'Anti-Zionism Is Anti-Semitic'?

[Roudy]

The whole exercise of separating anti-zionism from anti-Jewish is ridiculous when you apply it to ISRAELIS. When attacked, THEY are not gonna ponder whether they are being attacked because they are Jewish or because they are Israelis.

WE -- wouldn't make that distinction either if ISIS came across our borders and attacked Jewish targets or Christian targets. Oh my -- did they do it because we're Americans? Or did they do it because we're Christians?


Zionism WAS an effort in nationalism. Today -- it's an EXCUSE to hate on Israelis or just any ole Jew..

So tell me.. If you are an Israeli Jew --- how could you love your country, but HATE Zionism --- if not for obscure Biblical justifications? (which a handful of Orthodox proclaim)

Or if you're an American (or Aussie) --- You can't be vehemently anti-Zionist and support Israels' Right to Exist. So on WHAT PLANET is being anti-Zionist NOT anti-Jewish if you deeply desire to see a forced Exodus of Jews from Israel?

OR -- if you are one of the regulars here that sling that Z-Word repeatedly -- don't be advertising how many Jew friends you have.. There's a difference between protesting and objecting to the POLICIES of the State of Israel and using the Z-word....

Zionism, just as Manifest Destiny, justified the dispossession of the native people. One can criticize Manifest Destiny (and what it did to the native americans) and not be anti-American.

Not to sound confrontational -- But so what are you gonna do about it?

I mean -- now when Zionism AND Manifest Destiny are both Historical curiosities..

If your plan involves lots of moving vans and armed guards -- that might answer the OP question..

When Zionism becomes an historical curiosity, it will probably be looked upon are Manifest Destiny or the American Colonization Society (Liberia) Charter is looked upon today. Your buddies are the ones that see "flattening" Gaza and ethnically cleansing the West Bank as solutions. I have always said, the only solution now is the establishment of a democratic and secular state for all the people of Palestine. And, that's what I believe will happen eventually.

No actually the more feasible solution is to negotiate an Egyptian takeover of Gaza (they're mostly Egyptian anyhow), and for Israel to annex the West Bank and call it by it's name for the last two thousand years, Judea and Samaria. A portion of the West Bank will be given back to be governed by the Jordanians, and the rest of the so called Palestinians will eventually migrate back into Jordan, where they came from. Either way, in two to three generations, the population of Israelis will overtake the Arab Muslims, so the annexation of the West Bank by Israel and handover of the remaining portion to Jordan will be more of a formality.

And considering that this ship has already sailed and in process, that is what is terrifying the so called Palestinians and their terrorist leadership the most.

Well, if that scenario makes you happy, good for you. But, deep down you know you are being silly. The non-Jews already outnumber the Jews in the territory the Israeli Jews now control, and the non-Jew population is increasing at a greater rate than the Jewish population. A secular democratic state where all people are enfranchised is the best solution.

That scenario is already happening. An anti Hamas anti Muslim Brotherhood govt. in Egypt in controlling the Southern border of Gaza, and the Jews are repopulating and reproducing in their ancient homeland in the West Bank three times as fast as the rest of Israel. Like I said, that ship and already sailed.

 

[Juicin]

There are SOME valid Jewish ties to the West Bank. Like the monument in Hebron where some think Abraham is buried. In this case --- "land swaps" could be arranged. But having 500 settlers in Hebron --- does NOT make Hebron "an Israeli city".. Israel completely swept out Jewish settlers by force to release Gaza. There will have to be some of that again. But after 60 years -- it's getting increasingly difficult to FORCE an Apartheid like deal.

When do you think the Palis are gonna be ready to form a government? If it's another 50 years -- there are NO guarantees to land claims..

To add to that, anti-Zionists could care less about the so called Palestinians. The reason they are so obsessed with this conflict has to do with their antisemitism, hence the title of this thread. Especially when you look at the number of Muslims (and Christians and other non Muslims) that are being killed at the hands of other Muslims it becomes even more obvious what the motivation is.

Bullshit. The anti-semitism canard is used to attempt to stifle any criticism of Israel's policies. There is plenty of criticism of Muslim behavior in the appropriate sections of this site.

Not to me. You are COMPLETELY free to criticize ANY policies of Israel.. Not anti-Jewish at all.. I EVEN do it regularly and I'm not anti-Jewish. ISRAELIs criticize Israeli policy constantly. So you're in GOOD company.

But if you invoke the Z-Word --- you need to justify the RELEVANCE of being a Zionist today. It is no longer really a Political entity anymore. But IT IS a Religious concept related to Jews LIVING in Israel.

Thus --- being Anti-Zionist NOW means you oppose Jews living a Biblical prophesy in Israel. It's that simple.

Zionism was a political nationalist movement. Nothing religious about it. It may have been hijacked by religious nutters, but that's not what Herzl intended. When Joseph Chamberlain offered a large part of Uganda as a land for the Zionists, the Zionists decided against it after a survey because it was inhabited by large numbers of hostile Maasai. The native Palestinians seemed less hostile, apparently. So all the Zionists wanted was a place they could colonize and rule, nothing religious about original Zionism. The founders of Zionism were not very religious and many like, Max Nordau were militant atheists while many were agnostic socialists.

The fact that only "religious nutters" hijacked the Nationalist Movement must be why when I was a kid PRACTICING Judaism -- we always ended the Passover Service with the cheer "Next year in Jerusalem". Heck I imagine that tradition goes back a ways --- don't you???

Wow yea let's use scripture and mythology as historical fact.

The only thing that could give you claim to Palestinian land is having Palestinian blood. Which not a single Ashkenazi has

 

[Roudy]

The whole exercise of separating anti-zionism from anti-Jewish is ridiculous when you apply it to ISRAELIS. When attacked, THEY are not gonna ponder whether they are being attacked because they are Jewish or because they are Israelis.

WE -- wouldn't make that distinction either if ISIS came across our borders and attacked Jewish targets or Christian targets. Oh my -- did they do it because we're Americans? Or did they do it because we're Christians?


Zionism WAS an effort in nationalism. Today -- it's an EXCUSE to hate on Israelis or just any ole Jew..

So tell me.. If you are an Israeli Jew --- how could you love your country, but HATE Zionism --- if not for obscure Biblical justifications? (which a handful of Orthodox proclaim)

Or if you're an American (or Aussie) --- You can't be vehemently anti-Zionist and support Israels' Right to Exist. So on WHAT PLANET is being anti-Zionist NOT anti-Jewish if you deeply desire to see a forced Exodus of Jews from Israel?

OR -- if you are one of the regulars here that sling that Z-Word repeatedly -- don't be advertising how many Jew friends you have.. There's a difference between protesting and objecting to the POLICIES of the State of Israel and using the Z-word....

Zionism, just as Manifest Destiny, justified the dispossession of the native people. One can criticize Manifest Destiny (and what it did to the native americans) and not be anti-American.

Since when did Arab Muslim invaders become "natives" of the land they invaded? The natives were the Jews, who got invaded and attacked over and over, yet maintained a presence and kept coming back.

The natives never invaded. They are the people that always lived on the land. The native people that practiced earlier religions began practicing the religion of the various rulers. Why can't you understand that basic fact? The European Jews were Europeans.

Ha ha ha! Which history book are you reading? Israel was invaded AND COLONIZED by the Romans, Crusaders, Arab Muslims, Ottomans, etc. The European AND Middle Eastern Jews that kept coming back, were coming back to a land that had been their religious, spiritual, and ancestral holy land for 3000 years. Jews were finally able to re-establish a state on their holy land, which is what Zionism is. The antisemites who call themselves "antizionists" want the Jewish holy land to be ruled by Islamic nutjobs, who are not the "natives" and never have been.

"jewish holy land"

Ashkenazi are not the descendant of Jews by any standard king david would accept. You're a bunch of cultists, your religion does not give you claim to land. Your blood does

Ha ha ha! Israel is the Jewish holy land, and there is no evidence whatsoever that European Jews or Middle Eastern Jews or any other Jews are "converts" from other races or religions.

 

[montelatici]

There were only a handful of Jews in Palestine prior to 1850, and they were Arab Jews. They were culturally Arabs. The European and other Jews from outside of Palestine that invaded, were simply invaders intending to dispossess the native people, many of whose ancestors practiced Judaism.

 

[Juicin]

Zionism, just as Manifest Destiny, justified the dispossession of the native people. One can criticize Manifest Destiny (and what it did to the native americans) and not be anti-American.

Since when did Arab Muslim invaders become "natives" of the land they invaded? The natives were the Jews, who got invaded and attacked over and over, yet maintained a presence and kept coming back.

The natives never invaded. They are the people that always lived on the land. The native people that practiced earlier religions began practicing the religion of the various rulers. Why can't you understand that basic fact? The European Jews were Europeans.

Ha ha ha! Which history book are you reading? Israel was invaded AND COLONIZED by the Romans, Crusaders, Arab Muslims, Ottomans, etc. The European AND Middle Eastern Jews that kept coming back, were coming back to a land that had been their religious, spiritual, and ancestral holy land for 3000 years. Jews were finally able to re-establish a state on their holy land, which is what Zionism is. The antisemites who call themselves "antizionists" want the Jewish holy land to be ruled by Islamic nutjobs, who are not the "natives" and never have been.

"jewish holy land"

Ashkenazi are not the descendant of Jews by any standard king david would accept. You're a bunch of cultists, your religion does not give you claim to land. Your blood does

Ha ha ha! Israel is the Jewish holy land, and there is no evidence whatsoever that European Jews or Middle Eastern Jews or any other Jews are "converts" from other races or religions.

You don't need to prove they're converts. It's just a religion

You need to prove your blood claim to Palestine.

No one gives a shit if it's holy land or not. That's not relevant to anyone but cultists like you. You'd need Palestinian blood to have a claim to Palestine, pink Jews do not have that

edit - just because white jesus hangs in anglo christian churches shouldn't confuse you, Jesus didn't look like that. He looked like an Arab, specifically a Palestinian

 

[montelatici]

Zionism, just as Manifest Destiny, justified the dispossession of the native people. One can criticize Manifest Destiny (and what it did to the native americans) and not be anti-American.

Since when did Arab Muslim invaders become "natives" of the land they invaded? The natives were the Jews, who got invaded and attacked over and over, yet maintained a presence and kept coming back.

The natives never invaded. They are the people that always lived on the land. The native people that practiced earlier religions began practicing the religion of the various rulers. Why can't you understand that basic fact? The European Jews were Europeans.

Ha ha ha! Which history book are you reading? Israel was invaded AND COLONIZED by the Romans, Crusaders, Arab Muslims, Ottomans, etc. The European AND Middle Eastern Jews that kept coming back, were coming back to a land that had been their religious, spiritual, and ancestral holy land for 3000 years. Jews were finally able to re-establish a state on their holy land, which is what Zionism is. The antisemites who call themselves "antizionists" want the Jewish holy land to be ruled by Islamic nutjobs, who are not the "natives" and never have been.

"jewish holy land"

Ashkenazi are not the descendant of Jews by any standard king david would accept. You're a bunch of cultists, your religion does not give you claim to land. Your blood does

Ha ha ha! Israel is the Jewish holy land, and there is no evidence whatsoever that European Jews or Middle Eastern Jews or any other Jews are "converts" from other races or religions.

Of course they are European converts to Judaism.

"Most Ashkenazi Jews are descendants of European women who converted to Judaism"

read more: Study traces Ashkenazi roots to European women who probably converted to Judaism - Jewish World News

 

[montelatici]

Zionism, just as Manifest Destiny, justified the dispossession of the native people. One can criticize Manifest Destiny (and what it did to the native americans) and not be anti-American.

Not to sound confrontational -- But so what are you gonna do about it?

I mean -- now when Zionism AND Manifest Destiny are both Historical curiosities..

If your plan involves lots of moving vans and armed guards -- that might answer the OP question..

When Zionism becomes an historical curiosity, it will probably be looked upon are Manifest Destiny or the American Colonization Society (Liberia) Charter is looked upon today. Your buddies are the ones that see "flattening" Gaza and ethnically cleansing the West Bank as solutions. I have always said, the only solution now is the establishment of a democratic and secular state for all the people of Palestine. And, that's what I believe will happen eventually.

No actually the more feasible solution is to negotiate an Egyptian takeover of Gaza (they're mostly Egyptian anyhow), and for Israel to annex the West Bank and call it by it's name for the last two thousand years, Judea and Samaria. A portion of the West Bank will be given back to be governed by the Jordanians, and the rest of the so called Palestinians will eventually migrate back into Jordan, where they came from. Either way, in two to three generations, the population of Israelis will overtake the Arab Muslims, so the annexation of the West Bank by Israel and handover of the remaining portion to Jordan will be more of a formality.

And considering that this ship has already sailed and in process, that is what is terrifying the so called Palestinians and their terrorist leadership the most.

Well, if that scenario makes you happy, good for you. But, deep down you know you are being silly. The non-Jews already outnumber the Jews in the territory the Israeli Jews now control, and the non-Jew population is increasing at a greater rate than the Jewish population. A secular democratic state where all people are enfranchised is the best solution.

That scenario is already happening. An anti Hamas anti Muslim Brotherhood govt. in Egypt in controlling the Southern border of Gaza, and the Jews are repopulating and reproducing in their ancient homeland in the West Bank three times as fast as the rest of Israel. Like I said, that ship and already sailed.

But, the non-Jewish population is increasing far faster than the Jewish population, so good luck at ruling over a majority of non-Jews for the long term.

 

[Roudy]

There are SOME valid Jewish ties to the West Bank. Like the monument in Hebron where some think Abraham is buried. In this case --- "land swaps" could be arranged. But having 500 settlers in Hebron --- does NOT make Hebron "an Israeli city".. Israel completely swept out Jewish settlers by force to release Gaza. There will have to be some of that again. But after 60 years -- it's getting increasingly difficult to FORCE an Apartheid like deal.

When do you think the Palis are gonna be ready to form a government? If it's another 50 years -- there are NO guarantees to land claims..

To add to that, anti-Zionists could care less about the so called Palestinians. The reason they are so obsessed with this conflict has to do with their antisemitism, hence the title of this thread. Especially when you look at the number of Muslims (and Christians and other non Muslims) that are being killed at the hands of other Muslims it becomes even more obvious what the motivation is.

Bullshit. The anti-semitism canard is used to attempt to stifle any criticism of Israel's policies. There is plenty of criticism of Muslim behavior in the appropriate sections of this site.

Not to me. You are COMPLETELY free to criticize ANY policies of Israel.. Not anti-Jewish at all.. I EVEN do it regularly and I'm not anti-Jewish. ISRAELIs criticize Israeli policy constantly. So you're in GOOD company.

But if you invoke the Z-Word --- you need to justify the RELEVANCE of being a Zionist today. It is no longer really a Political entity anymore. But IT IS a Religious concept related to Jews LIVING in Israel.

Thus --- being Anti-Zionist NOW means you oppose Jews living a Biblical prophesy in Israel. It's that simple.

Zionism was a political nationalist movement. Nothing religious about it. It may have been hijacked by religious nutters, but that's not what Herzl intended. When Joseph Chamberlain offered a large part of Uganda as a land for the Zionists, the Zionists decided against it after a survey because it was inhabited by large numbers of hostile Maasai. The native Palestinians seemed less hostile, apparently. So all the Zionists wanted was a place they could colonize and rule, nothing religious about original Zionism. The founders of Zionism were not very religious and many like, Max Nordau were militant atheists while many were agnostic socialists.

The fact that only "religious nutters" hijacked the Nationalist Movement must be why when I was a kid PRACTICING Judaism -- we always ended the Passover Service with the cheer "Next year in Jerusalem". Heck I imagine that tradition goes back a ways --- don't you???

Also, the fact that Jews pray and are buried towards Jerusalem, and during a marriage ceremony the bride and groom promise to "never forget Jerusalem", etc. all of these traditions have nothing to do with the religious significance and it's influence on Zionism. No, the Jews coulda made their state in "Africa" and it woulda meant the same to them. Yeah, the natives are the Arab Muslim invaders who bow towards MECCA. Ha ha ha.

 

[flacaltenn]

To add to that, anti-Zionists could care less about the so called Palestinians. The reason they are so obsessed with this conflict has to do with their antisemitism, hence the title of this thread. Especially when you look at the number of Muslims (and Christians and other non Muslims) that are being killed at the hands of other Muslims it becomes even more obvious what the motivation is.

Bullshit. The anti-semitism canard is used to attempt to stifle any criticism of Israel's policies. There is plenty of criticism of Muslim behavior in the appropriate sections of this site.

Not to me. You are COMPLETELY free to criticize ANY policies of Israel.. Not anti-Jewish at all.. I EVEN do it regularly and I'm not anti-Jewish. ISRAELIs criticize Israeli policy constantly. So you're in GOOD company.

But if you invoke the Z-Word --- you need to justify the RELEVANCE of being a Zionist today. It is no longer really a Political entity anymore. But IT IS a Religious concept related to Jews LIVING in Israel.

Thus --- being Anti-Zionist NOW means you oppose Jews living a Biblical prophesy in Israel. It's that simple.

Zionism was a political nationalist movement. Nothing religious about it. It may have been hijacked by religious nutters, but that's not what Herzl intended. When Joseph Chamberlain offered a large part of Uganda as a land for the Zionists, the Zionists decided against it after a survey because it was inhabited by large numbers of hostile Maasai. The native Palestinians seemed less hostile, apparently. So all the Zionists wanted was a place they could colonize and rule, nothing religious about original Zionism. The founders of Zionism were not very religious and many like, Max Nordau were militant atheists while many were agnostic socialists.

The fact that only "religious nutters" hijacked the Nationalist Movement must be why when I was a kid PRACTICING Judaism -- we always ended the Passover Service with the cheer "Next year in Jerusalem". Heck I imagine that tradition goes back a ways --- don't you???

Wow yea let's use scripture and mythology as historical fact.

The only thing that could give you claim to Palestinian land is having Palestinian blood. Which not a single Ashkenazi has

That's not really the topic of this thread. There are plenty of other threads that examine the HISTORICAL claims to the land. This is about using the Z-word. And what the connotations of Zionist means today AFTER Israel has existed as an independent state for about 70 years.

Nationalist movements are EXACTLY what those Palis (whom Dems SAY they care about) NEED right now. Instead of tossing their kids against soldiers in the streets or firing missiles from Gaza into Israel.. THEY need leadership and a Zionist like movement.. So maybe they stop killing each other over control of the movement or the land.

 

[Juicin]

Bullshit. The anti-semitism canard is used to attempt to stifle any criticism of Israel's policies. There is plenty of criticism of Muslim behavior in the appropriate sections of this site.

Not to me. You are COMPLETELY free to criticize ANY policies of Israel.. Not anti-Jewish at all.. I EVEN do it regularly and I'm not anti-Jewish. ISRAELIs criticize Israeli policy constantly. So you're in GOOD company.

But if you invoke the Z-Word --- you need to justify the RELEVANCE of being a Zionist today. It is no longer really a Political entity anymore. But IT IS a Religious concept related to Jews LIVING in Israel.

Thus --- being Anti-Zionist NOW means you oppose Jews living a Biblical prophesy in Israel. It's that simple.

Zionism was a political nationalist movement. Nothing religious about it. It may have been hijacked by religious nutters, but that's not what Herzl intended. When Joseph Chamberlain offered a large part of Uganda as a land for the Zionists, the Zionists decided against it after a survey because it was inhabited by large numbers of hostile Maasai. The native Palestinians seemed less hostile, apparently. So all the Zionists wanted was a place they could colonize and rule, nothing religious about original Zionism. The founders of Zionism were not very religious and many like, Max Nordau were militant atheists while many were agnostic socialists.

The fact that only "religious nutters" hijacked the Nationalist Movement must be why when I was a kid PRACTICING Judaism -- we always ended the Passover Service with the cheer "Next year in Jerusalem". Heck I imagine that tradition goes back a ways --- don't you???

Wow yea let's use scripture and mythology as historical fact.

The only thing that could give you claim to Palestinian land is having Palestinian blood. Which not a single Ashkenazi has

That's not really the topic of this thread. There are plenty of other threads that examine the HISTORICAL claims to the land. This is about using the Z-word. And what the connotations of Zionist means today AFTER Israel has existed as an independent state for about 70 years.

Nationalist movements are EXACTLY what those Palis (whom Dems SAY they care about) NEED right now. Instead of tossing their kids against soldiers in the streets or firing missiles from Gaza into Israel.. THEY need leadership and a Zionist like movement.. So maybe they stop killing each other over control of the movement or the land.

It is the topic of this thread.

If Ashkenazi Isrealis are European colonists then that frames the debate.

If they were some how indigenous to Palestine that would frame the debate.

Is being anti zionist anti Jewish? or anti colonialist and anti racist? Context mattes, I mean I could frame it more directly. But you know what I mean

Edit - if they were indigenous they'd be no different than the Alawites who rule Syria...They're not though

 

[Roudy]

Since when did Arab Muslim invaders become "natives" of the land they invaded? The natives were the Jews, who got invaded and attacked over and over, yet maintained a presence and kept coming back.

The natives never invaded. They are the people that always lived on the land. The native people that practiced earlier religions began practicing the religion of the various rulers. Why can't you understand that basic fact? The European Jews were Europeans.

Ha ha ha! Which history book are you reading? Israel was invaded AND COLONIZED by the Romans, Crusaders, Arab Muslims, Ottomans, etc. The European AND Middle Eastern Jews that kept coming back, were coming back to a land that had been their religious, spiritual, and ancestral holy land for 3000 years. Jews were finally able to re-establish a state on their holy land, which is what Zionism is. The antisemites who call themselves "antizionists" want the Jewish holy land to be ruled by Islamic nutjobs, who are not the "natives" and never have been.

"jewish holy land"

Ashkenazi are not the descendant of Jews by any standard king david would accept. You're a bunch of cultists, your religion does not give you claim to land. Your blood does

Ha ha ha! Israel is the Jewish holy land, and there is no evidence whatsoever that European Jews or Middle Eastern Jews or any other Jews are "converts" from other races or religions.

Of course they are European converts to Judaism.

"Most Ashkenazi Jews are descendants of European women who converted to Judaism"

read more: Study traces Ashkenazi roots to European women who probably converted to Judaism - Jewish World News

Here we go with the bullshit genetic studies trying to discredit Jewish ancestry.

DNA links prove Jews are a 'race,' says genetics expert - Jewish World News

About 80% of Jewish males and 50% of Jewish females trace their ancestry back to the Middle East. The rest entered the “Jewish gene pool” through conversion or intermarriage. Those who did intermarry often left the faith in a generation or two, in effect pruning the Jewish genetic tree. But many converts became interwoven into the Jewish genealogical line. Reflect on the iconic convert, the biblical Ruth, who married Boaz and became the great-grandmother of King David. She began as an outsider, but you don’t get much more Jewish than the bloodline of King David!
read more: DNA links prove Jews are a 'race,' says genetics expert - Jewish World News

CASE CLOSED!

 

[Juicin]

The natives never invaded. They are the people that always lived on the land. The native people that practiced earlier religions began practicing the religion of the various rulers. Why can't you understand that basic fact? The European Jews were Europeans.

Ha ha ha! Which history book are you reading? Israel was invaded AND COLONIZED by the Romans, Crusaders, Arab Muslims, Ottomans, etc. The European AND Middle Eastern Jews that kept coming back, were coming back to a land that had been their religious, spiritual, and ancestral holy land for 3000 years. Jews were finally able to re-establish a state on their holy land, which is what Zionism is. The antisemites who call themselves "antizionists" want the Jewish holy land to be ruled by Islamic nutjobs, who are not the "natives" and never have been.

"jewish holy land"

Ashkenazi are not the descendant of Jews by any standard king david would accept. You're a bunch of cultists, your religion does not give you claim to land. Your blood does

Ha ha ha! Israel is the Jewish holy land, and there is no evidence whatsoever that European Jews or Middle Eastern Jews or any other Jews are "converts" from other races or religions.

Of course they are European converts to Judaism.

"Most Ashkenazi Jews are descendants of European women who converted to Judaism"

read more: Study traces Ashkenazi roots to European women who probably converted to Judaism - Jewish World News

Here we go with the bullshit genetic studies trying to discredit Jewish ancestry.

DNA links prove Jews are a 'race,' says genetics expert - Jewish World News

About 80% of Jewish males and 50% of Jewish females trace their ancestry back to the Middle East. The rest entered the “Jewish gene pool” through conversion or intermarriage. Those who did intermarry often left the faith in a generation or two, in effect pruning the Jewish genetic tree. But many converts became interwoven into the Jewish genealogical line. Reflect on the iconic convert, the biblical Ruth, who married Boaz and became the great-grandmother of King David. She began as an outsider, but you don’t get much more Jewish than the bloodline of King David!
read more: DNA links prove Jews are a 'race,' says genetics expert - Jewish World News

CASE CLOSED!

That proves they're not quite European

Not they're Palestinian, lol

Endogamy will separate you even if you're not a different race to begin with. It does in India

 

[Roudy]

Arab Muslims who bow to Mecca aren't the natives of Israel.
They're invaders.
Always have been.

 

[Juicin]

Arab Muslims who bow to Mecca aren't the natives of Israel.
They're invaders.
Always have been.

Again you're a European cultist. Your beliefs do not change the blood in your veins. It does not give you claim to land your ancestors have never seen.

Same with Muslims. Being a Muslim doesn't give you a blood claim on Mecca

Why is this so hard for you to understand? You're obviously white, your ancestors home was Europe. Not the middle east

 

[flacaltenn]

Not to me. You are COMPLETELY free to criticize ANY policies of Israel.. Not anti-Jewish at all.. I EVEN do it regularly and I'm not anti-Jewish. ISRAELIs criticize Israeli policy constantly. So you're in GOOD company.

But if you invoke the Z-Word --- you need to justify the RELEVANCE of being a Zionist today. It is no longer really a Political entity anymore. But IT IS a Religious concept related to Jews LIVING in Israel.

Thus --- being Anti-Zionist NOW means you oppose Jews living a Biblical prophesy in Israel. It's that simple.

Zionism was a political nationalist movement. Nothing religious about it. It may have been hijacked by religious nutters, but that's not what Herzl intended. When Joseph Chamberlain offered a large part of Uganda as a land for the Zionists, the Zionists decided against it after a survey because it was inhabited by large numbers of hostile Maasai. The native Palestinians seemed less hostile, apparently. So all the Zionists wanted was a place they could colonize and rule, nothing religious about original Zionism. The founders of Zionism were not very religious and many like, Max Nordau were militant atheists while many were agnostic socialists.

The fact that only "religious nutters" hijacked the Nationalist Movement must be why when I was a kid PRACTICING Judaism -- we always ended the Passover Service with the cheer "Next year in Jerusalem". Heck I imagine that tradition goes back a ways --- don't you???

Wow yea let's use scripture and mythology as historical fact.

The only thing that could give you claim to Palestinian land is having Palestinian blood. Which not a single Ashkenazi has

That's not really the topic of this thread. There are plenty of other threads that examine the HISTORICAL claims to the land. This is about using the Z-word. And what the connotations of Zionist means today AFTER Israel has existed as an independent state for about 70 years.

Nationalist movements are EXACTLY what those Palis (whom Dems SAY they care about) NEED right now. Instead of tossing their kids against soldiers in the streets or firing missiles from Gaza into Israel.. THEY need leadership and a Zionist like movement.. So maybe they stop killing each other over control of the movement or the land.

It is the topic of this thread.

If Ashkenazi Isrealis are European colonists then that frames the debate.

If they were some how indigenous to Palestine that would frame the debate.

Is being anti zionist anti Jewish? or anti colonialist and anti racist? Context mattes, I mean I could frame it more directly. But you know what I mean

Edit - if they were indigenous they'd be no different than the Alawites who rule Syria...They're not though

Ancestry is NOT the issue once you've been a recognized state for 70 years. And once you've become a State, that Zionist "movement" ceases to be political and resorts back to tradition and biblical belief.

 

[Juicin]

Zionism was a political nationalist movement. Nothing religious about it. It may have been hijacked by religious nutters, but that's not what Herzl intended. When Joseph Chamberlain offered a large part of Uganda as a land for the Zionists, the Zionists decided against it after a survey because it was inhabited by large numbers of hostile Maasai. The native Palestinians seemed less hostile, apparently. So all the Zionists wanted was a place they could colonize and rule, nothing religious about original Zionism. The founders of Zionism were not very religious and many like, Max Nordau were militant atheists while many were agnostic socialists.

The fact that only "religious nutters" hijacked the Nationalist Movement must be why when I was a kid PRACTICING Judaism -- we always ended the Passover Service with the cheer "Next year in Jerusalem". Heck I imagine that tradition goes back a ways --- don't you???

Wow yea let's use scripture and mythology as historical fact.

The only thing that could give you claim to Palestinian land is having Palestinian blood. Which not a single Ashkenazi has

That's not really the topic of this thread. There are plenty of other threads that examine the HISTORICAL claims to the land. This is about using the Z-word. And what the connotations of Zionist means today AFTER Israel has existed as an independent state for about 70 years.

Nationalist movements are EXACTLY what those Palis (whom Dems SAY they care about) NEED right now. Instead of tossing their kids against soldiers in the streets or firing missiles from Gaza into Israel.. THEY need leadership and a Zionist like movement.. So maybe they stop killing each other over control of the movement or the land.

It is the topic of this thread.

If Ashkenazi Isrealis are European colonists then that frames the debate.

If they were some how indigenous to Palestine that would frame the debate.

Is being anti zionist anti Jewish? or anti colonialist and anti racist? Context mattes, I mean I could frame it more directly. But you know what I mean

Edit - if they were indigenous they'd be no different than the Alawites who rule Syria...They're not though

Ancestry is NOT the issue once you've been a recognized state for 70 years. And once you've become a State, that Zionist "movement" ceases to be political and resorts back to tradition and biblical belief.

If you're trying to run an ethnocentric/theocratic state?

Yes it is

 

[flacaltenn]

The whole exercise of separating anti-zionism from anti-Jewish is ridiculous when you apply it to ISRAELIS. When attacked, THEY are not gonna ponder whether they are being attacked because they are Jewish or because they are Israelis.

WE -- wouldn't make that distinction either if ISIS came across our borders and attacked Jewish targets or Christian targets. Oh my -- did they do it because we're Americans? Or did they do it because we're Christians?


Zionism WAS an effort in nationalism. Today -- it's an EXCUSE to hate on Israelis or just any ole Jew..

So tell me.. If you are an Israeli Jew --- how could you love your country, but HATE Zionism --- if not for obscure Biblical justifications? (which a handful of Orthodox proclaim)

Or if you're an American (or Aussie) --- You can't be vehemently anti-Zionist and support Israels' Right to Exist. So on WHAT PLANET is being anti-Zionist NOT anti-Jewish if you deeply desire to see a forced Exodus of Jews from Israel?

OR -- if you are one of the regulars here that sling that Z-Word repeatedly -- don't be advertising how many Jew friends you have.. There's a difference between protesting and objecting to the POLICIES of the State of Israel and using the Z-word....

Zionism, just as Manifest Destiny, justified the dispossession of the native people. One can criticize Manifest Destiny (and what it did to the native americans) and not be anti-American.

Not to sound confrontational -- But so what are you gonna do about it?

I mean -- now when Zionism AND Manifest Destiny are both Historical curiosities..

If your plan involves lots of moving vans and armed guards -- that might answer the OP question..

When Zionism becomes an historical curiosity, it will probably be looked upon are Manifest Destiny or the American Colonization Society (Liberia) Charter is looked upon today. Your buddies are the ones that see "flattening" Gaza and ethnically cleansing the West Bank as solutions. I have always said, the only solution now is the establishment of a democratic and secular state for all the people of Palestine. And, that's what I believe will happen eventually.

No actually the more feasible solution is to negotiate an Egyptian takeover of Gaza (they're mostly Egyptian anyhow), and for Israel to annex the West Bank and call it by it's name for the last two thousand years, Judea and Samaria. A portion of the West Bank will be given back to be governed by the Jordanians, and the rest of the so called Palestinians will eventually migrate back into Jordan, where they came from. Either way, in two to three generations, the population of Israelis will overtake the Arab Muslims, so the annexation of the West Bank by Israel and handover of the remaining portion to Jordan will be more of a formality.

And considering that this ship has already sailed and in process, that is what is terrifying the so called Palestinians and their terrorist leadership the most.

Well, if that scenario makes you happy, good for you. But, deep down you know you are being silly. The non-Jews already outnumber the Jews in the territory the Israeli Jews now control, and the non-Jew population is increasing at a greater rate than the Jewish population. A secular democratic state where all people are enfranchised is the best solution.

Can't help myself. I really really want to discuss your "secular democratic state" idea. PLEASE start a thread.

 

[Juicin]

Zionism, just as Manifest Destiny, justified the dispossession of the native people. One can criticize Manifest Destiny (and what it did to the native americans) and not be anti-American.

Not to sound confrontational -- But so what are you gonna do about it?

I mean -- now when Zionism AND Manifest Destiny are both Historical curiosities..

If your plan involves lots of moving vans and armed guards -- that might answer the OP question..

When Zionism becomes an historical curiosity, it will probably be looked upon are Manifest Destiny or the American Colonization Society (Liberia) Charter is looked upon today. Your buddies are the ones that see "flattening" Gaza and ethnically cleansing the West Bank as solutions. I have always said, the only solution now is the establishment of a democratic and secular state for all the people of Palestine. And, that's what I believe will happen eventually.

No actually the more feasible solution is to negotiate an Egyptian takeover of Gaza (they're mostly Egyptian anyhow), and for Israel to annex the West Bank and call it by it's name for the last two thousand years, Judea and Samaria. A portion of the West Bank will be given back to be governed by the Jordanians, and the rest of the so called Palestinians will eventually migrate back into Jordan, where they came from. Either way, in two to three generations, the population of Israelis will overtake the Arab Muslims, so the annexation of the West Bank by Israel and handover of the remaining portion to Jordan will be more of a formality.

And considering that this ship has already sailed and in process, that is what is terrifying the so called Palestinians and their terrorist leadership the most.

Well, if that scenario makes you happy, good for you. But, deep down you know you are being silly. The non-Jews already outnumber the Jews in the territory the Israeli Jews now control, and the non-Jew population is increasing at a greater rate than the Jewish population. A secular democratic state where all people are enfranchised is the best solution.

Can't help myself. I really really want to discuss your "secular democratic state" idea. PLEASE start a thread.

Just because you don't like how your side is framed in the context doesn't make it irrelevant.

If the Zionists are racist colonial invaders no different than Afrikaners, it's obviously relevant.

Let's have this discussion, this is where Zionists lose. If you give up that Jews stealing land is moral and acceptable (for reasons you haven't backed up) then there is no debate. Isn't that convenient for a zionist? lol

Being anti apartheid is being anti anglo, dutch, or afrikaner? That's the most obvious analogy here

 

[flacaltenn]

The fact that only "religious nutters" hijacked the Nationalist Movement must be why when I was a kid PRACTICING Judaism -- we always ended the Passover Service with the cheer "Next year in Jerusalem". Heck I imagine that tradition goes back a ways --- don't you???

Wow yea let's use scripture and mythology as historical fact.

The only thing that could give you claim to Palestinian land is having Palestinian blood. Which not a single Ashkenazi has

That's not really the topic of this thread. There are plenty of other threads that examine the HISTORICAL claims to the land. This is about using the Z-word. And what the connotations of Zionist means today AFTER Israel has existed as an independent state for about 70 years.

Nationalist movements are EXACTLY what those Palis (whom Dems SAY they care about) NEED right now. Instead of tossing their kids against soldiers in the streets or firing missiles from Gaza into Israel.. THEY need leadership and a Zionist like movement.. So maybe they stop killing each other over control of the movement or the land.

It is the topic of this thread.

If Ashkenazi Isrealis are European colonists then that frames the debate.

If they were some how indigenous to Palestine that would frame the debate.

Is being anti zionist anti Jewish? or anti colonialist and anti racist? Context mattes, I mean I could frame it more directly. But you know what I mean

Edit - if they were indigenous they'd be no different than the Alawites who rule Syria...They're not though

Ancestry is NOT the issue once you've been a recognized state for 70 years. And once you've become a State, that Zionist "movement" ceases to be political and resorts back to tradition and biblical belief.

If you're trying to run an ethnocentric/theocratic state?

Yes it is

Ethnocentric -- yeah.. Theocratic --- not really. But Israel has absorbed refugees from other causes. It's just that Jewish persecution didn't end at the fall of the Reich. Israel has been safe harbors for millions of Russian Jews who suffered under the Soviet Union and Ethiopian Jews and Jews fleeing Arab countries for the past 50 years.

There's kind a theme there. But it's NOT Zionism. It's a commitment to providing refuge.

Likewise Israel is not the only place where Palis are suffering. There is a need for safe harbor there as well. And I imagine THEIR priorities would be focused on draining the "camps" in Lebanon,, Syria, Jordan and elsewhere.
So what???

 

[Juicin]

Wow yea let's use scripture and mythology as historical fact.

The only thing that could give you claim to Palestinian land is having Palestinian blood. Which not a single Ashkenazi has

That's not really the topic of this thread. There are plenty of other threads that examine the HISTORICAL claims to the land. This is about using the Z-word. And what the connotations of Zionist means today AFTER Israel has existed as an independent state for about 70 years.

Nationalist movements are EXACTLY what those Palis (whom Dems SAY they care about) NEED right now. Instead of tossing their kids against soldiers in the streets or firing missiles from Gaza into Israel.. THEY need leadership and a Zionist like movement.. So maybe they stop killing each other over control of the movement or the land.

It is the topic of this thread.

If Ashkenazi Isrealis are European colonists then that frames the debate.

If they were some how indigenous to Palestine that would frame the debate.

Is being anti zionist anti Jewish? or anti colonialist and anti racist? Context mattes, I mean I could frame it more directly. But you know what I mean

Edit - if they were indigenous they'd be no different than the Alawites who rule Syria...They're not though

Ancestry is NOT the issue once you've been a recognized state for 70 years. And once you've become a State, that Zionist "movement" ceases to be political and resorts back to tradition and biblical belief.

If you're trying to run an ethnocentric/theocratic state?

Yes it is

Ethnocentric -- yeah.. Theocratic --- not really. But Israel has absorbed refugees from other causes. It's just that Jewish persecution didn't end at the fall of the Reich. Israel has been safe harbors for millions of Russian Jews who suffered under the Soviet Union and Ethiopian Jews and Jews fleeing Arab countries for the past 50 years.

There's kind a theme there. But it's NOT Zionism. It's a commitment to providing refuge.

Likewise Israel is not the only place where Palis are suffering. There is a need for safe harbor there as well. And I imagine THEIR priorities would be focused on draining the "camps" in Lebanon,, Syria, Jordan and elsewhere.
So what???

With Jews ethnocentrism and theocracy go hand in hand...

Israelis deny the right of return to hundreds of thousands of people while pouring in foreigners onto land that is by right some one elses.

They are no better than Afrikaners morally. Israel may be recognized by international law but so is the right of return. And with the right of return it's going to be the state formerly known as Israel really quickly.

"Zionism" isn't about Israel. It's about a Jewish state in Palestine. A state no Jew has a right to expect on Palestinian land

No Ahskenazi has a blood claim to the land. Everything they do on that land is illegitimate as long as the right of return is not respected.

Anti Zionism is not antisemitism. Anti Zionism is the moral position one must take if you live in a multi racial settler colonial state like America. To do anything less would be at best deluded. At worst evil