Adapting Infrastructure to Rising Sea Levels

[Abraham3]

Sorry, Frank, but I think we're done.

 

[westwall]

I obviously believe a different prediction than you do. It's the one being made by the experts in the field.

The "experts" who have failed to make an accurate prediction in 30 years. Good one! Give them a few more decades and they'll qualify as the new "Flat Earth" experts!

 

[ScienceRocks]

New Orleans has spent tens of billions to build up the sea walls and levies.

Do you support this?

 

[westwall]

South Florida Adapting Infrastructure to Rising Sea Levels | Popular Science

Updates for climate change resilience may allow communities like Miami Beach to survive the century, but they're costing millions of dollars ...

In South Florida, more frequent and destructive flooding due to climate change has become a serious problem. This March 19 report by the PBS News Hour and WPBT looks at how communities like Miami Beach and Broward County are trying to adapt their physical systems to stand up to the new reality.

The drainage infrastructure on the Florida coast has relied upon gravity to draw rainfall runoff from higher canal levels to lower sea level, according to the report. But warming temperatures are raising sea level too high for these systems to work, by expanding the size of water molecules at the ocean's surface, while also melting glaciers that historically kept much of the world's fresh water locked away from the ocean. Climate change is also causing briefer but torrential rainfalls, creating more runoff than the drainage systems were built to handle all at once.

The first words in the segment, spoken by fishing boat captain and Florida native Dan Kipness, set a pragmatic tone. “Captains are used to looking at the ocean," says Kipness,

If you look at it long enough — and I have had enough time to look at it — you can see small changes turn into big changes over a period of time. You’re going to see water coming out of Biscayne Bay, up the storm sewers, and onto the streets until it’s about a foot deep.

“And that’s not freshwater. That’s saltwater. There’s no rain. There’s not a cloud in the sky.

Video at the link.

We're spending money on the wrong things.

FLA is doomed.

Doubt me?

Try buying HOME OWNERS insurance in FLA.

Florida most expensive in nation for home insurance | News-JournalOnline.com

Florida most expensive in nation for home insurance | News-JournalOnline.com

No hurricanes, but Florida property insurance rate hikes keep coming | HeraldTribune.com

Now I totally understand that right wingers doubt the veractiy of left wingers.

But INSURANCE COMPANIES are hardly run by lefties.

They are bastions of pragmatic thinking designed to measure risk v reward.

Clearly they think FLA is in trouble..

What do they know that the Climate weirding denialists don't?

Insurance companies are out to make money. Here the "experts" have given them a blanket ability to raise rates while there is zero chance of them having to pay out on it. It's the perfect insurance scam.

 

[westwall]

New Orleans has spent tens of billions to build up the sea walls and levies.

Do you support this?

New Orleans has had to do this because of the damming of the tributaries of the Mississippi. There is too little silt coming down the river to maintain the delta (a very well known problem BTW) so slowly but surely New Orleans is going to disappear. Further, the Atchafalaya is headward eroding and has already in fact captured the Mississippi, but a structure built by the Army Corps of Engineers has prevented the Mississippi from changing to the new river system.

 

[westwall]

Sorry, Frank, but I think we're done.

Your capitulation is duly recognized.

 

[natstew]

South Florida Adapting Infrastructure to Rising Sea Levels | Popular Science

Updates for climate change resilience may allow communities like Miami Beach to survive the century, but they're costing millions of dollars ...

In South Florida, more frequent and destructive flooding due to climate change has become a serious problem. This March 19 report by the PBS News Hour and WPBT looks at how communities like Miami Beach and Broward County are trying to adapt their physical systems to stand up to the new reality.

The drainage infrastructure on the Florida coast has relied upon gravity to draw rainfall runoff from higher canal levels to lower sea level, according to the report. But warming temperatures are raising sea level too high for these systems to work, by expanding the size of water molecules at the ocean's surface, while also melting glaciers that historically kept much of the world's fresh water locked away from the ocean. Climate change is also causing briefer but torrential rainfalls, creating more runoff than the drainage systems were built to handle all at once.

The first words in the segment, spoken by fishing boat captain and Florida native Dan Kipness, set a pragmatic tone. “Captains are used to looking at the ocean," says Kipness,

If you look at it long enough — and I have had enough time to look at it — you can see small changes turn into big changes over a period of time. You’re going to see water coming out of Biscayne Bay, up the storm sewers, and onto the streets until it’s about a foot deep.

“And that’s not freshwater. That’s saltwater. There’s no rain. There’s not a cloud in the sky.

Video at the link.

We're spending money on the wrong things.

FLA is doomed.

Doubt me?

Try buying HOME OWNERS insurance in FLA.

Florida most expensive in nation for home insurance | News-JournalOnline.com

Florida most expensive in nation for home insurance | News-JournalOnline.com

No hurricanes, but Florida property insurance rate hikes keep coming | HeraldTribune.com

Now I totally understand that right wingers doubt the veractiy of left wingers.

But INSURANCE COMPANIES are hardly run by lefties.

They are bastions of pragmatic thinking designed to measure risk v reward.

Clearly they think FLA is in trouble..

What do they know that the Climate weirding denialists don't?

Florida has the most Tropical Storms of any State in north America. Florida has the longest Coastline of any State in North America. Tropical Storms cause storm surges that flood coastal areas. The coastal areas are the most expensive real estate lands in Florida, and the most frequently flooded.

The real estate and insurance lobbyist are equal opportunity bribers. They bribed politicians in Tallahassee to spread the cost of insurance equally across the population to keep it low for the rich coastal population. It's good for the Real Estate and Insurance business.

Now, can you cipher that? Or do you need a picture.

 

[mamooth]

Cuba

I've told Frank before that's just a drawing someone made on their computer. He apparently still believes it's an actual photo of a sunken city 2000 feet down. Westwall also seems to be a true believer in that sort of underwater UFO cult, given how he's giving kudos to Frank for posting it.

Here's the actual sidescan sonar image, which just shows some squarish rocks, and which is itself subject to processing artifacts. But if you denialists are so sure it's a sunken city, just go hire an expedition and prove it. 2000 feet is easily within the reach of ROV's and deep-diving minisubs. There's a Nobel in it for you, if you can prove that a sunken city is present 2000 feet down.

 

[Old Rocks]

I obviously believe a different prediction than you do. It's the one being made by the experts in the field.

The "experts" who have failed to make an accurate prediction in 30 years. Good one! Give them a few more decades and they'll qualify as the new "Flat Earth" experts!

Here we go again, more lies from Walleyes. What an idiot. Dr. James Hansen's predictions in his 1981 paper are spot on.

http://pubs.giss.nasa.gov/abs/ha04600x.html

Hansen et al. 1981
Hansen, J., D. Johnson, A. Lacis, S. Lebedeff, P. Lee, D. Rind, and G. Russell, 1981: Climate impact of increasing atmospheric carbon dioxide. Science, 213, 957-966, doi:10.1126/science.213.4511.957.

The global temperature rose 0.2°C between the middle 1960s and 1980, yielding a warming of 0.4°C in the past century. This temperature increase is consistent with the calculated effect due to measured increases of atmospheric carbon dioxide. Variations of volcanic aerosols and possibly solar luminosity appear to be primary causes of observed fluctuations about the mean trend of increasing temperature. It is shown that the anthropogenic carbon dioxide warming should emerge from the noise level of natural climate variability by the end of the century, and there is a high probability of warming in the 1980s. Potential effects on climate in the 21st century include the creation of drought-prone regions in North America and central Asia as part of a shifting of climatic zones, erosion of the West Antarctic ice sheet with a consequent worldwide rise in sea level, and opening of the fabled Northwest Passage.

http://pubs.giss.nasa.gov/docs/1981/1981_Hansen_etal_1.pdf

 

[Old Rocks]

The structures off Okinawa and Cuba, in the opinions of archaeologists and geologists that have examined the sites, are that they are geological. The one in Cuba is ridiculously deep to even consider it could be man made. The structure off Okinawa is virtually identical to structures ashore that are known to be natural.

If you want to see a city underwater, try Old Tyre in the Mediterranean or Port Royal, Jamaica. I am not denying that there are formerly coastal structures all over the world. But the only ones I know of that have been submerged solely by rising water would likely be those bronze age dwellings on the ancent shores of the Black Sea when what was formerly a medium large lake was catastrophically flooded by waters pouring through the newly formed Bosporus Straits. Sea levels have simply not risen sufficiently since humans began building durable structures. In some areas, subsidence can add enough change, but it is unlikely that 2 meters over 8,000 years is going to catch anyone unawares.

LOL.

"Japan's Ancient Underwater "Pyramid" Mystifies Scholars
Julian Ryall in Tokyo
for National Geographic News
September 19, 2007"

Japan's Ancient Underwater "Pyramid" Mystifies Scholars

When the evidence refuses to support your theory, real scientists know it time for a new theory; the AGWCult on the other hand, alters, destroys or just plain ignores that evidence.

Oddly enough they look just like the natural formations in the same area that are above water. What an amazing coincidence!

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Sorry, Frank, but I think we're done.

I predict the AGWCult will take a similar tack when asked to present their evidence at the APS. They'll say, "why should we present any evidence, we have consensus! The Science is settled!"

Abe take a look at the picture and tell me again how that's a "Natural formation"

 

[westwall]

I obviously believe a different prediction than you do. It's the one being made by the experts in the field.

The "experts" who have failed to make an accurate prediction in 30 years. Good one! Give them a few more decades and they'll qualify as the new "Flat Earth" experts!

Here we go again, more lies from Walleyes. What an idiot. Dr. James Hansen's predictions in his 1981 paper are spot on.

http://pubs.giss.nasa.gov/abs/ha04600x.html

Hansen et al. 1981
Hansen, J., D. Johnson, A. Lacis, S. Lebedeff, P. Lee, D. Rind, and G. Russell, 1981: Climate impact of increasing atmospheric carbon dioxide. Science, 213, 957-966, doi:10.1126/science.213.4511.957.

The global temperature rose 0.2°C between the middle 1960s and 1980, yielding a warming of 0.4°C in the past century. This temperature increase is consistent with the calculated effect due to measured increases of atmospheric carbon dioxide. Variations of volcanic aerosols and possibly solar luminosity appear to be primary causes of observed fluctuations about the mean trend of increasing temperature. It is shown that the anthropogenic carbon dioxide warming should emerge from the noise level of natural climate variability by the end of the century, and there is a high probability of warming in the 1980s. Potential effects on climate in the 21st century include the creation of drought-prone regions in North America and central Asia as part of a shifting of climatic zones, erosion of the West Antarctic ice sheet with a consequent worldwide rise in sea level, and opening of the fabled Northwest Passage.

http://pubs.giss.nasa.gov/docs/1981/1981_Hansen_etal_1.pdf

Only in the fevered mind of a cult dweller could a 300% error be considered "spot on". You're an imbecile.

 

[westwall]

The structures off Okinawa and Cuba, in the opinions of archaeologists and geologists that have examined the sites, are that they are geological. The one in Cuba is ridiculously deep to even consider it could be man made. The structure off Okinawa is virtually identical to structures ashore that are known to be natural.

If you want to see a city underwater, try Old Tyre in the Mediterranean or Port Royal, Jamaica. I am not denying that there are formerly coastal structures all over the world. But the only ones I know of that have been submerged solely by rising water would likely be those bronze age dwellings on the ancent shores of the Black Sea when what was formerly a medium large lake was catastrophically flooded by waters pouring through the newly formed Bosporus Straits. Sea levels have simply not risen sufficiently since humans began building durable structures. In some areas, subsidence can add enough change, but it is unlikely that 2 meters over 8,000 years is going to catch anyone unawares.

LOL.

"Japan's Ancient Underwater "Pyramid" Mystifies Scholars
Julian Ryall in Tokyo
for National Geographic News
September 19, 2007"

Japan's Ancient Underwater "Pyramid" Mystifies Scholars

When the evidence refuses to support your theory, real scientists know it time for a new theory; the AGWCult on the other hand, alters, destroys or just plain ignores that evidence.

Oddly enough they look just like the natural formations in the same area that are above water. What an amazing coincidence!

Care to link to those. I can't find any.

 

[freedombecki]

And who suggested destroying the world's economy? My point would be that global warming is going to have some SERIOUS impact on us and our economy. Pretending that it isn't happening or that it won't hurt us helps no one save the exceptionally short-sighted.

And who suggested destroying the world's economy?

Nancy Pelosi. She told her Congress to not read a bill, just pass it "so we will know what's in it." They did, and it became the highest tax ever leveled against the Middle Class through Obama's alleged 'affordable' care act.

The truth about Obamacare is that Obama doesn't care if the global economy falls when America's is destroyed by him raising the national debt to well over $17 trillion dollars.

Democrats have this naïve notion that borrowing money that somebody else has to pay back as long as they are protected for life against the people they enslaved to do their pet rock projects done in secrecy behind closed doors and beneath so much white paper nobody has time to fully understand the impact that will be leveled to destroy the world's economy by first destroying America's credibility, dollar, and strength.

Weakening America's economy and military so Putin would be able to roll through the Ukraine was truly a bad idea, too.

 

[freedombecki]

Are those proof that "warming temperatures are raising sea level too high for these systems to work, by expanding the size of water molecules at the ocean's surface"

Ok, dumb fuck, he should have said by increasing the volume the molecule occupies because of the increase in vibration as the molecule has more energy at a higher temperature. However, for anyone with the slightest knowledge of chemistry, what he said is completely clear.

I love it when warmer sources show their complete lack of science.

Yes, but isn't it funny how fuzzy math takes no prisoners.

 

[Abraham3]

And who suggested destroying the world's economy? My point would be that global warming is going to have some SERIOUS impact on us and our economy. Pretending that it isn't happening or that it won't hurt us helps no one save the exceptionally short-sighted.

And who suggested destroying the world's economy?

Nancy Pelosi. She told her Congress to not read a bill, just pass it "so we will know what's in it." They did, and it became the highest tax ever leveled against the Middle Class through Obama's alleged 'affordable' care act.

The truth about Obamacare is that Obama doesn't care if the global economy falls when America's is destroyed by him raising the national debt to well over $17 trillion dollars.

Democrats have this naïve notion that borrowing money that somebody else has to pay back as long as they are protected for life against the people they enslaved to do their pet rock projects done in secrecy behind closed doors and beneath so much white paper nobody has time to fully understand the impact that will be leveled to destroy the world's economy by first destroying America's credibility, dollar, and strength.

Weakening America's economy and military so Putin would be able to roll through the Ukraine was truly a bad idea, too.

This is a forum for the discussion of the Environment, not politics.

 

[westwall]

And who suggested destroying the world's economy? My point would be that global warming is going to have some SERIOUS impact on us and our economy. Pretending that it isn't happening or that it won't hurt us helps no one save the exceptionally short-sighted.

And who suggested destroying the world's economy?

Nancy Pelosi. She told her Congress to not read a bill, just pass it "so we will know what's in it." They did, and it became the highest tax ever leveled against the Middle Class through Obama's alleged 'affordable' care act.

The truth about Obamacare is that Obama doesn't care if the global economy falls when America's is destroyed by him raising the national debt to well over $17 trillion dollars.

Democrats have this naïve notion that borrowing money that somebody else has to pay back as long as they are protected for life against the people they enslaved to do their pet rock projects done in secrecy behind closed doors and beneath so much white paper nobody has time to fully understand the impact that will be leveled to destroy the world's economy by first destroying America's credibility, dollar, and strength.

Weakening America's economy and military so Putin would be able to roll through the Ukraine was truly a bad idea, too.

This is a forum for the discussion of the Environment, not politics.

Becki's post was topical. Sadly, you enviro nazi's have turned environmentalism into a political war.

 

[mamooth]

It's not a coincidence that every single denialist on this thread is a loony right-wing-extremist-cult crackpot. Outside of the kook right fringe in nations dominated by a nutty conservative English-speaking media, denialism essentially doesn't exist.

As I keep pointing out, denialism isn't the cult. Bitter nutball right-wing-extremism is the cult. Denialism is just one of the many crazy mantras that the righty cultists are required to chant. To them, this is entirely about finding reasons to hate liberals. They stink so badly at the science because they actively try to stink at it. Westwall here has enough intelligence to be smart about the topic if he wanted to. Instead, he's devoted all of his intelligence and energy into being stupid about it, because that's what his cult commands.

In contrast, AGW science is non-political, crossing all political boundaries all around the world. Because it's actual science. The denialists will keep trying to make it all about politics, but we rationalists will keep ignoring their deflections. Instead, we'll keep doing what enrages denialists the most, which is talk about the science and the data.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Cuba

I've told Frank before that's just a drawing someone made on their computer. He apparently still believes it's an actual photo of a sunken city 2000 feet down. Westwall also seems to be a true believer in that sort of underwater UFO cult, given how he's giving kudos to Frank for posting it.

Here's the actual sidescan sonar image, which just shows some squarish rocks, and which is itself subject to processing artifacts. But if you denialists are so sure it's a sunken city, just go hire an expedition and prove it. 2000 feet is easily within the reach of ROV's and deep-diving minisubs. There's a Nobel in it for you, if you can prove that a sunken city is present 2000 feet down.

It's a computer enhancement of the sidescan radar.

You keep telling yourself that the superheated ocean (from eating all the non-existent AGW) is causing a lensing effect of normal rocks to get those geometric formations

New Underwater Finds Raise Questions About Flood Myths

"Cuba's Sunken City

Deep in the waters of Cabo de San Antonio, off Cuba's coast, researchers are exploring unusual formations of smooth blocks, crests, and geometric shapes. The Canadian exploration company that discovered the formations, Advanced Digital Communications, has suggested that they could be the buildings and monuments of an early, unknown American civilization.

Many scientists are skeptical of any theory that might tempt people to draw a parallel with the fabled lost city of Atlantis. Geologist Manuel Iturralde, however, has stressed the need for an open mind while investigations of the site continue.

"These are extremely peculiar structures, and they have captured our imagination," said Iturralde, who is director of research at Cuba's Natural History Museum. Iturralde has studied countless underwater formations over the years, but said, "If I had to explain this geologically, I would have a hard time."

In his report on the formations, Iturralde noted that conclusive proof of man-made structures on the site could reinforce some oral traditions of the Maya and native Yucatecos. These people still retell ancient stories of an island inhabited by their ancestors that vanished beneath the waves."

 

[Abraham3]

And who suggested destroying the world's economy?

Nancy Pelosi. She told her Congress to not read a bill, just pass it "so we will know what's in it." They did, and it became the highest tax ever leveled against the Middle Class through Obama's alleged 'affordable' care act.

The truth about Obamacare is that Obama doesn't care if the global economy falls when America's is destroyed by him raising the national debt to well over $17 trillion dollars.

Democrats have this naïve notion that borrowing money that somebody else has to pay back as long as they are protected for life against the people they enslaved to do their pet rock projects done in secrecy behind closed doors and beneath so much white paper nobody has time to fully understand the impact that will be leveled to destroy the world's economy by first destroying America's credibility, dollar, and strength.

Weakening America's economy and military so Putin would be able to roll through the Ukraine was truly a bad idea, too.

This is a forum for the discussion of the Environment, not politics.

Becki's post was topical. Sadly, you enviro nazi's have turned environmentalism into a political war.

It was not topical at all. Obamacare and the invasion of Crimea are not environmental topics.