Why teachers need more pay

[Unkotare]

That's rich! Show me a high school in the south or midwest that taught those courses 100 years ago. You don't even realize that most high schools didn't even exist!

Most conservatives have this wild dream of what used to be in terms of education, but it never really existed except in their imaginations. I have never met another adult outside of my classmates who took Latin in high school like I did. Considering my age, that shatters your meme.

Latin is an elective at many, if not most, high schools.

 

[Unkotare]

teachers are not underpaid
they have it pretty fucking good for part timers

....you would have to be insane or a boy scout that wants to give it away to teach....

Is it insane to make choices based on factors other than just greed?

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

That's rich! Show me a high school in the south or midwest that taught those courses 100 years ago. You don't even realize that most high schools didn't even exist!

Most conservatives have this wild dream of what used to be in terms of education, but it never really existed except in their imaginations. I have never met another adult outside of my classmates who took Latin in high school like I did. Considering my age, that shatters your meme.

Latin is an elective at many, if not most, high schools.

Yeah, right!

We had problems finding teachers for Spanish!

 

[Unkotare]

That's rich! Show me a high school in the south or midwest that taught those courses 100 years ago. You don't even realize that most high schools didn't even exist!

Most conservatives have this wild dream of what used to be in terms of education, but it never really existed except in their imaginations. I have never met another adult outside of my classmates who took Latin in high school like I did. Considering my age, that shatters your meme.

Latin is an elective at many, if not most, high schools.

Yeah, right!

...

Yes, right.

 

[sealybobo]

Yea and most will take someone with a 2.5 average.

And you must admit a private school B is an A at your public school right?

Wrong, idiot.

Ignored. Bye Unkotare. If you have nothing to say, then you are just a burden to the forum. Nice knowing you.

See what I mean? Are you just realizing this about him?

Are you a conservative? He agrees with conservatives on most issues he knows nothing about but when it comes to his public education unionized tenured collective bargaining job he’s a total liberal. This may be why you think he usually adds more. He doesn’t. Not ever. You just may not be the one he’s frustrating.

He also derails the thread by making me call him out. Then I get banned. I will put him on ignore too.

Same with that snowflake lady teacher who put me on ignore. She can’t stand her own hypocrisy. She cries because I hope she loses her liberal benefits and entitlements but she votes for right to work legislation so she should have to worry about her job just like the rest of us.

I honestly had better discussions with him in the past. He must have lost his mind or something.

I am consistent.

Consistently saying nothing amirite?

 

[sealybobo]

Pretty sure most of the people who get paid millions for playing games, come from public schools.

In fact, quite a few of the private schools I know of, don't even have sports teams.

Oh, you are such an ignorant piece of crap!

Check out who wins the state championships in football and basketball in any number of states. Chances are they private schools who magically have scholarships for athletes attending public school to suddenly decide that private school was where their heart (and athletic skills) belonged!

I would love to see how many in the top NFL teams, came from private K-12 schools.

Not to be racist, but a lot of the white players do!

In the last 12 years, our class 6A state football champion has been a private school 9 times! For class 5A, it was 5 out of the last 12 years and the last 4 in a row.

If you understand anything about statistics at all, you should see the disparity. Probably not!

...

So who cares if it offers a free tuition to students with athletic ability, as long as it still requires the same level of educational results?

Most people should be happy that a student can get a better education for being a better athlete. Why not?

I want as many people to do better, as is possible. So if some guy that can run a football, can get a free education at a better school, and have better results.... more power to him.

Athletics have opened the door to educational opportunities for a great many young people. One of the many positives associated with sports.

It did for me I have to agree.

 

[Andylusion]

Have you talked to a highschool student these days .
One thing is sure they are whining little assholes that have no common sense and cry constantly. I think teachers or should I say the school system is why

Why would you ever blame teachers? Are you one of those whining little assholes too?

You cannot make chicken salad out of chicken shit!

Well..... sometimes I think many teachers are to blame. Not all obviously.

So years ago, my church had a roof problem, and we had to meet at a local school instead. We were meeting in the tutoring room.

The room was filled, top to bottom with Pandas. Photos of Pandas, pictures of Pandas, drawings of Pandas, picture books of pandas.... on and on and on.

What wasn't in the room anywhere that I could tell, was a multiplication table.... or reading books, or literature, or anything that would suggest a place of learning. There were painted trees on the wall, to make it look like where Panda's would be living. But nothing on the wall to make it look like where children would be learning.

The exact opposite experience from a private school I visited. There was nothing but multiplication tables, and sentence structure, and everything in the room was designed for the purpose of learning.

Now unless you would suggest that was because of school management, I think it was the teacher who influenced how those rooms were setup.

It is possible that some teachers are really trying their best, and not succeeding. If that is the case, then I still lay some of the blame at the foot of teachers, because they are still defending this system.

If you are trying your best, and you cannot succeed because "You cannot make chicken salad out of chicken shit" then the first thing you should be on board with is, changing the system.

But teachers oppose changes to the system at every single turn. So in that regard, they absolutely are to blame for the bad quality of education.

 

[sealybobo]

That's rich! Show me a high school in the south or midwest that taught those courses 100 years ago. You don't even realize that most high schools didn't even exist!

Most conservatives have this wild dream of what used to be in terms of education, but it never really existed except in their imaginations. I have never met another adult outside of my classmates who took Latin in high school like I did. Considering my age, that shatters your meme.

Latin is an elective at many, if not most, high schools.

Another cold day off of work? I'm at work. Not too cold for me. What other thing will you find to do today to keep you away from the home?

 

[Unkotare]

That's rich! Show me a high school in the south or midwest that taught those courses 100 years ago. You don't even realize that most high schools didn't even exist!

Most conservatives have this wild dream of what used to be in terms of education, but it never really existed except in their imaginations. I have never met another adult outside of my classmates who took Latin in high school like I did. Considering my age, that shatters your meme.

Latin is an elective at many, if not most, high schools.

Another cold day off of work? ....

No, douche bag.

 

[sealybobo]

That's rich! Show me a high school in the south or midwest that taught those courses 100 years ago. You don't even realize that most high schools didn't even exist!

Most conservatives have this wild dream of what used to be in terms of education, but it never really existed except in their imaginations. I have never met another adult outside of my classmates who took Latin in high school like I did. Considering my age, that shatters your meme.

Latin is an elective at many, if not most, high schools.

Another cold day off of work? ....

No, douche bag.

P.S. You don't have to teach me Greek. I already know it malaka. And I'm not some irishmen with a greek/asian fetish. I'm actually Greek. So when you hear me bookaki'ing Greeks it's because I am a Greek. Not an irishman who loves Asian men's feet.

 

[Unkotare]

That's rich! Show me a high school in the south or midwest that taught those courses 100 years ago. You don't even realize that most high schools didn't even exist!

Most conservatives have this wild dream of what used to be in terms of education, but it never really existed except in their imaginations. I have never met another adult outside of my classmates who took Latin in high school like I did. Considering my age, that shatters your meme.

Latin is an elective at many, if not most, high schools.

Another cold day off of work? ....

No, douche bag.

P.S. You don't have to teach me Greek. .....

No one asked, douche bag.

 

[sealybobo]

That's rich! Show me a high school in the south or midwest that taught those courses 100 years ago. You don't even realize that most high schools didn't even exist!

Most conservatives have this wild dream of what used to be in terms of education, but it never really existed except in their imaginations. I have never met another adult outside of my classmates who took Latin in high school like I did. Considering my age, that shatters your meme.

Latin is an elective at many, if not most, high schools.

Another cold day off of work? ....

No, douche bag.

P.S. You don't have to teach me Greek. .....

No one asked, douche bag.

Do you think anyone has ever asked for one of your drive by troll posts?

 

[mgh80]

Have you talked to a highschool student these days .
One thing is sure they are whining little assholes that have no common sense and cry constantly. I think teachers or should I say the school system is why

Why would you ever blame teachers? Are you one of those whining little assholes too?

You cannot make chicken salad out of chicken shit!

Well..... sometimes I think many teachers are to blame. Not all obviously.

So years ago, my church had a roof problem, and we had to meet at a local school instead. We were meeting in the tutoring room.

The room was filled, top to bottom with Pandas. Photos of Pandas, pictures of Pandas, drawings of Pandas, picture books of pandas.... on and on and on.

What wasn't in the room anywhere that I could tell, was a multiplication table.... or reading books, or literature, or anything that would suggest a place of learning. There were painted trees on the wall, to make it look like where Panda's would be living. But nothing on the wall to make it look like where children would be learning.

The exact opposite experience from a private school I visited. There was nothing but multiplication tables, and sentence structure, and everything in the room was designed for the purpose of learning.

Now unless you would suggest that was because of school management, I think it was the teacher who influenced how those rooms were setup.

It is possible that some teachers are really trying their best, and not succeeding. If that is the case, then I still lay some of the blame at the foot of teachers, because they are still defending this system.

If you are trying your best, and you cannot succeed because "You cannot make chicken salad out of chicken shit" then the first thing you should be on board with is, changing the system.

But teachers oppose changes to the system at every single turn. So in that regard, they absolutely are to blame for the bad quality of education.

Few things here:

-Decorations on the wall doesn't equal learning or teaching-it's also dependent on the subject taught. I don't math, but what do you think a kid would actually retain math skills from more, having to memorize formulas and use them on tests-or not have to memorize them, look at them on the wall and follow the instructions given?

-One classroom is hardly an accurate analysis of the education system as a whole

-Public school teachers almost always have stricter evaluations than their private school peers

-It's naturally easier to have better results in a private school than a public school because private schools can kick out "those" kids, whereas public has to take everybody. Class full of gang members and students in sever poverty or a class full of upper middle class kids? Pretty easy to see which class is more likely to perform better in school

-Teachers have ZERO say in the curriculum (at least in my district). I can add additional content that I deem fit, but I have to cover the curriculum...which is put into place by politicians-NOT teachers

-I don't know a single teacher (and I literally know 50-60, and know hundreds in passing) that is against alternative schools instead of a traditional high school, so students learn a trade. Of course the core class like math, science, English would still be taught.

 

[Andylusion]

Have you talked to a highschool student these days .
One thing is sure they are whining little assholes that have no common sense and cry constantly. I think teachers or should I say the school system is why

Why would you ever blame teachers? Are you one of those whining little assholes too?

You cannot make chicken salad out of chicken shit!

Well..... sometimes I think many teachers are to blame. Not all obviously.

So years ago, my church had a roof problem, and we had to meet at a local school instead. We were meeting in the tutoring room.

The room was filled, top to bottom with Pandas. Photos of Pandas, pictures of Pandas, drawings of Pandas, picture books of pandas.... on and on and on.

What wasn't in the room anywhere that I could tell, was a multiplication table.... or reading books, or literature, or anything that would suggest a place of learning. There were painted trees on the wall, to make it look like where Panda's would be living. But nothing on the wall to make it look like where children would be learning.

The exact opposite experience from a private school I visited. There was nothing but multiplication tables, and sentence structure, and everything in the room was designed for the purpose of learning.

Now unless you would suggest that was because of school management, I think it was the teacher who influenced how those rooms were setup.

It is possible that some teachers are really trying their best, and not succeeding. If that is the case, then I still lay some of the blame at the foot of teachers, because they are still defending this system.

If you are trying your best, and you cannot succeed because "You cannot make chicken salad out of chicken shit" then the first thing you should be on board with is, changing the system.

But teachers oppose changes to the system at every single turn. So in that regard, they absolutely are to blame for the bad quality of education.

Few things here:

-Decorations on the wall doesn't equal learning or teaching-it's also dependent on the subject taught. I don't math, but what do you think a kid would actually retain math skills from more, having to memorize formulas and use them on tests-or not have to memorize them, look at them on the wall and follow the instructions given?

-One classroom is hardly an accurate analysis of the education system as a whole

-Public school teachers almost always have stricter evaluations than their private school peers

-It's naturally easier to have better results in a private school than a public school because private schools can kick out "those" kids, whereas public has to take everybody. Class full of gang members and students in sever poverty or a class full of upper middle class kids? Pretty easy to see which class is more likely to perform better in school

-Teachers have ZERO say in the curriculum (at least in my district). I can add additional content that I deem fit, but I have to cover the curriculum...which is put into place by politicians-NOT teachers

-I don't know a single teacher (and I literally know 50-60, and know hundreds in passing) that is against alternative schools instead of a traditional high school, so students learn a trade. Of course the core class like math, science, English would still be taught.

1. Decorations on the wall doesn't equal learning or teaching

And yet private schools routinely out perform public schools.

2. Public school teachers almost always have stricter evaluations than their private school peers

And yet private schools routinely out perform public schools, and more cheaply.

3. It's naturally easier to have better results in a private school than a public school because private schools can kick out "those" kids, whereas public has to take everybody.

Ok? So lets emulate private schools in public schools.

4. Teachers have ZERO say in the curriculum (at least in my district). I can add additional content that I deem fit, but I have to cover the curriculum...which is put into place by politicians-NOT teachers

Ok? So lets emulate private schools in public schools.

5. I don't know a single teacher (and I literally know 50-60, and know hundreds in passing) that is against alternative schools

You say that, and yet I read about teachers being against charter and private schools, routinely.

And then you have the other side, which is that you see unions organizing strikes and walks out constantly, and lobbying government to prevent such things.

If a teacher supports a union, that is actively preventing students from getting a better education... then their lack of action in support of what is best for students, makes them as guilty in causing bad education.

The bottom line is.....

We have a problem in the education system. To me, all the stuff you listed are endless excuses to continue a bad system. When nearly every single college and university is being forced to provide remedial courses, because people can't do High School level math, reading and writing.... the system is failing.

How does the fact that teachers do not have control over curriculum, make a difference? If you are telling me the curriculum is bad, and the teachers have no control.... then why are private schools doing a better job? Do teachers have more control over curriculum in private schools?

Then that is yet another reason to move to a private school system.

If you are telling me the politicians are intervening in the system and causing the problems, then is that not yet another reason to move to private school system?

So public schools cannot remove problem kids that disrupt the class, and won't do the work to learn anyway? But private schools can? So isn't that alone, a reason to move to a private school system?

Again... Plan A sucks, and doesn't work. We need to move to a plan B. If you are telling me there are these issues, that are causing our system to fail.... then we need a new system, or to eliminate the current system.

Now you say decorations do not matter, and you can say public teachers have stricter whatever, but the fact still remains that private schools have better results for a lower cost.

So I honestly don't know what makes a good school or a bad school. I don't know if plastering the walls with Pandas, instead of multiplication tables, makes a difference. I don't know if having novels with words, instead of picture books of pandas, makes a difference.

What I do know is that a lousy public school with low results and high costs, had things setup one way, and a private school with low costs and high results had it another way.

Now if teachers have a fix, then they need to make those fixes policy. They have a large union system, and they can use those unions to lobby to make the fixes, instead of lobbying against charter schools.

My problem is, every time I see teachers protesting, it's for more money, and to eliminate charter schools. Schools do not more money. We have the most expensive school system on the entire face of the Earth. We spend more money per student than any other country on planet, and we get crappy results relative to the cost. And instead of promoting schools that get better results for a lower cost, they fight to force more students into a bad system.

If teachers have a solution, that doesn't involve forcing kids into bad schools, and demanding more money.... then provide that solution. I'll listen to it. Lets hear the fix.

I've had 3 different conversations about this exact topic, and all three times, no solution was ever given.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Have you talked to a highschool student these days .
One thing is sure they are whining little assholes that have no common sense and cry constantly. I think teachers or should I say the school system is why

Why would you ever blame teachers? Are you one of those whining little assholes too?

You cannot make chicken salad out of chicken shit!

Well..... sometimes I think many teachers are to blame. Not all obviously.

So years ago, my church had a roof problem, and we had to meet at a local school instead. We were meeting in the tutoring room.

The room was filled, top to bottom with Pandas. Photos of Pandas, pictures of Pandas, drawings of Pandas, picture books of pandas.... on and on and on.

What wasn't in the room anywhere that I could tell, was a multiplication table.... or reading books, or literature, or anything that would suggest a place of learning. There were painted trees on the wall, to make it look like where Panda's would be living. But nothing on the wall to make it look like where children would be learning.

The exact opposite experience from a private school I visited. There was nothing but multiplication tables, and sentence structure, and everything in the room was designed for the purpose of learning.

Now unless you would suggest that was because of school management, I think it was the teacher who influenced how those rooms were setup.

It is possible that some teachers are really trying their best, and not succeeding. If that is the case, then I still lay some of the blame at the foot of teachers, because they are still defending this system.

If you are trying your best, and you cannot succeed because "You cannot make chicken salad out of chicken shit" then the first thing you should be on board with is, changing the system.

But teachers oppose changes to the system at every single turn. So in that regard, they absolutely are to blame for the bad quality of education.

Few things here:

-Decorations on the wall doesn't equal learning or teaching-it's also dependent on the subject taught. I don't math, but what do you think a kid would actually retain math skills from more, having to memorize formulas and use them on tests-or not have to memorize them, look at them on the wall and follow the instructions given?

-One classroom is hardly an accurate analysis of the education system as a whole

-Public school teachers almost always have stricter evaluations than their private school peers

-It's naturally easier to have better results in a private school than a public school because private schools can kick out "those" kids, whereas public has to take everybody. Class full of gang members and students in sever poverty or a class full of upper middle class kids? Pretty easy to see which class is more likely to perform better in school

-Teachers have ZERO say in the curriculum (at least in my district). I can add additional content that I deem fit, but I have to cover the curriculum...which is put into place by politicians-NOT teachers

-I don't know a single teacher (and I literally know 50-60, and know hundreds in passing) that is against alternative schools instead of a traditional high school, so students learn a trade. Of course the core class like math, science, English would still be taught.

1. Decorations on the wall doesn't equal learning or teaching

And yet private schools routinely out perform public schools.

2. Public school teachers almost always have stricter evaluations than their private school peers

And yet private schools routinely out perform public schools, and more cheaply.

3. It's naturally easier to have better results in a private school than a public school because private schools can kick out "those" kids, whereas public has to take everybody.

Ok? So lets emulate private schools in public schools.

4. Teachers have ZERO say in the curriculum (at least in my district). I can add additional content that I deem fit, but I have to cover the curriculum...which is put into place by politicians-NOT teachers

Ok? So lets emulate private schools in public schools.

5. I don't know a single teacher (and I literally know 50-60, and know hundreds in passing) that is against alternative schools

You say that, and yet I read about teachers being against charter and private schools, routinely.

And then you have the other side, which is that you see unions organizing strikes and walks out constantly, and lobbying government to prevent such things.

If a teacher supports a union, that is actively preventing students from getting a better education... then their lack of action in support of what is best for students, makes them as guilty in causing bad education.

The bottom line is.....

We have a problem in the education system. To me, all the stuff you listed are endless excuses to continue a bad system. When nearly every single college and university is being forced to provide remedial courses, because people can't do High School level math, reading and writing.... the system is failing.

How does the fact that teachers do not have control over curriculum, make a difference? If you are telling me the curriculum is bad, and the teachers have no control.... then why are private schools doing a better job? Do teachers have more control over curriculum in private schools?

Then that is yet another reason to move to a private school system.

If you are telling me the politicians are intervening in the system and causing the problems, then is that not yet another reason to move to private school system?

So public schools cannot remove problem kids that disrupt the class, and won't do the work to learn anyway? But private schools can? So isn't that alone, a reason to move to a private school system?

Again... Plan A sucks, and doesn't work. We need to move to a plan B. If you are telling me there are these issues, that are causing our system to fail.... then we need a new system, or to eliminate the current system.

Now you say decorations do not matter, and you can say public teachers have stricter whatever, but the fact still remains that private schools have better results for a lower cost.

So I honestly don't know what makes a good school or a bad school. I don't know if plastering the walls with Pandas, instead of multiplication tables, makes a difference. I don't know if having novels with words, instead of picture books of pandas, makes a difference.

What I do know is that a lousy public school with low results and high costs, had things setup one way, and a private school with low costs and high results had it another way.

Now if teachers have a fix, then they need to make those fixes policy. They have a large union system, and they can use those unions to lobby to make the fixes, instead of lobbying against charter schools.

My problem is, every time I see teachers protesting, it's for more money, and to eliminate charter schools. Schools do not more money. We have the most expensive school system on the entire face of the Earth. We spend more money per student than any other country on planet, and we get crappy results relative to the cost. And instead of promoting schools that get better results for a lower cost, they fight to force more students into a bad system.

If teachers have a solution, that doesn't involve forcing kids into bad schools, and demanding more money.... then provide that solution. I'll listen to it. Lets hear the fix.

I've had 3 different conversations about this exact topic, and all three times, no solution was ever given.

Can you make chicken salad out of chicken shit?

If not, stop expecting teachers to do just that, and stop sending students that are nothing more than chicken shit!

 

[mgh80]

Have you talked to a highschool student these days .
One thing is sure they are whining little assholes that have no common sense and cry constantly. I think teachers or should I say the school system is why

Why would you ever blame teachers? Are you one of those whining little assholes too?

You cannot make chicken salad out of chicken shit!

Well..... sometimes I think many teachers are to blame. Not all obviously.

So years ago, my church had a roof problem, and we had to meet at a local school instead. We were meeting in the tutoring room.

The room was filled, top to bottom with Pandas. Photos of Pandas, pictures of Pandas, drawings of Pandas, picture books of pandas.... on and on and on.

What wasn't in the room anywhere that I could tell, was a multiplication table.... or reading books, or literature, or anything that would suggest a place of learning. There were painted trees on the wall, to make it look like where Panda's would be living. But nothing on the wall to make it look like where children would be learning.

The exact opposite experience from a private school I visited. There was nothing but multiplication tables, and sentence structure, and everything in the room was designed for the purpose of learning.

Now unless you would suggest that was because of school management, I think it was the teacher who influenced how those rooms were setup.

It is possible that some teachers are really trying their best, and not succeeding. If that is the case, then I still lay some of the blame at the foot of teachers, because they are still defending this system.

If you are trying your best, and you cannot succeed because "You cannot make chicken salad out of chicken shit" then the first thing you should be on board with is, changing the system.

But teachers oppose changes to the system at every single turn. So in that regard, they absolutely are to blame for the bad quality of education.

Few things here:

-Decorations on the wall doesn't equal learning or teaching-it's also dependent on the subject taught. I don't math, but what do you think a kid would actually retain math skills from more, having to memorize formulas and use them on tests-or not have to memorize them, look at them on the wall and follow the instructions given?

-One classroom is hardly an accurate analysis of the education system as a whole

-Public school teachers almost always have stricter evaluations than their private school peers

-It's naturally easier to have better results in a private school than a public school because private schools can kick out "those" kids, whereas public has to take everybody. Class full of gang members and students in sever poverty or a class full of upper middle class kids? Pretty easy to see which class is more likely to perform better in school

-Teachers have ZERO say in the curriculum (at least in my district). I can add additional content that I deem fit, but I have to cover the curriculum...which is put into place by politicians-NOT teachers

-I don't know a single teacher (and I literally know 50-60, and know hundreds in passing) that is against alternative schools instead of a traditional high school, so students learn a trade. Of course the core class like math, science, English would still be taught.

1. Decorations on the wall doesn't equal learning or teaching

And yet private schools routinely out perform public schools.

2. Public school teachers almost always have stricter evaluations than their private school peers

And yet private schools routinely out perform public schools, and more cheaply.

3. It's naturally easier to have better results in a private school than a public school because private schools can kick out "those" kids, whereas public has to take everybody.

Ok? So lets emulate private schools in public schools.

4. Teachers have ZERO say in the curriculum (at least in my district). I can add additional content that I deem fit, but I have to cover the curriculum...which is put into place by politicians-NOT teachers

Ok? So lets emulate private schools in public schools.

5. I don't know a single teacher (and I literally know 50-60, and know hundreds in passing) that is against alternative schools

You say that, and yet I read about teachers being against charter and private schools, routinely.

And then you have the other side, which is that you see unions organizing strikes and walks out constantly, and lobbying government to prevent such things.

If a teacher supports a union, that is actively preventing students from getting a better education... then their lack of action in support of what is best for students, makes them as guilty in causing bad education.

The bottom line is.....

We have a problem in the education system. To me, all the stuff you listed are endless excuses to continue a bad system. When nearly every single college and university is being forced to provide remedial courses, because people can't do High School level math, reading and writing.... the system is failing.

How does the fact that teachers do not have control over curriculum, make a difference? If you are telling me the curriculum is bad, and the teachers have no control.... then why are private schools doing a better job? Do teachers have more control over curriculum in private schools?

Then that is yet another reason to move to a private school system.

If you are telling me the politicians are intervening in the system and causing the problems, then is that not yet another reason to move to private school system?

So public schools cannot remove problem kids that disrupt the class, and won't do the work to learn anyway? But private schools can? So isn't that alone, a reason to move to a private school system?

Again... Plan A sucks, and doesn't work. We need to move to a plan B. If you are telling me there are these issues, that are causing our system to fail.... then we need a new system, or to eliminate the current system.

Now you say decorations do not matter, and you can say public teachers have stricter whatever, but the fact still remains that private schools have better results for a lower cost.

So I honestly don't know what makes a good school or a bad school. I don't know if plastering the walls with Pandas, instead of multiplication tables, makes a difference. I don't know if having novels with words, instead of picture books of pandas, makes a difference.

What I do know is that a lousy public school with low results and high costs, had things setup one way, and a private school with low costs and high results had it another way.

Now if teachers have a fix, then they need to make those fixes policy. They have a large union system, and they can use those unions to lobby to make the fixes, instead of lobbying against charter schools.

My problem is, every time I see teachers protesting, it's for more money, and to eliminate charter schools. Schools do not more money. We have the most expensive school system on the entire face of the Earth. We spend more money per student than any other country on planet, and we get crappy results relative to the cost. And instead of promoting schools that get better results for a lower cost, they fight to force more students into a bad system.

If teachers have a solution, that doesn't involve forcing kids into bad schools, and demanding more money.... then provide that solution. I'll listen to it. Lets hear the fix.

I've had 3 different conversations about this exact topic, and all three times, no solution was ever given.

I'm not making any excuses. I stand behind my performance. My students routinely beat my district, school, and state average on standardized testing (this includes private schools), in terms of gains.

Starting salary in my district is $38K/year. I know what I signed up for...but let's not pretending like teachers are living high on the hog. My district also pays more than most neighboring ones.

Teachers have zero say in any "fixes" that they could potentially offer the school system. Again, read.

I'm all for alternative schools to put students in situations where they can succeed. I stated such earlier in this thread, as well as mentioning that most teachers agree with this assessment. Read.

I never mentioned charter schools whatsoever, so that's completely irrelevant. The local charter school near me recently closed down due to lack of demand.

As for solutions:

Invest in alternative schools where students still learn their core classes (math, science, English, social studies), but also learn a trade for later in life. This will solve TONS of issues in the education system.

Invest more in teacher bonuses, to promote achievement for students.

Invest in classroom infrastructure (working printers, technology, air conditioning, etc).

PS: The Republican governor of my state has suggested doing all of the above.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Why would you ever blame teachers? Are you one of those whining little assholes too?

You cannot make chicken salad out of chicken shit!

Well..... sometimes I think many teachers are to blame. Not all obviously.

So years ago, my church had a roof problem, and we had to meet at a local school instead. We were meeting in the tutoring room.

The room was filled, top to bottom with Pandas. Photos of Pandas, pictures of Pandas, drawings of Pandas, picture books of pandas.... on and on and on.

What wasn't in the room anywhere that I could tell, was a multiplication table.... or reading books, or literature, or anything that would suggest a place of learning. There were painted trees on the wall, to make it look like where Panda's would be living. But nothing on the wall to make it look like where children would be learning.

The exact opposite experience from a private school I visited. There was nothing but multiplication tables, and sentence structure, and everything in the room was designed for the purpose of learning.

Now unless you would suggest that was because of school management, I think it was the teacher who influenced how those rooms were setup.

It is possible that some teachers are really trying their best, and not succeeding. If that is the case, then I still lay some of the blame at the foot of teachers, because they are still defending this system.

If you are trying your best, and you cannot succeed because "You cannot make chicken salad out of chicken shit" then the first thing you should be on board with is, changing the system.

But teachers oppose changes to the system at every single turn. So in that regard, they absolutely are to blame for the bad quality of education.

Few things here:

-Decorations on the wall doesn't equal learning or teaching-it's also dependent on the subject taught. I don't math, but what do you think a kid would actually retain math skills from more, having to memorize formulas and use them on tests-or not have to memorize them, look at them on the wall and follow the instructions given?

-One classroom is hardly an accurate analysis of the education system as a whole

-Public school teachers almost always have stricter evaluations than their private school peers

-It's naturally easier to have better results in a private school than a public school because private schools can kick out "those" kids, whereas public has to take everybody. Class full of gang members and students in sever poverty or a class full of upper middle class kids? Pretty easy to see which class is more likely to perform better in school

-Teachers have ZERO say in the curriculum (at least in my district). I can add additional content that I deem fit, but I have to cover the curriculum...which is put into place by politicians-NOT teachers

-I don't know a single teacher (and I literally know 50-60, and know hundreds in passing) that is against alternative schools instead of a traditional high school, so students learn a trade. Of course the core class like math, science, English would still be taught.

1. Decorations on the wall doesn't equal learning or teaching

And yet private schools routinely out perform public schools.

2. Public school teachers almost always have stricter evaluations than their private school peers

And yet private schools routinely out perform public schools, and more cheaply.

3. It's naturally easier to have better results in a private school than a public school because private schools can kick out "those" kids, whereas public has to take everybody.

Ok? So lets emulate private schools in public schools.

4. Teachers have ZERO say in the curriculum (at least in my district). I can add additional content that I deem fit, but I have to cover the curriculum...which is put into place by politicians-NOT teachers

Ok? So lets emulate private schools in public schools.

5. I don't know a single teacher (and I literally know 50-60, and know hundreds in passing) that is against alternative schools

You say that, and yet I read about teachers being against charter and private schools, routinely.

And then you have the other side, which is that you see unions organizing strikes and walks out constantly, and lobbying government to prevent such things.

If a teacher supports a union, that is actively preventing students from getting a better education... then their lack of action in support of what is best for students, makes them as guilty in causing bad education.

The bottom line is.....

We have a problem in the education system. To me, all the stuff you listed are endless excuses to continue a bad system. When nearly every single college and university is being forced to provide remedial courses, because people can't do High School level math, reading and writing.... the system is failing.

How does the fact that teachers do not have control over curriculum, make a difference? If you are telling me the curriculum is bad, and the teachers have no control.... then why are private schools doing a better job? Do teachers have more control over curriculum in private schools?

Then that is yet another reason to move to a private school system.

If you are telling me the politicians are intervening in the system and causing the problems, then is that not yet another reason to move to private school system?

So public schools cannot remove problem kids that disrupt the class, and won't do the work to learn anyway? But private schools can? So isn't that alone, a reason to move to a private school system?

Again... Plan A sucks, and doesn't work. We need to move to a plan B. If you are telling me there are these issues, that are causing our system to fail.... then we need a new system, or to eliminate the current system.

Now you say decorations do not matter, and you can say public teachers have stricter whatever, but the fact still remains that private schools have better results for a lower cost.

So I honestly don't know what makes a good school or a bad school. I don't know if plastering the walls with Pandas, instead of multiplication tables, makes a difference. I don't know if having novels with words, instead of picture books of pandas, makes a difference.

What I do know is that a lousy public school with low results and high costs, had things setup one way, and a private school with low costs and high results had it another way.

Now if teachers have a fix, then they need to make those fixes policy. They have a large union system, and they can use those unions to lobby to make the fixes, instead of lobbying against charter schools.

My problem is, every time I see teachers protesting, it's for more money, and to eliminate charter schools. Schools do not more money. We have the most expensive school system on the entire face of the Earth. We spend more money per student than any other country on planet, and we get crappy results relative to the cost. And instead of promoting schools that get better results for a lower cost, they fight to force more students into a bad system.

If teachers have a solution, that doesn't involve forcing kids into bad schools, and demanding more money.... then provide that solution. I'll listen to it. Lets hear the fix.

I've had 3 different conversations about this exact topic, and all three times, no solution was ever given.

Can you make chicken salad out of chicken shit?

If not, stop expecting teachers to do just that, and stop sending students that are nothing more than chicken shit!

Can you read? If you can't, then stop posting. If you can, then you should know your dumb as crap post, doesn't fit with what I said. Listen to what your parents should have taught you, and listen twice as much as you speak. Two ears, one mouth... for a reason..... Shut up, and grow up. Start acting like an adult, and think before you type idiot.

You are just pissed because you have been found guilty of talking smack!

 

[Andylusion]

Have you talked to a highschool student these days .
One thing is sure they are whining little assholes that have no common sense and cry constantly. I think teachers or should I say the school system is why

Why would you ever blame teachers? Are you one of those whining little assholes too?

You cannot make chicken salad out of chicken shit!

Well..... sometimes I think many teachers are to blame. Not all obviously.

So years ago, my church had a roof problem, and we had to meet at a local school instead. We were meeting in the tutoring room.

The room was filled, top to bottom with Pandas. Photos of Pandas, pictures of Pandas, drawings of Pandas, picture books of pandas.... on and on and on.

What wasn't in the room anywhere that I could tell, was a multiplication table.... or reading books, or literature, or anything that would suggest a place of learning. There were painted trees on the wall, to make it look like where Panda's would be living. But nothing on the wall to make it look like where children would be learning.

The exact opposite experience from a private school I visited. There was nothing but multiplication tables, and sentence structure, and everything in the room was designed for the purpose of learning.

Now unless you would suggest that was because of school management, I think it was the teacher who influenced how those rooms were setup.

It is possible that some teachers are really trying their best, and not succeeding. If that is the case, then I still lay some of the blame at the foot of teachers, because they are still defending this system.

If you are trying your best, and you cannot succeed because "You cannot make chicken salad out of chicken shit" then the first thing you should be on board with is, changing the system.

But teachers oppose changes to the system at every single turn. So in that regard, they absolutely are to blame for the bad quality of education.

Few things here:

-Decorations on the wall doesn't equal learning or teaching-it's also dependent on the subject taught. I don't math, but what do you think a kid would actually retain math skills from more, having to memorize formulas and use them on tests-or not have to memorize them, look at them on the wall and follow the instructions given?

-One classroom is hardly an accurate analysis of the education system as a whole

-Public school teachers almost always have stricter evaluations than their private school peers

-It's naturally easier to have better results in a private school than a public school because private schools can kick out "those" kids, whereas public has to take everybody. Class full of gang members and students in sever poverty or a class full of upper middle class kids? Pretty easy to see which class is more likely to perform better in school

-Teachers have ZERO say in the curriculum (at least in my district). I can add additional content that I deem fit, but I have to cover the curriculum...which is put into place by politicians-NOT teachers

-I don't know a single teacher (and I literally know 50-60, and know hundreds in passing) that is against alternative schools instead of a traditional high school, so students learn a trade. Of course the core class like math, science, English would still be taught.

1. Decorations on the wall doesn't equal learning or teaching

And yet private schools routinely out perform public schools.

2. Public school teachers almost always have stricter evaluations than their private school peers

And yet private schools routinely out perform public schools, and more cheaply.

3. It's naturally easier to have better results in a private school than a public school because private schools can kick out "those" kids, whereas public has to take everybody.

Ok? So lets emulate private schools in public schools.

4. Teachers have ZERO say in the curriculum (at least in my district). I can add additional content that I deem fit, but I have to cover the curriculum...which is put into place by politicians-NOT teachers

Ok? So lets emulate private schools in public schools.

5. I don't know a single teacher (and I literally know 50-60, and know hundreds in passing) that is against alternative schools

You say that, and yet I read about teachers being against charter and private schools, routinely.

And then you have the other side, which is that you see unions organizing strikes and walks out constantly, and lobbying government to prevent such things.

If a teacher supports a union, that is actively preventing students from getting a better education... then their lack of action in support of what is best for students, makes them as guilty in causing bad education.

The bottom line is.....

We have a problem in the education system. To me, all the stuff you listed are endless excuses to continue a bad system. When nearly every single college and university is being forced to provide remedial courses, because people can't do High School level math, reading and writing.... the system is failing.

How does the fact that teachers do not have control over curriculum, make a difference? If you are telling me the curriculum is bad, and the teachers have no control.... then why are private schools doing a better job? Do teachers have more control over curriculum in private schools?

Then that is yet another reason to move to a private school system.

If you are telling me the politicians are intervening in the system and causing the problems, then is that not yet another reason to move to private school system?

So public schools cannot remove problem kids that disrupt the class, and won't do the work to learn anyway? But private schools can? So isn't that alone, a reason to move to a private school system?

Again... Plan A sucks, and doesn't work. We need to move to a plan B. If you are telling me there are these issues, that are causing our system to fail.... then we need a new system, or to eliminate the current system.

Now you say decorations do not matter, and you can say public teachers have stricter whatever, but the fact still remains that private schools have better results for a lower cost.

So I honestly don't know what makes a good school or a bad school. I don't know if plastering the walls with Pandas, instead of multiplication tables, makes a difference. I don't know if having novels with words, instead of picture books of pandas, makes a difference.

What I do know is that a lousy public school with low results and high costs, had things setup one way, and a private school with low costs and high results had it another way.

Now if teachers have a fix, then they need to make those fixes policy. They have a large union system, and they can use those unions to lobby to make the fixes, instead of lobbying against charter schools.

My problem is, every time I see teachers protesting, it's for more money, and to eliminate charter schools. Schools do not more money. We have the most expensive school system on the entire face of the Earth. We spend more money per student than any other country on planet, and we get crappy results relative to the cost. And instead of promoting schools that get better results for a lower cost, they fight to force more students into a bad system.

If teachers have a solution, that doesn't involve forcing kids into bad schools, and demanding more money.... then provide that solution. I'll listen to it. Lets hear the fix.

I've had 3 different conversations about this exact topic, and all three times, no solution was ever given.

I'm not making any excuses. I stand behind my performance. My students routinely beat my district, school, and state average on standardized testing (this includes private schools), in terms of gains.

Starting salary in my district is $38K/year. I know what I signed up for...but let's not pretending like teachers are living high on the hog. My district also pays more than most neighboring ones.

Teachers have zero say in any "fixes" that they could potentially offer the school system. Again, read.

I'm all for alternative schools to put students in situations where they can succeed. I stated such earlier in this thread, as well as mentioning that most teachers agree with this assessment. Read.

I never mentioned charter schools whatsoever, so that's completely irrelevant. The local charter school near me recently closed down due to lack of demand.

As for solutions:

Invest in alternative schools where students still learn their core classes (math, science, English, social studies), but also learn a trade for later in life. This will solve TONS of issues in the education system.

Invest more in teacher bonuses, to promote achievement for students.

Invest in classroom infrastructure (working printers, technology, air conditioning, etc).

PS: The Republican governor of my state has suggested doing all of the above.

Stop making this about you. I don't know you. You might be the best teacher that has ever lived. Both my parents were public school teachers. Both got awards for their teaching ability for decades. Literally. By father was in for 38 years, and was the schools elected teachers union representative, and I could tell you a few other things, but you would know who he was. My mother was a teacher for 40 years, and then was rehired after retiring, for another 5 years. Every time we go anywhere, they get stopped by former students.

They might have been the best teachers of their generation, I don't know. They might have had the best students in their time, I don't know.

I'm looking at the system over all. Not individual situation. No matter how you look at our school system, as a whole.... the conclusions are inescapable. We spend more than any other country in the world, on K-12 education, and we end up with mediocre results. We have a national problem of colleges needing to put in place dozens of remedial classes, to get supposedly high school educated students, up to high school education. Something is wrong.

Why are so many top students in remedial classes?

How do so many top students end up in remedial classes?
High schoolers do the hard work to reach their dream of attending college only to find themselves in remedial classes because high school left them unprepared.​

FAIL! Something is wrong!!!

Teachers have zero say in any "fixes" that they could potentially offer the school system.

I don't buy that. Because if I see teachers protesting education policy, then apparently they do have a "say". Again, if you can protest wages, and protest charter school, which I have seen several times in the last 5 years.... then you are protesting a potential fix to the system. If you can protest a solution, then you had better offer a solution.

If teachers can't offer a solution, then I don't want to see teachers protesting.

That is how life works. If you can cause a problem by protesting, but can't provide a solution, then you yourself are a problem.

I'm all for alternative schools to put students in situations where they can succeed. I stated such earlier in this thread, as well as mentioning that most teachers agree with this assessment. Read.

I did read. One internet poster, does not make national movement, anymore than my posts do.

You and one other, on an internet forum, do not make a majority. When I look around at the outside world, I don't see people like you supporting people having options.

https://psmag.com/economics/why-cant-charter-schools-and-teachers-unions-be-friends

The real reason teachers' unions oppose charter schools

Here in Ohio, teachers have been entirely against charter schools.

Opinion: Charter schools are draining LA's public schools. That's why I'm on strike

In LA, teachers oppose charter schools.

Teachers' union considers hard line on charter schools

How many more examples do you need?
And if you are teachers, and you fund these unions, don't tell me "I don't support what the unions are doing" because you do.

So I'm not seeing actions that back up the words you wrote on here.

Invest more in teacher bonuses, to promote achievement for students.

Bonuses? We already have the most expensive education system in the world. You know that over in Finland, the starting pay is $34K to 35K? So they are starting out at a lower wage than you are, and they supposedly have a better education system than we do.

Oh, and they are paying much higher taxes on that $34K. Not school taxes. Finland is spending less per student, than in the US.

The solution is not throwing more money at a system that doesn't work. Any solution you bring that involves more money, I call BS.

Invest in classroom infrastructure (working printers, technology, air conditioning, etc).

Again, bull crap. Private schools spend a ton less money per student, and achieve better results, and they have "working printers, technology, air conditioning, etc".

By the way, technology does not increase education. That mythology. You don't need a working printer, to teach long division. I know, because I was taught such things, without a printer.

Finland did research on this, and found ZERO evidence that technology improved learning. None.

During my Junior year, I was unfortunate enough to go to an inner city school for half a day. It was a huge mistake. I was sitting next to a guy who was in my grade, who asked me how to do a simple long division problem. Something along the lines of 3 divide by 7. I looked at him like he was insane. Pulled out a pen and paper, and he stopped me "No, I mean on this calculator", and slid it over to me.

How can a guy get into 11th grade, and not know how to do long division, without a calculator, let alone with one? You think giving this idiot a working printer and a laptop, is going to help?

You don't need a printer to teach this guy basic math. You need a teacher that is going to start doing their job and teaching.

And if that kid was simply refusing to learn, he should have never been accepted into high school, and certainly no teachers should have allowed him to graduate from 10th grade. Somewhere, a teacher is at fault for him reaching the 11th grade without basic 7th grade math skills.

No, you don't need more money. I'm sorry. Any argument of "well invest in this!".... NO! You don't need more money! You need a system that works. You need to change the policies, or completely rebuild the system from scratch, or we need to simply eliminate the system all together.

But don't give me this we just need more investment crap. No we don't. We have high schools, that are massive, with multi-million dollar football stadiums. You don't need more money.

The school system needs to shape up, and start getting the bang for the buck, or they need to be eliminated.

I was look at some high schools in Finland. One of the public high schools, was an office complex. Cheap. Cost effective. Efficient.

Didn't need a massive square mile campus. Didn't need private sports stadium. Why? BECAUSE THEY ARE TEACHING.... the point of school is to educate, not all this other nonsense.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Few things here:

-Decorations on the wall doesn't equal learning or teaching-it's also dependent on the subject taught. I don't math, but what do you think a kid would actually retain math skills from more, having to memorize formulas and use them on tests-or not have to memorize them, look at them on the wall and follow the instructions given?

-One classroom is hardly an accurate analysis of the education system as a whole

-Public school teachers almost always have stricter evaluations than their private school peers

-It's naturally easier to have better results in a private school than a public school because private schools can kick out "those" kids, whereas public has to take everybody. Class full of gang members and students in sever poverty or a class full of upper middle class kids? Pretty easy to see which class is more likely to perform better in school

-Teachers have ZERO say in the curriculum (at least in my district). I can add additional content that I deem fit, but I have to cover the curriculum...which is put into place by politicians-NOT teachers

-I don't know a single teacher (and I literally know 50-60, and know hundreds in passing) that is against alternative schools instead of a traditional high school, so students learn a trade. Of course the core class like math, science, English would still be taught.

1. Decorations on the wall doesn't equal learning or teaching

And yet private schools routinely out perform public schools.

2. Public school teachers almost always have stricter evaluations than their private school peers

And yet private schools routinely out perform public schools, and more cheaply.

3. It's naturally easier to have better results in a private school than a public school because private schools can kick out "those" kids, whereas public has to take everybody.

Ok? So lets emulate private schools in public schools.

4. Teachers have ZERO say in the curriculum (at least in my district). I can add additional content that I deem fit, but I have to cover the curriculum...which is put into place by politicians-NOT teachers

Ok? So lets emulate private schools in public schools.

5. I don't know a single teacher (and I literally know 50-60, and know hundreds in passing) that is against alternative schools

You say that, and yet I read about teachers being against charter and private schools, routinely.

And then you have the other side, which is that you see unions organizing strikes and walks out constantly, and lobbying government to prevent such things.

If a teacher supports a union, that is actively preventing students from getting a better education... then their lack of action in support of what is best for students, makes them as guilty in causing bad education.

The bottom line is.....

We have a problem in the education system. To me, all the stuff you listed are endless excuses to continue a bad system. When nearly every single college and university is being forced to provide remedial courses, because people can't do High School level math, reading and writing.... the system is failing.

How does the fact that teachers do not have control over curriculum, make a difference? If you are telling me the curriculum is bad, and the teachers have no control.... then why are private schools doing a better job? Do teachers have more control over curriculum in private schools?

Then that is yet another reason to move to a private school system.

If you are telling me the politicians are intervening in the system and causing the problems, then is that not yet another reason to move to private school system?

So public schools cannot remove problem kids that disrupt the class, and won't do the work to learn anyway? But private schools can? So isn't that alone, a reason to move to a private school system?

Again... Plan A sucks, and doesn't work. We need to move to a plan B. If you are telling me there are these issues, that are causing our system to fail.... then we need a new system, or to eliminate the current system.

Now you say decorations do not matter, and you can say public teachers have stricter whatever, but the fact still remains that private schools have better results for a lower cost.

So I honestly don't know what makes a good school or a bad school. I don't know if plastering the walls with Pandas, instead of multiplication tables, makes a difference. I don't know if having novels with words, instead of picture books of pandas, makes a difference.

What I do know is that a lousy public school with low results and high costs, had things setup one way, and a private school with low costs and high results had it another way.

Now if teachers have a fix, then they need to make those fixes policy. They have a large union system, and they can use those unions to lobby to make the fixes, instead of lobbying against charter schools.

My problem is, every time I see teachers protesting, it's for more money, and to eliminate charter schools. Schools do not more money. We have the most expensive school system on the entire face of the Earth. We spend more money per student than any other country on planet, and we get crappy results relative to the cost. And instead of promoting schools that get better results for a lower cost, they fight to force more students into a bad system.

If teachers have a solution, that doesn't involve forcing kids into bad schools, and demanding more money.... then provide that solution. I'll listen to it. Lets hear the fix.

I've had 3 different conversations about this exact topic, and all three times, no solution was ever given.

Can you make chicken salad out of chicken shit?

If not, stop expecting teachers to do just that, and stop sending students that are nothing more than chicken shit!

Can you read? If you can't, then stop posting. If you can, then you should know your dumb as crap post, doesn't fit with what I said. Listen to what your parents should have taught you, and listen twice as much as you speak. Two ears, one mouth... for a reason..... Shut up, and grow up. Start acting like an adult, and think before you type idiot.

You are just pissed because you have been found guilty of talking smack!

No, I get tired of dealing with fools who don't even read. I enjoy an adult conversations. However that involves talking to other adults, not blithering morons who don't even read what was written, and respond without thinking, and come across as a jerk that likes the sounds of his own voice.

I read, and you just have your preconceived notions that are wrong or outdated by 30 years.


You keep confusing alternative schools with charter schools. Why is that? The statement was about alternative schools and you countered with private and charter schools.

Look at this:

"
5. I don't know a single teacher (and I literally know 50-60, and know hundreds in passing) that is against alternative schools

You say that, and yet I read about teachers being against charter and private schools, routinely."

You also keep talking about teacher strikes after you have been shown repeatedly that teacher strikes are illegal almost everywhere. Are you stupid or can you not read?

Most teachers do not like charter schools for one reason and one reason only. They are exempt from all of the rules that make teaching harder in public schools.

I have shown you repeatedly that the reason students struggle in school is they are poor.

Poor students make for poor students.

When Florida was testing all students and I worked there, in graduate school, I created a chart showing the school grades compared to the socioeconomic status of the average student in the district. It was an almost one for match for every school in the district, which was over 100 schools. Schools graded "A" had higher incomes and "F" schools were the inner city schools with kids on welfare. Are you shocked by that revelation? Teachers have known it for years.

The answers to your questions are in these posts, but you are simply an asshole who refuses to accept the truth.

Now, find someone who teaches that honestly disagrees with the points I have made.

 

[Andylusion]

1. Decorations on the wall doesn't equal learning or teaching

And yet private schools routinely out perform public schools.

2. Public school teachers almost always have stricter evaluations than their private school peers

And yet private schools routinely out perform public schools, and more cheaply.

3. It's naturally easier to have better results in a private school than a public school because private schools can kick out "those" kids, whereas public has to take everybody.

Ok? So lets emulate private schools in public schools.

4. Teachers have ZERO say in the curriculum (at least in my district). I can add additional content that I deem fit, but I have to cover the curriculum...which is put into place by politicians-NOT teachers

Ok? So lets emulate private schools in public schools.

5. I don't know a single teacher (and I literally know 50-60, and know hundreds in passing) that is against alternative schools

You say that, and yet I read about teachers being against charter and private schools, routinely.

And then you have the other side, which is that you see unions organizing strikes and walks out constantly, and lobbying government to prevent such things.

If a teacher supports a union, that is actively preventing students from getting a better education... then their lack of action in support of what is best for students, makes them as guilty in causing bad education.

The bottom line is.....

We have a problem in the education system. To me, all the stuff you listed are endless excuses to continue a bad system. When nearly every single college and university is being forced to provide remedial courses, because people can't do High School level math, reading and writing.... the system is failing.

How does the fact that teachers do not have control over curriculum, make a difference? If you are telling me the curriculum is bad, and the teachers have no control.... then why are private schools doing a better job? Do teachers have more control over curriculum in private schools?

Then that is yet another reason to move to a private school system.

If you are telling me the politicians are intervening in the system and causing the problems, then is that not yet another reason to move to private school system?

So public schools cannot remove problem kids that disrupt the class, and won't do the work to learn anyway? But private schools can? So isn't that alone, a reason to move to a private school system?

Again... Plan A sucks, and doesn't work. We need to move to a plan B. If you are telling me there are these issues, that are causing our system to fail.... then we need a new system, or to eliminate the current system.

Now you say decorations do not matter, and you can say public teachers have stricter whatever, but the fact still remains that private schools have better results for a lower cost.

So I honestly don't know what makes a good school or a bad school. I don't know if plastering the walls with Pandas, instead of multiplication tables, makes a difference. I don't know if having novels with words, instead of picture books of pandas, makes a difference.

What I do know is that a lousy public school with low results and high costs, had things setup one way, and a private school with low costs and high results had it another way.

Now if teachers have a fix, then they need to make those fixes policy. They have a large union system, and they can use those unions to lobby to make the fixes, instead of lobbying against charter schools.

My problem is, every time I see teachers protesting, it's for more money, and to eliminate charter schools. Schools do not more money. We have the most expensive school system on the entire face of the Earth. We spend more money per student than any other country on planet, and we get crappy results relative to the cost. And instead of promoting schools that get better results for a lower cost, they fight to force more students into a bad system.

If teachers have a solution, that doesn't involve forcing kids into bad schools, and demanding more money.... then provide that solution. I'll listen to it. Lets hear the fix.

I've had 3 different conversations about this exact topic, and all three times, no solution was ever given.

Can you make chicken salad out of chicken shit?

If not, stop expecting teachers to do just that, and stop sending students that are nothing more than chicken shit!

Can you read? If you can't, then stop posting. If you can, then you should know your dumb as crap post, doesn't fit with what I said. Listen to what your parents should have taught you, and listen twice as much as you speak. Two ears, one mouth... for a reason..... Shut up, and grow up. Start acting like an adult, and think before you type idiot.

You are just pissed because you have been found guilty of talking smack!

No, I get tired of dealing with fools who don't even read. I enjoy an adult conversations. However that involves talking to other adults, not blithering morons who don't even read what was written, and respond without thinking, and come across as a jerk that likes the sounds of his own voice.

I read, and you just have your preconceived notions that are wrong or outdated by 30 years.


You keep confusing alternative schools with charter schools. Why is that? The statement was about alternative schools and you countered with private and charter schools.

Look at this:

"
5. I don't know a single teacher (and I literally know 50-60, and know hundreds in passing) that is against alternative schools

You say that, and yet I read about teachers being against charter and private schools, routinely."

You also keep talking about teacher strikes after you have been shown repeatedly that teacher strikes are illegal almost everywhere. Are you stupid or can you not read?

Most teachers do not like charter schools for one reason and one reason only. They are exempt from all of the rules that make teaching harder in public schools.

I have shown you repeatedly that the reason students struggle in school is they are poor.

Poor students make for poor students.

When Florida was testing all students and I worked there, in graduate school, I created a chart showing the school grades compared to the socioeconomic status of the average student in the district. It was an almost one for match for every school in the district, which was over 100 schools. Schools graded "A" had higher incomes and "F" schools were the inner city schools with kids on welfare. Are you shocked by that revelation? Teachers have known it for years.

The answers to your questions are in these posts, but you are simply an asshole who refuses to accept the truth.

Now, find someone who teaches that honestly disagrees with the points I have made.

Poor students make for poor students.

Nah, bull crap. I don't buy it.

I think people that make that claim are simply looking at numbers, and not cultural values.

A poor kid that has a big work ethic, and a drive to succeed, can do just as well as a rich kid.

The bottom line is not their families income bracket. The bottom line is the work ethic their respective families instill in them.

I've seen poor kids that greatly outperformed myself, and I've seen rich kids that were lazy as snot.

Now typically, a family that is wealthy, is wealthy because they work hard. That hard work ethic is often passed on to the kids. But there is nothing that makes a poor person impossible to teach.

And even then......... That doesn't change the reality that there is a problem.

I said in the prior post.....

During my Junior year, I was unfortunate enough to go to an inner city school for half a day. It was a huge mistake. I was sitting next to a guy who was in my grade, who asked me how to do a simple long division problem. Something along the lines of 3 divide by 7. I looked at him like he was insane. Pulled out a pen and paper, and he stopped me "No, I mean on this calculator", and slid it over to me.

And if that kid was simply refusing to learn, he should have never been accepted into high school, and certainly no teachers should have allowed him to graduate from 10th grade. Somewhere, a teacher is at fault for him reaching the 11th grade without basic 7th grade math skills.
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A several teachers over several years, had to passed that kid. How did someone without 7th grade math, get into 11th grade? Because teachers did a lousy job, and passed a guy who was uneducated.

California: Straight-A high school student not ready for college

How are straight A students ending up in remedial classes in college? Because the teaching system is broken, and needs replaced. Bad teachers, bad policies, bad school system... I don't care what your excuses are... it should be impossible for a kid with straight As, to end up in remedial classes in college.

Your system.... SUCKS. That's a fact. So stop giving me your excuses. Endless excuses for this failing system.

You also keep talking about teacher strikes after you have been shown repeatedly that teacher strikes are illegal almost everywhere.

Denver: Teachers will start strike Monday, after negotiations end - CNN

Fail much?

Most teachers do not like charter schools for one reason and one reason only. They are exempt from all of the rules that make teaching harder in public schools.

Which is more important: Having students get a better education? Or being envious that others schools don't have the rules that hinder your school?

If what you said was true, then should not teachers be pushing to reduce the rules on public schools to match charter schools, so that all the students have a better education? If your system is worse than another system, should you push that the other system be more like yours? Or should you push for your system to be more like theirs?

If you are telling me the only reason teachers are against charter schools, is not because of the quality of education, but because of envy that charter schools have more freedom to provide better education.... than that makes teachers terrible self-centered trash that don't care about their students.

You keep confusing alternative schools with charter schools. Why is that? The statement was about alternative schools and you countered with private and charter schools.

I don't see a difference. Anything that gives students more options to escape a failing system, is good. Teachers should be open and accepting of ANY option that allows students to get a better education.

Saying you'll only allow or support, one specific type of school that you approve of, is exactly how we ended up with the problems we have. Where we are right now in education as a society, is due to this "you can only get an education we approve of you getting" ideology. We need to end that attitude.

I want people to have the freedom to choose whatever education they want, the only limitations being to meet the bare minimum reading, writing, and arithmetic. Parents will naturally gravitate to the best education they can get, on their own, without some self-appointed arrogant overseers passing edicts on what is good.