rightwinger
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- Aug 4, 2009
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name a lie
A Quick and Clear Summation of the Situation in Ukraine.
- Thread starter WelfareQueen
- Start date
Ringo
Gold Member
Zelensky said that he was not ready for concessions and agreed only to a “decent peace”.
No, Volodya, you still don't understand. You had a decent peace in 2022 in Istanbul, and now only an undignified one.
No, Volodya, you still don't understand. You had a decent peace in 2022 in Istanbul, and now only an undignified one.
Cougarbear
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- Jan 29, 2022
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AntonToo
Diamond Member
- Jun 13, 2016
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Quote him bullshit peddler.
AntonToo
Diamond Member
- Jun 13, 2016
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Biden aproach was to send millitary support for Ukraine's defense.
Trump has now halted millitary aid.
In what way is it same? You don't sound sane.
- Sep 9, 2022
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Russia has paid a price. Trump talks as if he has let Putin off the hook. But has he? This will take more time to figure out.
- Sep 9, 2022
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We can hit each other in the mouth going your way. I have said Biden sent help. SLOWLY. We all remember Zelensky showing up at our Congress begging for more help. Biden slow walked it. You want to insult? Do it in a different thread.
AntonToo
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What help did Trump send to Ukraine? "Slowly" or otherwise?
Your mind is failing you, because the answer is very simple - he has so far sent exactly nothing and has halted all assitance.
All he has to show for his presdency on Ukraine is a public fight with Ukraine's president and an administration that can no longer state that Russia invaded Ukraine.
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- Sep 9, 2022
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It took him over 2 years to send Tanks. Biden never did supply him with good fighter jets. War is not among boy scouts.
- Sep 9, 2022
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Trump has only days back stopped sending help to Ukraine. Biden pricked off for over 2 years just to send tanks and I don't think he ever send F16s to Zelensky.
AntonToo
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Trump is doing even worse, whats your point?
AntonToo
Diamond Member
- Jun 13, 2016
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Biden warned Putin that he will arm Ukraine and did so soon as the war broke out. This while rightwingers were calling him a warmonger who will take us into WW3 with Russia.
Trump got into office and has now stopped aid to Ukraine.
Those are the facts, and you should really ask yourself why you can't deal with facts.
- Sep 9, 2022
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What did Biden give to Zelensky when Zelensky got invaded by Putin? Why did Zelensky keep begging the USA for help, including begging Congress? Biden was no saint. Zelensky is why Trump stopped the aid. Zelensky wanted to pick a fight.
Ringo
Gold Member
Get lost, stinking faggot.
AntonToo
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Immedeately implemented:
anti-armor missiles
small arms
body armor
various munitions
anti-aircraft systems
intelligence support
sanctions on Russia including cancelation of Norstream II
Trump gave to Ukraine - NOTHING
- Sep 9, 2022
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Have you ever been in combat? America when it enters war, it used Fighter planes, ships, very long range armor, and has skills learned by combat.
According to your list, Zelesky never had to beg Biden and Congress for anything. But you know for a fact he showed up in the USA begging us for help. Had Obama stopped Putin from taking Crimea, it would have taught Putin to stay out of war.
Biden was not mentally competent. But all you think of is Trump. Trump openly said his goal is not to help war, but to stop war.
- Sep 16, 2012
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The Budapest agreement became no longer relevant at the point the west violated it first;
"1. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the Final Act of the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe, to respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine;"
Except we are a signatory of the Bucharest Memorandum.
Budapest Memorandum - Wikipedia
en.m.wikipedia.org
Now Russia violated that agreement. I’m reminded of 1914 when Germany invaded Belgium despite a treaty to never do so. When Britain declared War the German Foreign Minister asked. War? Over a piece of paper?
The paper was a solemn promise. An oath that the signatories would not break that peace.
The Memorandum isn’t the level of a treaty. I am well aware of that. But isn’t your word supposed to be good? Isn’t your word as a man, or a nation, supposed to be honored?
If...
You have a false reading of the Budapest Memorandum.
There is a reason they make that so hard to find. . . because of western ruling elite's spin masters have. . . well, not upheld their end. Hell, you don't even need to dig on that count, you can read that in point one of the memorandum.
The western foundations, and the clandestine intel. agencies working to make a coup in Ukraine, were a violation of Memorandum. I have already posted about the western powers meddling in Ukraine's internal politics.
We all know about the Nuland call. Or you should, you should have even seen her handing out cookies and John McCain giving a speech to them. C'mon, all that make this memorandum a joke to the eyes of the west. Hypocrisy much?
REMEMBER! Key here. . . is the Final Act of the Conference on Security and Co-operation in Europe. Likewise, the western intelligence and pro-democracy foundations, interfered with Ukrainian civil society. . .
No one can ever actually produce a copy of the Budapest Memorandum. Only claims that security assurances are guaranteed. I maintain that comes with some caveats. Why?
Because the closest outline of that Memorandum I have yet dug up? Is this. . .
(But now I notice, someone on the wiki, since last I checked, has found a link. . .interesting.
Primary Sources
Budapest Memorandums on Security Assurances, 1994
Budapest Memorandums on Security Assurances, 1994
The Presidents of Ukraine, Russian Federation and United States of America, and the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom signed three memorandums (UN Document A/49/765) on December 5, 1994, with the accession of Ukraine to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons. Through this...
web.archive.org
"Excerpt:
"Welcoming the accession of Ukraine to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons as a non-nuclear-weapon State,
Taking into account the commitment of Ukraine to eliminate all nuclear weapons from its territory within a specified period of time,
Noting the changes in the world-wide security situation, including the end of the cold war, which have brought about conditions for deep reductions in nuclear forces,
Confirm the following:
1. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the Final Act of the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe, to respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine;
2. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine, and that none of their weapons will ever be used against Ukraine except in self-defence or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations;
3. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the Final Act of the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe, to refrain from economic coercion designed to subordinate to their own interest the exercise by Ukraine of the rights inherent in its sovereignty and thus to secure advantages of any kind;
4. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to seek immediate United Nations Security Council action to provide assistance to Ukraine, as a non-nuclear-weapon State party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, if Ukraine should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used;
5. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm, in the case of Ukraine, their commitment not to use nuclear weapons against any non-nuclear weapon State party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, except in the case of an attack on themselves, their territories or dependent territories, their armed forces, or their allies, by such a State in association or alliance with a nuclear-weapon State;
6. Ukraine, the Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America will consult in the event a situation arises that raises a question concerning these commitments.
This Memorandum will become applicable upon signature.
Signed in four copies having equal validity in the Ukrainian, English and Russian languages."
(But now I notice, someone on the wiki, since last I checked, has found a link. . .interesting, Thank you!
Wayback Machine )
That makes no such guarantee of security in case of invasion, only it refers to using the following, which I maintain, is exactly the OPPOSITE, of escalating violent confrontation.
Source: Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars 1
Final Act of the Conference on Security and Co-operation in Europe
". . . Accordingly, the participating States will refrain from any acts constituting a threat of force or
direct or indirect use of force against another participating State. Likewise they will refrain from
any manifestation of force for the purpose of inducing another participating State to renounce the
full exercise of its sovereign rights. Likewise they will also refrain in their mutual relations from
any act of reprisal by force.
No such threat or use of force will be employed as a means of settling disputes, or questions
likely to give rise to disputes, between them.. . . "
. . . now? If there had not been the violation by the west in the 2014 coup? And if the Final Act of the Conference on Security and Co-operation in Europe were still in force?
I am in definite agreement with you, that the Russian Federation violated the Budapest Memorandum, of this? There can be no doubt.
OTH? I do not believe this, in anyway obligates an escalation of European conflict, by pitting nuclear armed powers against each other. Given the historical experience of European interlocking alliances through WWI, & WWII, and that Russia even signed the Budapest Memorandum. . . if you go back and watch the press conference with U.S. President Clinton, and Ukraine President Leonid Kravchuk upon completion of these negotiations, you see how President Clinton dodges the question about any guarantee of providing security against any future Russian imperial designs on Crimea.
So? What are we to make of THAT? Either the west had this nefarious agenda in mind from the start, as hold over from operation Gladio . . . or??????
Time stamp: 23:11 for the question if you do not want to listen to the whole conference.
President Clinton's News Conference w/ Pres. Kravchuk (1994)
I've heard, a few times, folks refer to this memorandum. . . which has, in fact frustrated the Russians, because, time and time again, the west has meddled.
For instance. . .. EXAMPLE
AntonToo
Diamond Member
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I can think of Biden.
I can think of Trump.
I can contrast what the two have done for Ukraine.
You can't, thats the difference.
As far as ending war - Trump can say and goal whatever the fuck he wants, but as long as Putin has hope to get control of Ukraine this war will not end. Trump's actual contribution so far is to feed Putin that hope and to prolong the war.
- Sep 9, 2022
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It is not about me. Try to keep that in mind. Why has the war lasted 3 years? Can you blame that on Trump?
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