911 call shows chaos before NYC shooting

[Gunny]

By TOM HAYS, Associated Press Writer
1 hour, 54 minutes ago

NEW YORK - An unarmed, mentally ill teenager could be heard cursing and yelling "I've got a gun!" during a frantic 911 call made by his exasperated mother before police arrived and killed him with a 20-bullet barrage, according to a tape of the call released Tuesday.

Police officials said that although the woman had said her son didn't have a gun, Khiel Coppin gave five officers no choice but to open fire after he suddenly charged them outside her home with a black object in his hand. It turned out to be a hairbrush.

Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly said the 18-year-old pointed the brush at officers "as if he were aiming a gun," and repeatedly ignored repeated orders to "stop, show his hands and get on the ground."

The district attorney is investigating, but Kelly said officers reasonably believed Coppin was about to use deadly force, and that their response appeared to be within NYPD guidelines.

more ...http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071114/ap_on_re_us/police_teen_shot

Thoughts?

 

[jillian]

Suicide by cop?

 

[Gunny]

Suicide by cop?

I don't know. The article says the young man was mentally ill, but not in what way.

I also wonder at what distance he was from the cops that they thought a hairbrush was a handgun.

And I REALLY question shooting him 20 times. That's 20 hits ... no one's counted the shots fired that missed.

 

[jillian]

I don't know. The article says the young man was mentally ill, but not in what way.

I also wonder at what distance he was from the cops that they thought a hairbrush was a handgun.

And I REALLY question shooting him 20 times. That's 20 hits ... no one's counted the shots fired that missed.

They were surmising suicide by cop when I listened to the news today. The mother said he had a gun and the cops said the kid was saying he had a gun. I don't know any more than that either. Now the mother is changing her story. But this is the 911 call transcript

Date and time: 11/12/07, 7:05 p.m.

Duration: 1 minute, 17 seconds.

911 operator: "Police operator 1-2-3-9. Where is the emergency?"

Female caller: "Hi. I need someone to come to 590 Gates Avenue, please."

911 operator: "590 Gates Avenue in Brooklyn?"

Female caller: "Yes."

911 operator: "Between where?"

Background male voice: "I got a gun and I'm gonna shoot you."

Female caller: "Throop and Garvey. Marcus Garvey."

911 operator: "Yeah."

Together: "Between Marcus Garvey and Throop."

911 operator: "What happened there?"

Background male voice: "I've got a (expletive) gun!"

Female caller: "This ... you know ... this kid is a problem. You can even hear him?"

Background male voice: "Take that, (expletive). I've got a gun."

911 operator: "Who is that?"

Female caller: "That's supposed to be my son!"

Background male voice: "I've got a (expletive) gun!"

911 operator: "That's your son?"

Female caller: "Got no respect. You know ... I can't deal with this tonight."

Background male voice: "I gotta gun."

911 operator: "He, he say he gotta gun?"

Female caller: "Um, huh ... You, you heard him. I didn't say. You heard it outta his mouth."

911 operator: "He um ... didn't injure you, right?"

Female caller: "But he kept on tonight with this situation here. I'm not sleeping here with this behavior."

Background male voice: "(Expletive) police!"

911 operator: "Alright ... what apartment you in?"

Female caller: "It's 1D, but you can ring the neighbor's apartment."

911 operator: "On the first floor?"

Female caller: "Yeah."

911 operator: "Ring bell (neighbor's apartment.)"

Female caller: "Um, huh."

911 operator: "To get in?"

Female caller: "Yeah."

911 operator: "Ok. Give me the name and number there."

Female caller: "It's (neighbor's name and number)."

911 operator: "Alright. I'm gonna let them know ... 590 Gates ... Apartment 1D, on the first floor."

Female caller: "Ring bell (neighbor's apartment) to get in."

911 operator: "They'll be there as soon as possible."

Female caller: "Thank you."

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2007/11/13/2007-11-13_transcript_of_911_call_take_that__ive_go.html

I figure we'll know more as the investigation continues.

 

[Gunny]

They were surmising suicide by cop when I listened to the news today. The mother said he had a gun and the cops said the kid was saying he had a gun. I don't know any more than that either. Now the mother is changing her story. But this is the 911 call transcript



http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2007/11/13/2007-11-13_transcript_of_911_call_take_that__ive_go.html

I figure we'll know more as the investigation continues.

I originally heard the mother reported he had a gun, then read the article that said she said he didn't. Since I heard it first word-of-mouth, I just figured the person that told me got it wrong.

We'll see what happens. I STILL question being shot 20 times even if he did have a gun. That's some undisciplined, sloppy shooting, and around apartments, could have some deadly consequences for more than just the suspect.

 

[Diuretic]

Sounds like a pile-on by the cops. That's bloody ridiculous.

 

[Gunny]

Sounds like a pile-on by the cops. That's bloody ridiculous.

On the surface it does, but I'm going to reserve judgement until we can see all the facts. I really can't imagine the circumstance which would warrant 20 hits (which you know means 50-75 shots were taken). If nothing else, I'd say their marksmanship sucks bigtime.

 

[Annie]

On the surface it does, but I'm going to reserve judgement until we can see all the facts. I really can't imagine the circumstance which would warrant 20 hits (which you know means 50-75 shots were taken). If nothing else, I'd say their marksmanship sucks bigtime.

Actually it looks like all shots fired hit him:

http://www.newstimes.com/latestnews/ci_7458977

...

Coppin's stepfather, Reginald Owens, was quoted in Wednesday editions of the Daily News as saying, "He didn't have to be killed." Police said two of the shooters were Hispanic and three were white.

They were identified in Wednesday editions of the News and The New York Times as four officers and a plainclothes detective, all with at least 10 years of experience.

One of the officers fired six shots, while another fired five and two fired four; the detective, the only one in plainclothes, fired one shot, the papers reported.

The medical examiner said bullets hit Coppin in the chest, hip, forearm, knee, thigh and ankle, the papers reported...

 

[Diuretic]

Agreed, we all need to suspend judgement to a degree just out of a sense of fairness but I would think any official conducting an inquiry would ignore the noise from the sidelines and focus on the event, I'm sure the investigators will.

I was thinking about this earlier. I've never actually had to pull the trigger (for which I'm eternally grateful but if I had to I have no doubt I would have done so), but I've been damn close a couple of times, again, thankfully,only a couple. But shooting discipline is still important and I wonder if it's broken down here.

 

[M14 Shooter]

We'll see what happens. I STILL question being shot 20 times even if he did have a gun. That's some undisciplined, sloppy shooting, and around apartments, could have some deadly consequences for more than just the suspect.

Did they say he suffered 20 hits or that 20 shots were fired?
Number of shots is/can be determined by the number of rounds expended from the magazines.

 

[Annie]

Did they say he suffered 20 hits or that 20 shots were fired?
Number of shots is/can be determined by the number of rounds expended from the magazines.

20 shots were fired. From the same article:

Police said eight of the 20 bullets struck Coppin, who was pronounced dead at a hospital.

 

[M14 Shooter]

20 shots were fired. From the same article:

8 for 20? At what range?

So much for the argument that only the police have the training and skill necessary to safely and effectively carry guns.

 

[Annie]

8 for 20? At what range?

So much for the argument that only the police have the training and skill necessary to safely and effectively carry guns.

Pretty close to Gunny's ratio guess. What I noticed is that so many limbs were hit, police are taught to shoot to kill. Ankle? What was up with that?

 

[Shogun]

The officers backed up and ordered him to stop, police said. When the teen refused and kept approaching them, they began shooting from a distance of 5 to 7 feet, police said. Police said eight of the 20 bullets struck Coppin, who was pronounced dead at a hospital.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/P/POLICE_TEEN_SHOT?SITE=WIFON&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT



It's a shame that this happened. mental illness can result in travesty. I'd take a long, hard look at the mother. she called because she felt threatened and totally lacked control of her son. He had knives and, from the trasncript, claimed to have a gun. The kid did not cooperate with the cops. The cops could not predict that he had a comb given the circumstance. It's a shame but I can't blame the cops for this. There are occasions of improper police behaviour and this isn't one of them.

just my opinion.

 

[Bern80]

The officers backed up and ordered him to stop, police said. When the teen refused and kept approaching them, they began shooting from a distance of 5 to 7 feet, police said. Police said eight of the 20 bullets struck Coppin, who was pronounced dead at a hospital.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/P/POLICE_TEEN_SHOT?SITE=WIFON&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT



It's a shame that this happened. mental illness can result in travesty. I'd take a long, hard look at the mother. she called because she felt threatened and totally lacked control of her son. He had knives and, from the trasncript, claimed to have a gun. The kid did not cooperate with the cops. The cops could not predict that he had a comb given the circumstance. It's a shame but I can't blame the cops for this. There are occasions of improper police behaviour and this isn't one of them.

just my opinion.

5-7 feet and they couldn't tell he was brandishing a hairbrush?

 

[CorpMediaSux]

My question is, why did they have to slaughter the kid? Why couldn't they have fired and injured him. Disabled him, stopped him from approaching? It just doesn't make sense. We're always making excuses for the police, but at the end of the day more and more unarmed Black men are killed every year by "law enforcement." Why are we still here?

 

[jillian]

My question is, why did they have to slaughter the kid? Why couldn't they have fired and injured him. Disabled him, stopped him from approaching? It just doesn't make sense. We're always making excuses for the police, but at the end of the day more and more unarmed Black men are killed every year by "law enforcement." Why are we still here?

I don't like it either. And, you know, it's not the first time something like this has happened in NYC. But shooting to wound isn't what they're taught to do because IF he really had a gun, wounding him wouldn't have kept him from using it.

I'm trying to look at both sides and figure I'll wait til the investigation is done to make any further judgments.

 

[Paulie]

Thoughts?

One kid running at multiple cops, with something in his hand that isn't even positively identified, and they fire 20 bullets into him?

Whatever happened to non-fatally wounding your suspect so you can apprehend them?

 

[M14 Shooter]

Whatever happened to non-fatally wounding your suspect so you can apprehend them?

Thsi doesnt exist.
You shoot to stop. That you need to shoot at all necessitates that deadly force is justified, and if the person being shot dies as a function of the deadly force, his death was justified.

I'm not saying that was the case here, just that there is no 'shoot to wound'.

 

[Paulie]

But shooting to wound isn't what they're taught to do because IF he really had a gun, wounding him wouldn't have kept him from using it.

That couldn't possibly be known, though. One shot to his knee, and he could just drop down in agony and never even attempt to continue his perceived assault. At least then, when they realize it was just a hair brush, the cops can go on about their business knowing they didn't kill a kid who posed no real physical threat. If he HAD a gun, and after being shot in the leg, he STILL didn't cooperate, THEN i think it's ok to shoot to kill.

I'm trying to look at both sides and figure I'll wait til the investigation is done to make any further judgments.

Internal investigations are such bullshit though. In my neighborhood last year, 2 teenage girls took the car to the store around the corner to get milk for their mom, and on their way back, they were coming through a 4-way stop intersection, and a state trooper doing 90 miles an hour (25 mph zone, btw) didn't stop at his stop sign, and t-boned the girls' car, killing them both. He claims he was in pursuit during a call, but dispatch records show no calls for that area during that time. It's STILL being investigated, and it's been over a year. People around here are outraged about it, because had it been some regular old joe, they'd have been charged, prosecuted, and sentenced by now.