CDZ And people have the gall to talk about how they've been "left behind," about what they can't do...

[320 Years of History]

you understand both worlds

I think I do, and I think that because I have grown to see I have been blessed in the few ways that one need be to see both worlds.

• I was born a white boy in an "old money" family.
• The people with whom I lived and who, in addition to my parents, most heavily influenced my childhood were the black women who worked in my parents' home. Occasionally I went to their homes and saw how they lived. Occasionally I listened to them discussing the "state things" as they saw them. I didn't, as a child, fully understand all or most of the factors in play, but I didn't forget about them as I grew older and learned more.
• As a teen and young adult, I observed the challenges (some social, some economic) faced by folks who weren't from the same background as I, but who were just as capable as I. I have seen them face those challenges and thrive just as I have, yet I didn't face those challenges. By all "common sense" reasoning, I should be "ahead" of them, yet I'm not; they and I are both highly successful socially and economically. Yet they clearly had to "do more" to achieve the same things (relatively more or less) as I.
• I chose to develop a career of my own instead of being groomed to take the reigns of my family's business. That angered my father, but I'm very happy with the choice I made for I did what I wanted to do and I did what I needed to do to be successful at it. Daddy figured out a way to keep the company going so that it'd be there for his grandkids to take on, and it looks like one of my kids wants to do just that.
• From my ~30th year on, I committed to helping a few kids each year who were from "challenging" backgrounds. My goal was merely to do what I could to help them at least not by their own and their parent's pardonable ignorance fall prey to the circumstances in which they had no choice but dwell. That has continued to the present. Over the course of those years, it's become clear to me that it's not about from where one comes or where one is, it's about what one does to move on to another place of one's choosing.

I get it. Given the nature of "the way things work" now, some folks will have an easier road to travel. I don't think that's right or fair, and I would like to see that change to afford all or most folks equally curvy, inclined or declined roads to travel, at least as far as society can by its collective will make that be so. If/when that happens, it may me my own children have to work harder to achieve what I have achieved. That's okay. I've prepared them to be able to work harder, so I expect they will if they want to achieve as I have.

People say "such and such" is hard. Well, they are right, it is. Truly, I didn't have "easy" to offer my mentorees or most anyone else. Not everyone can be born into the circumstance I and my children were. I wish everyone could be, but for now, they cannot. One can certainly bemoan one's situation or former situation or one can do something to get out of it and not put one's kids into it. "Doing something about it" means one must make the most of what they have, however meager that "something" be, just like Mr. Gilbert from the OP's video. The fact that "doing something" with the barest of beginnings is capable of resulting in "greatness" -- something that is infinitely harder to do pretty much everywhere else -- is what makes America the greatest country on Earth.

 

[320 Years of History]

Before that to happen I think the manufacturing circle, I was talking about has to take Its course and end up when Africa is built up with manufacturing hubs and Wal-Mart's coast to coast.

Given the existing "rules of the game," yes.

Sorry for spelling and grammar errors, but I think you get what I am saying...

NP...I think I do.

 

[320 Years of History]

My company I work for is a national effort in South carolina and no one is getting crushed by free trade.

The people who get crushed by free trade are the people who insist upon railing against it and pining for an macroeconomic model bereft of free trade.

 

[Wyatt earp]

you understand both worlds

I think I do, and I think that because I have grown to see I have been blessed in the few ways that one need be to see both worlds.

• I was born a white boy in an "old money" family.
• The people with whom I lived and who most heavily influenced my childhood were the black women who worked in my parents' home. Occasionally I went to their homes and saw how they lived. Occasionally I listened to them discussing the "state things" as they saw them. I didn't, as a child, fully understand all or most of the factors in play, but I didn't forget about them as I grew older and learned more.
• As a teen and young adult, I observed the challenges (some social, some economic) faced by folks who weren't from the same background as I, but who were just as capable as I. I have seen them face those challenges and thrive just as I have, yet I didn't face those challenges. By all "common sense" reasoning, I should be "ahead" of them, yet I'm not; they and I are both highly successful socially and economically. Yet they clearly had to "do more" to achieve the same things (relatively more or less) as I.
• I chose to develop a career of my own instead of being groomed to take the reigns of my family's business. That angered my father, but I'm very happy with the choice I made for I did what I wanted to do and I did what I needed to do to be successful at it. Daddy figured out a way to keep the company going so that it'd be there for his grandkids to take on, and it looks like one of my kids wants to do just that.
• From my ~30th year on, I committed to helping a few kids each year who were from "challenging" backgrounds. My goal was merely to do what I could to help them at least not by their own and their parent's pardonable ignorance fall prey to the circumstances in which they had no choice but dwell. That has continued to the present. Over the course of those years, it's become clear to me that it's not about from where one comes or where one is, it's about what one does to move on to another place of one's choosing.

I get it. Given the nature of "the way things work" now, some folks will have an easier road to travel. I don't think that's right or fair, and I would like to see that change to afford all or most folks equally curvy, inclined or declined roads to travel, at least as far as society can by its collective will make that be so. If/when that happens, it may me my own children have to work harder to achieve what I have achieved. That's okay. I've prepared them to be able to work harder, so I expect they will if they want to achieve as I have.

People say "such and such" is hard. Well, they are right, it is. Truly, I didn't have "easy" to offer my mentorees or most anyone else. Not everyone can be born into the circumstance I and my children were. I wish everyone could be, but for now, they cannot. One can certainly bemoan one's situation or former situation or one can do something to get out of it and not put one's kids into it. "Doing something about it" means one must make the most of what they have, however meager that "something" be, just like Mr. Gilbert from the OP's video. The fact that "doing something" with the barest of beginnings is capable of resulting in "greatness" -- something that is infinitely harder to do pretty much everywhere else -- is what makes America the greatest country on Earth.

Thanks for the story now I understand you better..

I was born in middle class

My dad and mom are still together after 51 years of marriage...

In my life I married a girl who's dad was a millionaire..a lawyer in Chicago and his son carried on the tradition

I have been in my life to many functions where lawyers and doctors party.

I also been around the middle class..

And in my party drug years been around the folks on the south side of Chicago...

I left Chicago for low taxes and a better way of life in south carolina..

Why am I telling you this I don't know. Maybe to brag I know all the classes as well as you?

I know I am articulate as you.but I know all the worlds. .and I love the life I created.

A simple guy from Chicago. Who knows how to be middle class and lives on a quiet lake in south carolina..

I won, I think?

 

[rdean]

Thanks. Where do all these Talking Points come from that people are always being accused of using? I mean it. Is there a site or something?

Rush Limbaugh, FoxNews, Reagan, Conservative Talk Radio...I'm not kidding.
Free Trade Doesn't Work: What Should Replace It and Why, 2011 Edition: Ian Fletcher: 9780578079677: Amazon.com: Books
Read this book and the author quotes a speech from, if I remember correctly, the 1600s or 1700s where the same bullshit was spewing from the elite.
It's as old as mankind.

Yes.

The best told lie of Free Trade (Supply Side Economics) is that the low wage nation will eventually catch up.
It never happens because Supply Side Economics DEPENDS on Slave Labor.
And after 40 years we see the lie that Ronald Reagan was paid to tell.

Again where is all the laughter now about cheap shit made in Japan?

You my friend are ignorant...

Unlike the US, Japan got their act together and created a Nationalistic economy.
It seems to have paid off.
Japan doesn't outsource to China like we do even though the elite in Japan wants it to happen.
YOU my friend are ignorant spouting Limbaugh talking points.
You won't even pay for a book.
Conservatism, like Liberalism, is a MENTAL disorder.

What's left? Fascism?

 

[rdean]

So, Let them eat cake?
I've read your reply, but it doesn't address my underlying question. Please explain how, in another of your threads yesterday, you argued that being very good at one thing doesn't generalize to whatever field of study you wish, yet here you argue that if someone was a skilled machinist in a paper mill for twenty years and knew it inside out, but the mill closed, somehow he is expected to become a talented musician or arborist and make it to the top?

A skilled machinist can get a job anywhere.

The U.S. Occupations at Greatest Risk of a Labor Shortage

That's the problem. Those without skills:

America has near record 5.8 million job openings

Hillary Clinton wants to educate Americans to fill those jobs that actually exist.

Trump wants to bring jobs back from China. Jobs that don't exist. He's just lying. Flat out lying.

I can get a job anywhere paying middle class wages, the problem is you have to start them young and liberals ruined generations of kids by saying it is ok for single mothers.

God damn all the tech training in the world can't teach kids the basic mechanical appitutde.

Red:
"Liberals" did not collectively do that. Individuals failed to take responsibility, ownership for themselves and they did it, for whatever reason(s), one by one.

Blue:
Given the nature of the shift in the global economy, comparatively few folks these days need or will benefit greatly from having well developed mechanical aptitudes. That skillset used to be in high demand. What is now greatly demanded by employers is analytical aptitude. That can be taught to folks of average or higher intellect, but, generally, it takes longer for a typical individual to build those skills than does developing the mechanical skills that were highly valued in the last millennium.

And according to Bill Gates, who seems to live on Capitol Hill, that analytical ability can only come from India or an African nation.
What's a concrete example of analytical aptitude?
And why do employers use the meme...Americans don't have the skill-set, as in an ACTUAL skillset?

Just speaking from my 51 years on this planet and been In manufacturing for 32 years plus he is right.

It has to deal with liberals and saying single moms are ok. Encourging that social demographic.

I have been complaining about this for 10 years plus, the kids we are getting out of college and trade schools have book knowledge but not basic fundamentals in turning a wrench

This reminds me have to tell a coworker today " lefty losey rights tightly "

These kids I am getting don't have basic fundamentals of a mechanical amplitude.

You can't teach trouble shooting skills when they are 18, you can't teach mechanical appitutde at 18,

It starts at two years old...with a dad.

Single moms must be OK. Or the right wouldn't be so anti abortion.

 

[Wyatt earp]

A skilled machinist can get a job anywhere.

The U.S. Occupations at Greatest Risk of a Labor Shortage

That's the problem. Those without skills:

America has near record 5.8 million job openings

Hillary Clinton wants to educate Americans to fill those jobs that actually exist.

Trump wants to bring jobs back from China. Jobs that don't exist. He's just lying. Flat out lying.

I can get a job anywhere paying middle class wages, the problem is you have to start them young and liberals ruined generations of kids by saying it is ok for single mothers.

God damn all the tech training in the world can't teach kids the basic mechanical appitutde.

Red:
"Liberals" did not collectively do that. Individuals failed to take responsibility, ownership for themselves and they did it, for whatever reason(s), one by one.

Blue:
Given the nature of the shift in the global economy, comparatively few folks these days need or will benefit greatly from having well developed mechanical aptitudes. That skillset used to be in high demand. What is now greatly demanded by employers is analytical aptitude. That can be taught to folks of average or higher intellect, but, generally, it takes longer for a typical individual to build those skills than does developing the mechanical skills that were highly valued in the last millennium.

And according to Bill Gates, who seems to live on Capitol Hill, that analytical ability can only come from India or an African nation.
What's a concrete example of analytical aptitude?
And why do employers use the meme...Americans don't have the skill-set, as in an ACTUAL skillset?

Just speaking from my 51 years on this planet and been In manufacturing for 32 years plus he is right.

It has to deal with liberals and saying single moms are ok. Encourging that social demographic.

I have been complaining about this for 10 years plus, the kids we are getting out of college and trade schools have book knowledge but not basic fundamentals in turning a wrench

This reminds me have to tell a coworker today " lefty losey rights tightly "

These kids I am getting don't have basic fundamentals of a mechanical amplitude.

You can't teach trouble shooting skills when they are 18, you can't teach mechanical appitutde at 18,

It starts at two years old...with a dad.

Single moms must be OK. Or the right wouldn't be so anti abortion.

What a pleasant surprise Rdean , I finally got under your nerves to be posting now in the CDZ?


So know you want to be civil and have a discussion?
Lets debate

 

[speeder099]

He built upon the existing field of theory and practice as goes card magic and innovated new ways to do things that others were doing and [that] there simply is no way he can do them as others do them. He did that entirely on his own.
You have a surprisingly optimistic view of all humans if you think each and every one of us is gifted with that kind of creativity and critical thinking. Or even the passion to try. Yes, those are the exceptions to the rule that we hold up as examples of what can be done, and it is fair to commend them. But the fact that Mr. Gilbert can do it and did do it does not mean that all people can do it. Isn't that what is called a Hasty Generalization?

Red:
Perhaps I do. I am certain, however, that my optimism about humanity is something I hold in a general sense, not on a person by person basis. What I think about any given individual depends on what strengths and weaknesses the person manifests.

I've seen a wide variety of folks who, by common measures, aren't "supposed" to "make it" in American society defy that "common understanding." From folks like Mr. Gilger to destitute immigrants who arrive with nary a nickel to their name, to the greatly impoverished kids whom I mentor and so on. If those individuals can "make it" in the very same society that folks like you and I do, it stands to reason that either (1) the society itself enables success or (2) the society itself is a contributing but not controlling factor in facilitating success, or (2) the society itself has little to do with catalyzing success. If disadvantaged folks who by all indications are not "supposed to make it" in our country indeed do so to the same extent other middle and upper middle class folks do, it stands to reason that folks not hampered by those disadvantages have nothing to blame but themselves for their failure to "make it" to a similar degree.

Of course, the "passion to try"** is a critical factor. The thing is that few are folks who are devoid of passion for everything; everyone is "into" something. You know as well as I do that in the U.S. there is very little of which there is simply no way to parly one's passion into an economically successful endeavor. Moreover, to do so, one need not have been the first person to have thought of doing "whatever." The reality is that people who are passionate about what they do for a living are also good at doing it, and their aptitude and passion allows those individuals to rise to the top of the field. Everyone at the top -- and there's definitely room for more than one person at the top -- of a field of remunerative endeavor "makes it."

For example, there's no way anyone in their right mind would fund or encourage any lofty ambition and will I might have for being a ball player (doesn't matter what kind of ball). In contrast, I have the skills and abilities to be very effective as a school provost, dean of studies, headmaster or teacher, but not a school president/key fundraiser, and given the opportunity, I could acquire the requisite experience/training to perform well in those roles. I don't particularly want to pursue a career/job in those roles in spite of the fact that I'm able to perform in them. Similarly, I'll never be the general managing partner in a firm like mine; I have no desire to do the work they do and nor to do it as they must.

As another example, I offer my father. The man just loves to build and assemble things...big things, small things, it doesn't matter. Even at 97 he's still building things by hand. Even now he's in the process of building a small end table and chair to give to my daughter as a housewarming gift. He chose to follow that passion by forming a company that builds, maintains and develops real estate structures and properties. (I, on the other hand, have zero ongoing desire to build things, yet I view knowing how to do so as a useful skill and I get a kick out of doing it from time to time.) My oldest son shares Daddy's passion for building things; he'll surely carry on the family business whereas the only way I would have done so is if I just had to.

My kids, my parents, and myself would have no excuse or basis for complaining about the ills of society being causal in our not having made it were that to be what happens to us. We are white, we are all "to the manor born," and none of us has any physical or intellectual inabilities. Of those three factors, it's clear that the economic one is the one that is irrelevant for there are literally millions of folks who have "made it" and who didn't come from similarly advantaged backgrounds. I could have followed in Daddy's footsteps, but I didn't want to, so I had to "make it" on my own. Heck, I didn't even choose a career wherein my family's position could "open doors" for me.

As a result, it's clear to me that society is not the driving cause of our or anyone's success; we, each of us individually, are. Now one can either take ownership of that responsibility or one can opt not to. If one opts not to, one has no business complaining that one hasn't "made it." And that's the point I'm making in this post and the OP.


Blue:
I think, yes, those individuals are exceptions to the "rule" that applies to them and others like them who are born into incredibly challenging situations. It's not at all, IMO, the "rule" that applies to the majority of individuals in our society.

Your father really is 97? Is he healthy and can he still walk?


Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk

 

[320 Years of History]

Rush Limbaugh, FoxNews, Reagan, Conservative Talk Radio...I'm not kidding.
Free Trade Doesn't Work: What Should Replace It and Why, 2011 Edition: Ian Fletcher: 9780578079677: Amazon.com: Books
Read this book and the author quotes a speech from, if I remember correctly, the 1600s or 1700s where the same bullshit was spewing from the elite.
It's as old as mankind.

Yes.

The best told lie of Free Trade (Supply Side Economics) is that the low wage nation will eventually catch up.
It never happens because Supply Side Economics DEPENDS on Slave Labor.
And after 40 years we see the lie that Ronald Reagan was paid to tell.

Again where is all the laughter now about cheap shit made in Japan?

You my friend are ignorant...

Unlike the US, Japan got their act together and created a Nationalistic economy.
It seems to have paid off.
Japan doesn't outsource to China like we do even though the elite in Japan wants it to happen.
YOU my friend are ignorant spouting Limbaugh talking points.
You won't even pay for a book.
Conservatism, like Liberalism, is a MENTAL disorder.

What's left? Fascism?

He built upon the existing field of theory and practice as goes card magic and innovated new ways to do things that others were doing and [that] there simply is no way he can do them as others do them. He did that entirely on his own.
You have a surprisingly optimistic view of all humans if you think each and every one of us is gifted with that kind of creativity and critical thinking. Or even the passion to try. Yes, those are the exceptions to the rule that we hold up as examples of what can be done, and it is fair to commend them. But the fact that Mr. Gilbert can do it and did do it does not mean that all people can do it. Isn't that what is called a Hasty Generalization?

Red:
Perhaps I do. I am certain, however, that my optimism about humanity is something I hold in a general sense, not on a person by person basis. What I think about any given individual depends on what strengths and weaknesses the person manifests.

I've seen a wide variety of folks who, by common measures, aren't "supposed" to "make it" in American society defy that "common understanding." From folks like Mr. Gilger to destitute immigrants who arrive with nary a nickel to their name, to the greatly impoverished kids whom I mentor and so on. If those individuals can "make it" in the very same society that folks like you and I do, it stands to reason that either (1) the society itself enables success or (2) the society itself is a contributing but not controlling factor in facilitating success, or (2) the society itself has little to do with catalyzing success. If disadvantaged folks who by all indications are not "supposed to make it" in our country indeed do so to the same extent other middle and upper middle class folks do, it stands to reason that folks not hampered by those disadvantages have nothing to blame but themselves for their failure to "make it" to a similar degree.

Of course, the "passion to try"** is a critical factor. The thing is that few are folks who are devoid of passion for everything; everyone is "into" something. You know as well as I do that in the U.S. there is very little of which there is simply no way to parly one's passion into an economically successful endeavor. Moreover, to do so, one need not have been the first person to have thought of doing "whatever." The reality is that people who are passionate about what they do for a living are also good at doing it, and their aptitude and passion allows those individuals to rise to the top of the field. Everyone at the top -- and there's definitely room for more than one person at the top -- of a field of remunerative endeavor "makes it."

For example, there's no way anyone in their right mind would fund or encourage any lofty ambition and will I might have for being a ball player (doesn't matter what kind of ball). In contrast, I have the skills and abilities to be very effective as a school provost, dean of studies, headmaster or teacher, but not a school president/key fundraiser, and given the opportunity, I could acquire the requisite experience/training to perform well in those roles. I don't particularly want to pursue a career/job in those roles in spite of the fact that I'm able to perform in them. Similarly, I'll never be the general managing partner in a firm like mine; I have no desire to do the work they do and nor to do it as they must.

As another example, I offer my father. The man just loves to build and assemble things...big things, small things, it doesn't matter. Even at 97 he's still building things by hand. Even now he's in the process of building a small end table and chair to give to my daughter as a housewarming gift. He chose to follow that passion by forming a company that builds, maintains and develops real estate structures and properties. (I, on the other hand, have zero ongoing desire to build things, yet I view knowing how to do so as a useful skill and I get a kick out of doing it from time to time.) My oldest son shares Daddy's passion for building things; he'll surely carry on the family business whereas the only way I would have done so is if I just had to.

My kids, my parents, and myself would have no excuse or basis for complaining about the ills of society being causal in our not having made it were that to be what happens to us. We are white, we are all "to the manor born," and none of us has any physical or intellectual inabilities. Of those three factors, it's clear that the economic one is the one that is irrelevant for there are literally millions of folks who have "made it" and who didn't come from similarly advantaged backgrounds. I could have followed in Daddy's footsteps, but I didn't want to, so I had to "make it" on my own. Heck, I didn't even choose a career wherein my family's position could "open doors" for me.

As a result, it's clear to me that society is not the driving cause of our or anyone's success; we, each of us individually, are. Now one can either take ownership of that responsibility or one can opt not to. If one opts not to, one has no business complaining that one hasn't "made it." And that's the point I'm making in this post and the OP.


Blue:
I think, yes, those individuals are exceptions to the "rule" that applies to them and others like them who are born into incredibly challenging situations. It's not at all, IMO, the "rule" that applies to the majority of individuals in our society.

Your father really is 97? Is he healthy and can he still walk?

"Yes" to both questions; however, he was diagnosed five years back with prostate cancer. He's chosen to do nothing about it. His biggest problem is that if you say something to him right now, an hour from now, he won't recall what you said, but in about a month, he'll have no trouble recalling the conversation.

Daddy also can and does drive, albeit only short distances (10 miles or less) to familiar destinations. He also does a bit of hobbyist carpentry and climbs a ladder from time to time to get at a bird feeder, fetch something from a high shelf or change a lightbulb. His household staff won't let him do those things if they see him trying, but he won't call upon them if he doesn't see them right there when he wants to do minor things he's capable of doing. He keeps staff mainly to spoil Mother, but certainly not so he doesn't have to do things he's able to do.