A Brilliant Analysis of Western Decline...

[vanityofvanitys]

"Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because, if there be one, he must more approve the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."--TJ

If I were you, I would not embrace "TJ" (Jefferson?) as your spiritual leader too completely without having also seriously studied the numerous saints or sages of Christianity as well. Both cannot be right.

It's been my experience that people don't mock God, they mock the invented gods of religion.

Whatever that means?

Are you also suggesting that atheism is not a mocking of that which it cannot know for sure? Or is it just those who claim to have knowledge of a deity (all invented according to you) that are cause for mocking?

 

[PoliticalChic]

"Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because, if there be one, he must more approve the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."--TJ

If I were you, I would not embrace "TJ" (Jefferson?) as your spiritual leader too completely without having also seriously studied the numerous saints or sages of Christianity as well. Both cannot be right.

It's been my experience that people don't mock God, they mock the invented gods of religion.

Whatever that means?

Are you also suggesting that atheism is not a mocking of that which it cannot know for sure? Or is it just those who claim to have knowledge of a deity (all invented according to you) that are cause for mocking?

1. "If I were you, I would not embrace "TJ" (Jefferson?) as your spiritual leader too completely...."

And those of us who have read Jefferson extensively know that, like the Bible....one can find a quote to support almost any perspective.



2. "....suggesting that atheism is not a mocking of that which it cannot know for sure?"

"Pascal's Wager is an argument in apologetic philosophy which was devised by the seventeenth-century French philosopher, mathematician, and physicist Blaise Pascal (1623–1662). It posits that humans all bet with their lives either that God exists or does not exist.

Given the possibility that God actually does exist and assuming the infinite gain or loss associated with belief in God or with unbelief, a rational person should live as though God exists and seek to believe in God. If God does not actually exist, such a person will have only a finite loss (some pleasures, luxury, etc.)"
Pascal's Wager - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Truthmatters]

man had morals long before he invented religion

So.....exactly how old are you?


Can a human being be good without reference to God? Sure….there could be good pagans….or bad religious folks. But God is necessary for morality to survive. Take as an example, a sadist who gets satisfaction from murdering children. If there is no God who declares that such an act is wrong, then my arguing such is simply my opinion versus that of the murderer. Without God, good and evil are a matter of taste.

mans mind invented religion.

there fore mans mind invented the morals that go along with religion huh?


there is no god.

man invented god and morals.


your just so prejudiced against what others believe that you call their morals unreal.

your just that prejudiced and stupid

 

[PainefulTruth]

"Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because, if there be one, he must more approve the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."--TJ

If I were you, I would not embrace "TJ" (Jefferson?) as your spiritual leader too completely without having also seriously studied the numerous saints or sages of Christianity as well. Both cannot be right.

You are absolutely right. But Jefferson isn't my spiritual leader, I merely quote the Truth where I find it--out of the mouths of babes, or the Devil himself. Paine was a lot closer to the Truth, and the only one who stood up for it openly. BTW, the Devil (symbol for our internal temptation to do evil) only tells one lie: "Your vanity is justified".

It's been my experience that people don't mock God, they mock the invented gods of religion.

Whatever that means?

Are you also suggesting that atheism is not a mocking of that which it cannot know for sure? Or is it just those who claim to have knowledge of a deity (all invented according to you) that are cause for mocking?

The only two reasonable positions on God are laissez-faire deism and atheism. A reasonable person can be certain (today especially) that revealed gods and supernatural events are false because they are contradictory, unreasonable and completely lacking in evidence except for hearsay.

And it makes sense that things would be set up that way, since it's how God would maintain our free will. This natural universe would serve no other purpose that God couldn't accomplish straight up. We must not know that God exists, and God couldn't set it up to indicate that "It" doesn't exist, because that would be a lie--God must be equivalent with Truth.

 

[Truthmatters]

This morn, a poster did this victory chant:
".....you got your ass kicked in New York City, in Virginia, and on 6Nov12. With this kind of nonsense, may well get it kicked again Nov14, as well as Nov16."

Hard for me to recognize how many don't realize that they are witnessing...and assisting....in the death of this great society.



For my lights, Western Civilization began to die when the French Revolution made its aim replacing religion with reason, mindless of the fact that reason, or science, have no moral basis. As such, the French Revolution became the template for every bloody totalitarian dictatorship in the modern world.

I would not say that reason has no moral basis since all of mankind was born with innate natural moral law (set by God of course). And our moral conscience is based on that kind of reason. "Reason," the word is too generic to define.

Pure science may have no moral compass, on that I would agree. The French Revolution was a seminal political ideology that propagated far more moral decay than moral or civil advancement, yes, I agree on that as well. When society refuses to acknowledge and reverence its creator, but instead ignore the thought, great perils await and sin flourishes. Intellectual pride has surely propagated this secular humanist attitude and psychology, and we all suffer because of it. I think our nation and present Western civilization is far more rotten out on the inside than can be seen by most on the outside. God is not one to be mocked.

ps - who is pajama boy?

"...all of mankind was born with innate natural moral law..."
If only that were true.


Pajama boy is the effete boy-man pic used by ObamaCare to 'entice' younger folks to sign up.....see him here:
Left Is Getting Desperate Over Pajama Boy - Fox Nation

mankind grew a larger brain due to their need to communicate with other humans.


Mankind was a co operating species.

that is what it took for mankind to survive the world.


Compassion is one of the emotions the brain was further wired to accomadate.


You want to pretend man is nothing but evil without god.



I don't have to pretend that to cling to ancient mans invented beliefs that he needed to explain the things he didn't understand about life....you do.



You have accepted a belief that is based on OLD outdated information.

that is your right


have at it.


DONT then think you can force the rest of us to do YOUR religions bidding.


the founders didn't like that idea and neither do I

 

[PoliticalChic]

man had morals long before he invented religion

So.....exactly how old are you?


Can a human being be good without reference to God? Sure….there could be good pagans….or bad religious folks. But God is necessary for morality to survive. Take as an example, a sadist who gets satisfaction from murdering children. If there is no God who declares that such an act is wrong, then my arguing such is simply my opinion versus that of the murderer. Without God, good and evil are a matter of taste.

mans mind invented religion.

there fore mans mind invented the morals that go along with religion huh?


there is no god.

man invented god and morals.


your just so prejudiced against what others believe that you call their morals unreal.

your just that prejudiced and stupid

Remember yesterday, when I told you how happy I was that you are back?
Well, this post of yours is why!


"Think where man's glory most begins and ends, and say my glory was I had such friends."
- William Butler Yeats



The opposite is just as true!
So, with you on the opposite side.....how can I ever be wrong???

 

[PainefulTruth]

mans mind invented religion.

there fore mans mind invented the morals that go along with religion huh?

there is no god.

man invented god and morals.

Man invented religion and morals to perpetuate those religions, though sometimes they actually happened on actual morality--the Golden Rule.

To say there is no god is to claim certain knowledge that the universe sprang into existence spontaneously. Even Dawkins and atheist scientists like Stephen Hawkins have had to back down and make allowances for the (equal) possibility of a deist/laissez-faire God.

There are genuine soft atheists, but most I'm familiar with are merely overreacting to the betrayal they experienced due to the religion they were indoctrinated into. They aren't moving toward anything, just away from it.

 

[vanityofvanitys]

The only two reasonable positions on God are laissez-faire deism and atheism. A reasonable person can be certain (today especially) that revealed gods and supernatural events are false because they are contradictory, unreasonable and completely lacking in evidence except for hearsay.

What are you talking about? Because the claims of Jesus and Muhammad contradict then they both have to be false??? Are you looking for an easy way out of being accountable to God?

And it makes sense that things would be set up that way, since it's how God would maintain our free will. This natural universe would serve no other purpose that God couldn't accomplish straight up. We must not know that God exists, and God couldn't set it up to indicate that "It" doesn't exist, because that would be a lie--God must be equivalent with Truth.

Too vague and from the looks of it, not very instructional at all.

Let’s see… you are saying that God purposefully made Himself, more or less, unknown to mankind so mankind could maintain its free will? This makes no sense to me? It also makes no sense to me that God would not reveal to His creation our purpose for existence? Or course He has, but the pride of man, more than anything else, rebels against the evidence (the way I see it). As a father, do you think it wise to let your child grow up completely on its own wits or intuitions or is it much preferred for the father to instruct the child in the ways of the world and what it is to be moral and just and merciful? The latter of course… our God is no different. It does not impede on free will in the least.

 

[PoliticalChic]

I would not say that reason has no moral basis since all of mankind was born with innate natural moral law (set by God of course). And our moral conscience is based on that kind of reason. "Reason," the word is too generic to define.

Pure science may have no moral compass, on that I would agree. The French Revolution was a seminal political ideology that propagated far more moral decay than moral or civil advancement, yes, I agree on that as well. When society refuses to acknowledge and reverence its creator, but instead ignore the thought, great perils await and sin flourishes. Intellectual pride has surely propagated this secular humanist attitude and psychology, and we all suffer because of it. I think our nation and present Western civilization is far more rotten out on the inside than can be seen by most on the outside. God is not one to be mocked.

ps - who is pajama boy?

"...all of mankind was born with innate natural moral law..."
If only that were true.


Pajama boy is the effete boy-man pic used by ObamaCare to 'entice' younger folks to sign up.....see him here:
Left Is Getting Desperate Over Pajama Boy - Fox Nation

mankind grew a larger brain due to their need to communicate with other humans.


Mankind was a co operating species.

that is what it took for mankind to survive the world.


Compassion is one of the emotions the brain was further wired to accomadate.


You want to pretend man is nothing but evil without god.



I don't have to pretend that to cling to ancient mans invented beliefs that he needed to explain the things he didn't understand about life....you do.



You have accepted a belief that is based on OLD outdated information.

that is your right


have at it.


DONT then think you can force the rest of us to do YOUR religions bidding.


the founders didn't like that idea and neither do I

"mankind grew a larger brain due to their need to communicate with other humans."

This is so very consistent with the rest of your posts.

It is known as Lamarckian evolution...

"A theory of biological evolution holding that species evolve by the inheritance of traits acquired or modified through the use or disuse of body parts."
Lamarckian evolution - definition of Lamarckian evolution by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.


The idea was cast aside ages ago.
"Scientific studies have proved this wrong and that's why his theory is no longer accepted."
Why was Lamarck's theory of evolution not accepted

You really should have stayed in school rather than running off to join that commune....

 

[PainefulTruth]

The only two reasonable positions on God are laissez-faire deism and atheism. A reasonable person can be certain (today especially) that revealed gods and supernatural events are false because they are contradictory, unreasonable and completely lacking in evidence except for hearsay.

What are you talking about? Because the claims of Jesus and Muhammad contradict then they both have to be false??? Are you looking for an easy way out of being accountable to God?

The gospels contradict themselves, but mostly Paul hijacks the Jewish Jesus movement and plants it into his pagan Mithraism. And for the record, I absolutely believe in objective, universal morality and Truth.

And it makes sense that things would be set up that way, since it's how God would maintain our free will. This natural universe would serve no other purpose that God couldn't accomplish straight up. We must not know that God exists, and God couldn't set it up to indicate that "It" doesn't exist, because that would be a lie--God must be equivalent with Truth.

Too vague and from the looks of it, not very instructional at all.

Let’s see… you are saying that God purposefully made Himself, more or less, unknown to mankind so mankind could maintain its free will? This makes no sense to me?

It makes sense, you just can't acknowledge the possibility that you've invested yourself into something that's wrong. That's the hardest part of keeping an open mind.

It also makes no sense to me that God would not reveal to His creation our purpose for existence?

It does if our gift of full self-awareness automatically makes us aware of the consequences of our immoral acts.

Or course He has, but the pride of man, more than anything else, rebels against the evidence (the way I see it).

The evidence is that there is no evidence for any supernatural act or revelation except hearsay. This doesn't argue against the existence of God, only against God's interaction in this natural universe.

As a father, do you think it wise to let your child grow up completely on its own wits or intuitions or is it much preferred for the father to instruct the child in the ways of the world and what it is to be moral and just and merciful?

The latter of course, based on the objective morality we already possess. Ours is to pursue that morality by making moral choices, not by lying to ourselves or adding false moralities.

The latter of course… our God is no different. It does not impede on free will in the least.

If God was standing in front of you, would you always do the same thing you'd do if God didn't exist? God (if It exists) set it up this way for our benefit (to know that our choices are our own), and for God's benefit (to know that our choices are our own).

 

[The Irish Ram]

Vanity makes a good point, why would God.............
God doesn't interact with nature. He invented nature. Nature interacts with God. God's plan for us was pure joy, and dominion over everything God made for us. He created man last because He wanted everything to be done and perfect for His child. He created a playground for us. He walked with us in the cool evenings. He loves His kids.

Being 100% just, and in accordance with giving us free will, the tree of knowledge of good and evil was made available to us. And God warned us to stay away from it's fruit. He never wanted us to know that evil even existed. Knowing our nature, and the power of evil, He knew before He created us that Adam would takes us all down.

Genesis 3:22
And Jehovah God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil;

And yet He still felt we were worth creating. So, before us, there was Jesus, who told our Father, that He would right Adam's wrong for us.
One man took us down. One man lifted us right back up.

Romans 5:17 For if by one man's offense death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.

The world I grew up in is not the same world my children grew up in. I grew up in a Christian country, safe and blessed. Then we started kicking God out of our schools and our lives.
I played Candyland when I was a kid. I bought Strangers and Dangers for my kids......

 

[AVG-JOE]

Moved to more appropriate forum.

 

[The Irish Ram]

More appropriate than the blessing God gave to those who bless Israel? And the blessings that are being removed? Is the understanding of our loss to be found in politics?

 

[NYcarbineer]

Wow, Western Civilization began to die before we eradicated the plague and smallpox from the earth? Before we split the atom and landed on the Moon?

The greatest threat to modern society is anti-intellectual drivel like this.

Funny, most rightwing nuts only want to return to the Gilded Age or thereabouts.

Now we have one longing for the halcyon days of antediluvian France, so to speak.

 

[Old Rocks]

Wow, Western Civilization began to die before we eradicated the plague and smallpox from the earth? Before we split the atom and landed on the Moon?

The greatest threat to modern society is anti-intellectual drivel like this.

The health of Western Civilization doesn't center on its scientific efforts...it depends upon the ideology which makes such science possible.

Just sayin'.

An ideology driven by Great Liberals like Franklin, Jefferson, Adams, Madison, and so many of our forefathers that valued truth over political idiocy.

 

[Old Rocks]

man had morals long before he invented religion

So.....exactly how old are you?


Can a human being be good without reference to God? Sure….there could be good pagans….or bad religious folks. But God is necessary for morality to survive. Take as an example, a sadist who gets satisfaction from murdering children. If there is no God who declares that such an act is wrong, then my arguing such is simply my opinion versus that of the murderer. Without God, good and evil are a matter of taste.

So where the hell was God at Auschvitz? You people constantly talk like your Diety is going to take care of all, when in fact, it takes care of nothing.

 

[Old Rocks]

Wow, Western Civilization began to die before we eradicated the plague and smallpox from the earth? Before we split the atom and landed on the Moon?

The greatest threat to modern society is anti-intellectual drivel like this.

Funny, most rightwing nuts only want to return to the Gilded Age or thereabouts.

Now we have one longing for the halcyon days of antediluvian France, so to speak.

Yep, PC would fit right in with Monarchs and feudalism. That is, as long as she was allowed to be an aristicrat. She cannot imagine herself being a peasant, which would most likely be the case.

 

[NYcarbineer]

"...all of mankind was born with innate natural moral law..."
If only that were true.


Pajama boy is the effete boy-man pic used by ObamaCare to 'entice' younger folks to sign up.....see him here:
Left Is Getting Desperate Over Pajama Boy - Fox Nation

mankind grew a larger brain due to their need to communicate with other humans.


Mankind was a co operating species.

that is what it took for mankind to survive the world.


Compassion is one of the emotions the brain was further wired to accomadate.


You want to pretend man is nothing but evil without god.



I don't have to pretend that to cling to ancient mans invented beliefs that he needed to explain the things he didn't understand about life....you do.



You have accepted a belief that is based on OLD outdated information.

that is your right


have at it.


DONT then think you can force the rest of us to do YOUR religions bidding.


the founders didn't like that idea and neither do I

"mankind grew a larger brain due to their need to communicate with other humans."

This is so very consistent with the rest of your posts.

It is known as Lamarckian evolution...

"A theory of biological evolution holding that species evolve by the inheritance of traits acquired or modified through the use or disuse of body parts."
Lamarckian evolution - definition of Lamarckian evolution by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.


The idea was cast aside ages ago.
"Scientific studies have proved this wrong and that's why his theory is no longer accepted."
Why was Lamarck's theory of evolution not accepted

You really should have stayed in school rather than running off to join that commune....

That's not what he said.

 

[NYcarbineer]

man had morals long before he invented religion

So.....exactly how old are you?


Can a human being be good without reference to God? Sure….there could be good pagans….or bad religious folks. But God is necessary for morality to survive. Take as an example, a sadist who gets satisfaction from murdering children. If there is no God who declares that such an act is wrong, then my arguing such is simply my opinion versus that of the murderer. Without God, good and evil are a matter of taste.

Since all of God's 'declarations' come from the minds of men in the first place,

with God, good and evil are also a matter of taste.

 

[Agit8r]

why do US cons make such shitty Christians?

Right-wing + Christian is a bad combination:

"In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and of adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before - the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross."
-- Adolf Hitler; from speech in Munich (April 12, 1922)

"I am also religious, profoundly religious on the inside, and I believe that Providence weighs human beings. Those who do not pass the trials imposed by Providence, who are broken by them, are not destined by Providence for greater things. It is a natural necessity that only the strong remain after this selection."
-- Adolf Hitler; from Munich Löwenbräukeller (November 8, 1943)