Americas outraged--Boston Tea party coming!

[oreo]

I am small business & deal with many others that are in their own business. I can't tell you how many small business people, that "normally don't pay attention to politics" are now finally taking notice of what our government has just done. THEY ARE OUTRAGED over this 700 BILLION DOLLAR BAIL-OUT.

Here we small business people out here in middle America struggleing to pay our employess, keep our business in a little black ink- & pay our taxes.

We see our government sponsoring irresponsible homebuyers--due to government policy--over Freddie Mac & Fannie Mae--government backed securites. A democrat party that put pressure on banks thru Fannie & Freddie to loan out to minorities & lower incomes in the belief that "everyone deserves homeownership, regardless of their ability to pay." It's the "buy the minority & lower income vote", sponsored by the U.S. taxpayer.

At any rate, I can't tell you how many I have talked too, that are saying they do not want to pay any federal income taxes in the future. They are willing to pay state taxes, but not anything to the federal government.

To add insult to injury we see a bail-out bill loaded with pork. Americans are sick & tired, & I really don't think many are going to stand for this anymore.

Our government just turned their backs on the responsible people that actually pay federal income tax in this country. And neither candidate--Barack Obama or John McCain gives a hoot about it. Both candidates are rewarding irresponsible people who bought homes they could not afford, while sticking it to the rest of us.

Everyone should realise from now on, that this disaster is exactly what happens when big government gets involved in the private sector.

If our government would have stayed out of the banking or mortgage loan business we would have never been in this mess. Now, not only our markets are crashing, they are crashing all over the world. We may be in for a very long depression because of federal government--self interested--intervention in the private sector.

 

[jillian]

*yawn*

 

[editec]

If our government would have stayed out of the banking or mortgage loan business we would have never been in this mess. Now, not only our markets are crashing, they are crashing all over the world. We may be in for a very long depression because of federal government--self interested--intervention in the private sector.

How?

How does the government which controls the amount of currency stay out of the market?

No matter what it does, it is a fundamental part of the market.

I understand your complaints, of course, but I have yet to see any of you free marketeers explain to me how a government can NOT be a MAJOR part of the market.

Outline your plan for how the government does what you expect of it, please.

 

[Skull Pilot]

How?

How does the government which controls the amount of currency stay out of the market?

No matter what it does, it is a fundamental part of the market.

I understand your complaints, of course, but I have yet to see any of you free marketeers explain to me how a government can NOT be a MAJOR part of the market.

Outline your plan for how the government does what you expect of it, please.

when government issues money, it makes itself part of the economy. you can't get away from it. the best possible scenario would be to go back to the gold standard but we all know that won't happen.

 

[editec]

But the GOLD STANDARD virtually insures us DEFLATION.

Why?

Because the amount of gold is relatively static compared to the amount of good and services the growing world's population produces.

Now if the population of the world stayed static (or decreased) I think the gold standard could work, but otherwise?

Well let's just say that we'd have to completely change the way we conduct all business.

For example...who is going to buy a car today, when they KNOW that the cost of that car will be lower tomorrow?

Multiply that effect on the cost of EVERYTHING and you understand the effects of DEflation on an economy.

I still thin the ONLY way this economy can work is to have a body which injects money into the system that accomodates the actual growth in good and services.

Naturally the potential for whomseever holds that power to inject money into the sytem will be enormous, and they can screw it up (as we have seen the Banks doing by injecting too much or too little money into the system) but sans such a system I do not think we can have a modern industrialized economy.

You see my point here?

INfaltion is not the only boogieman that can destroy an economy.

DEflation is just as deadly, maybe more so.

 

[Skull Pilot]

deflation on a massive scale now would be disastrous, I agree. look at what a little deflation in the real estate market did. Truthfully, we are too long in the age of money as fiat to return to the gold standard. Just some wishful thinking.

 

[sheltomlee]

Get rid of the price system entirely. It would have collapsed a long time ago if not for blood transfusions in the form of different wars.

 

[editec]

deflation on a massive scale now would be disastrous, I agree. look at what a little deflation in the real estate market did. Truthfully, we are too long in the age of money as fiat to return to the gold standard. Just some wishful thinking.

The gold standard did much to repress human development until the 19th century.

I heard recently that 80% of the world's current reserves have been found since the California gold strike.

So if gold was the medium of exchange, that means that most of the time most people simply did not (coiuld not possibly!) live in a cash economy.

And, given how uneven the distribution of gold still is, were we to return to that system, most of us would once again not live in a cash economy.

ARe you familiar with counting sticks, Skull?

If you are that gives you SOME idea of who unworkable a gold standard really is.

Ultimately having a fucnctinal currency really depends on having a fuctional government which can impose a currency as "legal tender" on the people.

Now that system can be fairly desdigned and well run, or it can be unfairly designed and terribly run, but that system appears to me to be the only way we can live in a modern capitalist system.

 

[dilloduck]

The gold standard did much to repress human development until the 19th century.

I heard recently that 80% of the world's current reserves have been found since the California gold strike.

So if gold was the medium of exchange, that means that most of the time most people simply did not (coiuld not possibly!) live in a cash economy.

And, given how uneven the distribution of gold still is, were we to return to that system, most of us would once again not live in a cash economy.

ARe you familiar with counting sticks, Skull?

If you are that gives you SOME idea of who unworkable a gold standard really is.

Ultimately having a fucnctinal currency really depends on having a fuctional government which can impose a currency as "legal tender" on the people.

Now that system can be fairly desdigned and well run, or it can be unfairly designed and terribly run, but that system appears to me to be the only way we can live in a modern capitalist system.

We may be closer to a single world unit of currency than we think.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Global_Economy/JF06Dj04.html

 

[AVG-JOE]

deflation on a massive scale now would be disastrous, I agree. look at what a little deflation in the real estate market did. Truthfully, we are too long in the age of money as fiat to return to the gold standard. Just some wishful thinking.

Nobody bitched about gas going from $5.00 to $3.90.

Why is a drop in prices such a bad thing? Stable prices are what we need.

Raise your hand if you don't believe house prices rose at a ridiculous rate for the last 15 years? Big, quick rise = big, quick decline... If steady growth is too slow for you, you have to put up with busts after you ride the booms.

This rise in real property values was promoted by the government because it circulated a lot of money. Lots of circulating money is very good for rich folks and bankers... Who is it now that owns both parties, again?

-Joe

 

[dilloduck]

Nobody bitched about gas going from $5.00 to $3.90.

Why is a drop in prices such a bad thing? Stable prices are what we need.

Raise your hand if you don't believe house prices rose at a ridiculous rate for the last 15 years? Big, quick rise = big, quick decline... If steady growth is too slow for you, you have to put up with busts after you ride the booms.

This rise in real property values was promoted by the government because it circulated a lot of money. Lots of circulating money is very good for rich folks and bankers... Who is it now that owns both parties, again?

-Joe

And who condoned circulating all this money ??? The Fed--our nations friendly banker.

 

[AVG-JOE]

And who condoned circulating all this money ??? The Fed--our nations friendly banker.

Write your CongressCritters... Congress.org Home

Tell them to support H.R. 2755: Federal Reserve Board Abolition Act (GovTrack.us)

and Dissolve the Federal Reserve.

-Joe

 

[sealybobo]

Write your CongressCritters... Congress.org Home

Tell them to support H.R. 2755: Federal Reserve Board Abolition Act (GovTrack.us)

and Dissolve the Federal Reserve.

-Joe

No Congress, no President has been strong enough to stand up to the foreign-controlled Federal Reserve Bank. Yet there is a catch - one that President Kennedy recognized before he was slain - the original deal in 1913 creating the Federal Reserve Bank had a simple backout clause. The investors loaned the United States Government $1 billion. And the backout clause allows the United States to buy out the system for that $1 billion. If the Federal Reserve Bank were demolished and the Congress of the United States took control of the currency, as required in the Constitution, the National Debt would virtually end overnight, and the need for more taxes and even the income tax, itself. Thomas Jefferson was concise in his early warning to the American nation, "If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issuance of their currency, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered."

The Federal Reserve Bunk

I think with the Internet, we might be able to make enough people aware to get this done!!!

 

[AVG-JOE]

And who condoned circulating all this money ??? The Fed--our nations friendly banker.

The Fed didn't really condone it per se... it was just a tool, doing what it was told.

-Joe

 

[dilloduck]

The Fed didn't really condone it per se... it was just a tool, doing what it was told.

-Joe

When did they even suggest it was a bad idea and whose orders were they following ?

 

[editec]

And who condoned circulating all this money ??? The Fed--our nations friendly banker.

There's where we people get confused.

The FED is NOT our nation's bank.

It merely has permission of our government to treat some people like MASTERS OF THE CURRENCY and the rest of us like peasants.

Until I can borrow money at the same rate of interest as CITIBANK, sport, the system is classist as hell.

I don't expect you to entirely understand this, but the whole sturcture of our economic classism is predicated on giving some of us access to capital at much cheaper rates (in the insider of all insiders cases their rate is ZERO PERCENT on money they CREATE OUT of thin air!) while the rest of us must borrow their fiat dollars (at interest) to help make those insiders not only rich but the MASTER CLASS who ride upon our backs our entire lives.

Just keep sucking up to the rich, lads, and I'm sure they're take care of you all just as long as you're a useful tools.

Consider that you will pay four or five times the amount you borrowed on your 30 year fixed rate mortgage.

Why?

Because you are paying that money back at interest, right?

Only until you signed on that dotted line there WAS NO MONEY.

Basically what you have done is go to the MASTER CLASS and asked permission to buy that house promising to pay THEM four or five times the amount of money they're going to give to the seller.

Adn bear in mind that the money they gave to the seller is NOT money they had to begin with.

Are you getting it yet?

The system is rigged to keep you slaving away to pay banks money (plus interest) on money they gave to the seller that they did not have until you promised to be THEIR SLAVE.

Nice racket, eh?

And FWIW, it's a system which guarantees that inflation will continuously lose purchasing power on anything you save UNLESS you too are welcomed to the MASTER CLASS who gets to CHARGE rates of interest higher than inflation.

If you've EVER wondered why people keep working but most of us stay poor?

there's the REAL reason for it, folks.

It has nothing to do with people being stupid or people not working hard enough it has to do with this system which is FIXED to keep you and your FOREVER beholden to the people who get to control the currency.

 

[AshamedAmerican]

Oreo is obviously the only one in this thread so far CAPABLE of thinking for himself, and for that I applaude you!

How?
How does the government which controls the amount of currency stay out of the market?
No matter what it does, it is a fundamental part of the market.
I understand your complaints, of course, but I have yet to see any of you free marketeers explain to me how a government can NOT be a MAJOR part of the market.
Outline your plan for how the government does what you expect of it, please.

First off the government does NOT control the ammount of currency... The federal reserve does. The federal reserve is NOT part of our government it is a private entity. It is no more "federal" than federal express is.

when government issues money, it makes itself part of the economy. you can't get away from it. the best possible scenario would be to go back to the gold standard but we all know that won't happen.

As I stated above the government does NOT issue our money... We gave away our ability to print money to the federal reserve in 1913... Please educate yourself before you run off at the mouth thinking you know what you are talking about.

This country has now become something exponentially worse than what our ancestors fled from in europe.
This is the symptom of a much larger, sinister problem that can no longer be avoided.

In our constitution it tells us that it is our right and duty, to stop this.
Until americans unite and burn down this monstrosity that our government has become, and forge ourselves a new gaurdian for our future, than we deserve this.

We are just as much at fault (for allowing this to happen) as the evil twisted sadists who are profiting from our financial demise.
Until we unite and take it back, not one single american has the right to complain.

We should be ashamed of ourselves, I promise you that our founding fathers are, and future generations will be as well.
This is truly a sad time to be living in, and we are only making it worse by allowing it to happen.

I agree with oreo...
We as americans are being left with one, and only one choice...
Take it back, burn it down, and rebuild it.

People should not fear their government. The government should fear the people.

 

[dilloduck]

There's where we people get confused.

The FED is NOT our nation's bank.

It merely has permission of our government to treat some people like MASTERS OF THE CURRENCY and the rest of us like peasants.

Until I can borrow money at the same rate of interest as CITIBANK, sport, the system is classist as hell.

I don't expect you to entirely understand this, but the whole sturcture of our economic classism is predicated on giving some of us access to capital at much cheaper rates (in the insider of all insiderscases their rate is ZERO PERCENT on money they borrow) while the rest of us must borrow their fiat dollars (at interest) to help make those insiders not only rich but the MASTER CLASS who ride upon our backs our entire lives.

Just keep sucking up to the rich, lads, and I'm sure they're take care of you all just as long as you're a useful tools.

They may as well be. They set the interest rate for all the rest of our banks.
They print money. They advise as to what policies we should adhere to.

 

[BaronVonBigmeat]

The gold standard did much to repress human development until the 19th century.

Not so, the classical gold standard in europe between the napoleonic wars and WWI saw tremendous gains in living standards.

I heard recently that 80% of the world's current reserves have been found since the California gold strike.

You heard wrong. The California gold rush provided a minor blip in gold's availability, and the conquest of the Aztecs provided a bigger boost. Even with those two considered, the supply has been pretty steady.

So if gold was the medium of exchange, that means that most of the time most people simply did not (coiuld not possibly!) live in a cash economy.

Gold was never the most common circulating medium. Silver was. That's why the constitution specifies a dollar as being .7747 oz. of silver--that was the weight of the spanish real, which was the de facto currency of the colonies.

And, given how uneven the distribution of gold still is, were we to return to that system, most of us would once again not live in a cash economy.

The only real annoyance with a metallic currency is divisibility. Today, one ounce of gold is nearly $1,000. (rounding up here ok) The smallest gold coin you can buy is like, 1/20 oz. so that is $50. And that sucker is tiny. Obviously, you can't easily buy a loaf of bread with that. Even with dimes, 1/10 of .7747 oz silver, you're still looking at something which today is worth like $1.50.

Thankfully though we can get minutely divisible currency today with digital currency, and with plastic currency. Print a plastic note embedded with a tiny flake of gold and all sorts of holographic security features. There's your dollar. 1/1000 oz. gold, and you'll never lose it in your pocket lint.

 

[BaronVonBigmeat]

But the GOLD STANDARD virtually insures us DEFLATION.

Why?

Because the amount of gold is relatively static compared to the amount of good and services the growing world's population produces.

Now if the population of the world stayed static (or decreased) I think the gold standard could work, but otherwise?

Well let's just say that we'd have to completely change the way we conduct all business.

For example...who is going to buy a car today, when they KNOW that the cost of that car will be lower tomorrow?

This happens constantly with computers and electronics, but people still buy them like crazy.

In an environment where prices slowly drift downward by 1%, yes technically people can make very small profits by sticking their money under a mattress. But a bank offering say, a 3.5% interest rate (this is where rates used to be) is still a much more attractive investment.

Plus you have the advantages of stable interest rates, and stable exchange rates. There are no real gains to be had from currency trading under a gold standard. If a dollar is 1/20 oz gold and a euro is 1/10 oz. gold, then they will always trade at a 2:1 ratio. You've effectively got a global currency. Our trade deficits didn't appear until after 1971, then they took off like a rocket ship. (okay, we had deficits in the 1800's, that was foreign capital investing in america which was good, blahblahblah) Labor unions used to support the gold standard for good reason, and it was always the merchantilists who wanted a central bank with a flexible currency, which they eventually got.

Anyway, I actually agree with your stuff here on page 2. You hit on an important point--he who creates the money and gets his hands on it first, gets the most benefit. If gangsters have their hands on a printing press, they benefit most, then the local merchants benefit 2nd most, until it filters throughout the economy.