A Serious Question for Liberals - Tax Rates

[Ravi]

The one's who pay ZERO federal income taxes are the predators.

Like you? And Mitt Romney?

False. Mitt Romney probably paid more in taxes last year than you've made in 10 years.

Spreading lies only makes you sound more uninformed.

You don't pay income tax when you aren't gainfully employed, moron. Mitten is in a special class, he pays only 15% or lower depending on how he structures his earnings.

Dismissed.

 

[Sallow]

20% of the wealthiest Americans are already paying 70% of all federal taxes. What burden are you talking about?

They are also taking 40% of the nation's wealth at a huge cost to the rest of us.

If tax rates were so burdensome..you wouldn't have a record number (world record) of Billionaires in this country.

It's obvious they aren't being equitable.

Again, how are they "taking" anything?

Lower tax rates simply mean they're keeping more of what they earn. None of that is owed to anybody. If the other 80% want more money they should work for it. Not complain about how the rich "steal" from them. That mentality won't get anyone anywhere.

We should be helping people get to where the 20% are, not teach them to live off the wealthy.

What the heck you mean, how?

Where have you been?

First off, defense contracts.

Second off, the bailouts, TARP/Auto Industry/Banks.

Third off, a plethora of "pork" and corporate welfare.

Along with the Bush tax cuts and many other goodies, such as overtime rule changes, multiple tax loopholes, grants, contracts and loans...

And if that weren't enough, government assisted off and near shoring.

How is it you do not see this?

 

[tooAlive]

Like you? And Mitt Romney?

False. Mitt Romney probably paid more in taxes last year than you've made in 10 years.

Spreading lies only makes you sound more uninformed.

You don't pay income tax when you aren't gainfully employed, moron. Mitten is in a special class, he pays only 15% or lower depending on how he structures his earnings.

Dismissed.

I edited my post.

Mitt Romney paid about $3 million last year in taxes. How much have you paid?

 

[tooAlive]

They are also taking 40% of the nation's wealth at a huge cost to the rest of us.

If tax rates were so burdensome..you wouldn't have a record number (world record) of Billionaires in this country.

It's obvious they aren't being equitable.

Again, how are they "taking" anything?

Lower tax rates simply mean they're keeping more of what they earn. None of that is owed to anybody. If the other 80% want more money they should work for it. Not complain about how the rich "steal" from them. That mentality won't get anyone anywhere.

We should be helping people get to where the 20% are, not teach them to live off the wealthy.

What the heck you mean, how?

Where have you been?

First off, defense contracts.

Second off, the bailouts, TARP/Auto Industry/Banks.

Third off, a plethora of "pork" and corporate welfare.

Along with the Bush tax cuts and many other goodies, such as overtime rule changes, multiple tax loopholes, grants, contracts and loans...

And if that weren't enough, government assisted off and near shoring.

How is it you do not see this?

I'm not in favor of the bailouts either, I'll give you that one.

But everything else? Tax loopholes aren't "gifts" to corporations. They're just ways they can keep more of what they make. They're not stealing from anyone.

And the Bush Tax cuts? Those benefit the poor and middle class more so than the rich.

 

[Sallow]

False. Mitt Romney probably paid more in taxes last year than you've made in 10 years.

Spreading lies only makes you sound more uninformed.

You don't pay income tax when you aren't gainfully employed, moron. Mitten is in a special class, he pays only 15% or lower depending on how he structures his earnings.

Dismissed.

I edited my post.

Mitt Romney paid about $3 million last year in taxes. How much have you paid?

And how is it that Romney makes SO MUCH MONEY that he pays that much in taxes without being employed? Or running anything?

 

[tooAlive]

Like you? And Mitt Romney?

False. Mitt Romney probably paid more in taxes last year than you've made in 10 years.

Spreading lies only makes you sound more uninformed.

You don't pay income tax when you aren't gainfully employed, moron. Mitten is in a special class, he pays only 15% or lower depending on how he structures his earnings.

Dismissed.

Oh, you want to talk about income taxes now?

10% of wealthiest Americans pay 70% of all income taxes in the country. Even more lopsided.

 

[tooAlive]

You don't pay income tax when you aren't gainfully employed, moron. Mitten is in a special class, he pays only 15% or lower depending on how he structures his earnings.

Dismissed.

I edited my post.

Mitt Romney paid about $3 million last year in taxes. How much have you paid?

And how is it that Romney makes SO MUCH MONEY that he pays that much in taxes without being employed? Or running anything?

You tell me. Here's his tax return.

Mitt Romney Taxes: 2011 Returns Released (FILES)

 

[Sallow]

Again, how are they "taking" anything?

Lower tax rates simply mean they're keeping more of what they earn. None of that is owed to anybody. If the other 80% want more money they should work for it. Not complain about how the rich "steal" from them. That mentality won't get anyone anywhere.

We should be helping people get to where the 20% are, not teach them to live off the wealthy.

What the heck you mean, how?

Where have you been?

First off, defense contracts.

Second off, the bailouts, TARP/Auto Industry/Banks.

Third off, a plethora of "pork" and corporate welfare.

Along with the Bush tax cuts and many other goodies, such as overtime rule changes, multiple tax loopholes, grants, contracts and loans...

And if that weren't enough, government assisted off and near shoring.

How is it you do not see this?

I'm not in favor of the bailouts either, I'll give you that one.

But everything else? Tax loopholes aren't "gifts" to corporations. They're just ways they can keep more of what they make. They're not stealing from anyone.

And the Bush Tax cuts? Those benefit the poor and middle class more so than the rich.

Seriously.

You need to re-examine how most major corporations are making their money.

Most of them have FAT government contracts. Meaning that your tax money is going to them.

Who's building the missiles the US uses? Oh yeah..that's a privately owned firm, Raytheon. How about the planes? General Dynamics, Boeing or Grumman.

Walk into a government office. Look on their computers. What OS do you see?

Microsoft windows.

Look at police cars. Who's making them? Oh yeah..FORD and GM.

Ask government employees where they have their 401ks? Ducats to doughnuts..its with Vanguard or some other big outfit.

That's your money and my money filling the pockets of the fat cats.

 

[tooAlive]

What the heck you mean, how?

Where have you been?

First off, defense contracts.

Second off, the bailouts, TARP/Auto Industry/Banks.

Third off, a plethora of "pork" and corporate welfare.

Along with the Bush tax cuts and many other goodies, such as overtime rule changes, multiple tax loopholes, grants, contracts and loans...

And if that weren't enough, government assisted off and near shoring.

How is it you do not see this?

I'm not in favor of the bailouts either, I'll give you that one.

But everything else? Tax loopholes aren't "gifts" to corporations. They're just ways they can keep more of what they make. They're not stealing from anyone.

And the Bush Tax cuts? Those benefit the poor and middle class more so than the rich.

Seriously.

You need to re-examine how most major corporations are making their money.

Most of them have FAT government contracts. Meaning that your tax money is going to them.

Who's building the missiles the US uses? Oh yeah..that's a privately owned firm, Raytheon. How about the planes? General Dynamics, Boeing or Grumman.

Walk into a government office. Look on their computers. What OS do you see?

Microsoft windows.

Look at police cars. Who's making them? Oh yeah..FORD and GM.

Ask government employees where they have their 401ks? Ducats to doughnuts..its with Vanguard or some other big outfit.

That's your money and my money filling the pockets of the fat cats.

Okay, that's definitely an interesting way of looking at it. I see where you're coming from.

The way I see it, we pay taxes to improve the country and the quality of life here. If some of these big corporations are providing the services that contribute to that vision, then why shouldn't they take in a profit for doing so?

I don't see how they're stealing from us. We're all ultimately benefiting from them one way or another.

Whether it be from a more efficient government, more security, or even more workers employed at those private companies to meet the demand of the government.

Still, you made a great point and I get what you're trying to say. I just see it a little differently.

 

[KissMy]

Again, how are they "taking" anything?

Lower tax rates simply mean they're keeping more of what they earn. None of that is owed to anybody. If the other 80% want more money they should work for it. Not complain about how the rich "steal" from them. That mentality won't get anyone anywhere.

We should be helping people get to where the 20% are, not teach them to live off the wealthy.

That's funny - When Ethanol was being sold at a lower tax rate per gallon than gasoline, it was called an "Ethanol Subsidy".

It's about time we finally stopped subsidizing the Rich!!!

 

[akelch]

I have stopped debating the current tax system....it's pointless.
Switch the debate to a real solution.

The solution is easy. Switch the dividend rate back above the earnings rate, get rid of all deductions including charities, offshore accounts, close loopholes & ENFORCE the tax rate on the rich.

Currently the rich use the tax code to prey upon the rest of us stripping us of our earnings. Unless they ACTUALLY pay a higher percent than us, they are preying on us. This country went to hell when the dividend tax rate was cut & the rich were allowed to evade more taxes.

The rich have used the tax code to steal all the wealth we have created.

Mitt Romney paid lower tax rates than people in poverty pay. He never donated a dime. His "charitable donations" are a tax shelters that allowed him to avoid all taxes & lawsuits. He is preying on charities along with stealing pension funds from workers. His supporters are stupid pawns who will never even be able to understand how charitable remainder trust & carried interest work. Or how they use the dividend tax loopholes to avoid paying taxes on real earnings.

There is not enough time in the day to educate all the stupid voters in this country in the ways all the tax accountants hired by the rich screw us. The rich use money to hire us to screw ourselves. In Romney's case he used our money to hire us to screw ourselves.

Many of us know how this is done. It's just that we are not crewel & greedy enough to actually screw our fellow citizens like the rich do.

Again.....HR 25 consumption tax.

 

[Sallow]

I'm not in favor of the bailouts either, I'll give you that one.

But everything else? Tax loopholes aren't "gifts" to corporations. They're just ways they can keep more of what they make. They're not stealing from anyone.

And the Bush Tax cuts? Those benefit the poor and middle class more so than the rich.

Seriously.

You need to re-examine how most major corporations are making their money.

Most of them have FAT government contracts. Meaning that your tax money is going to them.

Who's building the missiles the US uses? Oh yeah..that's a privately owned firm, Raytheon. How about the planes? General Dynamics, Boeing or Grumman.

Walk into a government office. Look on their computers. What OS do you see?

Microsoft windows.

Look at police cars. Who's making them? Oh yeah..FORD and GM.

Ask government employees where they have their 401ks? Ducats to doughnuts..its with Vanguard or some other big outfit.

That's your money and my money filling the pockets of the fat cats.

Okay, that's definitely an interesting way of looking at it. I see where you're coming from.

The way I see it, we pay taxes to improve the country and the quality of life here. If some of these big corporations are providing the services that contribute to that vision, then why shouldn't they take in a profit for doing so?

I don't see how they're stealing from us. We're all ultimately benefiting from them one way or another.

Whether it be from a more efficient government, more security, or even more workers employed at those private companies to meet the demand of the government.

Still, you made a great point and I get what you're trying to say. I just see it a little differently.

If you go a little further you'll see that very little responsibility comes with those contracts. Take the joint strike fighter, for example. 300 or billion or so spent and no plane.

Personally? I think it's a good system overall to have the government go to private industry for goods and services. But there are plenty of flaws.

And those flaws won't get addressed if the opposing party continues to obfuscate issues.

And just make stuff up. One glaring one being that government spending doesn't create jobs.

It does..and in a very major way.

Another being that tax cuts create jobs. They really don't. And might even do the opposite because of the reason I posted above.

The government is a big consumer. We are a consumer driven society. And the government needs revenue to consume.

 

[Oldstyle]

We do not need a high marginal rate that encourages the rich to skirt paying taxes. We must have tax enforcement on the rich. The rich must actually pay a larger rate than the poor & middle class or they are benefiting from the tax system & burdening the rest of us.

How exactly are the rich "burdening" the poor who pay no Federal income tax at all while they collect the bulk of entitlement payouts? It's an interesting concept...

 

[Sallow]

We do not need a high marginal rate that encourages the rich to skirt paying taxes. We must have tax enforcement on the rich. The rich must actually pay a larger rate than the poor & middle class or they are benefiting from the tax system & burdening the rest of us.

How exactly are the rich "burdening" the poor who pay no Federal income tax at all while they collect the bulk of entitlement payouts? It's an interesting concept...

Most of the poor..are working poor.

The "rich" barely pay minimum wage for maximum work. And they've been doing that in the wake of massive tax cuts.

Not making enough to buy essentials..is a big burden.

 

[Jarhead]

We do not need a high marginal rate that encourages the rich to skirt paying taxes. We must have tax enforcement on the rich. The rich must actually pay a larger rate than the poor & middle class or they are benefiting from the tax system & burdening the rest of us.

How exactly are the rich "burdening" the poor who pay no Federal income tax at all while they collect the bulk of entitlement payouts? It's an interesting concept...

Most of the poor..are working poor.

The "rich" barely pay minimum wage for maximum work. And they've been doing that in the wake of massive tax cuts.

Not making enough to buy essentials..is a big burden.

the problem is people such as yourself say things such as "The "rich" barely pay minimum wage for maximum work" wiothout really qualifying what you are saying.

For example.....years ago, a switchboard operator had to handle dozens of calls a minute and route them properly without error. It was demanding on the mind; not to mention thge importance of not making mistakes.

Nowadays....a receptionist answers ONLY overflow calls thanks to voice mail...and if you are in business, as I used to be...you would sit in a reception area watching her/him text; read magazines, etc. Not knocking it....they have plenty of time...but iot is what it is.

So what should you pay someone to do that? $20 an hour? Why?

Take a machinist. Years ago, they used to have a true craft. They would have to cut pieces of copper and brass to the right size (to the millimeter) using a manual lathe...and they were paid whatever for their skill. Nowadays, all machine shops are CNC (computerized) and all the machinists need to do is insert the stock and watch the machine do the rest. No skill...no talent...no pride in their work.

So what do you pay them to life a 12 foot bar of brass and insert it into a machine 20 times a day? $20 an hour?

I am not saying they dont WANT to work hard..and I am not saying they dont PREFER to work hard.......what I am saying is that technology that copsts the business owner lots of money has actually made difficult jobs easy for anyone to do.

Dont blame the business owners. Blame technology.

 

[KissMy]

Facts from the IRS: From 2001 to 2007 the people with the highest income got the biggest percentage cuts in their actual tax payments. The middle class had to subsidize the rich even more than before. It is time to end the tax subsidy to the rich. The middle class is tired of carrying your fat ass.

 

[Oldstyle]

We do not need a high marginal rate that encourages the rich to skirt paying taxes. We must have tax enforcement on the rich. The rich must actually pay a larger rate than the poor & middle class or they are benefiting from the tax system & burdening the rest of us.

How exactly are the rich "burdening" the poor who pay no Federal income tax at all while they collect the bulk of entitlement payouts? It's an interesting concept...

Most of the poor..are working poor.

The "rich" barely pay minimum wage for maximum work. And they've been doing that in the wake of massive tax cuts.

Not making enough to buy essentials..is a big burden.

So who is to blame for the cost of those essentials going through the roof, Sallow? We've done five YEARS of "quantitative easing" now...with the Fed printing dollars at an unprecedented rate to try and keep our economy from going in the tank while Barry tries to figure out how to do his job. Every time you print more money it makes the money in your pocket worth less. The cost of food is up...the cost of health care is up...the cost of gas is up...the cost of practically everything is up...and not just a little. But you blame that on employers? I suppose your "solution" is to keep raising the minimum wage? People like you never cease to amaze me.

 

[Sallow]

How exactly are the rich "burdening" the poor who pay no Federal income tax at all while they collect the bulk of entitlement payouts? It's an interesting concept...

Most of the poor..are working poor.

The "rich" barely pay minimum wage for maximum work. And they've been doing that in the wake of massive tax cuts.

Not making enough to buy essentials..is a big burden.

the problem is people such as yourself say things such as "The "rich" barely pay minimum wage for maximum work" wiothout really qualifying what you are saying.

For example.....years ago, a switchboard operator had to handle dozens of calls a minute and route them properly without error. It was demanding on the mind; not to mention thge importance of not making mistakes.

Nowadays....a receptionist answers ONLY overflow calls thanks to voice mail...and if you are in business, as I used to be...you would sit in a reception area watching her/him text; read magazines, etc. Not knocking it....they have plenty of time...but iot is what it is.

So what should you pay someone to do that? $20 an hour? Why?

Take a machinist. Years ago, they used to have a true craft. They would have to cut pieces of copper and brass to the right size (to the millimeter) using a manual lathe...and they were paid whatever for their skill. Nowadays, all machine shops are CNC (computerized) and all the machinists need to do is insert the stock and watch the machine do the rest. No skill...no talent...no pride in their work.

So what do you pay them to life a 12 foot bar of brass and insert it into a machine 20 times a day? $20 an hour?

I am not saying they dont WANT to work hard..and I am not saying they dont PREFER to work hard.......what I am saying is that technology that copsts the business owner lots of money has actually made difficult jobs easy for anyone to do.

Dont blame the business owners. Blame technology.

You want "qualification"?

I worked for the NYSE for 13.5 years..and each year I got a stellar review.

I made a six figure salary, which was nice..but I busted my hump for each and every penny. I worked nights, weekends, over night..put in tons of overtime, helped to develop an application that rakes in around 40 million dollars a year..and helped build various NOCs, RNOCs and data repositories. My last year I worked 16 hours a day 6 days a week building a data center and got around a 9 grand bonus for that.

On the other hand..the newly hired CEO who LOST market share and oversaw a DECLINE in the stock price made some 10 million a year in overall compensation. 3 years on the job.

That qualify it enough?

 

[Jarhead]

Facts from the IRS: From 2001 to 2007 the people with the highest income got the biggest percentage cuts in their actual tax payments. The middle class had to subsidize the rich even more than before. It is time to end the tax subsidy to the rich. The middle class is tired of carrying your fat ass.

stats that dont tell the whole story.

using arbitrary numbers....

20% of 5 million is 1million

30% of 70K is 21,000

No matter how you slice it, the guy that makes 5 million is paying 50 times in taxes than what the person making 70K is paying.

And they both use roads, they both use the police and they both cross tunnels....but likely, the one earning 70K is getting more entitlements than the one making 5 Million.....not to mention the fact that the one making 70K is likely employed thanks to the one making 5 million...

So your premise is completely flawed....not to mention a grossly selfish premise as well.

 

[Sallow]

How exactly are the rich "burdening" the poor who pay no Federal income tax at all while they collect the bulk of entitlement payouts? It's an interesting concept...

Most of the poor..are working poor.

The "rich" barely pay minimum wage for maximum work. And they've been doing that in the wake of massive tax cuts.

Not making enough to buy essentials..is a big burden.

So who is to blame for the cost of those essentials going through the roof, Sallow? We've done five YEARS of "quantitative easing" now...with the Fed printing dollars at an unprecedented rate to try and keep our economy from going in the tank while Barry tries to figure out how to do his job. Every time you print more money it makes the money in your pocket worth less. The cost of food is up...the cost of health care is up...the cost of gas is up...the cost of practically everything is up...and not just a little. But you blame that on employers? I suppose your "solution" is to keep raising the minimum wage? People like you never cease to amaze me.

When you have a rift in employer to executive compensation of like 400:1..there's a problem.

The solution SHOULD be that employers pay their employees enough to survive without government assistance.