to love God? How and what do I do to love others?

Remember, 'love' is not a feeling. Love is wanting the good and working for the good of the other. How/What do we do to love God: By putting him first We are obedient to him, putting him first in everything. We keep holy his day. Here comes the question of "How do we keep his day holy?" Some commandments arose to answer this. Only walk a certain amount of steps. If you are a tailor, make sure you remove any needles you have pinned to your clothes. Don't gather wheat. Jesus pointed out that sometimes people become so overly enthusiastic about the Law, it becomes a burden. He said instead to take up his yoke, which is easy, and the burden light.

As for loving others: I like the way Gayle Sayers put it: God is first; others second; I am third.

 

[ding]

Did God give us free will to do evil?​

No. God gave us free will to choose between doing good and not doing good.

 

[Godboy]

Atheists often attack Judaism and Christianity by asking the question, Why would an all powerful God create a fallen world with so much unmerited suffering.

1. The Calvanist Christians tend to lean into the logic of the problem of evil. Since God is good and God created all evil, that evil has to be good in ways that we can't yet understand including damning the souls to excruciating torment for all eternity.

2. Arminian strains of Christianity try to get around this by saying that God could create beings that are truly independent of God's will that could sin of their own accord. But, even then God's omniscience and omnipotence still makes God fully complicit in that evil since he could both fully predict it and readily put a stop to it.

If you don't like these usual reasons, then perhaps you might like this one:

3. Human beings are self existent in the same way God is. We have always existed before coming to this earth. There are at least parts of us that God didn't create like maybe our energy or intelligence. And that means that we bear only our responsibility for our choices. Because they stem at least in part from our then eternal nature. In that context, evil and suffering isn't something that God just cooked up one day or the opposite of good that would naturally appear like darkness being the absence of light where God would still be the creator of evil. And, therefore, Damnation isn't something he doles out to administer cosmic justice. They are part of us and part of the reality we live in. God has to work with that and navigate that. This is why he can weep along side us as we experience that suffering. And, he graciously offers the Atonement to help us overcome it if we turn to Christ. In other words, we have had free will or choice to choose good and evil as God has too. We are therefore 100% responsible for our choice to choose and do good or choose and do evil. God didn't do it anymore than the devil makes you do evil.

What are your thoughts? Does option #3 help you understand Mr. Atheist that God didn't create evil or does he allow it? Forcing us to not do evil things by controlling our eternal free will intelligence would be evil by definition of Atheists. In my opinion, Options 1 or 2 don't work for the Atheist's question. Option #3 is the only logical reason that works. What say you?

God, the perfect infallable being made Adam and Eve. Then he decided to give them the desire to eat fruit, but he told them not to eat it. Then he made a talking snake convince them to eat this fruit. Then he got mad when they ate the fruit.

Humans can only be what God made them to be, but then he gets all pissy when they behave EXACTLY how they were designed to behave?

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Why didn't Jesus talk about this?

Mormonism opposes what was taught by Jesus and the apostles. That teaching is NOT biblical

 

[Meriweather]

God, the perfect infallable being made Adam and Eve. Then he decided to give them the desire to eat fruit, but he told them not to eat it. Then he made a talking snake convince them to eat this fruit. Then he got mad when they ate the fruit.

Humans can only be what God made them to be, but then he gets all pissy when they behave EXACTLY how they were designed to behave?

Caricature and mockery of God! On a Sunday. Still, an interesting comic rendition of serious points.

 

[Godboy]

Caricature and mockery of God! On a Sunday. Still, an interesting comic rendition of serious points.

What a cop out!!! You had the opportunity to tell me how i was wrong, but THIS ^ is all you could come up with? Everyone sees you are avoiding the debate. You must not have faith in your own argument against me.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

God, the perfect infallable being made Adam and Eve. Then he decided to give them the desire to eat fruit, but he told them not to eat it. Then he made a talking snake convince them to eat this fruit. Then he got mad when they ate the fruit.

Humans can only be what God made them to be, but then he gets all pissy when they behave EXACTLY how they were designed to behave?

He gave you CHOICES because you need freedom to choose whether you follow God or the devil in his rebellion against God.

This life is a TEST to determine if you deserve ETERNAL LIFE, which is why this Mormon doctrine is abhorrent to Christians

 

[Ringo]

Did God give us free will to do evil?

No, only God's chosen people are allowed to do that.

 

[Meriweather]

What a cop out!!! You had the opportunity to tell me how i was wrong, but THIS ^ is all you could come up with? Everyone sees you are avoiding the debate. You must not have faith in your own argument against me.

Seriously?!? You don't know how you were wrong--it wasn't a serious caricature of how a situation can be skewed?!?

Let's go back to God's creation. He saw that it was good. We also know that God is love and his creation was an expression of this love. We know that angels and mankind were give free will. Mankind knew only good. God pointed out another tree in the garden--the tree of knowledge of both good and evil. The serpent basically told them, If you think good tastes good, have a taste of evil/wrong-doing!

Eve was tempted. (Who isn't tempted by wrong-doing, or maybe just a small bite of it. Isn't it fun, every so often?) Now the Hebrew people have a sidebar to this story. This story goes on to say that that since God put the tree in the garden, it was clear it was--at some time--be ready for Adam and Eve. It says Eve picked at ate it too soon. Jews remind themselves of this by not eating the fruit the first year a new tree produces its crop.

It's interesting that both Adam and Eve recognized they had changed everything, that they had done something wrong. So they hid. God calls them to him and provides them will clothes in which to hide themselves.

Why do you think God is angry? There is no reason for him to be angry as he knows he can bring good out of evil. However, Adam and Eve's actions brought about unintended consequences, which God shares with them. Isn't it more likely, God wants Adam and Eve to be prepared with what comes next?

If you are thinking, Why doesn't God snap his fingers and make everything right in an instant. Scripture tells us our time is not the same for God. For God an instant is a thousand years, a thousand years is an instant. Right how, God is working to make things right. Are you working with him...or against him? In other words, when faced with a little bit of fun that is clearly wrong, do you take that small bite? Or do you do what is right?

 

[OneIsTheWord]

No, the Lord gave you free will to make better choices
Evil is the substance of ignorance

 

[BreezeWood]

if we didnt have free will we would basically be a plant ...

all beings have free will -

why desert dwellers refer otherwise is the depth of their deliberate distortions for the value of life itself replaced by their own self interest.

 

[Cougarbear]

God, the perfect infallable being made Adam and Eve. Then he decided to give them the desire to eat fruit, but he told them not to eat it. Then he made a talking snake convince them to eat this fruit. Then he got mad when they ate the fruit.

Humans can only be what God made them to be, but then he gets all pissy when they behave EXACTLY how they were designed to behave?

You assume Adam’s being is only his physical body. As the Lord said of Jeremiah, he knew him before Jeremiah was conceived. Father and Mother in Heaven made our spirits and placed our eternal and always existed intelligence into our spirit bodies. It’s our intelligence that has always existed with the right to choose good or evil.

Without true knowledge of where we came from, it’s just a guess why we are here and exactly where we are going with details.

 

[onefour1]

God, the perfect infallable being made Adam and Eve. Then he decided to give them the desire to eat fruit, but he told them not to eat it. Then he made a talking snake convince them to eat this fruit. Then he got mad when they ate the fruit.

Humans can only be what God made them to be, but then he gets all pissy when they behave EXACTLY how they were designed to behave?

God knew before Adam and Eve were ever placed on this earth that they would fall and go through mortality. For this reason Jesus was called to be a Savior and Redeemer before the foundation of this earth. It was all part of the plan. If God knew that Adam and Eve would fall before the foundation of this earth, if he didn't really want them to fall God would have not cast Satan and his minions into the earth to tempt mankind nor would he have placed the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden or allow the snake to speak with Eve. But God knowing the end from the beginning called Christ before the foundation of this earth to be a Savior, He did cast Satan and his minions into this earth knowing they would tempt us, He did place the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden and commanded Adam and Eve not to partake of it even though he knew they would. Why would God do all these things if he was absolutely against Adam and Eve going through the fall? He knew they would fall even before He placed them on the earth in the garden. He even provided a Savior for them from before the foundation of this earth.

1 Peter 1:19-21
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

God actually planned for the fall of man. I don't think God got all pissy upon the fall but it was all part of the plan.

 

[el midgetron]

“Did God give us free will to do evil?”​

Yep.

Another possibility is that God exists independent of the context of good and evil. He is above that dichotomy. Good and evil are constructs he created for us to be able understand the good of God. The choice is ours.

I believe God created this existence and all the laws that govern it. The answer to the people who wonder why an “all powerful God create a fallen world with so much unmerited suffering” is because that didn’t exist in God’s kingdom (heaven) and we have a purpose for being here. Or in other words, why would God create a reality that mirrored his own?

 

[presonorek]

Atheists often attack Judaism and Christianity by asking the question, Why would an all powerful God create a fallen world with so much unmerited suffering.

1. The Calvanist Christians tend to lean into the logic of the problem of evil. Since God is good and God created all evil, that evil has to be good in ways that we can't yet understand including damning the souls to excruciating torment for all eternity.

2. Arminian strains of Christianity try to get around this by saying that God could create beings that are truly independent of God's will that could sin of their own accord. But, even then God's omniscience and omnipotence still makes God fully complicit in that evil since he could both fully predict it and readily put a stop to it.

If you don't like these usual reasons, then perhaps you might like this one:

3. Human beings are self existent in the same way God is. We have always existed before coming to this earth. There are at least parts of us that God didn't create like maybe our energy or intelligence. And that means that we bear only our responsibility for our choices. Because they stem at least in part from our then eternal nature. In that context, evil and suffering isn't something that God just cooked up one day or the opposite of good that would naturally appear like darkness being the absence of light where God would still be the creator of evil. And, therefore, Damnation isn't something he doles out to administer cosmic justice. They are part of us and part of the reality we live in. God has to work with that and navigate that. This is why he can weep along side us as we experience that suffering. And, he graciously offers the Atonement to help us overcome it if we turn to Christ. In other words, we have had free will or choice to choose good and evil as God has too. We are therefore 100% responsible for our choice to choose and do good or choose and do evil. God didn't do it anymore than the devil makes you do evil.

What are your thoughts? Does option #3 help you understand Mr. Atheist that God didn't create evil or does he allow it? Forcing us to not do evil things by controlling our eternal free will intelligence would be evil by definition of Atheists. In my opinion, Options 1 or 2 don't work for the Atheist's question. Option #3 is the only logical reason that works. What say you?

In our lifetime we consume tens of thousands of animals. Other animals kill other animals to live. The world is a violent place. Humans don't like this violence so humans created harsher methods of violence to reduce violence with police, prisons, war, guns, weapons, etc. Humans don't like violence so they create mass violence factories to process meat for us so we don't have to. (ever notice those serious contradictions?) Evil is necessary for survival for all species on the planet to maintain their existence. The human is no exception. The more civilized we become the more barbaric we become. Humans are without competition the most violent species. Enjoy your chicken that you eat tonight that was provided to you courtesy of a violent human hand. People are just evil. Sometimes the evil ones are on your side. Sometimes they are not. God or no God, the world is evil. Every human heart could be ruled by good starting today and every human in the world would be dead within a year. The violent animals would continue to thrive. The structure of the world is evil. Unless God is going to build a different world then I don't see what choice we have.

It is depressing trying to figure this stuff out. Just protect yourself and maximize your survival techniques.