75th Anniversary

[Unkotare]

This is what liberal revisionist history looks like

its always anti American and pro soviet

Hell, I would be happy if they could even explain why Japan would surrender at the terms that apparently Mac had short of an invasion. ... That they were willing to throw up their hands and surrender, before a single Allied soldier landed on their beaches. It makes absolutely no sense, yet they refuse to even discuss this illogic of their claims.
....

That is not a question of logic. I hope you understand the concept of logic at least somewhat better than your buddy there. It is a question of intention and motivation. If you cannot conceive of a ruler considering options in the best interests of his people when his nation's military had been decimated, cut off from vital natural resources, and facing mass starvation, you are clearly lacking in reason and morality.

 

[Mushroom]

So we can take the word of some nobody on the internet, or General MacArthur. Hmmm......

Tell me, why was the MacArthur proposal not forwarded through the Soviet Embassy in July 1945, instead of the one that basically said the Allies would stop attacking if they left Manchuria?

If that was a real proposal, then why did the Japanese not send it to the Swiss? Or the Swedes? Or the Soviets? Who sent it to Mac, when, and how?

This is the difference, I use logic to apply reasoning and common sense to something. I do not just latch onto it blindly just because I want to believe it.

But fine. I will roll over onto my back and beg for forgiveness to you and the Almighty Mac. As soon as it can be shown who talked to him about this, when, and by what authority they had to commit the Japanese government to that agreement.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

So we can take the word of some nobody on the internet, or General MacArthur. Hmmm......

Tell me, why was the MacArthur proposal not forwarded through the Soviet Embassy in July 1945, instead of the one that basically said the Allies would stop attacking if they left Manchuria?

If that was a real proposal, then why did the Japanese not send it to the Swiss? Or the Swedes? Or the Soviets? Who sent it to Mac, when, and how?

This is the difference, I use logic to apply reasoning and common sense to something. I do not just latch onto it blindly just because I want to believe it.

But fine. I will roll over onto my back and beg for forgiveness to you and the Almighty Mac. As soon as it can be shown who talked to him about this, when, and by what authority they had to commit the Japanese government to that agreement.

He doesn't answer those questions cause they prove he is full of crap.

 

[Mushroom]

He doesn't answer those questions cause they prove he is full of crap.

Of course not. He will probably just post the exact same decades old new article. Not even caring that I already ripped it to shreds over it's silliness, and am basically tired of pointing out it's gigantic flaws and inconsistencies.

 

[Unkotare]

I guess Leahy was lying too. I guess we should take the word over some nobody on the internet over his.

"The top American military leaders who fought World War II, much to the surprise of many who are not aware of the record, were quite clear that the atomic bomb was unnecessary, that Japan was on the verge of surrender, and—for many—that the destruction of large numbers of civilians was immoral. Most were also conservatives, not liberals. Adm. William Leahy, Truman’s chief of staff, wrote in his 1950 memoir I Was There that “the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender.… In being the first to use it, we…adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make war in that fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children.” "

The War Was Won Before Hiroshima—And the Generals Who Dropped the Bomb Knew It

Seventy years after the bombing, will Americans face the brutal truth?

www.thenation.com

 

[Unkotare]

I guess General Arnold was lying too. I guess we should take the word of some nobody on the internet over his.

" The commanding general of the US Army Air Forces, Henry “Hap” Arnold, gave a strong indication of his views in a public statement 11 days after Hiroshima was attacked. Asked on August 17 by a New York Times reporter whether the atomic bomb caused Japan to surrender, Arnold said that “the Japanese position was hopeless even before the first atomic bomb fell, because the Japanese had lost control of their own air.” "

 

[Unkotare]

I guess Nimitz and Halsey were both lying too. I guess we should take the musings of some nobody on the internet over their words.

" Fleet Adm. Chester Nimitz, the commander in chief of the Pacific Fleet, stated in a public address at the Washington Monument two months after the bombings that “the atomic bomb played no decisive part, from a purely military standpoint, in the defeat of Japan.” Adm. William “Bull” Halsey Jr., the commander of the US Third Fleet, stated publicly in 1946 that “the first atomic bomb was an unnecessary experiment…. It was a mistake to ever drop it…. [The scientists] had this toy, and they wanted to try it out, so they dropped it…” "

 

[RetiredGySgt]

You can post opinions all you want but I notice you can not back your claim of a Japanese Government offer to surrender with a link or source.

 

[Unkotare]

I guess Eisenhower and LeMay were both lying too. I guess we should take the desperate attempt at prejudicial self-affirmation from some nobody on the internet over their words.

" Gen. Dwight Eisenhower stated in his memoirs that when notified by Secretary of War Henry Stimson of the decision to use atomic weapons, he “voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives.” He later publicly declared, “It wasn’t necessary to hit them with that awful thing.” Even the famous hawk Maj. Gen. Curtis LeMay, the head of the Twenty-First Bomber Command, went public the month after the bombing, telling the press that “the atomic bomb had nothing to do with the end of the war at all.” "

 

[Unkotare]

" The record is quite clear: From the perspective of an overwhelming number of key contemporary leaders in the US military, the dropping of atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki was not a matter of military necessity. American intelligence had broken the Japanese codes, knew the Japanese government was trying to negotiate surrender through Moscow, and had long advised that the expected early August Russian declaration of war, along with assurances that Japan’s emperor would be allowed to stay as a figurehead, would bring surrender long before the first step in a November US invasion could begin. "

 

[Unkotare]

" History is rarely simple, and confronting it head-on, with critical honesty, is often quite painful. Myths, no matter how oversimplified or blatantly false, are too often far more likely to be embraced than inconvenient and unsettling truths. "

 

[RetiredGySgt]

" History is rarely simple, and confronting it head-on, with critical honesty, is often quite painful. Myths, no matter how oversimplified or blatantly false, are too often far more likely to be embraced than inconvenient and unsettling truths. "

And yet the reality is YOU claimed Japan tried to surrender before the Bombs and can not provide a single link to any such attempt by the Japanese Government. And the facts remain that after 2 atomic bombs and an INVASION by the Soviets the Japanese Government REFUSED to surrender and it took the Emperor to order it AND then a Coup was attempted to stop that.

 

[Unkotare]

https://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2016-05-27/its-time-to-confront-painful-truths-about-using-the-atomic-bombs-on-japan

 

[RetiredGySgt]

https://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2016-05-27/its-time-to-confront-painful-truths-about-using-the-atomic-bombs-on-japan

That does not claim the Japanese Government offered ANY surrender.

 

[Unkotare]

" Telegrams going back and forth between Japanese officials in Tokyo and Moscow made it clear that the Japanese were seeking an honorable way to end what they had started. Retention of the emperor, as MacArthur noted, was the main stumbling block to surrender. Truman was well aware of the situation. He referred to the intercepted July 18 cable as the "telegram from the Jap emperor asking for peace." His close advisors concurred. "

 

[RetiredGySgt]

" Telegrams going back and forth between Japanese officials in Tokyo and Moscow made it clear that the Japanese were seeking an honorable way to end what they had started. Retention of the emperor, as MacArthur noted, was the main stumbling block to surrender. Truman was well aware of the situation. He referred to the intercepted July 18 cable as the "telegram from the Jap emperor asking for peace." His close advisors concurred. "

I have LINKED to the Japanese cables ALL Japan offered was a CEASEFIRE, return to 41 start lines no occupation no concession in China and no consequences for their war. Further in 45 all the Japanese offered the Soviets was an alliance against the US in the future if the Soviets got them a ceasefire.

 

[Mushroom]

" Telegrams going back and forth between Japanese officials in Tokyo and Moscow made it clear that the Japanese were seeking an honorable way to end what they had started.

We have talked about this ad nauseum. Honorable to them. They keep all land captured unless they decided to return it, allies leave all land captured, no demilitarization, no war crime trials. You yourself even posted over and over again a ling which said they were only willing to consider giving up Manchuria.

By that time, nobody gave a damn what they thought. But I guess you think that was a fair way to end the war? Just pretend it never happened? Even Stalin and his ministers all think they were crazy. And coming from Stalin, that is saying something.

 

[Mushroom]

I have LINKED to the Japanese cables ALL Japan offered was a CEASEFIRE, return to 41 start lines no occupation no concession in China and no consequences for their war. Further in 45 all the Japanese offered the Soviets was an alliance against the US in the future if the Soviets got them a ceasefire.

Oh, they also said they would stop fighting for Manchuko.

Which at least on paper was it's own independent nation, with it's own independent government and military. I have no idea what Emperor Puyi thought of that, I bet they never even bothered to tell him that.

 

[Unkotare]

archive.ph

Can you read English?

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

A mere ceasefire was not acceptable to the Allies

it had to be total surrender

Yep.