American auto workers $71 per hr. Toyota $41 per hr. BAILOUT IS FOR UNION!

[Shogun]

seems like your arbitrary fucking opinion about ceo salary caps and line worker salaries is about as fragile as your scope of blame on this issue. Indeed, 150k line workers do more to stabilize this nation than your slap on the wrist for, as usual, the top 2%. As we see with the CEO decisions that lead to this clusterfuck it doesn't look like those illustrious degrees mean jack and shit to the bottom line. Who chose to sell SUVs again? The guy putting on the stearing wheel or the guy whose golden parachute you've just rationalized with some goofy fucking "levels of success" excuse? I mean, NOTHING SAYS CEO SUCCESS QUITE LIKE RUNNING THE COMPANY INTO THE FUCKING GROUND AND ASKING FOR A BAILOUT!




meanwhile, that middle class that you'd chase out of town like frankenstein running from a buch of torchbearing peasants...

 

[Andrew2382]

so let get this straight

according to you

the guy who dropped out of high school/got a ged/didn't go to college

should be making more then people thata actually went to school?

I shoul dhave just dropped out, learn how to put a windshield ona car and make 100k a year plus.

FUCK WHAT THE HELL DID I GO TO COLLEGE FOR.

I mean why reward success and hard work? Just pay the people who didn't work to get there they are salaries they don't deserve.

GREAT IDEA

also, I think you either have a severe reading comprehension disorder or are just stupid.

I AM NOT DEFENDING THE CEO'S. One of the main reason is bad management and foresight, I have said it numerous times, but it isn't the only reason

 

[Navy1960]

I stated this in another thread related to this issue, you can hardly blame the worker for accepting benefits and wages that are agreed upon by both UAW management and the auto companies. It creates a culture where the expectation is the salary and healthcare benefits are high and when they asked to be brought in line with competitive wages and benefits then it becomes a sore point. It is rather two faced however for a CEO or for that matter a Senior manager to ask of his or her employee's to take a cut in the very pay they agreed upon if they are unwilling to do the same. In fact the downfall of these once great companies are obvious to me, poor management, poor product placement, poor engineering, poor brand identification, slow to resond to market needs, high wage/pension/ healthcare costs. In short when someone looks to place blame , one should blame not only the Senior management of the Big 3 but also the UAW management that has for years not taken into consideration the companies survival much to the detriment of the members they were supposed to represent.

 

[Andrew2382]

100% true Navy

I don't blame the workers for it

If someone offers you a golden egg, youa re going to take it. It is bad management foresight and contract negogations

 

[Shogun]

so let get this straight
according to you
the guy who dropped out of high school/got a ged/didn't go to college
should be making more then people thata actually went to school?

given the complete failures of those who, in this case, WENT TO FUCKING SCHOOL? Since when did going to college facilitate the middle class? This is a pretty weak ass strawman, don't you think? Show me an example of a line worker EVER making even remotely close to an equivilent salary as that of your favorite class.


I shoul dhave just dropped out, learn how to put a windshield ona car and make 100k a year plus.
FUCK WHAT THE HELL DID I GO TO COLLEGE FOR.

Hopefully, personal enrichment and for deeper knowledge. But, clearly, you must have thought that a piece of paper guarenteed you a fucking exponential salary multiplier of at least 10. Indeed, maybe if you failed as bad as the CEOs you are defending then you'd actually deserve your 100k... or something.



I mean why reward success and hard work? Just pay the people who didn't work to get there they are salaries they don't deserve.
GREAT IDEA


BEGGING FOR A FUCKING BAILOUT SURE DOES SOUND LIKE SUCCESS AND HARD WORK, DOESNT IT?


also, I think you either have a severe reading comprehension disorder or are just stupid.
I AM NOT DEFENDING THE CEO'S. One of the main reason is bad management and foresight, I have said it numerous times, but it isn't the only reason



the fuck you aren't. You are trying to throw the goddamn UAW under the goddamn bus as if THEY chose to make SUVs when gas prices were swelling. I haven't seen you make ONE fucking argument FOR reducing corporate salaries but I can scroll up and watch you circle jerk with the rest of your predictable capitalist buddies about the cost of fucking union labor. Hell, if you feel that workers, the goddamn backbone of the fucking middle class, should be paid what a fucking ghettofied mexican makes per year then have the balls to say so instead of trying to dance when I point a spotlight at you.


sheesh.

 

[Shogun]

I stated this in another thread related to this issue, you can hardly blame the worker for accepting benefits and wages that are agreed upon by both UAW management and the auto companies. It creates a culture where the expectation is the salary and healthcare benefits are high and when they asked to be brought in line with competitive wages and benefits then it becomes a sore point. It is rather two faced however for a CEO or for that matter a Senior manager to ask of his or her employee's to take a cut in the very pay they agreed upon if they are unwilling to do the same. In fact the downfall of these once great companies are obvious to me, poor management, poor product placement, poor engineering, poor brand identification, slow to resond to market needs, high wage/pension/ healthcare costs. In short when someone looks to place blame , one should blame not only the Senior management of the Big 3 but also the UAW management that has for years not taken into consideration the companies survival much to the detriment of the members they were supposed to represent.

You might wanna remember that "competivite salary" no longer reflects an AMERICAN standard of living in this free market capitalist pipe dream. NOW, you get to normalize industry wages with that of a fucking ghetto mexican, indian beggar and chinese semi-slave. If thats the "competitive salary" range that you have in mind then you are still part of the same problem that provided this crumbling middle class that has been the gem of our society, oh, since the greatest fucking generation was busy chasing the American dream. Thanks for exporting our American dream to that of a "competitive" third world country.

 

[Angel Heart]

Exactly. They should call it the UAW Bail Out, or the Democrat Party Campaign Finance Fund.

I feel bad for the management and stockholders for the Big Three, but bankruptcy is the only way to break the union that has them all in a strangle hold.

Fuck management and their jets. They let the unions reach this point. They conceded how much to them over the years. And yet travel by private jet... FUCK ALL OF THEM!!! Union, management... ALL OF THEM!

MY husband makes $19 an hour with benefits he's at around $32. He brings in the only income and yet these assholes are bitching about having to loose their jets. Then the union not giving a bit to keep their doors open and still have jobs.... FUCK THEM.

Everyone better be contacting their congress rep and senators about this. Don't let them get away with more fleecing. Tell Barney Frank and his union buddies to fuck off!

 

[Angel Heart]

Noone is saying to pay them as much also you moron.

Gotta make cuts across the board, from the top on down

EXACTLY!!!

The entire system at all 3 of them needs overhauling. If they don't... FUCK 'UM!

 

[Angel Heart]

100% true Navy

I don't blame the workers for it

If someone offers you a golden egg, youa re going to take it. It is bad management foresight and contract negotiations

ITA too. I don't blame the regular workers. I blame the UNION and the MANAGMENT. Sad thing is the workers will get the worst of it no matter what way we go. Best way for them would be to renegotiate the contract. Better yet start a whole new one. Heads at the union and the companies need to roll due to all this. None of them can make a sound business decision.

 

[Navy1960]

You might wanna remember that "competivite salary" no longer reflects an AMERICAN standard of living in this free market capitalist pipe dream. NOW, you get to normalize industry wages with that of a fucking ghetto mexican, indian beggar and chinese semi-slave. If thats the "competitive salary" range that you have in mind then you are still part of the same problem that provided this crumbling middle class that has been the gem of our society, oh, since the greatest fucking generation was busy chasing the American dream. Thanks for exporting our American dream to that of a "competitive" third world country.

I hardly think that 15.00 dollars an hour as a starting wage is equal to that of an Indian Beggar, much less a ghetto mexican. What I am saying Shogun is that 27.00 an hour with basically free healthcare benefits is not inline with pretty much the rest of the corporate world and that includes the blue collar world as well. Again, I don't blame the workers for taking advantage of what is offered them, competitive wages and salary would include what others make in a like job and that includes paying for their healthcare benefits. Take for example an employee that makes 32.00 and hour and does not pay for his healthcare but over the years has used 200,000.00 dollars in benefits because of his own bad habits, that is a cost that most companies in this country do not have to take on in full. I am not saying competitive means third world country , but what I am saying is that the Auto industry needs to align itself with industry norms here in the United States or it will die. When you can show me an Idian beggar making 15.00 and hour which is the starting wage at the Toyota non-union plant in San Antonio, Tx. then let me know. Another thing, "competitive" means a wage that does not include 37 paid holiday's and COLA's for each hundred dollars in wages. It means as the old Union saying goes " A fair days pay for a fairs days work".

 

[DiamondDave]

Show me an example of a line worker EVER making even remotely close to an equivilent salary as that of your favorite class.

Show me an example where the skill needed to work the line is in rare supply compared to the skill needed to run and manage all aspects of a huge corporation

The key is that there are abuses on BOTH sides, shogun.... the price for UAW line labor is EXTRAORDINARILY HIGH, compared to the skill needed... is it that much more skill, or that much more of a rare skill than assembling a circular saw, or a briggs and stratton lawn mower motor? Is it something that really is deserving of a salary in the 150K range?

PUH-LEASE

I am certainly not advocating or supporting golden parachutes, or the practice of flying around on private jets on the company expense when the company is hurting, or earning 200MIL to run a company into the ground, or no repercussions for bad business

 

[Shogun]

I hardly think that 15.00 dollars an hour as a starting wage is equal to that of an Indian Beggar, much less a ghetto mexican. What I am saying Shogun is that 27.00 an hour with basically free healthcare benefits is not inline with pretty much the rest of the corporate world and that includes the blue collar world as well. Again, I don't blame the workers for taking advantage of what is offered them, competitive wages and salary would include what others make in a like job and that includes paying for their healthcare benefits. Take for example an employee that makes 32.00 and hour and does not pay for his healthcare but over the years has used 200,000.00 dollars in benefits because of his own bad habits, that is a cost that most companies in this country do not have to take on in full. I am not saying competitive means third world country , but what I am saying is that the Auto industry needs to align itself with industry norms here in the United States or it will die. When you can show me an Idian beggar making 15.00 and hour which is the starting wage at the Toyota non-union plant in San Antonio, Tx. then let me know. Another thing, "competitive" means a wage that does not include 37 paid holiday's and COLA's for each hundred dollars in wages. It means as the old Union saying goes " A fair days pay for a fairs days work".

HERE are your "competitive wages" dude..


Race to the bottom: Mexico lowers wages to snare international auto production

MEXICO CITY: Mexican auto unions are taking a cue from U.S. labor leaders by offering two-tier hiring schemes and salary cuts that bring already low wages down to near-Chinese levels.

As more automakers turn to Mexico, a big argument for the North American Free Trade Agreement in 1993 — that Mexico's low wage rates would slowly rise to close the gap with U.S. wages — seems to have been thrown in reverse.

"The pressure has not been to raise the Mexican wages up, it's been to push the U.S. wages down," said Ben Davis, the director of the AFL-CIO Solidarity office in Mexico City.
Race to the bottom: Mexico lowers wages to snare international auto production - International Herald Tribune


Mexican autoworkers' wages driven further south
And now Mexican wages are being pushed down even more.

Wage concessions were apparently critical to persuading Ford Motor Co. to direct many of the 4,500 new jobs involved in building Fiestas to the Ford plant in Cuautitlan, on the outskirts of Mexico City. Union leaders at the plant told The Associated Press they had agreed to cut wages for new hires to about half the current level of $4.50 per hour.

“We agreed to it,” said Ford union leader Juan Jose Sosa Arreola. “We need to be more competitive. That's the truth. That's a reality.”
Mexican autoworkers' wages driven further south | The San Diego Union-Tribune


Factories Go South. So Does Pay
Mexico's auto industry is booming, but parts outsourcing is keeping a lid on wages

These should be the best of times for Mexico's auto industry. The country produced a record 2 million cars and light trucks last year, exporting three-fourths of them, while more than $4 billion in foreign investment poured into the sector. And the government anticipates much more as Detroit's cash-strapped automakers head south for cost savings.

But Mexico's auto workers are worried. The reason: outsourcing. Sure, U.S. carmakers are shuttering plants up north, which will likely lead to new factories in Mexico. General Motors Corp. (GM ), for example, is building a $600 million plant in San Luis Potosí that will employ 2,000 starting in 2008. The Mexicans, though, fear new investments may not mean oodles of relatively high-paying jobs. That's because even south of the border automakers face relentless pressure to cut costs.

So they're saving on inventory and labor by shifting work to suppliers, which deliver pre-assembled pieces of cars directly to the factory floor. More than 13,500 parts jobs were created in Mexico last year, vs. 4,500 coveted assembly positions, which have been a ticket to the middle class for many Mexicans. "Ford and other automakers are increasingly relying on outsourcing," says Juan José Sosa, national secretary-general of the Ford Autoworkers Union in Mexico. And like their Detroit counterparts, Mexican auto workers are feeling the squeeze of global competition. "The companies are always saying...that in China costs are much lower or that unions in the U.S. are offering very good concessions," says Sosa. Ford acknowledges that it's outsourcing more, as part of an effort to become more competitive worldwide.
Factories Go South. So Does Pay

 

[Shogun]

Show me an example where the skill needed to work the line is in rare supply compared to the skill needed to run and manage all aspects of a huge corporation

The key is that there are abuses on BOTH sides, shogun.... the price for UAW line labor is EXTRAORDINARILY HIGH, compared to the skill needed... is it that much more skill, or that much more of a rare skill than assembling a circular saw, or a briggs and stratton lawn mower motor? Is it something that really is deserving of a salary in the 150K range?

PUH-LEASE

I am certainly not advocating or supporting golden parachutes, or the practice of flying around on private jets on the company expense when the company is hurting, or earning 200MIL to run a company into the ground, or no repercussions for bad business

oh yes, dude.. NOTHING SAYS RARE CEO SKILL quite like begging for a fucking bailout! I tellya, that "running and managing" of the company sure was a giant fucking value, wasn't it?

"extraordinarily high" compared to WHAT? the cost of labor in ghetto fucking mexico? News flash, buddy... 15/hr didn't create a comfortable middle class. Hiding behind rhetorical bullshit for the sake of ignoring the same bourgeois excuses we've seen time and again won't make the drop in American SOL any less of a product of this "competitiveness" you speak of. Extraordinarioy high compared to slave wages in mexico and china? You are goddamn right.

 

[Navy1960]

Shogun, you totally misunderstand my point, my contention is based on American wages not mexican wages. While I don't deny these car companies are moving operations out of the country as a way of saving money, thats obvious. What I would advocate is this, if the wages are more competive in this country as compared to Honda and Toyota here in the United States across the board then the need to move those factories to mexico and brazil would not be needed.

 

[Andrew2382]

given the complete failures of those who, in this case, WENT TO FUCKING SCHOOL? Since when did going to college facilitate the middle class? This is a pretty weak ass strawman, don't you think? Show me an example of a line worker EVER making even remotely close to an equivilent salary as that of your favorite class.

Because every CEO drives their company in the ground right? When did not going to college facilitate the middle class? Middle class people with BA degrees have an median income of about 55k a year. That seems pretty middle class to me. I never said the line worker was going to make anything near what a CEO makes. Thats the fucking point he isn't suppose too. There are levels of acheivement and success. The CEO should make more. However, sorry but a line worker with minimum education who makes 70-100 k a year? That makes sense.

[/B]Hopefully, personal enrichment and for deeper knowledge. But, clearly, you must have thought that a piece of paper guarenteed you a fucking exponential salary multiplier of at least 10. Indeed, maybe if you failed as bad as the CEOs you are defending then you'd actually deserve your 100k... or something.

Actually yes you are right. See, if you have that piece of paper (a college degree) then you should be more desired and deserve more reward. Once again, there you go stating that every CEO has failed their companies. There are many good CEO's that do the right thing and make thier companies better. Unfortunately you are focusing on the 10 that have been in the news and are piling them all one bucket. I would love to know what you do for a living Sho

BEGGING FOR A FUCKING BAILOUT SURE DOES SOUND LIKE SUCCESS AND HARD WORK, DOESNT IT?

Once again, you get the impression i am defending these CEO's, I think they did an awful job and need to be removed. They could have prevented this years ago and didn't. Bad management, bad foresight, bad union negogations.

the fuck you aren't. You are trying to throw the goddamn UAW under the goddamn bus as if THEY chose to make SUVs when gas prices were swelling. I haven't seen you make ONE fucking argument FOR reducing corporate salaries but I can scroll up and watch you circle jerk with the rest of your predictable capitalist buddies about the cost of fucking union labor. Hell, if you feel that workers, the goddamn backbone of the fucking middle class, should be paid what a fucking ghettofied mexican makes per year then have the balls to say so instead of trying to dance when I point a spotlight at you.

There you go spewing nonsense. I did say corporate salaries should go down. I said ALL salaries need to go down from the top on down. This has nothing to do with them making SUV's it has to do with them only focusing on SUV"s. LEt's not forget the SUV saved the auto industry in the 90's. However, it is the only thing they marketed and let the famoly sedan out to dry and Accords and Camry's came rolling in and cornered the market essentially.

However, to try and sit there and say its fair that GM employees get paid double then everyone else is nonsense. It is a failure on mulitple levels not just one. From management to unions

 

[DiamondDave]

oh yes, dude.. NOTHING SAYS RARE CEO SKILL quite like begging for a fucking bailout! I tellya, that "running and managing" of the company sure was a giant fucking value, wasn't it?

"extraordinarily high" compared to WHAT? the cost of labor in ghetto fucking mexico? News flash, buddy... 15/hr didn't create a comfortable middle class. Hiding behind rhetorical bullshit for the sake of ignoring the same bourgeois excuses we've seen time and again won't make the drop in American SOL any less of a product of this "competitiveness" you speak of. Extraordinarioy high compared to slave wages in mexico and china? You are goddamn right.

So all CEO's ask for a bailout?? Hardly a good argument there shogun....

No.

The skills to actually perform the duties of CEO, are actually very rare though... unlike that of an assembly line worker

75 and hour extraordinarily high for assembly line? You betcha... a higher hourly rate than more electrical engineers, internet backbone architects, and more earning than a lot of lawyers

What next? unionize McDonalds to ensure "you want fries with that" pays $15 an hour? That must be a rare skill too

 

[Shogun]

Shogun, you totally misunderstand my point, my contention is based on American wages not mexican wages. While I don't deny these car companies are moving operations out of the country as a way of saving money, thats obvious. What I would advocate is this, if the wages are more competive in this country as compared to Honda and Toyota here in the United States across the board then the need to move those factories to mexico and brazil would not be needed.

But you assume that Honda and Toyota are equally matched with American companies operating by an American standard when they are not. There is a CLEAR deficit in trade between American Auto companies and Asian Auto companies. I mean it's fucking massive. So, no, it's not accurate at all to assume that all things are equal when comparing the wages of an American Toyota plant with an American Ford plant when there is a giant trade deficit that allows asian car companies to offer 15/hr in the US while American companies cannot. let's see some equal trade happening between companies that we fall over each other to import from before we try to compare line worker wages.

 

[Shogun]

Because every CEO drives their company in the ground right? When did not going to college facilitate the middle class? Middle class people with BA degrees have an median income of about 55k a year. That seems pretty middle class to me. I never said the line worker was going to make anything near what a CEO makes. Thats the fucking point he isn't suppose too. There are levels of acheivement and success. The CEO should make more. However, sorry but a line worker with minimum education who makes 70-100 k a year? That makes sense.

In this case, yes.. you are goddamn right these CEOs ran the company into the fucking ground by DECIDING to producing a product like an SUV. And not all degrees promise 55k per year. ESPECIALLY when we see degree mills flooding the fucking market with an educational product that totally ignores the necessity of manufacturing. Earning a degree doesn't make your work any more valuable than any given skill needed to do a job. Lets see your degreed ceos put together a fucking steering column and you can tell me just how uniquely valuable their education is.

and yes, in regards to the stabalization of the middle class, it does make sense since those line workers are actually out there performing THEIR jobs without the king of utter fucking failure that we see today from the golden 2%.






Actually yes you are right. See, if you have that piece of paper (a college degree) then you should be more desired and deserve more reward. Once again, there you go stating that every CEO has failed their companies. There are many good CEO's that do the right thing and make thier companies better. Unfortunately you are focusing on the 10 that have been in the news and are piling them all one bucket. I would love to know what you do for a living Sho


Go take your degree and put a fucking drive shaft together with it and tell me about how valuable your skills are, dude. So you can type and you've read some fucking text books. WOW.

Im in HR. and I know exactly how fucking worthless a great many empty suits are.



Once again, you get the impression i am defending these CEO's, I think they did an awful job and need to be removed. They could have prevented this years ago and didn't. Bad management, bad foresight, bad union negogations.


Union negotiations didn't cause these plants to make a bad decision on what to produce.




There you go spewing nonsense. I did say corporate salaries should go down. I said ALL salaries need to go down from the top on down. This has nothing to do with them making SUV's it has to do with them only focusing on SUV"s. LEt's not forget the SUV saved the auto industry in the 90's. However, it is the only thing they marketed and let the famoly sedan out to dry and Accords and Camry's came rolling in and cornered the market essentially.

Yes, it has EVERYTHING to do with the product they make which isn't being sold to consumers who don't want a fucking gas hog given fuel prices the last 5 years. Had those halo angels decided to make a fuel efficient car with all the bells and whistles instead of BEHEMOTHS.. well.. I guess we see how that strategy has worked for toyota, haven't we?



However, to try and sit there and say its fair that GM employees get paid double then everyone else is nonsense. It is a failure on mulitple levels not just one. From management to unions



Indeed, they get paid double the amount of a worker at a foreign owned company whose trade deficits allow one hell of an excuse to pay lowered wages, eh? You wanna see those trade deficit numbers again? NEWS FLASH: toyota probably doesn't have much loyalty to the people of the United States.

 

[Shogun]

So all CEO's ask for a bailout?? Hardly a good argument there shogun....

No.

The skills to actually perform the duties of CEO, are actually very rare though... unlike that of an assembly line worker

75 and hour extraordinarily high for assembly line? You betcha... a higher hourly rate than more electrical engineers, internet backbone architects, and more earning than a lot of lawyers

What next? unionize McDonalds to ensure "you want fries with that" pays $15 an hour? That must be a rare skill too

How many have you heard about lately? Bundled with the last round of Airline bailout etc. I'd say the excuse of "rare skills to act as ceo" is a bunch of baby shit smelling tripe. Indeed, it sure does take a fucking near genius with skills like mr. fan-fucking-tastic to run the enrons, eh? This "rare skill" bullshit is about as laughable as GM's "lets make suvs while gas is 4 dollars a fucking gallon" strategy!

 

[Andrew2382]

I am pretty sure that after a day of training I could put 1000 drive shafts together. Thats what an assembly line is....you learn one aspect and you stay there ands thats all you do.

Can those assemly people do the accounting? The litigations? The Risk Management? The Engineering? The Research and Development? Should I go on? No they can't because they weren't educated on it. It's not like you need a mechnical expereince to go work on a line. They hire you , you go to your stations and they train you wha you need to screw in and put together and then move onto the next.

Upper Management, has to manage all those people, salaries, productivity, ie HAVE MORE RESPONSIBILITIES!

Now before you try to turn it around and say begging for a bailout is real tough. I AM NOT DEFENDING THESE PARTICULAR CEOS. they fucked up!

also, the SUV is fucking fine, they didn't market the 4 door sedan that is their problem which are always better on fuel as well. Accords, Camry's etc... cornered the market from them. SUV sale swent down and they had no product to sell. You apparently never worked in the auto industry before.