Zone1 Abortion Debate: Come Clean and without fallacy

No, I'm correct. Provability is what distinguishes fact from opinion.
We were discussing the difference between objectivity and subjectivity. The difference is bias. A person being objective has no bias. A person being subjective has bias. All you needed to do was look at the definitions.

subjective: based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions.

objective: not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.
 
Thank you. Or rather Thank the AI engine you used.
I use AI for convenience. I already knew the answer. That's how I knew to ask the question I asked. I knew what answer I was going to get. I also use AI because it's harder for people like you to dispute.
 
You don't understand it at all and your incorrect description of it is proof. And no, I'm not going to tell you what it actually is. I've told you my position multiple times. I have no assurance you would understand it if I told you one more time. Or a hundred times.

Bored now. Like Chuz, we're just going in circles now. You can have the last word.
You are lying.
 
A person must be an individual. A fetus is not an indivdual. There must be selfawareness
A newly born child is not self-aware. Demonstrable self-awareness may not happen until early childhood when he or she acquires speech and starts referring to him or herself in the 1st person.

We need to account for levels or gradations of sentience IMO.
 
A newly born child is not self-aware. Demonstrable self-awareness may not happen until early childhood when he or she acquires speech and starts referring to him or herself in the 1st person.

We need to account for levels or gradations of sentience IMO.
Self awareness begins 6 months after birth according to the works of Fred PIne Annie Bergman and Margaret Mawler
 
Self awareness begins 6 months after birth according to the works of Fred PIne Annie Bergman and Margaret Mawler
I can only assume you are not suggesting abortion should be legal up to six months after birth.
 
I can only assume you are not suggesting abortion should be legal up to six months after birth.
No I would use 3 months as a limit. Most people dont know an infant up to 6 months lives as part of the mothers mind as literally one person. Thats why adoption is so traumatizing when mother and infant are separated. The infant loses a part of its self
 
No I would use 3 months as a limit. Most people don't know an infant up to 6 months lives as part of the mothers mind as literally one person. That's why adoption is so traumatizing when mother and infant are separated. The infant loses a part of its self
I certainly did not know that. I'm not even sure what it means.

There are numerous cases of babies being accidentally switched at birth in hospitals. I don't think they grew up feeling a part of themselves was lost.
 
I certainly did not know that. I'm not even sure what it means.

There are numerous cases of babies being accidentally switched at birth in hospitals. I don't think they grew up feeling a part of themselves was lost.
Yes they do but they cant verbalize it. I researched the trauma and developed therapeutic interventions to heal this special kind of trauma. Its called a preverbal trauma. My practice as therapist was with adoptees and their families

Infants only a few days old can record long term memories. “Infants do not think but they do process emotions and long term memories are stored as affective schemas” (Geansbauer, 2002). An infant separated from its first mother will record a memory of that event. Memories of this nature are called preverbal memory representations and they have a unique quality that must be understood by adoptive parents. “Infant memories are recalled in adulthood the same way they were recorded at the time they occurred. It is difficult possibly impossible for children to map newly acquired verbal skills on to existing preverbal memory representations” (Richardson, R., & Hayne, H. 2007). An older adoptee who recalls an emotional memory will experience it the same way it was felt as an infant. Adoptees can have troubling memories that they cannot identify in words. This means that they cannot understand what they are feeling and without a vocabulary they cannot even ask for help. This leads to a cognitive /emotional disconnection. “Children fail to translate their preverbal memories into language”(Simcock, Hayne, 2002).
 
Yes they do but they cant verbalize it. I researched the trauma and developed therapeutic interventions to heal this special kind of trauma. Its called a preverbal trauma. My practice as therapist was with adoptees and their families

Infants only a few days old can record long term memories. “Infants do not think but they do process emotions and long term memories are stored as affective schemas” (Geansbauer, 2002). An infant separated from its first mother will record a memory of that event. Memories of this nature are called preverbal memory representations and they have a unique quality that must be understood by adoptive parents. “Infant memories are recalled in adulthood the same way they were recorded at the time they occurred. It is difficult possibly impossible for children to map newly acquired verbal skills on to existing preverbal memory representations” (Richardson, R., & Hayne, H. 2007). An older adoptee who recalls an emotional memory will experience it the same way it was felt as an infant. Adoptees can have troubling memories that they cannot identify in words. This means that they cannot understand what they are feeling and without a vocabulary they cannot even ask for help. This leads to a cognitive /emotional disconnection. “Children fail to translate their preverbal memories into language”(Simcock, Hayne, 2002).
I'm not buying it. Babies switched at birth do not know they are adoptees. The parents don't even know they have effectively adopted the wrong baby.

BTW, when you say you would use 3 months as a limit, I think that means 3 months after conception, not after birth. I don't think anyone believes in 52nd week abortions. 😲
 
An unstated premise of the abortion debate is that the central question is whether a fetus is a "human life" or a "person". Pro-lifers focus on that as THE issue to be determined, and pro-choice people generally accept that as the frame for the argument. But that's largely irrelevant to the real issue.

The central question is whether we should make abortion illegal. If you want to insist that abortion is killing a human life, I can accept that. But killing a human life isn't always illegal, and for good reasons. We can kill for self-defense, when fighting a war, when punishing someone for a crime, etc ... All of these end a human life, but we don't prosecute them as murder. Why?

In addition, many people - who are otherwise opposed to abortion - are willing to allow it in cases of rape or incest. Why?
 
An unstated premise of the abortion debate is that the central question is whether a fetus is a "human life" or a "person".
True.
Pro-lifers focus on that as THE issue to be determined, and pro-choice people generally accept that as the frame for the argument. But that's largely irrelevant to the real issue.
Not true.

Because "once it is established that the fetus is a person. . . "

Here, I'll let the Supreme Court finish their thought on that, themself.



The central question is whether we should make abortion illegal.
According to the SCOTUS, the central question is "what rights, if any, does the fetus (child in the womb) have. . .

If you want to insist that abortion is killing a human life, I can accept that.

If only all abortion proponents would do the same.

But killing a human life isn't always illegal, and for good reasons.
True 100%!
We can kill for self-defense, when fighting a war, when punishing someone for a crime, etc ... All of these end a human life, but we don't prosecute them as murder. Why?
Because those "killings" are (or can be) constitutionally justified. Primarily by affording the person "being killed" - "due process" - and the "equal protection" of our laws. All of which are denied to children in the womb when an abortion takes place.

In addition, many people - who are otherwise opposed to abortion - are willing to allow it in cases of rape or incest. Why?
As you indicated, killing can be justified in some cases, and in other cases, it can't be justified.

When you consider that every pregnancy is a (usually manageable) threat to a woman's life, we can examine abortions as a means of self-defense. (One of the justifications you mentioned earlier)

In the case of a non-rape pregnancy, a woman and her partner assume the risks for pregnancy. Even with protection they know (or should know) is not 100% effective, they assumed the risks. That amounts to an implied consent. (This is also inferred in the SCOTUS video I linked to)

The "child in the womb is only where it is because of the risks the woman and her partner assumed, and in doing so, their consent for the outcome of their assumed risk is implied. The child they created is entitled to the equal protection of law, and it then takes an even greater (atypical) threat to the woman's life, for an abortion as an act of self-defense to be justified.

In the case of a rape / criminally induced pregnancy, there was no assumption of risks by the woman, no "implied consent" for the pregnancy that has been forced onto her in a criminal act.

The child she is pregnant with is still just as much a child / human being. . . but they are a real threat to the woman's life/health and well-being that she in no way invited, assumed the risks for, or even implied consent for it being there.

She does not surrender her right to defend herself against that threat when she becomes a victim of rape.

All this being said, I think there is a reasonable expectation for the rape victim/woman to cooperate with authorities to (when justified) have the abortion if she chooses to do so, as early as possible in the pregnancy.

Because her failure to do so would look more and more like "implied consent."

I challenge anyone else to give you a more thorough answer than this. I would like to read it.
 
True.

Not true.

Because "once it is established that the fetus is a person. . . "

Here, I'll let the Supreme Court finish their thought on that, themself.




According to the SCOTUS, the central question is "what rights, if any, does the fetus (child in the womb) have. . .



If only all abortion proponents would do the same.


True 100%!

Because those "killings" are (or can be) constitutionally justified. Primarily by affording the person "being killed" - "due process" - and the "equal protection" of our laws. All of which are denied to children in the womb when an abortion takes place.


As you indicated, killing can be justified in some cases, and in other cases, it can't be justified.

When you consider that every pregnancy is a (usually manageable) threat to a woman's life, we can examine abortions as a means of self-defense. (One of the justifications you mentioned earlier)

In the case of a non-rape pregnancy, a woman and her partner assume the risks for pregnancy. Even with protection they know (or should know) is not 100% effective, they assumed the risks. That amounts to an implied consent. (This is also inferred in the SCOTUS video I linked to)

The "child in the womb is only where it is because of the risks the woman and her partner assumed, and in doing so, their consent for the outcome of their assumed risk is implied. The child they created is entitled to the equal protection of law, and it then takes an even greater (atypical) threat to the woman's life, for an abortion as an act of self-defense to be justified.

In the case of a rape / criminally induced pregnancy, there was no assumption of risks by the woman, no "implied consent" for the pregnancy that has been forced onto her in a criminal act.

The child she is pregnant with is still just as much a child / human being. . . but they are a real threat to the woman's life/health and well-being that she in no way invited, assumed the risks for, or even implied consent for it being there.

She does not surrender her right to defend herself against that threat when she becomes a victim of rape.

All this being said, I think there is a reasonable expectation for the rape victim/woman to cooperate with authorities to (when justified) have the abortion if she chooses to do so, as early as possible in the pregnancy.

Because her failure to do so would look more and more like "implied consent."

I challenge anyone else to give you a more thorough answer than this. I would like to read it.

The only question is when can abortion be on demand 3 months after pregnancy occurs.
 
How about all young people, married or not, just plain take steps to not conceive, ever. The issue then goes away. Everyone wins. Argument settled. Two people can be married without being open to creating life.
 
15th post
How about all young people, married or not, just plain take steps to not conceive, ever. The issue then goes away. Everyone wins. Argument settled. Two people can be married without being open to creating life.
The State ordering mass sterilization is an option.
 
The new bumper stickers should read "My body my choice. . . but only if it's before the Hafar 3 month cutoff point"
LOL.

“My body my choice” is all or nothing. If she wanted to kill an 8 month fetus, it’s her choice.

Most people would identify that as infanticide
 
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