You are on your own, California

[Nik]

Most toll roads are profitable.

Most roads aren't toll roads, and hence lose money. Just as many light rail projects do.

wrong, roads are paid for by fuel taxes

And light rail is paid for by other taxes...

 

[Toro]

Find me a road that is profitable.

Why is it ok if the government pays for roads, but not for light rail?

Most toll roads are profitable.

Most roads aren't toll roads, and hence lose money. Just as many light rail projects do.

I would generally agree with this. Most roads would lose money if you did an actual cost/benefit analysis on each road. However, the infrastructure is critical to economic and suburban development.

The government is critical to the development of roads because of what is known in economics as the free-rider problem.

Free rider problem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But that does not necessarily mean that light rail is critical to economic and urban/suburban development. It might be, but the analogy to roads does not always hold.

 

[DiveCon]

Find me a road that is profitable.

Why is it ok if the government pays for roads, but not for light rail?

the cost for roads is in the gas tax
which also pays for MANY OTHER transportation things like ferry's, subways, and bus systems

now, you show me a light rail system that is self sustaining(the better word than profitable)

Wait...so its ok for roads to be paid for via taxes, but not light rail systems? Why is that?

because the roads are paid for by the people that use em(feul tax)
the rail would be paid for by people that DONT use it

 

[Nik]

Most toll roads are profitable.

Most roads aren't toll roads, and hence lose money. Just as many light rail projects do.

I would generally agree with this. Most roads would lose money if you did an actual cost/benefit analysis on each road. However, the infrastructure is critical to economic and suburban development.

The government is critical to the development of roads because of what is known in economics as the free-rider problem.

Free rider problem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But that does not necessarily mean that light rail is critical to economic and urban/suburban development. It might be, but the analogy to roads does not always hold.

A method of transportation is critical to urban/suburban development. Could be cars, could be busses, could be light rail/subway/whatever. Doesn't need to be any of those, but for whatever reason we've chosen cars.

 

[DiveCon]

Most roads aren't toll roads, and hence lose money. Just as many light rail projects do.

I would generally agree with this. Most roads would lose money if you did an actual cost/benefit analysis on each road. However, the infrastructure is critical to economic and suburban development.

The government is critical to the development of roads because of what is known in economics as the free-rider problem.

Free rider problem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But that does not necessarily mean that light rail is critical to economic and urban/suburban development. It might be, but the analogy to roads does not always hold.

A method of transportation is critical to urban/suburban development. Could be cars, could be busses, could be light rail/subway/whatever. Doesn't need to be any of those, but for whatever reason we've chosen cars.

then make the fares for using that system cover the costs
dont tax everyone so you can get a cheap ride

 

[Nik]

the cost for roads is in the gas tax
which also pays for MANY OTHER transportation things like ferry's, subways, and bus systems

now, you show me a light rail system that is self sustaining(the better word than profitable)

Wait...so its ok for roads to be paid for via taxes, but not light rail systems? Why is that?

because the roads are paid for by the people that use em(feul tax)
the rail would be paid for by people that DONT use it

Austin Contrarian: Do roads pay for themselves?

Applying this methodology, revealed that no road pays for itself in gas taxes and fees. For example, in Houston, the 15 miles of SH 99 from I-10 to US 290 will cost $1 billion to build and maintain over its lifetime, while only generating $162 million in gas taxes. That gives a tax gap ratio of .16, which means that the real gas tax rate people would need to pay on this segment of road to completely pay for it would be $2.22 per gallon.

This is just one example, but there is not one road in Texas that pays for itself based on the tax system of today. Some roads pay for about half their true cost, but most roads we have analyzed pay for considerably less.

MPR: Road costs more often being paid by property taxes

Many Minnesotans have seen their property tax bill for this year and are not happy with the news. On average the increase in property taxes is 10 percent. Most of the increase is for public schools. A smaller but steadily growing amount of property tax revenue is spent on transportation. That surprises some taxpayers who think the gasoline tax and license tabs pay for the state's highways, bridges and streets. In fact they don't come close.

First 2 examples I found in a cursory search. Gas taxes do not come even close to paying for roads. Unless your willing to start paying $2.22 a gallon in taxes at the pump?

 

[Toro]

A method of transportation is critical to urban/suburban development. Could be cars, could be busses, could be light rail/subway/whatever. Doesn't need to be any of those, but for whatever reason we've chosen cars.

We've chosen cars because America is a very big place. Rail is most economical in very dense urban settings. It is very uneconomical in vast expansive settings.

 

[Nik]

I would generally agree with this. Most roads would lose money if you did an actual cost/benefit analysis on each road. However, the infrastructure is critical to economic and suburban development.

The government is critical to the development of roads because of what is known in economics as the free-rider problem.

Free rider problem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But that does not necessarily mean that light rail is critical to economic and urban/suburban development. It might be, but the analogy to roads does not always hold.

A method of transportation is critical to urban/suburban development. Could be cars, could be busses, could be light rail/subway/whatever. Doesn't need to be any of those, but for whatever reason we've chosen cars.

then make the fares for using that system cover the costs
dont tax everyone so you can get a cheap ride

I'm down with that. So lets increase the gas tax to $2.22 a gallon then.

 

[Toro]

Wait...so its ok for roads to be paid for via taxes, but not light rail systems? Why is that?

because the roads are paid for by the people that use em(feul tax)
the rail would be paid for by people that DONT use it

Austin Contrarian: Do roads pay for themselves?

Applying this methodology, revealed that no road pays for itself in gas taxes and fees. For example, in Houston, the 15 miles of SH 99 from I-10 to US 290 will cost $1 billion to build and maintain over its lifetime, while only generating $162 million in gas taxes. That gives a tax gap ratio of .16, which means that the real gas tax rate people would need to pay on this segment of road to completely pay for it would be $2.22 per gallon.

This is just one example, but there is not one road in Texas that pays for itself based on the tax system of today. Some roads pay for about half their true cost, but most roads we have analyzed pay for considerably less.

MPR: Road costs more often being paid by property taxes

Many Minnesotans have seen their property tax bill for this year and are not happy with the news. On average the increase in property taxes is 10 percent. Most of the increase is for public schools. A smaller but steadily growing amount of property tax revenue is spent on transportation. That surprises some taxpayers who think the gasoline tax and license tabs pay for the state's highways, bridges and streets. In fact they don't come close.

First 2 examples I found in a cursory search. Gas taxes do not come even close to paying for roads. Unless your willing to start paying $2.22 a gallon in taxes at the pump?

This is true.

The government of Ontario did a study many years ago looking at the cost of transportation and concluded that there was a significant transfer of wealth from the densely packed city center of Toronto to the suburbs since the suburbs required large roads and infrastructure that did not pay for itself. There was a proposal to dramatically raise the taxes of suburbanites, which, as you might imagine, did not fly.

 

[Nik]

A method of transportation is critical to urban/suburban development. Could be cars, could be busses, could be light rail/subway/whatever. Doesn't need to be any of those, but for whatever reason we've chosen cars.

We've chosen cars because America is a very big place. Rail is most economical in very dense urban settings. It is very uneconomical in vast expansive settings.

But even in dense urban settings there is a weird belief that rail should pay for itself, but that roads are exempted from that. Why is that? People freak out because the MTA loses money, as if the roads are somehow profitable.

 

[Nik]

because the roads are paid for by the people that use em(feul tax)
the rail would be paid for by people that DONT use it

Austin Contrarian: Do roads pay for themselves?



MPR: Road costs more often being paid by property taxes

Many Minnesotans have seen their property tax bill for this year and are not happy with the news. On average the increase in property taxes is 10 percent. Most of the increase is for public schools. A smaller but steadily growing amount of property tax revenue is spent on transportation. That surprises some taxpayers who think the gasoline tax and license tabs pay for the state's highways, bridges and streets. In fact they don't come close.

First 2 examples I found in a cursory search. Gas taxes do not come even close to paying for roads. Unless your willing to start paying $2.22 a gallon in taxes at the pump?

This is true.

The government of Ontario did a study many years ago looking at the cost of transportation and concluded that there was a significant transfer of wealth from the densely packed city center of Toronto to the suburbs since the suburbs required large roads and infrastructure that did not pay for itself. There was a proposal to dramatically raise the taxes of suburbanites, which, as you might imagine, did not fly.

I would do the opposite. Give them both free/subsidized transportation, but do it equally. Transportation spurs commerce, but it has a very high entry cost, so its something the government should be subsidizing.

 

[DiveCon]

A method of transportation is critical to urban/suburban development. Could be cars, could be busses, could be light rail/subway/whatever. Doesn't need to be any of those, but for whatever reason we've chosen cars.

then make the fares for using that system cover the costs
dont tax everyone so you can get a cheap ride

I'm down with that. So lets increase the gas tax to $2.22 a gallon then.

what you found was total BS
you dont need the tax to be anywhere near that

 

[Nik]

then make the fares for using that system cover the costs
dont tax everyone so you can get a cheap ride

I'm down with that. So lets increase the gas tax to $2.22 a gallon then.

what you found was total BS
you dont need the tax to be anywhere near that

Really? The Texas Department of Transportation thinks otherwise.

Care to cite some evidence supporting your position? Or do something more than just say the Texas DoT's study is "total BS".

 

[DiveCon]

because the roads are paid for by the people that use em(feul tax)
the rail would be paid for by people that DONT use it

Austin Contrarian: Do roads pay for themselves?



MPR: Road costs more often being paid by property taxes

Many Minnesotans have seen their property tax bill for this year and are not happy with the news. On average the increase in property taxes is 10 percent. Most of the increase is for public schools. A smaller but steadily growing amount of property tax revenue is spent on transportation. That surprises some taxpayers who think the gasoline tax and license tabs pay for the state's highways, bridges and streets. In fact they don't come close.

First 2 examples I found in a cursory search. Gas taxes do not come even close to paying for roads. Unless your willing to start paying $2.22 a gallon in taxes at the pump?

This is true.

The government of Ontario did a study many years ago looking at the cost of transportation and concluded that there was a significant transfer of wealth from the densely packed city center of Toronto to the suburbs since the suburbs required large roads and infrastructure that did not pay for itself. There was a proposal to dramatically raise the taxes of suburbanites, which, as you might imagine, did not fly.

you dont take a single road and get the gas tax from that road
i know i drive on MANY different roads
but i dont pay gas tax on each of those roads
so your examples are pure BULLSHIT

 

[DiveCon]

I'm down with that. So lets increase the gas tax to $2.22 a gallon then.

what you found was total BS
you dont need the tax to be anywhere near that

Really? The Texas Department of Transportation thinks otherwise.

Care to cite some evidence supporting your position? Or do something more than just say the Texas DoT's study is "total BS".

from your first link

State motor fuel tax is collected from all over the state and goes into a single pool of revenue—about one quarter of which goes to fund education, and about three-quarters of which goes to the state’s highway fund, where it is spent on transportation uses and some non-transportation functions of government.

makes you conclusion total BULLSHIT

 

[Nik]

Austin Contrarian: Do roads pay for themselves?



MPR: Road costs more often being paid by property taxes



First 2 examples I found in a cursory search. Gas taxes do not come even close to paying for roads. Unless your willing to start paying $2.22 a gallon in taxes at the pump?

This is true.

The government of Ontario did a study many years ago looking at the cost of transportation and concluded that there was a significant transfer of wealth from the densely packed city center of Toronto to the suburbs since the suburbs required large roads and infrastructure that did not pay for itself. There was a proposal to dramatically raise the taxes of suburbanites, which, as you might imagine, did not fly.

you dont take a single road and get the gas tax from that road
i know i drive on MANY different roads
but i dont pay gas tax on each of those roads
so your examples are pure BULLSHIT

You seem to have missed this part.

This is just one example, but there is not one road in Texas that pays for itself based on the tax system of today. Some roads pay for about half their true cost, but most roads we have analyzed pay for considerably less.

 

[Nik]

what you found was total BS
you dont need the tax to be anywhere near that

Really? The Texas Department of Transportation thinks otherwise.

Care to cite some evidence supporting your position? Or do something more than just say the Texas DoT's study is "total BS".

from your first link

State motor fuel tax is collected from all over the state and goes into a single pool of revenue—about one quarter of which goes to fund education, and about three-quarters of which goes to the state’s highway fund, where it is spent on transportation uses and some non-transportation functions of government.

makes you conclusion total BULLSHIT

How does it make my conclusion total bullshit exactly?

By the way, be honest. I didn't have a conclusion, I just posted what the Texas Department of Transportation said. So you are arguing with their conclusion, not mine.

 

[DiveCon]

This is true.

The government of Ontario did a study many years ago looking at the cost of transportation and concluded that there was a significant transfer of wealth from the densely packed city center of Toronto to the suburbs since the suburbs required large roads and infrastructure that did not pay for itself. There was a proposal to dramatically raise the taxes of suburbanites, which, as you might imagine, did not fly.

you dont take a single road and get the gas tax from that road
i know i drive on MANY different roads
but i dont pay gas tax on each of those roads
so your examples are pure BULLSHIT

You seem to have missed this part.

This is just one example, but there is not one road in Texas that pays for itself based on the tax system of today. Some roads pay for about half their true cost, but most roads we have analyzed pay for considerably less.

the roads in texas are paid for by the gas tax

PERIOD
as well as a BUNCH of OTHER shit that should not come from the gas tax
take that OTHER shit out and the gas tax would MORE than pay for all the roads

 

[DiveCon]

Really? The Texas Department of Transportation thinks otherwise.

Care to cite some evidence supporting your position? Or do something more than just say the Texas DoT's study is "total BS".

from your first link

State motor fuel tax is collected from all over the state and goes into a single pool of revenue—about one quarter of which goes to fund education, and about three-quarters of which goes to the state’s highway fund, where it is spent on transportation uses and some non-transportation functions of government.

makes you conclusion total BULLSHIT

How does it make my conclusion total bullshit exactly?

By the way, be honest. I didn't have a conclusion, I just posted what the Texas Department of Transportation said. So you are arguing with their conclusion, not mine.

no
you found a site that twisted what they said to fit your desired outcome


typical for the dishonest liberal fuck that you are

 

[Nik]

you dont take a single road and get the gas tax from that road
i know i drive on MANY different roads
but i dont pay gas tax on each of those roads
so your examples are pure BULLSHIT

You seem to have missed this part.

This is just one example, but there is not one road in Texas that pays for itself based on the tax system of today. Some roads pay for about half their true cost, but most roads we have analyzed pay for considerably less.

the roads in texas are paid for by the gas tax

PERIOD
as well as a BUNCH of OTHER shit that should not come from the gas tax
take that OTHER shit out and the gas tax would MORE than pay for all the roads

I've posted proof that this is NOT the case. See the below statement again. Read it carefully and slowly.

This is just one example, but there is not one road in Texas that pays for itself based on the tax system of today. Some roads pay for about half their true cost, but most roads we have analyzed pay for considerably less.