A question for the anti-abortionists?

[Maryland Patriot]

Obviously, those who claim to believe abortion is murder do not act as if they did. Otherwise, they would physically go and occupy all abortion clinics in order to stop them. They would offer to pay women to bear the child and then support it.
Making it a ward of the state is obviously involving government where it doesn't belong. Religions and their believers should be doing this, as it is part of their belief.

typical liberal, always expecting that its someone elses obligation to take care of their lack of responsibility. Did the thought ever cross your mind that just maybe the people that produced the child should be held responsible for the costs associated with raising that child?
alien concept I'm sure.

 

[mikegriffith1]

I'm pretty sure if you hire someone to murder someone, you're as liable as they are.

I'm pretty sure you don't know what you're talking about. Prosecutors take many factors into consideration before they charge in such cases, such as whether the targeted person was harming the person who sought to hire someone to kill them and therefore the attempt at murder for hire was a form of self-defense, whether the person seeking murder for hire had good reason to believe that their target intended to do them bodily harm, etc., etc.

And I'm really sure you're being disingenuous. Tell me: What penalties would you suggest for the doctor and the mother in an abortion, given what we now know from science about unborn babies?

Let me guess: NONE. Not only NONE, but you support unrestricted legalized abortion. So your whole line of argument is deceptive and insincere.

We're not talking about extenuating circumstances here.

I don't support unrestricted legal abortion. Don't lie about what I believe. Lie about someone else if you need to lie.

Then tell me what penalties you would support for the doctor and the mother in an abortion, given what we now know from science about unborn children.

You make the erroneous assumption that all murders are charged as murders, when in fact many are pled down in order to ensure the killer doesn't walk scot-free or are deemed to have been done under extenuating circumstances and the charge is reduced. So it is misleading to say, "Gee, if pro-lifers were logical, they would demand that all doctors and mothers involved in abortions be charged with murder." That is a ridiculous, insincere strawman argument.

Anyway, so tell me what abortions you would make illegal (since you said you don't support unrestricted legalized abortion) and what penalties you would support for the doctor and mother.

 

[Coyote]

Yup. If I wasn't born I would not care. I would never have existed. I wouldn't know it. Why would I care?

Why? Because, if you value your existence now, you should be thankful for it. And think of how blessed you are that you do exist. You could have just as easily been yanked out of the womb during your development, at your mother's behest, because she didn't think you were a person and/or you weren't convenient for her at the time.

Would you have rather not existed if it meant giving your mother a choice?

I value my existence but the blunt truth is - if I had never been born I would neither know nor care. And yes - I would NEVER want to force my mother or any woman to bear a pregnancy against her will.

 

[Coyote]

Why not fine the men?

Easy, because according to people like you, the man's opinion and input are not wanted or needed. They have no idea what the woman is going through. That, miss, represents the hypocrisy of your argument.

But according to you the woman MUST be punished.

 

[Coyote]

Or better yet, why not provide the women with health care for themselves and their children, paid maternity leave, and higher wages so they can afford to keep and raise their child, if you wish to discourage abortion?

Why not give women good paying jobs, actual jobs, rather than subsidizing them, to keep them barely above the poverty line? Perhaps if our government made the atmosphere more conducive to job creation and career education, perhaps women wouldn't need to abort because they can't afford the baby. But hey, food stamps and welfare checks...and stuff.

What you need are family friendly (rather than family values) policies: paid maternity and paternity leave, subsidized childcare so a woman can more easily go to work or finish her education, flexible work arrangements, maybe even daycare in the work evironment, policies that mean you won't lose your job if you become pregnant. Many European countries have this.

Why not encourage good reality-based sexual education everywhere and make contraception free and easily available? Preventing abortion is not simply providing for the baby but preventing the baby in the first place.

 

[mikegriffith1]

I value my existence but the blunt truth is - if I had never been born I would neither know nor care. And yes - I would NEVER want to force my mother or any woman to bear a pregnancy against her will.

So just because you don't care if you had never been born, somehow that means that a woman should have the right to kill her own baby for no valid reason? "Gee, a baby doesn't fit into my life plans right now" is not a valid reason to kill him or her.

Do you think the baby wants to be killed? You would not force any woman to "bear a pregnancy against her will," which means you would not lift a finger to protect the innocent unborn baby from an undeserved, unjust death.

 

[NYcarbineer]

I'm pretty sure if you hire someone to murder someone, you're as liable as they are.

I'm pretty sure you don't know what you're talking about. Prosecutors take many factors into consideration before they charge in such cases, such as whether the targeted person was harming the person who sought to hire someone to kill them and therefore the attempt at murder for hire was a form of self-defense, whether the person seeking murder for hire had good reason to believe that their target intended to do them bodily harm, etc., etc.

And I'm really sure you're being disingenuous. Tell me: What penalties would you suggest for the doctor and the mother in an abortion, given what we now know from science about unborn babies?

Let me guess: NONE. Not only NONE, but you support unrestricted legalized abortion. So your whole line of argument is deceptive and insincere.

We're not talking about extenuating circumstances here.

I don't support unrestricted legal abortion. Don't lie about what I believe. Lie about someone else if you need to lie.

Then tell me what penalties you would support for the doctor and the mother in an abortion, given what we now know from science about unborn children.

You make the erroneous assumption that all murders are charged as murders, when in fact many are pled down in order to ensure the killer doesn't walk scot-free or are deemed to have been done under extenuating circumstances and the charge is reduced. So it is misleading to say, "Gee, if pro-lifers were logical, they would demand that all doctors and mothers involved in abortions be charged with murder." That is a ridiculous, insincere strawman argument.

Anyway, so tell me what abortions you would make illegal (since you said you don't support unrestricted legalized abortion) and what penalties you would support for the doctor and mother.

I'm telling you that if you say abortion is murder, then abortion must be treated like murder. If you can't cope with the logical consequences of your assertion,

then stop saying it.

I"m saying that if a fetus is given 'personhood' by law, then there is no material difference between you and a one day old fertilized human egg.

Killing either would be the same crime under the same circumstances.

If a fetus is a person it is entitled by the Constitution to have equal protection under the law. Saying then that killing a fetus is less of a crime than killing a born person would be an unconstitutional violation of that protection.

 

[thanatos144]

The time to think about whether you can live with having a baby is BEFORE SEX not after. After leads to a innocent human death for no reason other then convenience.

 

[Coyote]

I value my existence but the blunt truth is - if I had never been born I would neither know nor care. And yes - I would NEVER want to force my mother or any woman to bear a pregnancy against her will.

So just because you don't care if you had never been born, somehow that means that a woman should have the right to kill her own baby for no valid reason? "Gee, a baby doesn't fit into my life plans right now" is not a valid reason to kill him or her.

Do you think the baby wants to be killed? You would not force any woman to "bear a pregnancy against her will," which means you would not lift a finger to protect the innocent unborn baby from an undeserved, unjust death.

There are a lot of reasons but it comes down to this: no one has a right to force a woman into an unwanted pregnancy, control her body or make life changing choices for her. If you feel so strongly about it - offer to have the unwanted fetus implanted in you, or start a compaign to force the father to carry it and see how you feel about having someone who neither knows you nor cares take control of our body.

A handful of cells is nothing more than a potential baby - it has no brain, no awareness, no consciousness, no feeling.

 

[mikegriffith1]

I value my existence but the blunt truth is - if I had never been born I would neither know nor care. And yes - I would NEVER want to force my mother or any woman to bear a pregnancy against her will.

So just because you don't care if you had never been born, somehow that means that a woman should have the right to kill her own baby for no valid reason? "Gee, a baby doesn't fit into my life plans right now" is not a valid reason to kill him or her.

Do you think the baby wants to be killed? You would not force any woman to "bear a pregnancy against her will," which means you would not lift a finger to protect the innocent unborn baby from an undeserved, unjust death.

There are a lot of reasons but it comes down to this: no one has a right to force a woman into an unwanted pregnancy, control her body or make life changing choices for her. If you feel so strongly about it - offer to have the unwanted fetus implanted in you, or start a compaign to force the father to carry it and see how you feel about having someone who neither knows you nor cares take control of our body.

A handful of cells is nothing more than a potential baby - it has no brain, no awareness, no consciousness, no feeling.

You are about 30 years behind the science on this issue, unless you're only talking about abortion done within 1 week of pregnancy.

And, FYI, it's a biological fact that the baby is not the mother's "body." It's not "her body." The baby is a separate body in her body; he or she is not like her kidney or liver or heart.

 

[Coyote]

I value my existence but the blunt truth is - if I had never been born I would neither know nor care. And yes - I would NEVER want to force my mother or any woman to bear a pregnancy against her will.

So just because you don't care if you had never been born, somehow that means that a woman should have the right to kill her own baby for no valid reason? "Gee, a baby doesn't fit into my life plans right now" is not a valid reason to kill him or her.

Do you think the baby wants to be killed? You would not force any woman to "bear a pregnancy against her will," which means you would not lift a finger to protect the innocent unborn baby from an undeserved, unjust death.

There are a lot of reasons but it comes down to this: no one has a right to force a woman into an unwanted pregnancy, control her body or make life changing choices for her. If you feel so strongly about it - offer to have the unwanted fetus implanted in you, or start a compaign to force the father to carry it and see how you feel about having someone who neither knows you nor cares take control of our body.

A handful of cells is nothing more than a potential baby - it has no brain, no awareness, no consciousness, no feeling.

You are about 30 years behind the science on this issue, unless you're only talking about abortion done within 1 week of pregnancy.

And, FYI, it's a biological fact that the baby is not the mother's "body." It's not "her body." The baby is a separate body in her body; he or she is not like her kidney or liver or heart.

No, I'm pretty up to date on science.

Week 1 - egg is released
Sex occurs and the sperm goes looking.

At this point - the Morning After Pill can be used to prevent pregnancy (up to 5 days post sex) - however, pro-lifers seem to consider this an abortion so I imagine that you would consider the woman homocidal at this point.

Week 2 - 3 Conception. Sperm penetrates egg and becomes a zygote. One cell. Zygote contains all the genetic information to become a baby. Potential.
It spends a week traveling, becomes a microscopic ball of cells called a Blastocyst, and embeds in the uterus if it's lucky.
75% chance of miscarriage occurs.

This is where IUD controception works - it prevents the Blastocyst from embedding. I suppose she is a serial killer now.

Week 4 - Blastocyst embeds and starts to multiply. It's still just a ball of cells. 30% chance of misscarriage.

Week 5 - it becomes an Embryo. Cells start to differentiate. It doesn't even look remotely human.

Week 7 - arm and leg buds develop, further differentiation, primitive organs, size of a lentil,

33% of abortions take place before this time.

Weeks 8 - organs continue to develop and grow. The embryo is the size of a kidney bean.

At this point if a woman is going to have an abortion, 63 % have done so.
Only 4.8 percent of all abortions occur after 15 weeks.

Brain waves don't begin to appear as intermittent bursts until 20 weeks and aren't consistent and synchronized until 27 weeks. This also means that it can not feel pain until this point.

It's a biological fact that it is not viable and entirely dependent on the mother's body for existence. It does not even have a functioning brain. Brainwaves define the existence of independent life.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

NY carbineer brings up a great point in this thread, what would you charge the mom with if abortion some how became illegal, the electric chair? Life in prision, if a fetus is a human being?

What the poster said......

Can we just accept that the left is never going to understand biology Page 6 US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

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NYcarbineerDiamond Member
The anti-abortionists keep throwing it into the faces of the pro-choicers saying that they are killing innocent human life.

But 99% of those same anti-abortionists cannot bring themselves to call for the appropriate punishment of women who have abortions,

which would be in most cases life in prison.

Why are you people pretending you believe that the fetus is a person

If you are going to call those who are against abortion anti-abortionists why don't you call "pro Choicers" pro abortionist or pro murderers?

Science has proven that a fetus is a person.

Not as a fact of law, however, which is why abortion is not "murder."

 

[SassyIrishLass]

I value my existence but the blunt truth is - if I had never been born I would neither know nor care. And yes - I would NEVER want to force my mother or any woman to bear a pregnancy against her will.

So just because you don't care if you had never been born, somehow that means that a woman should have the right to kill her own baby for no valid reason? "Gee, a baby doesn't fit into my life plans right now" is not a valid reason to kill him or her.

Do you think the baby wants to be killed? You would not force any woman to "bear a pregnancy against her will," which means you would not lift a finger to protect the innocent unborn baby from an undeserved, unjust death.

There are a lot of reasons but it comes down to this: no one has a right to force a woman into an unwanted pregnancy, control her body or make life changing choices for her. If you feel so strongly about it - offer to have the unwanted fetus implanted in you, or start a compaign to force the father to carry it and see how you feel about having someone who neither knows you nor cares take control of our body.

A handful of cells is nothing more than a potential baby - it has no brain, no awareness, no consciousness, no feeling.

You are about 30 years behind the science on this issue, unless you're only talking about abortion done within 1 week of pregnancy.

And, FYI, it's a biological fact that the baby is not the mother's "body." It's not "her body." The baby is a separate body in her body; he or she is not like her kidney or liver or heart.

No, I'm pretty up to date on science.

Week 1 - egg is released
Sex occurs and the sperm goes looking.

At this point - the Morning After Pill can be used to prevent pregnancy (up to 5 days post sex) - however, pro-lifers seem to consider this an abortion so I imagine that you would consider the woman homocidal at this point.

Week 2 - 3 Conception. Sperm penetrates egg and becomes a zygote. One cell. Zygote contains all the genetic information to become a baby. Potential.
It spends a week traveling, becomes a microscopic ball of cells called a Blastocyst, and embeds in the uterus if it's lucky.
75% chance of miscarriage occurs.

This is where IUD controception works - it prevents the Blastocyst from embedding. I suppose she is a serial killer now.

Week 4 - Blastocyst embeds and starts to multiply. It's still just a ball of cells. 30% chance of misscarriage.

Week 5 - it becomes an Embryo. Cells start to differentiate. It doesn't even look remotely human.

Week 7 - arm and leg buds develop, further differentiation, primitive organs, size of a lentil,

33% of abortions take place before this time.

Weeks 8 - organs continue to develop and grow. The embryo is the size of a kidney bean.

At this point if a woman is going to have an abortion, 63 % have done so.
Only 4.8 percent of all abortions occur after 15 weeks.

Brain waves don't begin to appear as intermittent bursts until 20 weeks and aren't consistent and synchronized until 27 weeks. This also means that it can not feel pain until this point.

It's a biological fact that it is not viable and entirely dependent on the mother's body for existence. It does not even have a functioning brain. Brainwaves define the existence of independent life.

That is false, brain waves can be detected and recorded between 6-8 weeks.

Overview Fetal Development First Trimester Pregnancy.org

 

[chikenwing]

I also don't think that people know that even under Roe v Wade states can make later term abortions the crime of murder if they so chose. Why haven't they?

note: I'll gladly be corrected if I'm not wrong on that.

I kind of think I am the only one so far on the right that understands your logical thinking on this topic. In the past 30 year's or so debating this, you are the first to bring a "breath of fresh air" argument to the table.

No, plenty of them understand us perfectly. They are reacting as people often react when confronted with a thoroughly indisputable set of facts that wreak havoc on their own position.

It's one of the rock and a hard place problems for the 'abortion is murder' people.

1. If they take the logical rational position, which is that if abortion is murder then all women who abort are murderers and should face the appropriate consequences, they have isolated themselves in such a distatsteful position that they are then arguing a hopelessly extreme point.

2. If they take the position that abortion should be illegal but not made the crime of murder for women who abort, then they've conceded that the fetus should not be considered a person. Once they've conceded that then the entire argument against abortion as being the taking of a human life falls apart.

Then your position will suffer the same fate,explain away laws that are on the books protecting unborn children,how can the state charge anyone with a crime if your position was indisputable as you claim??

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Yup. If I wasn't born I would not care. I would never have existed. I wouldn't know it. Why would I care?

Why? Because, if you value your existence now, you should be thankful for it. And think of how blessed you are that you do exist. You could have just as easily been yanked out of the womb during your development, at your mother's behest, because she didn't think you were a person and/or you weren't convenient for her at the time.

Would you have rather not existed if it meant giving your mother a choice?

I value my existence but the blunt truth is - if I had never been born I would neither know nor care. And yes - I would NEVER want to force my mother or any woman to bear a pregnancy against her will.

And the state clearly lacks the authority to do so.

 

[Coyote]

I value my existence but the blunt truth is - if I had never been born I would neither know nor care. And yes - I would NEVER want to force my mother or any woman to bear a pregnancy against her will.

So just because you don't care if you had never been born, somehow that means that a woman should have the right to kill her own baby for no valid reason? "Gee, a baby doesn't fit into my life plans right now" is not a valid reason to kill him or her.

Do you think the baby wants to be killed? You would not force any woman to "bear a pregnancy against her will," which means you would not lift a finger to protect the innocent unborn baby from an undeserved, unjust death.

There are a lot of reasons but it comes down to this: no one has a right to force a woman into an unwanted pregnancy, control her body or make life changing choices for her. If you feel so strongly about it - offer to have the unwanted fetus implanted in you, or start a compaign to force the father to carry it and see how you feel about having someone who neither knows you nor cares take control of our body.

A handful of cells is nothing more than a potential baby - it has no brain, no awareness, no consciousness, no feeling.

You are about 30 years behind the science on this issue, unless you're only talking about abortion done within 1 week of pregnancy.

And, FYI, it's a biological fact that the baby is not the mother's "body." It's not "her body." The baby is a separate body in her body; he or she is not like her kidney or liver or heart.

No, I'm pretty up to date on science.

Week 1 - egg is released
Sex occurs and the sperm goes looking.

At this point - the Morning After Pill can be used to prevent pregnancy (up to 5 days post sex) - however, pro-lifers seem to consider this an abortion so I imagine that you would consider the woman homocidal at this point.

Week 2 - 3 Conception. Sperm penetrates egg and becomes a zygote. One cell. Zygote contains all the genetic information to become a baby. Potential.
It spends a week traveling, becomes a microscopic ball of cells called a Blastocyst, and embeds in the uterus if it's lucky.
75% chance of miscarriage occurs.

This is where IUD controception works - it prevents the Blastocyst from embedding. I suppose she is a serial killer now.

Week 4 - Blastocyst embeds and starts to multiply. It's still just a ball of cells. 30% chance of misscarriage.

Week 5 - it becomes an Embryo. Cells start to differentiate. It doesn't even look remotely human.

Week 7 - arm and leg buds develop, further differentiation, primitive organs, size of a lentil,

33% of abortions take place before this time.

Weeks 8 - organs continue to develop and grow. The embryo is the size of a kidney bean.

At this point if a woman is going to have an abortion, 63 % have done so.
Only 4.8 percent of all abortions occur after 15 weeks.

Brain waves don't begin to appear as intermittent bursts until 20 weeks and aren't consistent and synchronized until 27 weeks. This also means that it can not feel pain until this point.

It's a biological fact that it is not viable and entirely dependent on the mother's body for existence. It does not even have a functioning brain. Brainwaves define the existence of independent life.

That is false, brain waves can be detected and recorded between 6-8 weeks.

Overview Fetal Development First Trimester Pregnancy.org

That is not supported by research: Hoyden-About-Town Fetal Brain Development Myths and Disinformation

 

[TemplarKormac]

If the woman decides to have the baby, the father has an obligation to pay child support for that child even if she doesn't get to decide whether or not she proceeds with the pregnancy.

Really? So all of a sudden now the man matters? Color me surprised!

 

[TemplarKormac]

But according to you the woman MUST be punished.

Yeah, she should in theory. She made her choice, she rode the saddle. Now she must bear the consequences. But the whole idea here was theory, finding a way not to put her in jail. Well, here's the compromise.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

Almost every anti-abortionist knows someone personally who's had an abortion, as almost all of us do.

You call abortion murder. Would you sign the papers that put that woman you know away for life?

Wow, what circles are you running in? I don't know anyone who has had an abortion...

Do you think abortion is murder?

No, it isn't murder because it is legal. It is however, the taking of a human life.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Almost every anti-abortionist knows someone personally who's had an abortion, as almost all of us do.

You call abortion murder. Would you sign the papers that put that woman you know away for life?

Wow, what circles are you running in? I don't know anyone who has had an abortion...

Do you think abortion is murder?

No, it isn't murder because it is legal. It is however, infanticide.

Should it be murder then? That means women caught taking the morning after pill would go to prison for life..