Zone1 A christian-atheist compromise?

[frigidweirdo]

The Hebrew language has various words used for sky and heaven. They believed in seven levels of heaven, each veiled. One word describing heaven came from two words meaning water and fire. Speaking of going up in space...one would correctly state that earth is in the heavens, part of the heavens.

We also learn that God is everywhere, God is in our midst. Given that earth is in the heavens, not a hard concept to grasp. We do not need to leave Earth to find Him; He is here.

Yeah, so Hebrew says some word that could be sky, could be heaven. So people start believing God is up in the sky. Says a lot about religion, doesn't it? Says people will believe anything.

But then you have the problem that God, apparently, made us in his image. What image is that? Does he have ears and eyes and legs and arms? Or is it that as an omnipotent being, we're omnipotent too?

 

[Meriweather]

Yeah, so Hebrew says some word that could be sky, could be heaven. So people start believing God is up in the sky. Says a lot about religion, doesn't it? Says people will believe anything.

A child could look up at the sky and gravely inform you God is not there. I was taught the Spirit of God is everywhere. Even now the same word can have more than just one meaning. For example, are you confused when you hear, "God is in His heaven and all is right with the world."

As for me, I think it perfectly obvious that it means God is in His dwelling place and all is right in the small part of the world in which I live.

 

[Meriweather]

But then you have the problem that God, apparently, made us in his image. What image is that? Does he have ears and eyes and legs and arms? Or is it that as an omnipotent being, we're omnipotent too?

God is Creator. We seem to be creators as well.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Wouldn't this be a wonderful way to honor age-old christian traditions while still allowing ourselves to grow up and let go of the myths and legends of our intellectual and spiritual adolescence?

It would, but it won’t happen.

Facts and the truth are anathema to theism.

 

[Meriweather]

Facts and the truth are anathema to theism.

Stop flattering us. Atheists are heads and shoulders above us in that respect.

 

[frigidweirdo]

A child could look up at the sky and gravely inform you God is not there. I was taught the Spirit of God is everywhere. Even now the same word can have more than just one meaning. For example, are you confused when you hear, "God is in His heaven and all is right with the world."

As for me, I think it perfectly obvious that it means God is in His dwelling place and all is right in the small part of the world in which I live.

Well, that depends on what you think God is.

God could be everything. God could be a man in the sky. God could be the creator.
God is very fluid as an entity, not well defined and this serves the purpose of those who might have to respond to what or where God is. You ask a question and what comes back doesn't have much in the way of meaning.

So where is God's dwelling place? Is it inside this universe? Outside of this universe? In a completely different dimension? And how do you?

 

[frigidweirdo]

God is Creator. We seem to be creators as well.

How did God create things?

 

[Meriweather]

How did God create things?

He spoke. Words have power.

 

[frigidweirdo]

He spoke. Words have power.

He spoke? Like, he has a voice box. So he spoke, yet there was no one there to hear. Or were there other gods there to hear him? Can you produce things by just speaking, without any physical thing happening?

 

[Meriweather]

He spoke? Like, he has a voice box. So he spoke, yet there was no one there to hear. Or were there other gods there to hear him? Can you produce things by just speaking, without any physical thing happening?

Let's start with this. You try doing anything without so much as putting words (even in your thoughts) into play.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Let's start with this. You try doing anything without so much as putting words (even in your thoughts) into play.

Let's put it another way, you have words, but you have no arms, no legs, no jaw, nothing to do anything with, and no people to help you, how's that going to work out for you?

 

[zaangalewa]

Well, I'm sure if I say Harry Potter is my God and I become so fervent, I will no longer "believe", I will "KNOW"

Only to make something clear: This argument against the [belief in the] creator [god] - whether you call this argument "Harry Potter" or others call it "flying Spaghetti monster" - sounds indeed a little very lousy. No one believes in Harry Potter or in a flying Spaghetti monster - except perhaps an Italian wife who uses a flying plate with spaghetti as a monstrous argument in a discussion with her husband.

 

[zaangalewa]

... My ex would frequently express personal hurt at my sometimes insensitive critiques of her religion, and of the God that she believes resides in her. ...

Was she right to leave you?

 

[john54]

Was she right to leave you?

Oh, totally.

 

[zaangalewa]

Oh, totally.

Hmmm .... It remembers me how a good friend died who had been married with an atheist. They had been students and had two children and suddenly she got an agressive cancer and had only some month to live any longer. Even in this situation she had been a wonderful woman and made everything in the very best of all possible ways. My eyes are still full of tears now. A short time ago I spoke with my wife about them. He was also a nice guy. ...

 

[Meriweather]

Let's put it another way, you have words, but you have no arms, no legs, no jaw, nothing to do anything with, and no people to help you, how's that going to work out for you?

If I were in that state, I would have passed on, so I am going to go with, Very well, indeed.

 

[ding]

Maybe I can understand your point better, but let's agree that we're not talking about scientific evidence but rather it's reasoned sensibility.

Steven Hawking mentioned in his book that if the gravitational constant were to vary bay a tenth of a percent the universe would either never have formed stars, or they'd all just collapse in on themselves. We got a great constant that makes us all possible.

Of course that doesn't prove anything, we could be here because there are an infinite number of universes and we just happen to be in the one that makes us possible. Or maybe there's some other as yet undiscovered reason why the constant has to be what it is. mho is all that's a bit contrived, but the fact is there's no scientific proof that points either way.

If the universe were created intentionally one would expect that there would be signs, right? How many are you willing to discard before accepting life and intelligence were predestined to exist in ours?

 

[ding]

Well I wasn't trying to be an ass as much as scoping out where logic ends and belief begins with this particular faith.

You've raised the likelihood of a God in my mind to above Santa, ok. But really not by a lot because all I'm reading about baryogenesis is that it's just one more scientific question we're inching closer to having the answer to. A revision of the standard model has been long in the coming anyway, given that it can't even explain presently observable quantum effects.

I can't understand why you would find an omnipotent intelligent entity creating the extra matter more likely than just another scientific quirk we haven't figured out yet. Einstein thought much of quantum theory was ridiculous and a lot of what he thought was absurd has since been proven - if someone that smart couldn't see a path forward and still be wrong, why are you so confident that it's not just a matter of time?

I'm not sure how else one should take being told to put away their faith because it's for children.

It's your perception of God that is flawed because you read the Bible to confirm your bias instead of reading for the intent of the authors. I really couldn't give two shits about what someone believes. Until that is they start suggesting that others should put away their faith for the express purpose of subordinating their religion. That I can't abide by. Otherwise, go be happy being an atheist and don't worry about what other people believe.

 

[ding]

The potential for biological molecular machines existed before space and time were created because the laws of nature existed before space and time and were created.

 

[john54]

I'm not sure how else one should take being told to put away their faith because it's for children.

It's your perception of God that is flawed because you read the Bible to confirm your bias instead of reading for the intent of the authors. I really couldn't give two shits about what someone believes. Until that is they start suggesting that others should put away their faith for the express purpose of subordinating their religion. That I can't abide by. Otherwise, go be happy being an atheist and don't worry about what other people believe.

Well believe as you will, but forgive me for worrying where you'll be when baryogenesis is solved. Clearly you're a smart man - I know many smart men, and it's their curse to have to choose between deeply facing reality and deeply spurning it. When that extra matter turns out to be a quirk of math, I hope you'll not be too dismayed by it.