A bit more of your merciful god.

[Meriweather]

And And OBE does not imply that your consciousness leaves the body it involves a very particular type of dissociation that manifests in the brain.

That does not explain the type of OBEs that have been described in this thread. Someone states what did happen, and your response is similar to, Well, it must have happened a different way. Again, another person knowing better than the person who actually had the experience.

 

[Blues Man]

That does not explain the type of OBEs that have been described in this thread. Someone states what did happen, and your response is similar to, Well, it must have happened a different way. Again, another person knowing better than the person who actually had the experience.

I do not deny the experience. I disagree on the cause of the experience.

We know that OBEs can be induced by electrical stimulation of the brain.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa070010

So is it your opinion that these electrical stimulations force the consciousness out of the body? Wouldn't that be impossible because the material world cannot interact with the spirit world?

 

[Meriweather]

We know that OBEs can be induced by electrical stimulation of the brain.

Are you concluding that since electrical stimulation can induce OBE's, no other source of stimulation can do the same thing?

 

[Meriweather]

Wouldn't that be impossible because the material world cannot interact with the spirit world?

Ahh, but it is not impossible for what is spiritual to interact with what is material.

 

[hadit]

It's not difficult to imagine what's going on in another room. A dying man might very well see an image of his wife or friends and think the location is another room

And like I said your anecdotes do not prove any type of cause for the experiences.

I don't doubt people experienced something I happen to think that there is no need for supernatural explanations.

The problem with NDE testimony is that the person having them is not a good witness for reasons I gave earlier

Again you seem either unable to grasp what I am saying or are deliberately trying to avoid it. I am saying that people have reported ACCURATELY what was going on around them or in the next room while they were dead or comatose on the table. NOT they imagined they saw an image that didn't reflect reality, they accurately reported WHO was in the other room, WHERE they were sitting and WHAT they were saying. These cannot be simply things made up in the patients' minds.

Let's put it this way. If you put someone in a closed room in a building they've never been in before, then put 5 people in another room down the hall and the first person later told you that while he was in the room he saw some people in the other room, you would say, "That's great, you imagined it", right? Now, what if he told you how many people were in the room, where they were sitting, what they were wearing and what they were saying, and it accurately matched a video you had taken of that room? This is very important and you need to be completely honest. Don't try to dance around it, don't mumble something about medical causes, what would be your reaction?

Likewise, if the first person told you that there was a shoe up on the roof of the building (remember, he's never been there before), and you went up there and found that shoe exactly where the person said it was, you would, if you were honest, believe that the person actually saw it. Again, this is all contingent on you being honest.

Back to real life, if a blind person reports that she saw not only everything that was being done to revive her, but that she saw a pen fall out of a doctor's pocket, correctly identified where it rolled to and where he picked it back up, what would you say? Remember, she's blind and saw these things.

Of course, you could invent conspiracies about having multiple people poised and ready to go to feed the patient information or to place objects where they would later be found, but that's kind of ridiculous because people don't know when they're going to die on the operating table, and in many cases the doctors and nurses would have to be in on the whole thing.

I'll give you link to get you started because I don't trust that you will actually do any research on your own. Now don't think that this is the total of the experiences people have had. It's just a snippet.

5 Credible Near Death Experience Stories (Peer-Reviewed)

 

[hadit]

I already told you I saw the room and myself from above.

Out of body experiences are also well documented. I was suffering some pretty severe trauma and was under the influence of some powerful drugs at the time. Drugs like ketamine are reported to induce OBE.

There was nothing supernatural about it.

I know I'm digging for details, but it's important. Were you unconscious when they brought you into the room? IOW, was your NDE the first time you actually saw the contents of the room and the people in it? It's important because if you WERE unconscious before you entered the room, you SAW the room and the people in it without your brain having any way to accurately build the scene. IOW, had you sad you saw dancing unicorns in a field of daisies, I'd probably agree it was caused by a drug fueled hallucination. If, OTOH, you ACCURATELY saw things that were impossible for you to see, you have to agree something a whole lot more than a brain making things up was going on.

 

[Blues Man]

Are you concluding that since electrical stimulation can induce OBE's, no other source of stimulation can do the same thing?

I'm saying that there is no reason to think it's a mystical cause when we know that mundane causes exist

 

[Blues Man]

Ahh, but it is not impossible for what is spiritual to interact with what is material.

If sprit did interact with the physical there would be evidence.

 

[Blues Man]

I know I'm digging for details, but it's important. Were you unconscious when they brought you into the room? IOW, was your NDE the first time you actually saw the contents of the room and the people in it? It's important because if you WERE unconscious before you entered the room, you SAW the room and the people in it without your brain having any way to accurately build the scene. IOW, had you sad you saw dancing unicorns in a field of daisies, I'd probably agree it was caused by a drug fueled hallucination. If, OTOH, you ACCURATELY saw things that were impossible for you to see, you have to agree something a whole lot more than a brain making things up was going on.

I didn;t say it was an NDE I said it was an out of body experience

You want to get nit picky on details but you don't read what i write first

 

[Blues Man]

Again you seem either unable to grasp what I am saying or are deliberately trying to avoid it. I am saying that people have reported ACCURATELY what was going on around them or in the next room while they were dead or comatose on the table. NOT they imagined they saw an image that didn't reflect reality, they accurately reported WHO was in the other room, WHERE they were sitting and WHAT they were saying. These cannot be simply things made up in the patients' minds.

Let's put it this way. If you put someone in a closed room in a building they've never been in before, then put 5 people in another room down the hall and the first person later told you that while he was in the room he saw some people in the other room, you would say, "That's great, you imagined it", right? Now, what if he told you how many people were in the room, where they were sitting, what they were wearing and what they were saying, and it accurately matched a video you had taken of that room? This is very important and you need to be completely honest. Don't try to dance around it, don't mumble something about medical causes, what would be your reaction?

Likewise, if the first person told you that there was a shoe up on the roof of the building (remember, he's never been there before), and you went up there and found that shoe exactly where the person said it was, you would, if you were honest, believe that the person actually saw it. Again, this is all contingent on you being honest.

Back to real life, if a blind person reports that she saw not only everything that was being done to revive her, but that she saw a pen fall out of a doctor's pocket, correctly identified where it rolled to and where he picked it back up, what would you say? Remember, she's blind and saw these things.

Of course, you could invent conspiracies about having multiple people poised and ready to go to feed the patient information or to place objects where they would later be found, but that's kind of ridiculous because people don't know when they're going to die on the operating table, and in many cases the doctors and nurses would have to be in on the whole thing.

I'll give you link to get you started because I don't trust that you will actually do any research on your own. Now don't think that this is the total of the experiences people have had. It's just a snippet.

5 Credible Near Death Experience S

Again you seem either unable to grasp what I am saying or are deliberately trying to avoid it. I am saying that people have reported ACCURATELY what was going on around them or in the next room while they were dead or comatose on the table. NOT they imagined they saw an image that didn't reflect reality, they accurately reported WHO was in the other room, WHERE they were sitting and WHAT they were saying. These cannot be simply things made up in the patients' minds.

Let's put it this way. If you put someone in a closed room in a building they've never been in before, then put 5 people in another room down the hall and the first person later told you that while he was in the room he saw some people in the other room, you would say, "That's great, you imagined it", right? Now, what if he told you how many people were in the room, where they were sitting, what they were wearing and what they were saying, and it accurately matched a video you had taken of that room? This is very important and you need to be completely honest. Don't try to dance around it, don't mumble something about medical causes, what would be your reaction?

Likewise, if the first person told you that there was a shoe up on the roof of the building (remember, he's never been there before), and you went up there and found that shoe exactly where the person said it was, you would, if you were honest, believe that the person actually saw it. Again, this is all contingent on you being honest.

Back to real life, if a blind person reports that she saw not only everything that was being done to revive her, but that she saw a pen fall out of a doctor's pocket, correctly identified where it rolled to and where he picked it back up, what would you say? Remember, she's blind and saw these things.

Of course, you could invent conspiracies about having multiple people poised and ready to go to feed the patient information or to place objects where they would later be found, but that's kind of ridiculous because people don't know when they're going to die on the operating table, and in many cases the doctors and nurses would have to be in on the whole thing.

I'll give you link to get you started because I don't trust that you will actually do any research on your own. Now don't think that this is the total of the experiences people have had. It's just a snippet.

5 Credible Near Death Experience Stories (Peer-Reviewed)

Guy in a coma.

Coma patients are not brain dead and all their sensory organs still work. It's well known that a familiar voice is one of the best recovery tools for coma patients.

I think the testimony of a child is always questionable. He may have seen pictures before and not remembered

Life flashing before the eyes isn't mystical it's just a cascade of memories

And if a person was blind their entire life then she wouldn't know what a pen looked like, would have no concept of colors etc.

That's no different than a person who is deaf from birth telling you they heard trumpets being played.

 

[surada]

What Does the Bible Say About Government?

Bible verses about Government

www.openbible.info

 

[Meriweather]

If sprit did interact with the physical there would be evidence.

No. There would be testimony.

 

[Blues Man]

No. There would be testimony.

There would be measurable effects on the body.

There would be an unexplained burst of sensory input at the very least.

if a spirit can make a body see, hear, feel etc then the input of those can be measured just like the electrical signals that we can produce that cause OBEs.

And person can consciously cause the same effects vis meditation, sensory deprivation or drugs

And besides the very worst type of testimony is eyewitness testimony. Just ask any cop

 

[The Irish Ram]

The nephilim weren't wiped out.. neither were the Canaanite.

Those that were on the earth at that time were. They were hybrids. But angels, fallen or not, are eternal, they did not die. Some of the worst were chained, but not all:
“When human beings began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, the sons of God saw that the daughters of humans were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose … The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them.

And also afterward.. < When God commanded an army to wipe out a whole city, men, women, children, it wasn't out of
cruelty, it was for the sake of humanity. But the order wasn't always followed.

 

[surada]

Those that were on the earth at that time were. They were hybrids. But fallen angels are eternal, they did not die. Some of the worst were chained, but not all:
“When human beings began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, the sons of God saw that the daughters of humans were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose … The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them.

And also afterward.. < When God command an army to wipe out the whole city, men, women, children, it wasn't out of
cruelty, it was for the sake of humanity. But the order wasn't always followed.

The global flood is a myth. Never happened.

 

[The Irish Ram]

And yet it did...

 

[Meriweather]

And person can consciously cause the same effects vis meditation, sensory deprivation or drugs

I am speaking of spiritual experiences, not OBE.

 

[BreezeWood]

There would be measurable effects on the body.

There would be an unexplained burst of sensory input at the very least.

if a spirit can make a body see, hear, feel etc then the input of those can be measured just like the electrical signals that we can produce that cause OBEs.

And person can consciously cause the same effects vis meditation, sensory deprivation or drugs

And besides the very worst type of testimony is eyewitness testimony. Just ask any cop

Ahh, but it is not impossible for what is spiritual to interact with what is material.

If sprit did interact with the physical there would be evidence.

if a spirit can make a body see, hear, feel etc then the input of those can be measured just like the electrical signals that we can produce that cause OBEs.

physiology is itself a metaphysical substance that dissolves into the atmosphere when it no longer functions in its physical state demonstrating both properties and a spiritual content that directs its terrestrial existence that may or may not have separable qualities for its own detached existence that may be the actual next step for evolutionary beings.

 

[Colin norris]

physiology is itself a metaphysical substance that dissolves into the atmosphere when it no longer functions in its physical state

where's the evidence of that?

demonstrating both properties and a spiritual content that directs its terrestrial existence that may or may not have

mays do not signify certainty.

separable qualities for its own detached existence that may be the actual next step for evolutionary beings.

Rubbish. There is nothing leaves the body after death nor is there evidence for it.
Death is not a step for anything other than the end of you. Grow up.

 

[Blues Man]

I am speaking of spiritual experiences, not OBE.

So now an OBE isn't spiritual? WHat about NDE ?