Zone1 A christian-atheist compromise?

[john54]

No. It's not a paraphrase at all. It's a re-writing of the definition.

We've been discussing the evidence for 10 pages; creation is the evidence, the evolution of space and time is the evidence. That you continue to make comparisons to Santa Clause and believe that is a realistic analogy is ridiculous. The only possible motivation for you making such a ridiculous comparison and re-write the definition of faith is to suit your purpose. Unfortunately it shows an incredible lack of intelligence and honesty. Arguing that belief in God is equivalent to belief in Santa Clause is not a serious argument. And if you believe it is you are a dummy. Are you a dummy?

Evidence isn't proof and you know that. You've had decades' more science study than I have. You have used inductive, not deductive reasoning, to assume that there is a God which you've justified by inducing that because the God of the Bible is reported to have created the universe, and since baryogenesis' extra matter can not currently be explained using proven theory, God must have created the extra matter. And You've assumed that the universe's fine tuning towards life isn't a probable outcome of there being multiple universes. You've also made a very generous interpretive reading of genesis ignoring that its events are too out of order even for it to be figurative.



I would redefine my 11-year-old paraphrase to "a belief in things you can't prove to be true."

 

[ding]

Well the person who attacked him molested him. I'd think if there was such a thing as evil that would meet the standard?

I don't believe anyone is evil. For that to be true they would have to do evil for the sake of evil. Which never happens. I believe people harm others because it gives them pleasure to do so. As an atheist you should understand this concept because atheism proceeds in almost all its manifestations from the assumption that the basic principles guiding the life of an individual and of mankind in general do not go beyond the satisfaction of material needs or primitive instincts. Right?

So why are you making an argument that people must be good or evil?

 

[ding]

how religion is generally taught: "strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof."

You wouldn't know. You left religion at 11 years old.

 

[ding]

I would redefine my 11-year-old paraphrase to "a belief in things you can't prove to be true."

And you would still be wrong. The definition of faith is having complete trust in something or someone.

 

[ding]

Evidence isn't proof and you know that. You've had decades' more science study than I have. You have used inductive, not dedu tive reasoning, to assume that there is a God which youve justified by inducing that because the God of the Bible is reported to have created the universe, and since baryogenesis' extra matter can not currently be explained using proven theory, God must have created the extra matter. You've also made a very generous interpretive reading of genesis ignoring that its events are too out of order even for it to be figurative.

It's more than enough proof for me. You have never made a serious assessment. I have. You just assume you know. There will never be any evidence you will accept because your mind is made up. I don't believe in the God you made up either.

 

[john54]

I don't believe anyone is evil. For that to be true they would have to do evil for the sake of evil. Which never happens. I believe people harm others because it gives them pleasure to do so. As an atheist you should understand this concept because atheism proceeds in almost all its manifestations from the assumption that the basic principles guiding the life of an individual and of mankind in general do not go beyond the satisfaction of material needs or primitive instincts. Right?

So why are you making an argument that people must be good or evil?

The one who assaulted him, their actions were evil. They were acting on evil impulses. I suppose it matters how you put it, but I would say they were committing evil and being evil. Evil doesnt mean they have ti akways be evil. Whether someone like that can better themselves after, it probably depends on the person. I'd want them to serve a lot of prison time to begin with.

I don't believe that at all. I told you I think the pursuit of pleasure is a dead end. There's also not near enough evidence for us to be sure of how consciousness operates and whether there are quantum or other effects at play, that would mean we're effected by things beyond the material. It's too early to say. And which materialism do you mean, belief that everything is just matter, or belief that stuff will make you happy? The second I don't believe at all.

 

[john54]

And you would still be wrong. The definition of faith is having complete trust in something or someone.

That is the first definition. The second, according to Oxford is, "strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof."

It's more than enough proof for me. You have never made a serious assessment. I have. You just assume you know. There will never be any evidence you will accept because your mind is made up. I don't believe in the God you made up either.

You're still misusing the word proof. It's just enough of what you're determining to be evidence to get you over the hurdle and convince yourself that you know it to be true. That's different from having actual proof and you would know that better than me.

 

[ding]

The one who assaulted him, their actions were evil. They were acting on evil impulses. I suppose it matters how you put it, but I would say they were committing evil and being evil. Evil doesnt mean they have ti akways be evil. Whether someone like that can better themselves after, it probably depends on the person. I'd want them to serve a lot of prison time to begin with.

Words are important because they can change the meaning. So, yes, it does matter how you say it.

As an atheist why would you even believe evil exists?

 

[ding]

I don't believe that at all. I told you I think the pursuit of pleasure is a dead end. There's also not near enough evidence for us to be sure of how consciousness operates and whether there are quantum or other effects at play, that would mean we're effected by things beyond the material. It's too early to say. And which materialism do you mean, belief that everything is just matter, or belief that stuff will make you happy? The second I don't believe at all.

Then you are at odds with atheism. There's no spiritualism in atheism, there's just matter and the satisfaction of material needs or primitive instincts.

 

[john54]

Words are important because they can change the meaning. So, yes, it does matter how you say it.

As an atheist why would you even believe evil exists?

I don't believe it's supernatural if that's what you mean. But there are things people can do that are horrible, cruel, and that anyone with empathy would instinctively be revolted by if you were to see these things done to someone else. So we have a word, evil. And there's good, and there's neutral, and there's a gray area.

 

[john54]

Then you are at odds with atheism. There's no spiritualism in atheism, there's just matter and the satisfaction of material needs or primitive instincts.

You said yourself there's no official dogma. Do you mean to make one for us??

 

[ding]

I don't believe it's supernatural if that's what you mean. But there are things people can do that are horrible, cruel, and that anyone with empathy would instinctively be revolted by if you were to see these things done to someone else. So we have a word, evil. And there's good, and there's neutral, and there's a gray area.

So then you are back to the satisfaction of material needs or primitive instincts which isn't good or evil.

 

[john54]

So then you are back to the satisfaction of material needs or primitive instincts which isn't good or evil.

I'd consider good and evil thoughts to be potentially immaterial.

 

[ding]

You said yourself there's no official dogma. Do you mean to make one for us??

Which means you won't acknowledge it. It's still true. Atheism is materialism. Plain and simple. There's no distinction between good and evil, no morality or any other kind of value, save pleasure and pain. Despite your objections, by definition, atheism proceeds in almost all its manifestations from the assumption that the basic principles guiding the life of an individual and of mankind in general do not go beyond the satisfaction of material needs or primitive instincts.

So you can try as you might to distance yourself from this reality but this is the reality of believing the only things that exist are matter.

 

[ding]

I'd consider good and evil thoughts to be potentially immaterial.

The most an atheist can say about that are that there are good preferences and bad preferences and that one's preference depends upon which end of the stick he's on. No moral distinctions can be made because the only driving force is satisfaction of material needs or primitive instincts.

 

[ding]

That is the first definition. The second, according to Oxford is, "strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof."


You're still misusing the word proof. It's just enough of what you're determining to be evidence to get you over the hurdle and convince yourself that you know it to be true. That's different from having actual proof and you would know that better than me.

What part of what I told you didn't you understand? Because I don't feel the need to add anything else.

 

[john54]

Which means you won't acknowledge it. It's still true. Atheism is materialism. Plain and simple. There's no distinction between good and evil, no morality or any other kind of value, save pleasure and pain. Despite your objections, by definition, atheism proceeds in almost all its manifestations from the assumption that the basic principles guiding the life of an individual and of mankind in general do not go beyond the satisfaction of material needs or primitive instincts.

So you can try as you might to distance yourself from this reality but this is the reality of believing the only things that exist are matmatter

You're pretty much insulting every atheist friend, family member, teacher, and role model I've ever had, but I guess I don't really mind. It doesn't sound like you know many atheists very well.

Atheist just means no belief in God or gods. Most atheists if not all atheists I know believe in good and evil, in morality, in there being value in helping each other, doing good for others. Many are generous people who help others when it's hard and even miserable for them and do it out of the kindness of their heart. It's important to do the right thing during this limited time we're here in this world, it's all that really matters. But I'm sorry, that really has naught all to do with belief in a God, for any of us.

 

[john54]

What part of what I told you didn't you understand? Because I don't feel the need to add anything else.

I have known atheists who don't believe inngood and evil and who think there's value in being like animals but they're truly idiots. Living a life without empathy and compassion, it's almost the same as being dead.

 

[ding]

You're pretty much insulting every atheist friend, family member, teacher, and role model I've ever had, but I guess I don't really mind. It doesn't sound like you know many atheists very well.

I don't mean to insult them and I don't see how they would feel insulted. It's just a consequence of believing that only the material exists. There's no spiritualism in atheism. Right and wrong have no absolute meaning in atheism. It can be anything society determines it to be for the good of the society whose only aim should be the satisfaction of material needs and primitive instincts because that's all there is in life; material needs and primitive instincts. Anything more is like believing in Santa Clause, right?

 

[ding]

Atheist just means no belief in God or gods.

Which means all there is is the material world. Which means man's only aim is the satisfaction of material needs and primitive instincts.