Why the "right" to free contraceptives is a challenge to the very concept of freedom

Not2BSubjugated

Callous Individualist
Feb 15, 2012
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In a mysanthropic malaise
Let me preface this little collection of abstractions by saying that, while I was raised Christian, I would currently have to say agnostic is the closest thing to a label that would fit my religious status. This thought is in no way based on any affiliation with Catholicism. To the contrary, I feel the subject is more a fundamental question as to the nature of human rights and the existence of freedom itself, let alone the freedom to practice religion. So when the inevitable rebuttals come at me, don't think that dismissing me as some sort of hyper-religious wingnut is a valid counterpoint.

The first step in the thought process is identifying that saying a person has the basic human right to free contraception is accepting that possession of a particular material item can be a basic human right. It is my contention that acceptance of -any- material item as a basic human right is a challenge to human freedom to some extent.

Let's take, for example, the "fundamental human right to housing". Sounds wonderful. Shelter, in most climates available on our sweet little piece of space rock, is necessary to human existence, and most sane people don't want to see others perish in the elements. When a government, however, declares that every person has the fundamental -right- to housing, it implies that those who can't or won't procure that housing for themselves must have that housing provided to them. Currently, we haven't developed animal training to the point that beasts of burden can be made to build us adequate housing. That means that the housing must be provided by other people. Therefore, a person can choose (and I realize that most don't simply choose, many are truly incapable of providing their own housing. My purpose is not an indictment of the disabled or those un/underemployed by no fault of their own) to contribute nothing to the acquisition/maintenance of their housing, and anyone capable of acquiring that housing for them would be trampling on their legally established, fundamental human rights by not providing that for them. Once again, and I emphasize, I'm not saying people who can't afford housing all choose to do nothing. I'm well aware that most truly are disabled or un/underemployed as a matter of circumstance and not of laziness. However, the fact remains that establishing a right to housing establishes the right to choose to subjugate your fellow citizens, should you be so inclined. If you question whether or not "subjugate" is an appropriate term, remember that slavery is involuntary labor in which the workers have no say in whether or not they share in that labor's fruits. In the case of housing, the challenge to freedom is limited in that housing, due to its nature as a necessity to human existence in many sectors of the globe, offers a clear cut-off to the degree to which people may subjugate each other. Essentially, it offers the fallback of being able to say that people are only beholden to each other insofar as is required to provide the necessities.

The case of a human right to free contraceptives is a much broader, if equally insidious, attack on human freedom in that contraceptives, unlike shelter, are -never- a necessity for basic human existence. The only sort of sex that can really be argued for as a physical necessity (and even then not to the existence of living humans, only to the continuing existence of the species) is sex for the purpose of procreation. When procreation isn't the purpose, the sex can only be classified as recreational (call it deep love making, it's still just an enjoyable activity for two or more people to enjoy together). If it isn't fulfilling a literal physical necessity, the most imperative status you can give to recreational sex is that a healthy sex life is necessary to a healthy social life. This is where the assault on freedom broadens. Basic physical necessities aren't nearly as debatable as social necessities. It is not arguable that not having enough recreational sex will, in and of itself, kill you, the way that not having water, in and of itself, will kill you. Social necessities, unlike physical necessities, are a matter of opinion, as is the very nature of a "healthy" social life. Now, chase the logic with me. . . You establish that possession of a physically non essential material object is a human right by declaring it a social imperative, you therefore establish that anyone who chooses not to procure that item for themselves has the right to subjugate others via government coercion to procure it for him. When that item is necessity only by virtue of the opinions of those in charge, you also establish that people can be subjugated to procure, for anyone who chooses not to procure for themselves, anything that those in charge deem necessary. Furthermore, establishing that item as a fundamental human right establishes that anyone capable of providing it who does not provide it is trampling the rights of those he does not provide it for, meaning that the degree to which subjugation is acceptable is limited only by the whims of those in power and the amount of "necessary" fruit the subjugated is capable of producing.

In summation, the "right" to ownership of a particular material item is, in essence, the "right" to various degrees of enslavement. When that "right" includes items not essential to human existence, freedom becomes a farce beholden to the whims of those in charge. I believe the term is "soft tyranny".

Can't wait for the back and forth on this one =)
 
Today, contraceptives......

Tomorrow....

free-beer-sign.jpg
 
We all have a right to contraception, but not for free.... no one in the GOP is saying you cant have it.

I just refuse to pay for it via my tax dollars.



Good Gawd where will it end with the freeloaders.
 
We all have a right to contraception, but not for free.... no one in the GOP is saying you cant have it.

I just refuse to pay for it via my tax dollars.



Good Gawd where will it end with the freeloaders.

When someone works for someone and the employer provides benefits, they do so in return for the work-hours provided. It is not free.
 
We all have a right to contraception, but not for free.... no one in the GOP is saying you cant have it.

I just refuse to pay for it via my tax dollars.



Good Gawd where will it end with the freeloaders.

When someone works for someone and the employer provides benefits, they do so in return for the work-hours provided. It is not free.



Well duhhh....

But if the gov't requires your insurance company to pay for free contraception... the cost will trickle down to said employee. So, NO its not free.
Nothing ever is right?

I think we agree, just possibly have a misunderstanding. :dunno:
 
I wasn't aware that people we're being persecuted for receiving contraceptives, free or otherwise.

A "right" is simply immunity from government persecution, not an entitlement to be paid for at the expense of others.
 
Viagra is covered is contraceptives aren't..

What's wrong with this picture?
Viagra should not be covered by insurance.

Umm, how about we "let" private insurance companies choose which things they will cover and which they will not. And how about we let the American people choose which companies they wish to use based on what services and coverage best suits them?

Radical concept eh?
 
A right in the old constitutional sense was more along the lines of something you weren't persecuted for, but in recent times that opinion's changed. Ginsburg, for instance, was just telling the Egyptians they should model their constitution on that of South Africa before they use the American model. One of the key differences between them is that the South African constitution guarantees its citizens the right to housing. It's intent is that the government provide everyone housing, not simply that it never persecute people for having homes.

As to the current insurance issue, I'd have to say you're muddling it up by describing it as a simple exchange between employer and employee. In this place you're talking about employers and employees who had existing agreements that didn't include several of the services demanded by the Obama health care mandate, including the contraceptives. Seeing as how that's above and beyond what the employer actually agreed to at the onset of employment, and the government is demanding that it now be added under the guise of "the right to access contraceptives", essentially they're saying that that right is an imperative to pay for women's contraceptives. If the right to access means the right to have them paid for, -above and beyond- what was ever agreed to by their employer or that employer's insurance policies, then the government is, in effect, demanding that these women now be given free contraceptives.
 
Free? No. You DON'T have the right to that.

But you DO have a right to contraception!
The government can provide that if they want.


It's not a right, it's a privilege. And the government can provide that privilege if they wish. (I support it for obvious reasons. people don't realize how much of a positive effect it can have overall.)
To be denied an item that you have a right to have because of religion is against the constitution, even if it is a privilege.


It's like saying you have to start paying for church. You can't go if you don't pay for it yourself because I'm an atheist.
 
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Free? No. You DON'T have the right to that.

But you DO have a right to contraception!
The government can provide that if they want.


It's not a right, it's a privilege. And the government can provide that privilege if they wish. (I support it for obvious reasons. people don't realize how much of a positive effect it can have overall.)
To be denied an item that you have a right to have because of religion is against the constitution, even if it is a privilege.


It's like saying you have to start paying for church. You can't go if you don't pay for it yourself because I'm an atheist.


:eusa_eh:
 
Free? No. You DON'T have the right to that.

But you DO have a right to contraception!
The government can provide that if they want.


It's not a right, it's a privilege. And the government can provide that privilege if they wish. (I support it for obvious reasons. people don't realize how much of a positive effect it can have overall.)
To be denied an item that you have a right to have because of religion is against the constitution, even if it is a privilege.


It's like saying you have to start paying for church. You can't go if you don't pay for it yourself because I'm an atheist.

There's a few misconceptions shining through in your argument. First, if the government doesn't force your employer to buy your contraceptives for you, you haven't been denied anything. You can still go buy all the contraceptives you can fit in your SUV if you choose to do so. I've never heard of any religious types standing in the medicine isle at 7-11 and blocking people off from the condom racks.

Next, the health care mandate is the only piece of legislation currently implying that there is a Federally recognized "privilege" to be given contraceptives by way of government mandate. Even if there was, it wouldn't trump the religious freedom granted in The Constitution. Why? No new legislation legally trumps the Constitution. The only way this new privilege could have that kind of weight is if the privilege underwent the ratification to be added to the Amendments. Absent that, you must recognize that the entire concept of the Constitution is a set of rules outside of which future legislation, exempting new Amendments, cannot operate. Essentially, even if Washington representatives -did- decide to Federally recognize this privilege, it would not carry the weight to trump the 1st Amendment's religious protection. Quite the opposite, actually.

Next, people -do- pay for Churches themselves. The government doesn't build and maintain religious organizations/infrastructure, it simply allows them to receive donations from their congregations without taxing them. You seem to suffer from a common misconception shared by most big government advocates: when the government doesn't take your money from you, they're not actually giving you anything. Those donations the churches receive from their congregation is not technically the government's property, so when it isn't taxed, nothing has actually been given away to the religion by anyone except those donors who voluntarily dropped their tithe/offering into the collection plate. If I'm standing outside your place of employment when you pick up your paycheck and I don't take your money on your way to your car, you don't thank me for giving you that paycheck.

Lastly, there's a minor point that I'm not sure if you've thought through or not. The US government isn't currently running a profit margin on any investments. It doesn't have its own income in any amount that even approaches its levels of spending. That means that for the government to provide you with anything, it has to use money that it has taxed from others. In essence, saying that the government is providing you with something is the same as saying the government is coercing your fellow citizens into providing you with something.
 
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Free? No. You DON'T have the right to that.

But you DO have a right to contraception!
The government can provide that if they want.


It's not a right, it's a privilege. And the government can provide that privilege if they wish. (I support it for obvious reasons. people don't realize how much of a positive effect it can have overall.)
To be denied an item that you have a right to have because of religion is against the constitution, even if it is a privilege.


It's like saying you have to start paying for church. You can't go if you don't pay for it yourself because I'm an atheist.

There's a few misconceptions shining through in your argument. First, if the government doesn't force your employer to buy your contraceptives for you, you haven't been denied anything. You can still go buy all the contraceptives you can fit in your SUV if you choose to do so. I've never heard of any religious types standing in the medicine isle at 7-11 and blocking people off from the condom racks.

Next, the health care mandate is the only piece of legislation currently implying that there is a Federally recognized "privilege" to be given contraceptives by way of government mandate. Even if there was, it wouldn't trump the religious freedom granted in The Constitution. Why? No new legislation legally trumps the Constitution. The only way this new privilege could have that kind of weight is if the privilege underwent the ratification to be added to the Amendments. Absent that, you must recognize that the entire concept of the Constitution is a set of rules outside of which future legislation, exempting new Amendments, cannot operate. Essentially, even if Washington representatives -did- decide to Federally recognize this privilege, it would not carry the weight to trump the 1st Amendment's religious protection. Quite the opposite, actually.

Next, people -do- pay for Churches themselves. The government doesn't build and maintain religious organizations/infrastructure, it simply allows them to receive donations from their congregations without taxing them. You seem to suffer from a common misconception shared by most big government advocates: when the government doesn't take your money from you, they're not actually giving you anything. Those donations the churches receive from their congregation is not technically the government's property, so when it isn't taxed, nothing has actually been given away to the religion by anyone except those donors who voluntarily dropped their tithe/offering into the collection plate. If I'm standing outside your place of employment when you pick up your paycheck and I don't take your money on your way to your car, you don't thank me for giving you that paycheck.

Lastly, there's a minor point that I'm not sure if you've thought through or not. The US government isn't currently running a profit margin on any investments. It doesn't have its own income in any amount that even approaches its levels of spending. That means that for the government to provide you with anything, it has to use money that it has taxed from others. In essence, saying that the government is providing you with something is the same as saying the government is coercing your fellow citizens into providing you with something.

so you are saying because of your 1st amendment rights, people shouldn't be able to get it through healthcare?

:eusa_eh:
 
I'm no constitutional scholar, but even if you argue that it is a "right", since when are all rights subsidized? Should the govt. provide us with "free" firearms?

Here's where the whole mess gets even messier. What about the "self-insured"?

Federal and state governments frequently order private companies to do things like put airbags in cars, he says. But those companies can charge more to make up the cost.

“I have never seen an example of the federal government telling a company they have to provide a service and they are not allowed to charge for it,” he says.

Does contraception really pay for itself? « Hot Air Headlines
 

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