Anarchists and libertarians - Please click here

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

Sorry, i do not subscribe to, nor am I bound by, your purity test. One can respect and practice classical liberalism in degrees. It would not be hard for me to find someone whose purity test YOU would fail, so I don't see much value in your purity test.

That's it. Avoid the topic by setting impossible parameters.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Avoid the topic by setting impossible parameters.

Yes, I agree that is precisely what he is doing, with his purity test. I could easily devise tests that he would fail, so his standard is quite impossible.

Thanks, but i can make my points for myself. you should focus on your own points, since you still haven't finished making the ONLY point you even started to try to make.

 

[norwegen]

I'm libertarian.

I'm not sure why anyone would believe that anarchists are liberty-minded. Anarchy is more restrictive than even the most heavy-handed dictatorship. You'd have to always stay home just to defend your property.

 

[bendog]

No regieme change unless commies are involved though

Why? We defeated the largest communist country ever to exist without firing a single shot at them.

We're going OT here, but imo regieme change is only ok when the enemy represents a current and going REAL threat to our survival. That fit the commies. It does not fit NK or Iran.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Anarchists are delusional and would abandon their idiotic ideology the moment it negatively affected them in any way... which would be, literally, immediately, were it ever implemented.

I also find libertarians, in general, to be delusional, though I don't think this stems directly from libertarian ideology. In fact, I think these delusional people find libertarian ideology and decide that it suits them. One such delusion is to somehow think there is morality in capitalism or capitalists, instead of facing the truth that it is simply a system and a system of thought with no more morality or ethics than a man-eating shark.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

We're going OT here, but imo regieme change is only ok when the enemy represents a current and going REAL threat to our survival. That fit the commies.

But it doesn't anymore? Russia still has a nuclear arsenal that could destroy us. True, they are no longer "commies" in a pure sense, but the point remains.

People living on the West Coast or on Hawaii may not agree that NK does not threaten their survival. Did you just mean ... your own, personal survival?

 

[flacaltenn]

BIG L libertarians only started to make election progress

Progress? are we giving partial credit these days? Participation ribbons? there has been zero progress. Many people have simply rebranded belief sets that have been around since Socrates.

You're not seeing it because you bailed too quickly. The "progress" is in ballot access, debate access and election reform. We're working with the Greenies (an unlikely love affair) to break down the barriers to politics that the 2 Brand Name parties have built for a hundred years or more.

Every year, the amount of money, time, and energy we have to expend on the streets signing petitions, getting challenged in court DECREASES and more of those resources goes to actual politicking.

The "WINS" are on ISSUES. Like I said -- we' ve been right for years on interventionist foreign policy -- particularly in the MidEast. We've been right on reforming the Drug laws. We've been right on Civil Liberties like Domestic Spying and Asset Forfeiture and Eminent Domain and privacy. We've been right on the Culture wars and issues like social freedoms (1st Pres candidate was openly gay in the fucking 70s). We've been right on FISCAL sanity..

We CREATED the concept of Med. Savings Accounts and privatization in our great Think Tanks like the Cato Institute, The Institute for Justice, and the Reason Foundation.

AND -- we'd have qualified for perpertual Fed ballot access with about 2% more votes in the last election. Only thing keeping us from attaining that was the SHITSTORM of noise and juvenile conflict that the 2 parties brought to the competition and the fact that Americans only vote for "winners" and AGAINST the "other party"..

It's NOT about winning. You only need about 4 Independents/Libertarians in Congress to change the WHOLE dialogue and tone of what goes on there.

 

[Some Guy]

I would fall left of center, but not by a whole lot. I do like classical liberalism (supposedly the foundation of libertarianism, no?), but I do think it is correct to petition our government to ensure not just the simple individual rights of existence and possession, but also of quality of life. I do think we should have publicly funded education, healthcare, and elections. I think our espousal of capitalism generates more than enough wealth to accomplish these things that I feel are the very basics of human existence. I believe every human has a right to the basics of food shelter, and healthcare, and education.

So, call me a libertarian that doesn't hate government, but also does not "trust" government any more than I trust the people who invent and reinvent it every day. I believe in the rule of law, and I do not believe in thought crimes. I think suppression of terrible opinions neuters our society and removes our tools for meeting bad ideas head on with better ideas.

So, you tell me... what am I?

Your comment about "food, shelter, healthcare and education being basic human rights" is why you're being accused of being a communist. So, consider this...

Right = something that everyone should/has to be afforded.

If everyone is afforded it, where does it come from? Who provides it? The simple answer is "society."

Therefore, society is responsible for providing everyone with the basic needs of food, shelter, healthcare and education.

Furthermore, since those are all "rights", someone is afforded them regardless of whether or not they've contributed to the society in a manner equal to or exceeding the affording of said rights.

If i were to summarize that, i might say "from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs."

 

[norwegen]

Anarchists are delusional and would abandon their idiotic ideology the moment it negatively affected them in any way... which would be, literally, immediately, were it ever implemented.

I also find libertarians, in general, to be delusional, though I don't think this stems directly from libertarian ideology. In fact, I think these delusional people find libertarian ideology and decide that it suits them. One such delusion is to somehow think there is morality in capitalism or capitalists, instead of facing the truth that it is simply a system and a system of thought with no more morality or ethics than a man-eating shark.

You do not understand the political spectrum.

 

[Bruce_T_Laney]

Hi everybody. I'm just trying to get a sense for how many people here are truly freedom-minded. Please vote to indicate your position, and feel free to elaborate, or bring up anything you'd like (or just vent your inevitable frustrations) in this thread! Thanks so much!

*note that I've made a distinction between full-on anarchists/voluntaryists, Libertarian party supporters, and other libertarians who condone some form of minimal government.

Fiscal Conservative with Social Liberal views which mean I am for your freedom of choices in life just do not ask me to flip the bill with my tax dollars!

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

It's NOT about winning. You only need about 4 Independents/Libertarians in Congress

Well, I think they would actually have to win elections to be there.... right?

And history shows that the libertarians generally fall right in line with their GOP masters, given where the money flows from.. See Ron Paul. Sure, he was always HAPPY to grant a dissenting vote, whenever the outcome was all but assured. he's a fraud.

And the modern libertarian party seems to me to be pretty much carrying around a Ron Paul-written bible. no?

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Anarchists are delusional and would abandon their idiotic ideology the moment it negatively affected them in any way... which would be, literally, immediately, were it ever implemented.

I also find libertarians, in general, to be delusional, though I don't think this stems directly from libertarian ideology. In fact, I think these delusional people find libertarian ideology and decide that it suits them. One such delusion is to somehow think there is morality in capitalism or capitalists, instead of facing the truth that it is simply a system and a system of thought with no more morality or ethics than a man-eating shark.

You do not understand the political spectrum.

And you do, eh? Please, enlighten me.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

I am for your freedom of choices in life just do not ask me to flip the bill with my tax dollars!

For things like.... education? Healthcare for kids?

 

[flacaltenn]

If you're a classical Liberal as I am

Sorry, i do not subscribe to, nor am I bound by, your purity test. One can respect and practice classical liberalism in degrees. One can apply it to situations, and yet still believe we should have a functioning government that collects taxes and, at times, is collectivist.It would not be hard for me to find someone whose purity test YOU would fail, so I don't see much value in your purity test.

Makes for unhappy people when you SITUATIONALLY determine what you believe. It's NOT a cult. .It's the comfort of knowing that it all fits together.

What most folks don't appreciate about freedom and liberty is that the PREREQ for all that is TOLERANCE. That's a word you hardly hear anymore. Just because you TOLERATE someone else's freedom to choose does NOT MEAN you condone those actions. IN FACT -- you could be adamantly opposed to marijuana usage, but still stick to the principles of liberty and ALLOW that others SHOULD be able to choose.

When you realize what freedom and liberty is BASED on -- it makes you a happier camper in a world of people who are practicing HYPOCRITES on issues.

 

[bendog]

We're going OT here, but imo regieme change is only ok when the enemy represents a current and going REAL threat to our survival. That fit the commies.

But it doesn't anymore? Russia still has a nuclear arsenal that could destroy us. True, they are no longer "commies" in a pure sense, but the point remains.

People living on the West Coast or on Hawaii may not agree that NK does not threaten their survival. Did you just mean ... your own, personal survival?

No I meant theirs. NK has just shown it wants to survive. And having a nuke is a good thing, given our recent track records in taking out govts. Iran has never attacked us, nor threatened to. Which is more than we can say.

the Soviets explicitly said they were about ending Western democracy. And Reagan disposed of client states with our own client states. However, I thought the el Salvador and Nicaragua missions were ... a bit heavyhanded.

The point being, Johnson/Weld were less interventionist that Hillary, and Trump's military posture changes with whatever is on TV at the moment.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Makes for unhappy people when you SITUATIONALLY determine what you believe

yeah... so what? What DOESN'T make for unhappy people? nothing, that is what.

A rational adult decides things on a case by case basis. An ignorant ideologue is one who applies the same, ham-handed ideology regardless of any relevant information.

That's not a person ... it's an amoeba operating on a level no deeper than stimulus/response.

I will NEVER be that person, and neither will you. So spare yourself the failed attempt.

 

[norwegen]

Anarchists are delusional and would abandon their idiotic ideology the moment it negatively affected them in any way... which would be, literally, immediately, were it ever implemented.

I also find libertarians, in general, to be delusional, though I don't think this stems directly from libertarian ideology. In fact, I think these delusional people find libertarian ideology and decide that it suits them. One such delusion is to somehow think there is morality in capitalism or capitalists, instead of facing the truth that it is simply a system and a system of thought with no more morality or ethics than a man-eating shark.

You do not understand the political spectrum.

And you do, eh? Please, enlighten me.

History has demonstrated the morality of capitalism.

You're a die-hard leftist. If you actually did contemplate libertarianism, it was during a drunken stupor.

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

To me "big L" libertarians and anarchists are the same thing.

They aren't.

 

[Bruce_T_Laney]

I am for your freedom of choices in life just do not ask me to flip the bill with my tax dollars!

For things like.... education? Healthcare for kids?

You had them, so pay for them and if you can not then do not breed!

Why do you believe I should support your family through tax dollars?

Also all that can be done on Local and State levels and not the Federal Level!

 

[flacaltenn]

Hi everybody. I'm just trying to get a sense for how many people here are truly freedom-minded. Please vote to indicate your position, and feel free to elaborate, or bring up anything you'd like (or just vent your inevitable frustrations) in this thread! Thanks so much!

*note that I've made a distinction between full-on anarchists/voluntaryists, Libertarian party supporters, and other libertarians who condone some form of minimal government.

Fiscal Conservative with Social Liberal views which mean I am for your freedom of choices in life just do not ask me to flip the bill with my tax dollars!

You're too fixated on the misconception that writing checks from 3000 miles away actually fixes things. It's not a fixed pie. The govt often CREATES more problems than they solve with tossing money..