Zone1 A thread about Jews

[Votto]

There is no original sin or fall of man in Genesis. Its the trail for mans freedom and gods teaching of morals to Adam. There are sins sure but no original sin which is the reason for Jesus to exist.
Adam cant sin before he cant know what a sin is. He had no moral awareness until after he ate the fruit.
It was gods plan that Adam eat from the fruit. You cant sin when you obey gods plan

Disagree.

Adam lost faith in God regarding his warning about the fruit, which is a sin.

It was the first recorded sin and why they were kicked out of the Garden.

Faith is what is counted as righteousness, just as we saw with Abraham.

Such righteousness does not come from us, rather, we simply latch onto it and agree with it.

 

[Votto]

Historians beg to differ.

No historian worth their salt would say such a thing.

Complete idiocy.

 

[Lisa558]

Most historians believe Jesus was a real man, a Jewish carpenter who lived about 2,000 years ago.

About a third of the population believe he was a deity of some type - son of Gd, Gd personified, etc. Most of the world does not.

For some reason, Jews get the brunt of the hate for not believing in Jesus, but we are only a tiny number of people who don’t.

 

[Votto]

Most historians believe Jesus was a real man, a Jewish carpenter who lived about 2,000 years ago.

About a third of the population believe he was a deity of some type - son of Gd, Gd personified, etc. Most of the world does not.

For some reason, Jews get the brunt of the hate for not believing in Jesus, but we are only a tiny number of people who don’t.

I here many atheists say the same thing about Jesus.

What I find interesting is many dispute other historical characters existed like Socrates, but his is probably due to the fact that many of his sayings almost sound like they come from Jesus.

For example, Socrates said that if there ever was a man speaking in a public setting that only spoke the truth, that person would not live long. And like Jesus, they murdered Socrates for his words as well as he refused to recant.

It is hate of the message and not the messenger I think.

As Christ once said, the darkness hates the light which is truth.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

After the diaspora, Jews were scattered around in small enclaves living within other countries. They kept to themselves, adhered to their ways and married among themselves. They were denied the ability to hold many jobs, so concentrated on those they could hold. Those jobs included merchants, bankers, lawyers and physicians. In these positions they excelled due to their high regard for education and accomplishment.

Because they were highly successful and did not interact all that much on a social level with the locals, resentment rose due to the sense of otherness and the envy over their success. Canards developed that they must have earned their success by being sneaky, by being manipulative, by exercising undo power over others and by thinking only of themselves. Those canards exist today, and act like an aphrodisiac to the failures in life who seek an outside shadowy figure to blame for the fact that they are worthless pieces of shit.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Hafar1014
There is no original sin or fall of man in Genesis. Its the trail for mans freedom and gods teaching of morals to Adam. There are sins sure but no original sin which is the reason for Jesus to exist.
Adam cant sin before he cant know what a sin is. He had no moral awareness until after he ate the fruit.
It was gods plan that Adam eat from the fruit. You cant sin when you obey gods plan

The Bible is clear and needs no interpretation. Adam introduced sin and Christ removes it. We know we carry the original sin because we all die. We weren't supposed to and would not if Adam hadn't unleached evil and death.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.

Romans 5:18 Therefore, as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

^ And that is why Jesus is the way to Heaven. He took our sin on the cross and gave us His perfect record to enter Heaven. When you are covered by the blood of the Lamb, you look like Christ to God. You even smell like Christ to God.

2 Corinthians 2:15 For we are to God the sweet aroma of Christ among those who are being saved and those who are perishing.

 

[Hafar1014]

Disagree.

Adam lost faith in God regarding his warning about the fruit, which is a sin.

It was the first recorded sin and why they were kicked out of the Garden.

Faith is what is counted as righteousness, just as we saw with Abraham.

Such righteousness does not come from us, rather, we simply latch onto it and agree with it.

Clearly since you cant understand or read Hebrew you have no idea what it means. Its an allegory Adam and Eve are metaphors. Adam never lost faith in God the opposite occurred.
The explanation by Orthodox Jewish Rabbis who study this all their lives.
God placed the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the center of the garden where Adam would be drawn to it.
God begins the lesson by testing Adams free will and commands him not to eat the fruit. The ultimate test if free will is disobedience and Adam must disobey God for the lesson to continue. Adam eats the fruit and passes the test.

THe lesson has two goals teach Adam morals which must be part of free will and give Adam the freedom to choose on his own to come to God. God didnt make us like ants or bees. We are made in his likeness potentially divine and free. God wants Adam to choose on hi sown behalf based on his new morals to make the right morals choice. This is a test and is called The Trial for mans freedom. At first Adam denies and makes excuses then he eventually asks God to forgive him. He passes the test. HIs new growth(evolution) forces him to outgrow Eden and go into the world to define his meaning.
There is no sin because Adam was obeying Gods plan and before he ate the fruit he couldn't know what a sin even was. You cant sin if you cant know right from wrong.
Christians changed the meaning to suit their new dogma which is all made up

 

[rosends]

Clearly since you cant understand or read Hebrew you have no idea what it means. Its an allegory Adam and Eve are metaphors. Adam never lost faith in God the opposite occurred.
The explanation by Orthodox Jewish Rabbis who study this all their lives.
God placed the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the center of the garden where Adam would be drawn to it.
God begins the lesson by testing Adams free will and commands him not to eat the fruit. The ultimate test if free will is disobedience and Adam must disobey God for the lesson to continue. Adam eats the fruit and passes the test.

THe lesson has two goals teach Adam morals which must be part of free will and give Adam the freedom to choose on his own to come to God. God didnt make us like ants or bees. We are made in his likeness potentially divine and free. God wants Adam to choose on hi sown behalf based on his new morals to make the right morals choice. This is a test and is called The Trial for mans freedom. At first Adam denies and makes excuses then he eventually asks God to forgive him. He passes the test. HIs new growth(evolution) forces him to outgrow Eden and go into the world to define his meaning.
There is no sin because Adam was obeying Gods plan and before he ate the fruit he couldn't know what a sin even was. You cant sin if you cant know right from wrong.
Christians changed the meaning to suit their new dogma which is all made up

can you please post a link to this understanding -- is all that detail in the Rambam somewhere?

 

[Hafar1014]

can you please post a link to this understanding -- is all that detail in the Rambam somewhere?

I learned to read the Pentateuch at 13 in Hebrew.

 

[rosends]

I learned to read the Pentateuch at 13 in Hebrew.

That's nice. But I'd like to read more about what you posted inside the text. Can you please post a link to it or to where I could read it?

 

[schmidlap]

Why have they been soooooooooo hated over the centuries and even today.

Are there multiple reasons or just one underlying one, and are those reasons deserved?

Some simply say things like the Holocaust never happened and disagree with my statement. But what many probably don't know is, everything that happened to them in the Holocaust happened to the Jews in Europe century, after century, after century. That's right, Jews were, on more than one occasion, kicked out of entire countries repeatedly. They stole from the Jews, they put them in ghettos, and made them wear special garb so they could be identified for oppression, and rounded up and murdered time and time again, all before the Holocaust.

Are they the most persecuted people on earth? If not, who has endured more?

What I find the most weird, however, is how the right and left almost seems to come together on their hatred of Jews.

Creepy.

No one gets a moral pass by playing the "Jew" card.

Netanyahu frequently makes claims of antisemitism.​

A protest letter, organised by an influential pro-Israel network, has accused Benjamin Netanyahu of pursuing policies doing “lasting damage” to the Jewish state and calls for him to end the Gaza war and agree a hostage deal.​

https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/influential-pro-israel-group-accuses-netanyahu-of-doing-lasting-damage-to-jewish-state/

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[The Irish Ram]

No historian worth their salt would say such a thing.

Complete idiocy.

Tacitus​

Josephus​

Pliny the Younger​

Suetonius​

Thallus​

Mara Bar-Serapion​

Lucian of Samosata​

Celsus​

Julius Africanus​

Phlegon​

Origen​

Tertullian​

Clement of Rome​

The Chinese wondered about the darkness that was on the land. The History of the Latter Han Dynasty said of it, "The sins of all people are now on one man". Another Chinese record says, "The man from Heaven died".

James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus.

 

[JoeB131]

So, if the Left and Islam get their way, the Jews in Israel will all be thrown into the sea, making it a worse Holocaust than what Hitler inflicted upon them

Or they'll just relocate to Europe and America.

I've always said, if America is so keen on a Jewish State, we should give them one of ours.

 

[JoeB131]

Riddle me this, you mock the notion of God but why is it that the Jews were targeted for persecution during the bubonic plague devastated Europe, because they were not dying at the rate of the rest of society? They were following the Mosaic laws of cleanliness, which is why they had not rats, which is why they did not die. Rumors spread that Jews poisoned wells to kill Christians instead, so they rounded them up and killed them.

And they value the Patriarchal family and education, which is why they kept a written record via the Bible, something rare in the ancient world, all thanks to their God.

What does that have to do with my point about Satan?

 

[JoeB131]

Tacitus​

Josephus​

Pliny the Younger​

Suetonius​

Thallus​

Mara Bar-Serapion​

Lucian of Samosata​

Celsus​

Julius Africanus​

Phlegon​

Origen​

Tertullian​

Clement of Rome​

The Chinese wondered about the darkness that was on the land. The History of the Latter Han Dynasty said of it, "The sins of all people are now on one man". Another Chinese record says, "The man from Heaven died".

View attachment 1145811
James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus.

Okay, all the people you just listed- None of them were contemporary with Jesus.

Some of them were centuries removed from Jesus supposed lifetime. Origen, for instance, was from the third century. That's like saying I am as removed from George Washington as Origen was from Jesus.

Some of these references are questionable. Keep in mind, most of these writings, we don't have the original manuscripts, we have copies of copies that were copied by Christian scribes in the medieval period.

So when you get the reference to Jesus in Tacitus in that Nero blamed Christians for the Great Roman Fire, was that really written by Tacitus, or by a Christian scribe inserting it in there because that's where he thought it belonged?

Here's a good indication of the latter, no reference to the Neroian Persecution is in Suetonius or Dio Cassius, who covered most of the same period of history in their annals.

 

[JoeB131]

Most historians believe Jesus was a real man, a Jewish carpenter who lived about 2,000 years ago.

About a third of the population believe he was a deity of some type - son of Gd, Gd personified, etc. Most of the world does not.

For some reason, Jews get the brunt of the hate for not believing in Jesus, but we are only a tiny number of people who don’t.

Most of the other people who don't believe Jesus did magic tricks weren't part of the group that insisted on his execution.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Okay, all the people you just listed- None of them were contemporary with Jesus.

Some of them were centuries removed from Jesus supposed lifetime. Origen, for instance, was from the third century. That's like saying I am as removed from George Washington as Origen was from Jesus.

Some of these references are questionable. Keep in mind, most of these writings, we don't have the original manuscripts, we have copies of copies that were copied by Christian scribes in the medieval period.

So when you get the reference to Jesus in Tacitus in that Nero blamed Christians for the Great Roman Fire, was that really written by Tacitus, or by a Christian scribe inserting it in there because that's where he thought it belonged?

Here's a good indication of the latter, no reference to the Neroian Persecution is in Suetonius or Dio Cassius, who covered most of the same period of history in their annals.

Do I need to be a contemporary to refer to Julius Caesar?
James was Jesus' brother. Jesus is in the book of Thomas, who was a disciple of His. You just referred to Washington, and I don't think you were a contemporary of Georges.
I was showing this to be incorrect:

Hafar1014 said: Jesus never existed because there is no original sin in Genesis

 

[JoeB131]

Do I need to be a contemporary to refer to Julius Caesar?
James was Jesus' brother. Jesus is in the book of Thomas, who was a disciple of His. You just referred to Washington, and I don't think you were a contemporary of Georges.
I was showing this to be incorrect:

I'm glad you brought that up.

Julius Caesar, like Jesus, was also worshipped as a God.

But we have a lot more attestations to his existence. We know what day he was born, (July 12, 100 BCE) and what day he died (March 15th, 44 BCE). We have statues of him that were created in his own lifetime. We have coins with his picture on them. We have contemporary writers who wrote about him. We have a century of rule by his family (The Julio-Claudian Dynasty, which ended with Nero.)

Now, for the Gospel of Thomas, which is considered apocryphal. No one believes it was written by the Thomas who was a disciple of Jesus. Just like we know the Apostle Matthew didn't write the Gospel of Matthew. (It would be silly, as Matthew heavily cribbed from Mark) We know, in fact, that most of these Gospels were written at best 50 years after the "death" Of Jesus and perhaps as much as 100 years later or more.

We also know that these Gospels (Not only the four canonical ones, but the dozens of others) contradict themselves on many key points, get things wrong, can't agree on a coherent timeline for Jesus' life.

I'll give you just one example

Matthew says Jesus was born in Bethlehem, but his family had to flee to Egypt to avoid Herod's decree to kill all the infants. (An incident that no other Gospel writer or historian mentions.) After Herod's death, Joseph and Mary settle in Nazareth in Galilee.

Luke says that Joseph and Mary lived in Galilee, but because Caesar Augustus declared a census for the whole world, all people were required to return to the towns of their ancestors. It mentions this happened when Cyraneus (Quirinius) was governor in Syria.

Now for the mind-bending part. Herod died in 4 BCE. Cyraneus didn't become governor of Syria until 6 AD. (Rome didn't officially annex Iudea until 6 AD, after Herod's son proved to be incompetent to rule.)

So now you have a TEN-YEAR gap between when Jesus was born, according to the bible.

They both can't be right.

 

[Andrew_Jackson_FTW]

All I know is, kids at your local universities are not singing "gas the Blacks" or "gas the gays". They are singing "Gas the Jews" and the Left does nothing about it.

Looks like equity and inclusion took a vacation when it comes to the Jews, and no, there is no mention of the Zionist state when they say such things.

Mark my words, the Left and Islam together will not rest until the Zionist state is a heap of ruins as they indiscriminately persecute Jews in other countries along the way.

This is a different topic from the history of how Jews were treated in Europe. Israel is not the same thing as treatment of Jews. How somebody feels about the policies of Israel does not correlate with hating Jews. Likewise, if somebody is critical of the policies of Saudi Arabia, it doesn’t mean they hate all Muslims.


But still, I suppose in line with a thread. But now we’re going to a different era the modern era. Well there are some right wingers who openly hate Jews, think of the Neo Nazis. There is racism against blacks, there is racism against whites. Let’s not go down the BLM cancel culture Road though of confusing this type of small amount of racism with some kind of a systemic issue. I feel it is fair to say that overwhelmingly the American people whether on the left or right are not racist. That’s my position there.

There is no way Israel will be destroyed btw. They are no longer “surrounded by enemies”. because you know Israel got intelligence from Saudi Arabia to use against Iran, for example. Their biggest enemy is Iran and their allies in Lebanon and Yemen. To that point Most of the leadership of Hezbollah has been destroyed. Israel has destroyed many of the Iranian leaders.

American citizens on both the right and left do not want to send taxpayer dollars to Israel for a number of reasons. We have homelessness in America. A lot of it is because of what people say are heinous war crimes by the IDF. A lot of US military personnel have pointed out the blatant difference between the Israeli occupation of Gaza compared to the American occupation of Ra. You could even take it from Israeli politicians who want to conquer Gaza in their own words. They want more settlements for Jews that was not the mission of the American military in Iraq. Our mission was to remove Saddam Hussein and help the Iraqi people. Build schools in Iraq. I think Israel is doing a horrible job when it comes to the media, but maybe that’s on purpose again. It really seems like there’s a lot of people in power in Israel who simply wanna conquer Gaza and fill it with Jewish settlers. That’s their own decision , but they’re gonna get criticized from people around the world.

Gaza unlike say Ukraine has no ability to defend itself. This is not a war in Gaza. It’s a bloodbath. Unlike with Ukraine, they actually have tanks. They have sophisticated military weaponry. There is no occupation of Israel. There is no Palestinian tanks on the ground in Tel Aviv. It’s very one-sided

the whole antisemitism thing is over blown. Many of the pro Palestine protests on college campus in the US are being led by Jews. Might there be a few people chanting bad things about Jews??? perhaps. But it’s definitely overblown and it is sort of become wokeism on the pro Israel side complaining about antisemitism.

my position is it’s a bad tactic to complain about Israel being insulted on college campuses., .. again if there are a few people or even a group of people saying bad things about Jews, it does not correlate into some kind of antisemitism problem. There has been one Palestinian American boy murdered by some fanatical pro-Israel guy right after October 7. There has also been some violence against Jews in America, but that’s gone both ways. It does not correlate into some kind of a systemic racism or bigotry against Muslims or Jews in America.

especially when we openly have Jewish supremacists in Israel with military power.
Forget about some pot smoking hippies on college campuses protesting Israel. They’re not anti-Semitic by the way they’re protesting Israel sometimes harshly but They don’t have any kind of power to do anything military. On the other hand in Gaza , you have 50,000 dead Palestinians because of the IDF. And an evil military campaign by the IDF, according to American soldiers who have blown the whistle on the situation in Gaza when it comes to the food distribution site. …. It’s like nothing we have ever seen. That is what a Green Beret Anthony Aguilar for example had to say ….he blew the whistle on the food distribution operation in Gaza. He said he has seen crimes by the IDF and he has even had IDF soldiers tell him of crimes by the IDF.

 

[Andrew_Jackson_FTW]

But forget about the whistleblower, forget about the college campus protests. It is blatantly obvious the IDF campaign in Gaza is different from the American occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan. Here in 2024 the IDF is not the “most humane military around”. That is total bullshit.

Usually, they always talk about October 7 and Hamas. But completely ignore or downplay the many Jews in Israel, who believe rogue officials in the Israel government allowed the attack to happen. I mean, it’s the most monitored area of the world with basically a few miles between Gaza and Israel…. it makes no sense that attack was allowed to go on for as long as it did.


The Israel mission in Gaza is different btw compared to the American occupation of Iraq for example ….Especially when you have Jews in Israel saying they want to conquer Gaza and fill it up with Jewish settlers. The food distribution operation in Gaza is a disaster. You got pro IDF people bitching and moaning like little babies that

“we’re feeding our enemy no one else does this”

Well what the … these people all along are saying their enemy is not Palestinians but it’s Hamas. So which one is it???? Again remember when America invaded Iraq, the mission was to help the Iraqi people and remove Saddam Hussein and the Ba’ath party. The Israel government is full of shit. Their government is led by Jewish supremacists. They are despised all over the world by right wingers by left-wingers. It is their fault. But yes, Israel ain’t going anywhere. They are a nuclear power. The only question is how history will record them, and this is a dark chapter in the history of Israel. Especially when you have an ex Prime Minister of Israel, calling Netanyahu a war criminal. Thousands of scholars and educators from the left and right wing in Israel saying that this is a genocide in Gaza.