'Anti-Zionism Is Anti-Semitic'?

[flacaltenn]

And the Palestinians firmly believe Israel intends to expel them in entirety. What's your point?

Certainly that was not gonna happen in Gaza in 2004. Or now.. But they ARE in danger of losing land in the West Bank because they are not prepared to negotiate. They are farther from gaining sovereignty there then they were 10 years ago. And that's not Israel's fault. There is NO ONE to negotiate with. It's been over 50 years.. And other than Arafat and the brief existence of the PA -- there was no opportunity to negotiate.

They shouldn't lose any land in the WB - those that own the land should be able to keep it. Yes? No?

There are SOME valid Jewish ties to the West Bank. Like the monument in Hebron where some think Abraham is buried. In this case --- "land swaps" could be arranged. But having 500 settlers in Hebron --- does NOT make Hebron "an Israeli city".. Israel completely swept out Jewish settlers by force to release Gaza. There will have to be some of that again. But after 60 years -- it's getting increasingly difficult to FORCE an Apartheid like deal.

When do you think the Palis are gonna be ready to form a government? If it's another 50 years -- there are NO guarantees to land claims..

To add to that, anti-Zionists could care less about the so called Palestinians. The reason they are so obsessed with this conflict has to do with their antisemitism, hence the title of this thread. Especially when you look at the number of Muslims (and Christians and other non Muslims) that are being killed at the hands of other Muslims it becomes even more obvious what the motivation is.

Bullshit. The anti-semitism canard is used to attempt to stifle any criticism of Israel's policies. There is plenty of criticism of Muslim behavior in the appropriate sections of this site.

Not to me. You are COMPLETELY free to criticize ANY policies of Israel.. Not anti-Jewish at all.. I EVEN do it regularly and I'm not anti-Jewish. ISRAELIs criticize Israeli policy constantly. So you're in GOOD company.

But if you invoke the Z-Word --- you need to justify the RELEVANCE of being a Zionist today. It is no longer really a Political entity anymore. But IT IS a Religious concept related to Jews LIVING in Israel.

Thus --- being Anti-Zionist NOW means you oppose Jews living a Biblical prophesy in Israel. It's that simple.

 

[montelatici]

They shouldn't lose any land in the WB - those that own the land should be able to keep it. Yes? No?

There are SOME valid Jewish ties to the West Bank. Like the monument in Hebron where some think Abraham is buried. In this case --- "land swaps" could be arranged. But having 500 settlers in Hebron --- does NOT make Hebron "an Israeli city".. Israel completely swept out Jewish settlers by force to release Gaza. There will have to be some of that again. But after 60 years -- it's getting increasingly difficult to FORCE an Apartheid like deal.

When do you think the Palis are gonna be ready to form a government? If it's another 50 years -- there are NO guarantees to land claims..

To add to that, anti-Zionists could care less about the so called Palestinians. The reason they are so obsessed with this conflict has to do with their antisemitism, hence the title of this thread. Especially when you look at the number of Muslims (and Christians and other non Muslims) that are being killed at the hands of other Muslims it becomes even more obvious what the motivation is.

The whole exercise of separating anti-zionism from anti-Jewish is ridiculous when you apply it to ISRAELIS. When attacked, THEY are not gonna ponder whether they are being attacked because they are Jewish or because they are Israelis.

WE -- wouldn't make that distinction either if ISIS came across our borders and attacked Jewish targets or Christian targets. Oh my -- did they do it because we're Americans? Or did they do it because we're Christians?


Zionism WAS an effort in nationalism. Today -- it's an EXCUSE to hate on Israelis or just any ole Jew..

So tell me.. If you are an Israeli Jew --- how could you love your country, but HATE Zionism --- if not for obscure Biblical justifications? (which a handful of Orthodox proclaim)

Or if you're an American (or Aussie) --- You can't be vehemently anti-Zionist and support Israels' Right to Exist. So on WHAT PLANET is being anti-Zionist NOT anti-Jewish if you deeply desire to see a forced Exodus of Jews from Israel?

OR -- if you are one of the regulars here that sling that Z-Word repeatedly -- don't be advertising how many Jew friends you have.. There's a difference between protesting and objecting to the POLICIES of the State of Israel and using the Z-word....

Zionism, just as Manifest Destiny, justified the dispossession of the native people. One can criticize Manifest Destiny (and what it did to the native americans) and not be anti-American.

Lamenting the collapse of the invading / colonizing Turk empire.

Learn to live with it. The era of your muhammedan heroes slaughtering their way across North Africa and Europe is in the past. It was the collapse of the Turk empire that allowed the allied powers to facilitate the emergence of Israel - a western style democracy in an otherwise theocratic-totalitarian dystopia.

One can criticize a crushing islamo-theocracy and the slaughter that accompanied the wars of conquest and colonization that occurred after the death of Islam's inventor and be correct in denigrating islamo-fascism.

 

[flacaltenn]

There are SOME valid Jewish ties to the West Bank. Like the monument in Hebron where some think Abraham is buried. In this case --- "land swaps" could be arranged. But having 500 settlers in Hebron --- does NOT make Hebron "an Israeli city".. Israel completely swept out Jewish settlers by force to release Gaza. There will have to be some of that again. But after 60 years -- it's getting increasingly difficult to FORCE an Apartheid like deal.

When do you think the Palis are gonna be ready to form a government? If it's another 50 years -- there are NO guarantees to land claims..

To add to that, anti-Zionists could care less about the so called Palestinians. The reason they are so obsessed with this conflict has to do with their antisemitism, hence the title of this thread. Especially when you look at the number of Muslims (and Christians and other non Muslims) that are being killed at the hands of other Muslims it becomes even more obvious what the motivation is.

The whole exercise of separating anti-zionism from anti-Jewish is ridiculous when you apply it to ISRAELIS. When attacked, THEY are not gonna ponder whether they are being attacked because they are Jewish or because they are Israelis.

WE -- wouldn't make that distinction either if ISIS came across our borders and attacked Jewish targets or Christian targets. Oh my -- did they do it because we're Americans? Or did they do it because we're Christians?


Zionism WAS an effort in nationalism. Today -- it's an EXCUSE to hate on Israelis or just any ole Jew..

So tell me.. If you are an Israeli Jew --- how could you love your country, but HATE Zionism --- if not for obscure Biblical justifications? (which a handful of Orthodox proclaim)

Or if you're an American (or Aussie) --- You can't be vehemently anti-Zionist and support Israels' Right to Exist. So on WHAT PLANET is being anti-Zionist NOT anti-Jewish if you deeply desire to see a forced Exodus of Jews from Israel?

OR -- if you are one of the regulars here that sling that Z-Word repeatedly -- don't be advertising how many Jew friends you have.. There's a difference between protesting and objecting to the POLICIES of the State of Israel and using the Z-word....

Zionism, just as Manifest Destiny, justified the dispossession of the native people. One can criticize Manifest Destiny (and what it did to the native americans) and not be anti-American.

Not to sound confrontational -- But so what are you gonna do about it?

I mean -- now when Zionism AND Manifest Destiny are both Historical curiosities..

If your plan involves lots of moving vans and armed guards -- that might answer the OP question..

When Zionism becomes an historical curiosity, it will probably be looked upon are Manifest Destiny or the American Colonization Society (Liberia) Charter is looked upon today. Your buddies are the ones that see "flattening" Gaza and ethnically cleansing the West Bank as solutions. I have always said, the only solution now is the establishment of a democratic and secular state for all the people of Palestine. And, that's what I believe will happen eventually.

Good luck selling your "unified Palestine" concept to the Palestinians. Are you SERIOUS?? Is THAT what your 12000 posts were REALLY about?

If it wasn't for those damn Zionists -- Monte could open his "fairly apportioned" Holy Land and teach the British how to do the Imperialistic thingy. Could be called the State of Holy Monte..

You go pitch that plan to Hamas and the folks in Ramallah and let us know how that works out....

 

[Dogmaphobe]

And, frankly, your insistence that there are some Jews who are opposed to Zionism is just another way to undermine the concept of Zionism by saying, "See? Even the Jews think its a bad idea".

The crazy little sect called the Neturei Karta are veritable rock stars among anti-Semites who trot them out at every opportunity for just that reason.

 

[montelatici]

Certainly that was not gonna happen in Gaza in 2004. Or now.. But they ARE in danger of losing land in the West Bank because they are not prepared to negotiate. They are farther from gaining sovereignty there then they were 10 years ago. And that's not Israel's fault. There is NO ONE to negotiate with. It's been over 50 years.. And other than Arafat and the brief existence of the PA -- there was no opportunity to negotiate.

They shouldn't lose any land in the WB - those that own the land should be able to keep it. Yes? No?

There are SOME valid Jewish ties to the West Bank. Like the monument in Hebron where some think Abraham is buried. In this case --- "land swaps" could be arranged. But having 500 settlers in Hebron --- does NOT make Hebron "an Israeli city".. Israel completely swept out Jewish settlers by force to release Gaza. There will have to be some of that again. But after 60 years -- it's getting increasingly difficult to FORCE an Apartheid like deal.

When do you think the Palis are gonna be ready to form a government? If it's another 50 years -- there are NO guarantees to land claims..

To add to that, anti-Zionists could care less about the so called Palestinians. The reason they are so obsessed with this conflict has to do with their antisemitism, hence the title of this thread. Especially when you look at the number of Muslims (and Christians and other non Muslims) that are being killed at the hands of other Muslims it becomes even more obvious what the motivation is.

Bullshit. The anti-semitism canard is used to attempt to stifle any criticism of Israel's policies. There is plenty of criticism of Muslim behavior in the appropriate sections of this site.

Not to me. You are COMPLETELY free to criticize ANY policies of Israel.. Not anti-Jewish at all.. I EVEN do it regularly and I'm not anti-Jewish. ISRAELIs criticize Israeli policy constantly. So you're in GOOD company.

But if you invoke the Z-Word --- you need to justify the RELEVANCE of being a Zionist today. It is no longer really a Political entity anymore. But IT IS a Religious concept related to Jews LIVING in Israel.

Thus --- being Anti-Zionist NOW means you oppose Jews living a Biblical prophesy in Israel. It's that simple.

Zionism was a political nationalist movement. Nothing religious about it. It may have been hijacked by religious nutters, but that's not what Herzl intended. When Joseph Chamberlain offered a large part of Uganda as a land for the Zionists, the Zionists decided against it after a survey because it was inhabited by large numbers of hostile Maasai. The native Palestinians seemed less hostile, apparently. So all the Zionists wanted was a place they could colonize and rule, nothing religious about original Zionism. The founders of Zionism were not very religious and many like, Max Nordau were militant atheists while many were agnostic socialists.

 

[montelatici]

To add to that, anti-Zionists could care less about the so called Palestinians. The reason they are so obsessed with this conflict has to do with their antisemitism, hence the title of this thread. Especially when you look at the number of Muslims (and Christians and other non Muslims) that are being killed at the hands of other Muslims it becomes even more obvious what the motivation is.

The whole exercise of separating anti-zionism from anti-Jewish is ridiculous when you apply it to ISRAELIS. When attacked, THEY are not gonna ponder whether they are being attacked because they are Jewish or because they are Israelis.

WE -- wouldn't make that distinction either if ISIS came across our borders and attacked Jewish targets or Christian targets. Oh my -- did they do it because we're Americans? Or did they do it because we're Christians?


Zionism WAS an effort in nationalism. Today -- it's an EXCUSE to hate on Israelis or just any ole Jew..

So tell me.. If you are an Israeli Jew --- how could you love your country, but HATE Zionism --- if not for obscure Biblical justifications? (which a handful of Orthodox proclaim)

Or if you're an American (or Aussie) --- You can't be vehemently anti-Zionist and support Israels' Right to Exist. So on WHAT PLANET is being anti-Zionist NOT anti-Jewish if you deeply desire to see a forced Exodus of Jews from Israel?

OR -- if you are one of the regulars here that sling that Z-Word repeatedly -- don't be advertising how many Jew friends you have.. There's a difference between protesting and objecting to the POLICIES of the State of Israel and using the Z-word....

Zionism, just as Manifest Destiny, justified the dispossession of the native people. One can criticize Manifest Destiny (and what it did to the native americans) and not be anti-American.

Not to sound confrontational -- But so what are you gonna do about it?

I mean -- now when Zionism AND Manifest Destiny are both Historical curiosities..

If your plan involves lots of moving vans and armed guards -- that might answer the OP question..

When Zionism becomes an historical curiosity, it will probably be looked upon are Manifest Destiny or the American Colonization Society (Liberia) Charter is looked upon today. Your buddies are the ones that see "flattening" Gaza and ethnically cleansing the West Bank as solutions. I have always said, the only solution now is the establishment of a democratic and secular state for all the people of Palestine. And, that's what I believe will happen eventually.

Good luck selling your "unified Palestine" concept to the Palestinians. Are you SERIOUS?? Is THAT what your 12000 posts were REALLY about?

If it wasn't for those damn Zionists -- Monte could open his "fairly apportioned" Holy Land and teach the British how to do the Imperialistic thingy. Could be called the State of Holy Monte..

You go pitch that plan to Hamas and the folks in Ramallah and let us know how that works out....

The Palestinians, including the "folks in Ramallah" have given up on having a Palestinian state. Abbas has said as much. Hamas is a radical Islamist party that does not represent the majority of the Palestinians.

The Israeli Jews can rule over millions of non-Jews not allowing the majority of them to vote, but how many generations can that last as the non-Jews become a majority, even excluding Gaza? You tell me.

 

[Coyote]

This is a bit of an aside Shusha, but some DID invision an exclusively Jewish state - this came up when I was reading about the Dar Yassin massacre - there were factions that DID want exactly that.

But again, ask WHY. Why did they envision an exclusively Jewish State? What was the purpose of that? Was it a "nefarious plan" or only the desperate need for the Jewish people to be SAFE?

It appeared, from what I read to be ideological in nature, and they were not part of the mainstream.

Also, be careful of painting the whole group with the same broad brush. And of applying modern moral standards to past events. And of bringing forward past events as though they give us clues about today's issues or beliefs.

This is where I get a little bit touchy. First, I was careful in my wording - I try very hard to avoid broadbrushing and I used the term "some" for a reason. Second, bringing forward past events CAN be relevant - especially when you are trying to examine people's present beliefs. What the Palestinians and Israeli's believe about the other's intentions (whether accurate or not) is based upon past history that is still very much shaping their opinions about the other: Whether it is the belief that the Palestinians want to "drive the Jews to the sea" or the Palestinian belief that the Jews want to expel all Arabs, those beliefs were formed out of the past and kept alive by present day events and beliefs.

This is where even the most fair minded of people can slide into a kind of wrong-thinking that is harmful, possibly without meaning to be.

You can't look at present day events in temporal isolation if you want to understand them

That a small portion of the population, according to the thinking of the time (which was much more open to population transfers in order to create ethnically cohesive states) believed a thing says exactly NOTHING about today's Israel or today's Israelis.

But it does, doesn't it - almost 50% of Israeli's in a public opinion poll want to expel all Arabs. There are significant minorities that feel Arabs should not have the same rights as Jewish citizens. Some of these beliefs have their basis in current upswings in violence but some of them likely also have their basis in the differing visions the various groups had for their state. When we are talking about what people believe about the other, and what feeds those beliefs (whether accurate or not) - these things are relevant and attempting to label it anti-semetic seems to me a way shutting off discussion.

I'll give an outside example (this doesn't just apply to Israel). Racism in America - discussing racial issues is very touchy. Many blacks harbor a strong distrust in both authority (such as police) and the government. In order to understand where it comes from - you HAVE to examine the past. You have to look at things like Tuskeegee, and what the government authorities at the time did to blacks because it shaped the beliefs that are prevalent today.

And by making statements like the one you did -- you draw a parallel which is UNFAIRLY judgmental about Israel and Israelis today. The implication being that if factions DID want that, then factions DO STILL want that and thus it was a "nefarious plan".

I absolutely disagree. Are Israeli's different than any other people? I doubt it. I'm sure they have their ideological extremists, their bigots, etc. just like any other society. Yet, for some reason, we are not allowed to bring it up? The argument on one side is - why is Israel always singled out? The flip side, which is ignored - is why can't Israel be criticized like any other people? And that is happening here - it can't be. We can talk about bigots and extremists among the Palestinians. We can talk about ideological anti-government whackos in Idaho - and we aren't accused of singling out Palestinians or Idaho'ans. We can talk about the rape problems in India, and not be accused of unfairly portraying India. But we can't touch Israel?

I see none of the above as "anti-semetic, and trying to make it so essentially shuts off discussion.

Again, I am not saying that was your intent, but it comes off that way. Else why bring it up? As opposed to responding to the IMPORTANT POINT in my post, which is: the Jewish people are still (STILL!) concerned for survival.

Because part of the discussion in this thread that led up to your post (this thread has gotten lengthy) involved what each side believed about the other and how rational it was. When you say the following:

Yet the evidence over the past 100 years of conflict has demonstrated the opposite -- the Jewish people and the State of Israel have consistently expressed the desire for a democratic and multi-cultural State. And Israel is indeed those things in action.

You're ignoring the fact that the Jewish people don't speak with one unified voice, that some did indeed invision a Jewish only state, and those beliefs do carry on to the present in a minority of Jews. How prevalent those views were are hard to ascertain but they exist and it does matter to this argument. Does that make it "anti-semitic"?

 

[Shusha]

Neither the Romans nor the Arabians nor the Crusaders nor the Ottomans migrated to Palestine to replace the existing inhabitants with their own people. They conquered and ruled the native people, exploiting them of course. Much like the Romans did in Britain or the Moors in Spain. Once they left or were forced to leave other rulers replaced them, the people stayed the same, adopting some aspects of the culture of the rulers. Even as recently as 100 years ago, once the Ottoman rulers left Palestine, the people remained the same, they didn't magically become Turks. I just wonder why this is so difficult to understand.

Its not in the least difficult to understand. And, in fact, it is a terrific argument for the rights of the Palestinian people.

The problem is not your arguing for the rights of the Palestinian people. The problem is your arguments AGAINST the Jewish people.

Let's take a look at those:

We agree, I would hope, that the Jewish people existed, as a people, as a culture, and as a nation (in the meaning of the times) on that territory thousands of years ago.

We agree, I would hope, that those Jewish people were invaded and conquered by a succession of foreigners. (Whether as migrants or as rulers is rather immaterial).

We agree, I would hope, that some of the Jewish people adopted the invading cultures; that some of the Jewish people stayed and remained Jews; that some of the Jewish people were forcibly displaced and that some of the Jewish people voluntarily emmigrated.

(Anyone disputing any of the above is SURE to be anti-semitic since these are just basic realities.)

Given the clear and undeniable engagement of the Jewish people with their own history, ancestry and religious origins in their homeland -- the question is WHY anyone would attempt to deny that engagement. And how any denial of that engagement could be considered valid criticism of Israel.

 

[Shusha]

The flip side, which is ignored - is why can't Israel be criticized like any other people? And that is happening here - it can't be.

I see none of the above as "anti-semetic, and trying to make it so essentially shuts off discussion.

Israel CAN be criticized like any other people. But it isn't. 3/4s of the discussion on I/P is centered around Israel's lack of legitimacy. With a good dose of just plain blatant "Jews are terrible" thrown in for flavour.

Where are the threads and discussions about actual policy? Who is talking about actual policy, besides you and I and flacaltenn when he (?) pops in now and again?

I WISH we could talk about actual policy more often.

 

[Coyote]

The flip side, which is ignored - is why can't Israel be criticized like any other people? And that is happening here - it can't be.

I see none of the above as "anti-semetic, and trying to make it so essentially shuts off discussion.

Israel CAN be criticized like any other people. But it isn't. 3/4s of the discussion on I/P is centered around Israel's lack of legitimacy. With a good dose of just plain blatant "Jews are terrible" thrown in for flavour.

Where are the threads and discussions about actual policy? Who is talking about actual policy, besides you and I and flacaltenn when he (?) pops in now and again?

I WISH we could talk about actual policy more often.

I so agree. I also agree with your statements about IP though but believe it or not, it's better than it used to be and I for one, very much appreciate your ability to keep conversations steered and focused. There are some good discussions going on as a result.

 

[Shusha]

I so agree. I also agree with your statements about IP though but believe it or not, it's better than it used to be and I for one, very much appreciate your ability to keep conversations steered and focused. There are some good discussions going on as a result.

Thank you. I think it is what we MUST do if we are ever to find solutions to the problems. And I do think it is the reason why it is important to define and call out anti-semitism -- not to shut down the conversation -- but to push the conversation forward and beyond "Israel has no right to exist and the Jewish people are not really a people and Jews are terrible".

The Jewish people are (clearly!) a people. And the Israel does, actually, in fact, exist. And, to be fair and honest the Palestinian people are a people. And Palestine will exist if they want it to. (Not if we want it to -- if THEY want it to).

The sooner we all just acknowledge that and start working on what to DO with that information -- the better for everyone.

 

[Roudy]

Certainly that was not gonna happen in Gaza in 2004. Or now.. But they ARE in danger of losing land in the West Bank because they are not prepared to negotiate. They are farther from gaining sovereignty there then they were 10 years ago. And that's not Israel's fault. There is NO ONE to negotiate with. It's been over 50 years.. And other than Arafat and the brief existence of the PA -- there was no opportunity to negotiate.

They shouldn't lose any land in the WB - those that own the land should be able to keep it. Yes? No?

There are SOME valid Jewish ties to the West Bank. Like the monument in Hebron where some think Abraham is buried. In this case --- "land swaps" could be arranged. But having 500 settlers in Hebron --- does NOT make Hebron "an Israeli city".. Israel completely swept out Jewish settlers by force to release Gaza. There will have to be some of that again. But after 60 years -- it's getting increasingly difficult to FORCE an Apartheid like deal.

When do you think the Palis are gonna be ready to form a government? If it's another 50 years -- there are NO guarantees to land claims..

To add to that, anti-Zionists could care less about the so called Palestinians. The reason they are so obsessed with this conflict has to do with their antisemitism, hence the title of this thread. Especially when you look at the number of Muslims (and Christians and other non Muslims) that are being killed at the hands of other Muslims it becomes even more obvious what the motivation is.

The whole exercise of separating anti-zionism from anti-Jewish is ridiculous when you apply it to ISRAELIS. When attacked, THEY are not gonna ponder whether they are being attacked because they are Jewish or because they are Israelis.

WE -- wouldn't make that distinction either if ISIS came across our borders and attacked Jewish targets or Christian targets. Oh my -- did they do it because we're Americans? Or did they do it because we're Christians?


Zionism WAS an effort in nationalism. Today -- it's an EXCUSE to hate on Israelis or just any ole Jew..

So tell me.. If you are an Israeli Jew --- how could you love your country, but HATE Zionism --- if not for obscure Biblical justifications? (which a handful of Orthodox proclaim)

Or if you're an American (or Aussie) --- You can't be vehemently anti-Zionist and support Israels' Right to Exist. So on WHAT PLANET is being anti-Zionist NOT anti-Jewish if you deeply desire to see a forced Exodus of Jews from Israel?

OR -- if you are one of the regulars here that sling that Z-Word repeatedly -- don't be advertising how many Jew friends you have.. There's a difference between protesting and objecting to the POLICIES of the State of Israel and using the Z-word....

Zionism, just as Manifest Destiny, justified the dispossession of the native people. One can criticize Manifest Destiny (and what it did to the native americans) and not be anti-American.

Since when did Arab Muslim invaders become "natives" of the land they invaded? The natives were the Jews, who got invaded and attacked over and over, yet maintained a presence and kept coming back.

 

[Roudy]

There are SOME valid Jewish ties to the West Bank. Like the monument in Hebron where some think Abraham is buried. In this case --- "land swaps" could be arranged. But having 500 settlers in Hebron --- does NOT make Hebron "an Israeli city".. Israel completely swept out Jewish settlers by force to release Gaza. There will have to be some of that again. But after 60 years -- it's getting increasingly difficult to FORCE an Apartheid like deal.

When do you think the Palis are gonna be ready to form a government? If it's another 50 years -- there are NO guarantees to land claims..

To add to that, anti-Zionists could care less about the so called Palestinians. The reason they are so obsessed with this conflict has to do with their antisemitism, hence the title of this thread. Especially when you look at the number of Muslims (and Christians and other non Muslims) that are being killed at the hands of other Muslims it becomes even more obvious what the motivation is.

The whole exercise of separating anti-zionism from anti-Jewish is ridiculous when you apply it to ISRAELIS. When attacked, THEY are not gonna ponder whether they are being attacked because they are Jewish or because they are Israelis.

WE -- wouldn't make that distinction either if ISIS came across our borders and attacked Jewish targets or Christian targets. Oh my -- did they do it because we're Americans? Or did they do it because we're Christians?


Zionism WAS an effort in nationalism. Today -- it's an EXCUSE to hate on Israelis or just any ole Jew..

So tell me.. If you are an Israeli Jew --- how could you love your country, but HATE Zionism --- if not for obscure Biblical justifications? (which a handful of Orthodox proclaim)

Or if you're an American (or Aussie) --- You can't be vehemently anti-Zionist and support Israels' Right to Exist. So on WHAT PLANET is being anti-Zionist NOT anti-Jewish if you deeply desire to see a forced Exodus of Jews from Israel?

OR -- if you are one of the regulars here that sling that Z-Word repeatedly -- don't be advertising how many Jew friends you have.. There's a difference between protesting and objecting to the POLICIES of the State of Israel and using the Z-word....

Zionism, just as Manifest Destiny, justified the dispossession of the native people. One can criticize Manifest Destiny (and what it did to the native americans) and not be anti-American.

Not to sound confrontational -- But so what are you gonna do about it?

I mean -- now when Zionism AND Manifest Destiny are both Historical curiosities..

If your plan involves lots of moving vans and armed guards -- that might answer the OP question..

When Zionism becomes an historical curiosity, it will probably be looked upon are Manifest Destiny or the American Colonization Society (Liberia) Charter is looked upon today. Your buddies are the ones that see "flattening" Gaza and ethnically cleansing the West Bank as solutions. I have always said, the only solution now is the establishment of a democratic and secular state for all the people of Palestine. And, that's what I believe will happen eventually.

No actually the more feasible solution is to negotiate an Egyptian takeover of Gaza (they're mostly Egyptian anyhow), and for Israel to annex the West Bank and call it by it's name for the last two thousand years, Judea and Samaria. A portion of the West Bank will be given back to be governed by the Jordanians, and the rest of the so called Palestinians will eventually migrate back into Jordan, where they came from. Either way, in two to three generations, the population of Israelis will overtake the Arab Muslims, so the annexation of the West Bank by Israel and handover of the remaining portion to Jordan will be more of a formality.

And considering that this ship has already sailed and in process, that is what is terrifying the so called Palestinians and their terrorist leadership the most.

 

[montelatici]

They shouldn't lose any land in the WB - those that own the land should be able to keep it. Yes? No?

There are SOME valid Jewish ties to the West Bank. Like the monument in Hebron where some think Abraham is buried. In this case --- "land swaps" could be arranged. But having 500 settlers in Hebron --- does NOT make Hebron "an Israeli city".. Israel completely swept out Jewish settlers by force to release Gaza. There will have to be some of that again. But after 60 years -- it's getting increasingly difficult to FORCE an Apartheid like deal.

When do you think the Palis are gonna be ready to form a government? If it's another 50 years -- there are NO guarantees to land claims..

To add to that, anti-Zionists could care less about the so called Palestinians. The reason they are so obsessed with this conflict has to do with their antisemitism, hence the title of this thread. Especially when you look at the number of Muslims (and Christians and other non Muslims) that are being killed at the hands of other Muslims it becomes even more obvious what the motivation is.

The whole exercise of separating anti-zionism from anti-Jewish is ridiculous when you apply it to ISRAELIS. When attacked, THEY are not gonna ponder whether they are being attacked because they are Jewish or because they are Israelis.

WE -- wouldn't make that distinction either if ISIS came across our borders and attacked Jewish targets or Christian targets. Oh my -- did they do it because we're Americans? Or did they do it because we're Christians?


Zionism WAS an effort in nationalism. Today -- it's an EXCUSE to hate on Israelis or just any ole Jew..

So tell me.. If you are an Israeli Jew --- how could you love your country, but HATE Zionism --- if not for obscure Biblical justifications? (which a handful of Orthodox proclaim)

Or if you're an American (or Aussie) --- You can't be vehemently anti-Zionist and support Israels' Right to Exist. So on WHAT PLANET is being anti-Zionist NOT anti-Jewish if you deeply desire to see a forced Exodus of Jews from Israel?

OR -- if you are one of the regulars here that sling that Z-Word repeatedly -- don't be advertising how many Jew friends you have.. There's a difference between protesting and objecting to the POLICIES of the State of Israel and using the Z-word....

Zionism, just as Manifest Destiny, justified the dispossession of the native people. One can criticize Manifest Destiny (and what it did to the native americans) and not be anti-American.

Since when did Arab Muslim invaders become "natives" of the land they invaded? The natives were the Jews, who got invaded and attacked over and over, yet maintained a presence and kept coming back.

The natives never invaded. They are the people that always lived on the land. The native people that practiced earlier religions began practicing the religion of the various rulers. Why can't you understand that basic fact? The European Jews were Europeans.

 

[Roudy]

They shouldn't lose any land in the WB - those that own the land should be able to keep it. Yes? No?

There are SOME valid Jewish ties to the West Bank. Like the monument in Hebron where some think Abraham is buried. In this case --- "land swaps" could be arranged. But having 500 settlers in Hebron --- does NOT make Hebron "an Israeli city".. Israel completely swept out Jewish settlers by force to release Gaza. There will have to be some of that again. But after 60 years -- it's getting increasingly difficult to FORCE an Apartheid like deal.

When do you think the Palis are gonna be ready to form a government? If it's another 50 years -- there are NO guarantees to land claims..

To add to that, anti-Zionists could care less about the so called Palestinians. The reason they are so obsessed with this conflict has to do with their antisemitism, hence the title of this thread. Especially when you look at the number of Muslims (and Christians and other non Muslims) that are being killed at the hands of other Muslims it becomes even more obvious what the motivation is.

Bullshit. The anti-semitism canard is used to attempt to stifle any criticism of Israel's policies. There is plenty of criticism of Muslim behavior in the appropriate sections of this site.

Not to me. You are COMPLETELY free to criticize ANY policies of Israel.. Not anti-Jewish at all.. I EVEN do it regularly and I'm not anti-Jewish. ISRAELIs criticize Israeli policy constantly. So you're in GOOD company.

But if you invoke the Z-Word --- you need to justify the RELEVANCE of being a Zionist today. It is no longer really a Political entity anymore. But IT IS a Religious concept related to Jews LIVING in Israel.

Thus --- being Anti-Zionist NOW means you oppose Jews living a Biblical prophesy in Israel. It's that simple.

Zionism was a political nationalist movement. Nothing religious about it. It may have been hijacked by religious nutters, but that's not what Herzl intended. When Joseph Chamberlain offered a large part of Uganda as a land for the Zionists, the Zionists decided against it after a survey because it was inhabited by large numbers of hostile Maasai. The native Palestinians seemed less hostile, apparently. So all the Zionists wanted was a place they could colonize and rule, nothing religious about original Zionism. The founders of Zionism were not very religious and many like, Max Nordau were militant atheists while many were agnostic socialists.

Nice try, so are you saying that Israel and Jerusalem has no historical, spiritual, or ancestral significance to the Jewish people? Because if you do, you need to get yourself checked out.

 

[montelatici]

To add to that, anti-Zionists could care less about the so called Palestinians. The reason they are so obsessed with this conflict has to do with their antisemitism, hence the title of this thread. Especially when you look at the number of Muslims (and Christians and other non Muslims) that are being killed at the hands of other Muslims it becomes even more obvious what the motivation is.

The whole exercise of separating anti-zionism from anti-Jewish is ridiculous when you apply it to ISRAELIS. When attacked, THEY are not gonna ponder whether they are being attacked because they are Jewish or because they are Israelis.

WE -- wouldn't make that distinction either if ISIS came across our borders and attacked Jewish targets or Christian targets. Oh my -- did they do it because we're Americans? Or did they do it because we're Christians?


Zionism WAS an effort in nationalism. Today -- it's an EXCUSE to hate on Israelis or just any ole Jew..

So tell me.. If you are an Israeli Jew --- how could you love your country, but HATE Zionism --- if not for obscure Biblical justifications? (which a handful of Orthodox proclaim)

Or if you're an American (or Aussie) --- You can't be vehemently anti-Zionist and support Israels' Right to Exist. So on WHAT PLANET is being anti-Zionist NOT anti-Jewish if you deeply desire to see a forced Exodus of Jews from Israel?

OR -- if you are one of the regulars here that sling that Z-Word repeatedly -- don't be advertising how many Jew friends you have.. There's a difference between protesting and objecting to the POLICIES of the State of Israel and using the Z-word....

Zionism, just as Manifest Destiny, justified the dispossession of the native people. One can criticize Manifest Destiny (and what it did to the native americans) and not be anti-American.

Not to sound confrontational -- But so what are you gonna do about it?

I mean -- now when Zionism AND Manifest Destiny are both Historical curiosities..

If your plan involves lots of moving vans and armed guards -- that might answer the OP question..

When Zionism becomes an historical curiosity, it will probably be looked upon are Manifest Destiny or the American Colonization Society (Liberia) Charter is looked upon today. Your buddies are the ones that see "flattening" Gaza and ethnically cleansing the West Bank as solutions. I have always said, the only solution now is the establishment of a democratic and secular state for all the people of Palestine. And, that's what I believe will happen eventually.

No actually the more feasible solution is to negotiate an Egyptian takeover of Gaza (they're mostly Egyptian anyhow), and for Israel to annex the West Bank and call it by it's name for the last two thousand years, Judea and Samaria. A portion of the West Bank will be given back to be governed by the Jordanians, and the rest of the so called Palestinians will eventually migrate back into Jordan, where they came from. Either way, in two to three generations, the population of Israelis will overtake the Arab Muslims, so the annexation of the West Bank by Israel and handover of the remaining portion to Jordan will be more of a formality.

And considering that this ship has already sailed and in process, that is what is terrifying the so called Palestinians and their terrorist leadership the most.

Well, if that scenario makes you happy, good for you. But, deep down you know you are being silly. The non-Jews already outnumber the Jews in the territory the Israeli Jews now control, and the non-Jew population is increasing at a greater rate than the Jewish population. A secular democratic state where all people are enfranchised is the best solution.

 

[Juicin]

There are SOME valid Jewish ties to the West Bank. Like the monument in Hebron where some think Abraham is buried. In this case --- "land swaps" could be arranged. But having 500 settlers in Hebron --- does NOT make Hebron "an Israeli city".. Israel completely swept out Jewish settlers by force to release Gaza. There will have to be some of that again. But after 60 years -- it's getting increasingly difficult to FORCE an Apartheid like deal.

When do you think the Palis are gonna be ready to form a government? If it's another 50 years -- there are NO guarantees to land claims..

To add to that, anti-Zionists could care less about the so called Palestinians. The reason they are so obsessed with this conflict has to do with their antisemitism, hence the title of this thread. Especially when you look at the number of Muslims (and Christians and other non Muslims) that are being killed at the hands of other Muslims it becomes even more obvious what the motivation is.

Bullshit. The anti-semitism canard is used to attempt to stifle any criticism of Israel's policies. There is plenty of criticism of Muslim behavior in the appropriate sections of this site.

Not to me. You are COMPLETELY free to criticize ANY policies of Israel.. Not anti-Jewish at all.. I EVEN do it regularly and I'm not anti-Jewish. ISRAELIs criticize Israeli policy constantly. So you're in GOOD company.

But if you invoke the Z-Word --- you need to justify the RELEVANCE of being a Zionist today. It is no longer really a Political entity anymore. But IT IS a Religious concept related to Jews LIVING in Israel.

Thus --- being Anti-Zionist NOW means you oppose Jews living a Biblical prophesy in Israel. It's that simple.

Zionism was a political nationalist movement. Nothing religious about it. It may have been hijacked by religious nutters, but that's not what Herzl intended. When Joseph Chamberlain offered a large part of Uganda as a land for the Zionists, the Zionists decided against it after a survey because it was inhabited by large numbers of hostile Maasai. The native Palestinians seemed less hostile, apparently. So all the Zionists wanted was a place they could colonize and rule, nothing religious about original Zionism. The founders of Zionism were not very religious and many like, Max Nordau were militant atheists while many were agnostic socialists.

Nice try, so are you saying that Israel and Jerusalem has no historical, spiritual, or ancestral significance to the Jewish people? Because if you do, you need to get yourself checked out.

Except he's right and you're pathetic

A new poll finds that liberal Democrats are turning away from Israel

Who are the "jewish people"?. People descended from Palestinian Jews or cultists with mud blood? There isn't an Ashkenazi on the planet who can prove that, all converts and mud bloods.

New polling by pew, soon Israel will be a partisan issue. And liberals are going to win more than not in the coming generations presidential elections.

And if Republicans start taking a nationalist approach support for Israel might disintegrate over night. Hahaha

 

[Roudy]

There are SOME valid Jewish ties to the West Bank. Like the monument in Hebron where some think Abraham is buried. In this case --- "land swaps" could be arranged. But having 500 settlers in Hebron --- does NOT make Hebron "an Israeli city".. Israel completely swept out Jewish settlers by force to release Gaza. There will have to be some of that again. But after 60 years -- it's getting increasingly difficult to FORCE an Apartheid like deal.

When do you think the Palis are gonna be ready to form a government? If it's another 50 years -- there are NO guarantees to land claims..

To add to that, anti-Zionists could care less about the so called Palestinians. The reason they are so obsessed with this conflict has to do with their antisemitism, hence the title of this thread. Especially when you look at the number of Muslims (and Christians and other non Muslims) that are being killed at the hands of other Muslims it becomes even more obvious what the motivation is.

The whole exercise of separating anti-zionism from anti-Jewish is ridiculous when you apply it to ISRAELIS. When attacked, THEY are not gonna ponder whether they are being attacked because they are Jewish or because they are Israelis.

WE -- wouldn't make that distinction either if ISIS came across our borders and attacked Jewish targets or Christian targets. Oh my -- did they do it because we're Americans? Or did they do it because we're Christians?


Zionism WAS an effort in nationalism. Today -- it's an EXCUSE to hate on Israelis or just any ole Jew..

So tell me.. If you are an Israeli Jew --- how could you love your country, but HATE Zionism --- if not for obscure Biblical justifications? (which a handful of Orthodox proclaim)

Or if you're an American (or Aussie) --- You can't be vehemently anti-Zionist and support Israels' Right to Exist. So on WHAT PLANET is being anti-Zionist NOT anti-Jewish if you deeply desire to see a forced Exodus of Jews from Israel?

OR -- if you are one of the regulars here that sling that Z-Word repeatedly -- don't be advertising how many Jew friends you have.. There's a difference between protesting and objecting to the POLICIES of the State of Israel and using the Z-word....

Zionism, just as Manifest Destiny, justified the dispossession of the native people. One can criticize Manifest Destiny (and what it did to the native americans) and not be anti-American.

Since when did Arab Muslim invaders become "natives" of the land they invaded? The natives were the Jews, who got invaded and attacked over and over, yet maintained a presence and kept coming back.

The natives never invaded. They are the people that always lived on the land. The native people that practiced earlier religions began practicing the religion of the various rulers. Why can't you understand that basic fact? The European Jews were Europeans.

Ha ha ha! Which history book are you reading? Israel was invaded AND COLONIZED by the Romans, Crusaders, Arab Muslims, Ottomans, etc. The European AND Middle Eastern Jews that kept coming back, were coming back to a land that had been their religious, spiritual, and ancestral holy land for 3000 years. Jews were finally able to re-establish a state on their holy land, which is what Zionism is. The antisemites who call themselves "antizionists" want the Jewish holy land to be ruled by Islamic nutjobs, who are not the "natives" and never have been.

 

[Juicin]

To add to that, anti-Zionists could care less about the so called Palestinians. The reason they are so obsessed with this conflict has to do with their antisemitism, hence the title of this thread. Especially when you look at the number of Muslims (and Christians and other non Muslims) that are being killed at the hands of other Muslims it becomes even more obvious what the motivation is.

The whole exercise of separating anti-zionism from anti-Jewish is ridiculous when you apply it to ISRAELIS. When attacked, THEY are not gonna ponder whether they are being attacked because they are Jewish or because they are Israelis.

WE -- wouldn't make that distinction either if ISIS came across our borders and attacked Jewish targets or Christian targets. Oh my -- did they do it because we're Americans? Or did they do it because we're Christians?


Zionism WAS an effort in nationalism. Today -- it's an EXCUSE to hate on Israelis or just any ole Jew..

So tell me.. If you are an Israeli Jew --- how could you love your country, but HATE Zionism --- if not for obscure Biblical justifications? (which a handful of Orthodox proclaim)

Or if you're an American (or Aussie) --- You can't be vehemently anti-Zionist and support Israels' Right to Exist. So on WHAT PLANET is being anti-Zionist NOT anti-Jewish if you deeply desire to see a forced Exodus of Jews from Israel?

OR -- if you are one of the regulars here that sling that Z-Word repeatedly -- don't be advertising how many Jew friends you have.. There's a difference between protesting and objecting to the POLICIES of the State of Israel and using the Z-word....

Zionism, just as Manifest Destiny, justified the dispossession of the native people. One can criticize Manifest Destiny (and what it did to the native americans) and not be anti-American.

Since when did Arab Muslim invaders become "natives" of the land they invaded? The natives were the Jews, who got invaded and attacked over and over, yet maintained a presence and kept coming back.

The natives never invaded. They are the people that always lived on the land. The native people that practiced earlier religions began practicing the religion of the various rulers. Why can't you understand that basic fact? The European Jews were Europeans.

Ha ha ha! Which history book are you reading? Israel was invaded AND COLONIZED by the Romans, Crusaders, Arab Muslims, Ottomans, etc. The European AND Middle Eastern Jews that kept coming back, were coming back to a land that had been their religious, spiritual, and ancestral holy land for 3000 years. Jews were finally able to re-establish a state on their holy land, which is what Zionism is. The antisemites who call themselves "antizionists" want the Jewish holy land to be ruled by Islamic nutjobs, who are not the "natives" and never have been.

"jewish holy land"

Ashkenazi are not the descendant of Jews by any standard king david would accept. You're a bunch of cultists, your religion does not give you claim to land. Your blood does

 

[flacaltenn]

They shouldn't lose any land in the WB - those that own the land should be able to keep it. Yes? No?

There are SOME valid Jewish ties to the West Bank. Like the monument in Hebron where some think Abraham is buried. In this case --- "land swaps" could be arranged. But having 500 settlers in Hebron --- does NOT make Hebron "an Israeli city".. Israel completely swept out Jewish settlers by force to release Gaza. There will have to be some of that again. But after 60 years -- it's getting increasingly difficult to FORCE an Apartheid like deal.

When do you think the Palis are gonna be ready to form a government? If it's another 50 years -- there are NO guarantees to land claims..

To add to that, anti-Zionists could care less about the so called Palestinians. The reason they are so obsessed with this conflict has to do with their antisemitism, hence the title of this thread. Especially when you look at the number of Muslims (and Christians and other non Muslims) that are being killed at the hands of other Muslims it becomes even more obvious what the motivation is.

Bullshit. The anti-semitism canard is used to attempt to stifle any criticism of Israel's policies. There is plenty of criticism of Muslim behavior in the appropriate sections of this site.

Not to me. You are COMPLETELY free to criticize ANY policies of Israel.. Not anti-Jewish at all.. I EVEN do it regularly and I'm not anti-Jewish. ISRAELIs criticize Israeli policy constantly. So you're in GOOD company.

But if you invoke the Z-Word --- you need to justify the RELEVANCE of being a Zionist today. It is no longer really a Political entity anymore. But IT IS a Religious concept related to Jews LIVING in Israel.

Thus --- being Anti-Zionist NOW means you oppose Jews living a Biblical prophesy in Israel. It's that simple.

Zionism was a political nationalist movement. Nothing religious about it. It may have been hijacked by religious nutters, but that's not what Herzl intended. When Joseph Chamberlain offered a large part of Uganda as a land for the Zionists, the Zionists decided against it after a survey because it was inhabited by large numbers of hostile Maasai. The native Palestinians seemed less hostile, apparently. So all the Zionists wanted was a place they could colonize and rule, nothing religious about original Zionism. The founders of Zionism were not very religious and many like, Max Nordau were militant atheists while many were agnostic socialists.

The fact that only "religious nutters" hijacked the Nationalist Movement must be why when I was a kid PRACTICING Judaism -- we always ended the Passover Service with the cheer "Next year in Jerusalem". Heck I imagine that tradition goes back a ways --- don't you???