Why am I a liberal?

[Some Guy]

This is the threat that concerned Jefferson when he spoke of the need for inheritance taxes, not as a form of revenue but a means to protect the democracy from citizens that might become too powerful, and then threaten the will of the people.

For one, others have debunked the idea that Jefferson wanted to end inheritance.

Second, the entire premise of your thoughts, which i applaud you for detailing, is based on people gaining too much power via their wealth. I would offer two counters.

1. If someone was to inherit a large amount of money, he/she can only really have power by spending that money in some way. They would need to have the resources, the knowledge or the help to put that money to good use and keep making money rather than just wasting it. After all, it is possible for people to make millions and have nothing just a couple years later. Plenty of athletes can act as perfect exhibits for this.

2. Clearly your concern here is the money corrupts. So your solution is to give it to the government which is not corrupt? In your estimation, has the government done a good job handling the nation's money, being $15+ trillion in debt? Why does the government thus get to decide what to do with that money? And why should we assume that the government has a noble cause or even the ability to put it to good use? Wouldn't that money be better spent by the heir perhaps starting his/her own company that employs people and creates some good or service beneficial to society?

 

[GoneBezerk]

Since you socialists are opposed to rich families keeping their own wealth, then you need to explain socialist families in power that stay in power (see North Korea) stealing the wealth of their lower class citizens.

The families of Mao, Stalin, Lenin, etc weren't poor and they did everything to keep their gravy train coming at the expense of the workers working in the state-run factories and fields.

Even every society there will always be those that have and those have not. Our system is based on freedom to be a have or have not, not some preprogrammed socialist society where the Obamas, Kennedys, Reids, etc get to stay in power then pass it on to their kids as they die off.

 

[GreatDay]

This is the threat that concerned Jefferson when he spoke of the need for inheritance taxes, not as a form of revenue but a means to protect the democracy from citizens that might become too powerful, and then threaten the will of the people.

For one, others have debunked the idea that Jefferson wanted to end inheritance.

Second, the entire premise of your thoughts, which i applaud you for detailing, is based on people gaining too much power via their wealth. I would offer two counters.

1. If someone was to inherit a large amount of money, he/she can only really have power by spending that money in some way. They would need to have the resources, the knowledge or the help to put that money to good use and keep making money rather than just wasting it. After all, it is possible for people to make millions and have nothing just a couple years later. Plenty of athletes can act as perfect exhibits for this.

2. Clearly your concern here is the money corrupts. So your solution is to give it to the government which is not corrupt? In your estimation, has the government done a good job handling the nation's money, being $15+ trillion in debt? Why does the government thus get to decide what to do with that money? And why should we assume that the government has a noble cause or even the ability to put it to good use? Wouldn't that money be better spent by the heir perhaps starting his/her own company that employs people and creates some good or service beneficial to society?

You seem a little all over the place, but let me address just one of the things you said, the thing is the government already spent the money they already to decide to support the troops and other thing the question now is what is the fair way to pay the bill, as we all know we have kept taxes low so the economy would not be hurt by the war spending and what not, and we all know that the wealth has accumulated in the top 1% so why shouldn't they pay the bill? I'm even willing to wait till they die, if we can wait that long, but to ask those who have not seen their income rise as a result of these low taxes would of course be grossly unfair.

Oh and here's the Jefferson stuff in case you have been misled indeed he did feel the tax was needed to protect the state.

http://books.google.com/books?id=ZT...single observation shall yet be added&f=false

 

[GreatDay]

It is only natural that parents do all they can for their children, however as wealth accumulates this presents a threat to democracy. This is the threat that concerned Jefferson when he spoke of the need for inheritance taxes, not as a form of revenue but a means to protect the democracy from citizens that might become too powerful, and then threaten the will of the people. It is easy to see how this has become the case in America today.

I can't find that quote anywhere but I did find this attributed to Jefferson:
The Greatest Thomas Jefferson quotes

"To take from one because it is thought that his own industry and that of his father’s has acquired too much, in order to spare to others, who, or whose fathers, have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association—the guarantee to every one of a free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it".

Not having a source kinda' blows up the OP's entire thread.

So you think the whole thread rest on the Jefferson reference, think much?

oh and here's the link

http://books.google.com/books?id=ZT...single observation shall yet be added&f=false

that shows thaty Jefferson did in fact feel that way

 

[Ernie S.]

I see the site is filled with deep thinkers, I don't know how to respond, no really, WTF???

Just why do you think YOU are entitled to the fruits of MY labor?

 

[GreatDay]

Since you socialists are opposed to rich families keeping their own wealth, then you need to explain socialist families in power that stay in power (see North Korea) stealing the wealth of their lower class citizens.

The families of Mao, Stalin, Lenin, etc weren't poor and they did everything to keep their gravy train coming at the expense of the workers working in the state-run factories and fields.

Even every society there will always be those that have and those have not. Our system is based on freedom to be a have or have not, not some preprogrammed socialist society where the Obamas, Kennedys, Reids, etc get to stay in power then pass it on to their kids as they die off.

The America Revolution was the largest act of wealth redistribution the world has ever known. The Crown invested billions of today’s dollars and hundreds of years into the colonies. The colonies pasted down through the family like any other trust fund asset. There is no doubt that legally. Internationally recognized, King George owned America. The Founding Fathers stole this country from him; they had some crazy idea that because they had built this country with their sweat and blood, they had more right to it than the person who had made it all possible with billions in investment, imagine that.

 

[Some Guy]

You seem a little all over the place, but let me address just one of the things you said, the thing is the government already spent the money they already to decide to support the troops and other thing the question now is what is the fair way to pay the bill, as we all know we have kept taxes low so the economy would not be hurt by the war spending and what not, and we all know that the wealth has accumulated in the top 1% so why shouldn't they pay the bill? I'm even willing to wait till they die, if we can wait that long, but to ask those who have not seen their income rise as a result of these low taxes would of course be grossly unfair.

Man. Punctuation is your friend.

The idea that the top 1% have gotten richer off the economic downturn, which you seem to be implying, is false. Everyone has taken a hit, including the rich. But obviously they're able to absorb it a bit easier.

The top 5% already pays about 60% of the total taxes the government takes in, or something like that. But in your opinion, they should pay more, seemingly much more, and that's definitely in line with the Robin Hood style liberal thinking.

 

[g5000]

You seem a little all over the place, but let me address just one of the things you said, the thing is the government already spent the money they already to decide to support the troops and other thing the question now is what is the fair way to pay the bill, as we all know we have kept taxes low so the economy would not be hurt by the war spending and what not, and we all know that the wealth has accumulated in the top 1% so why shouldn't they pay the bill? I'm even willing to wait till they die, if we can wait that long, but to ask those who have not seen their income rise as a result of these low taxes would of course be grossly unfair.

Oh and here's the Jefferson stuff in case you have been misled indeed he did feel the tax was needed to protect the state.

The Jeffersonian Cyclopedia: A Comprehensive Collection of the Views of ... - Thomas Jefferson - Google Books

You need to quote exactly what parts of that link you believe support your position, because I strongly suspect you do not comprehend what Jefferson is saying. He is clearly putting forth a case against over-taxation by the government in your link.

.

 

[Truthseeker420]

Well at least we know where the OP is coming from.

As a citizen I say "Get your filthy paws out of my wallet!"

so you're a liberal?

 

[GreatDay]

Well at least we know where the OP is coming from.

As a citizen I say "Get your filthy paws out of my wallet!"

so you're a liberal?

Hey what does that "420" mean anyway? I see it all over the place...

 

[GreatDay]

You're full of shit.

The threat to society isn't old rich people passing on their wealth to their children and grandchildren, the threat is people like you that think you have a right to THEIR money.

They earned that money somehow and sometime, be it last year or 50 years ago. You DIDN'T earn it and don't have a right to it.

The REAL threat is people like you taxing rich people that invest so that they eventually run out of money or just give up investing their money because of the cost and pain of dealing with thieves like you. Rich people can just move away and keep their money hidden off shore when idiots like you drive them to that point with taxes to pay for your "goodies."

So harming the economic progress in this country by taxing "rich" people, you might prevent the next Bill Gates from getting that start up capital to create his company which could solve cancer. Oh, but you dragged everyone down to your level by stealing those rich guys' money to make sure your kids get $100,000 per quarter spent on them in some inefficient education and waste of taxpayer money. That lazy ass teacher thanks you for her $50,000 year job for 9 months a year.....

As a young man in college I was not always the most diligent student. One weekend, near the end of term, was particularly eventful and I found myself on Monday morning sitting, looking at a Dynamics final and no memory of any of the fine formulas we had studied that semester. Then I remembered F=ma. From that kernel I was able to derive all of the formulas I needed and ended up doing pretty well. More importantly, I realized the importance of fundamental concepts; I found that if one has a good understanding of core principles the smaller details are easier to work out. This led me a few years ago to ask myself, aside from the individual policies which align my thinking with “liberals”; why am I a liberal?

After some consideration I arrived on four succinct statements, which I believe also gave me some insight to what motivates the “other” side.

I am a parent.
As a parent I will do anything within my power to advantage my child.
I am a citizen.
As a citizen I believe it is vitally important that we write rules that prevent that.

It is only natural that parents do all they can for their children, however as wealth accumulates this presents a threat to democracy. This is the threat that concerned Jefferson when he spoke of the need for inheritance taxes, not as a form of revenue but a means to protect the democracy from citizens that might become too powerful, and then threaten the will of the people. It is easy to see how this has become the case in America today.

The dangers of inherited wealth to our economy are not unlike monarchy to the health of any nation, when power is derived from birthright rather than one’s labor it is more often foolishly applied. As more and more of our economy becomes “inherited wealth” it becomes more of a target for con men and less a tool for innovators. The world’s financial power has been diverted from improving the human condition into money making schemes designed to enrich those who create them.

I do have some specific suggestions that I feel would be helpful long term:

Public financing for public elections
Flat rate Social Security Tax, first dollar to last all forms of income
Index minimum wage to the average increase in CEO pay for the S&P 500

That’s about it, that shouldn’t be too hard to do, right?

Wouldn't every thing you say have been said to Washington et. al and we would still be under the Crown.

 

[GoneBezerk]

You're a fucking idiot.

Since you socialists are opposed to rich families keeping their own wealth, then you need to explain socialist families in power that stay in power (see North Korea) stealing the wealth of their lower class citizens.

The families of Mao, Stalin, Lenin, etc weren't poor and they did everything to keep their gravy train coming at the expense of the workers working in the state-run factories and fields.

Even every society there will always be those that have and those have not. Our system is based on freedom to be a have or have not, not some preprogrammed socialist society where the Obamas, Kennedys, Reids, etc get to stay in power then pass it on to their kids as they die off.

The America Revolution was the largest act of wealth redistribution the world has ever known. The Crown invested billions of today’s dollars and hundreds of years into the colonies. The colonies pasted down through the family like any other trust fund asset. There is no doubt that legally. Internationally recognized, King George owned America. The Founding Fathers stole this country from him; they had some crazy idea that because they had built this country with their sweat and blood, they had more right to it than the person who had made it all possible with billions in investment, imagine that.

 

[SniperFire]

Why am I a liberal?


Beats workin!

 

[GoneBezerk]

Again, you're a fucking idiot.

You're full of shit.

The threat to society isn't old rich people passing on their wealth to their children and grandchildren, the threat is people like you that think you have a right to THEIR money.

They earned that money somehow and sometime, be it last year or 50 years ago. You DIDN'T earn it and don't have a right to it.

The REAL threat is people like you taxing rich people that invest so that they eventually run out of money or just give up investing their money because of the cost and pain of dealing with thieves like you. Rich people can just move away and keep their money hidden off shore when idiots like you drive them to that point with taxes to pay for your "goodies."

So harming the economic progress in this country by taxing "rich" people, you might prevent the next Bill Gates from getting that start up capital to create his company which could solve cancer. Oh, but you dragged everyone down to your level by stealing those rich guys' money to make sure your kids get $100,000 per quarter spent on them in some inefficient education and waste of taxpayer money. That lazy ass teacher thanks you for her $50,000 year job for 9 months a year.....

As a young man in college I was not always the most diligent student. One weekend, near the end of term, was particularly eventful and I found myself on Monday morning sitting, looking at a Dynamics final and no memory of any of the fine formulas we had studied that semester. Then I remembered F=ma. From that kernel I was able to derive all of the formulas I needed and ended up doing pretty well. More importantly, I realized the importance of fundamental concepts; I found that if one has a good understanding of core principles the smaller details are easier to work out. This led me a few years ago to ask myself, aside from the individual policies which align my thinking with “liberals”; why am I a liberal?

After some consideration I arrived on four succinct statements, which I believe also gave me some insight to what motivates the “other” side.

I am a parent.
As a parent I will do anything within my power to advantage my child.
I am a citizen.
As a citizen I believe it is vitally important that we write rules that prevent that.

It is only natural that parents do all they can for their children, however as wealth accumulates this presents a threat to democracy. This is the threat that concerned Jefferson when he spoke of the need for inheritance taxes, not as a form of revenue but a means to protect the democracy from citizens that might become too powerful, and then threaten the will of the people. It is easy to see how this has become the case in America today.

The dangers of inherited wealth to our economy are not unlike monarchy to the health of any nation, when power is derived from birthright rather than one’s labor it is more often foolishly applied. As more and more of our economy becomes “inherited wealth” it becomes more of a target for con men and less a tool for innovators. The world’s financial power has been diverted from improving the human condition into money making schemes designed to enrich those who create them.

I do have some specific suggestions that I feel would be helpful long term:

Public financing for public elections
Flat rate Social Security Tax, first dollar to last all forms of income
Index minimum wage to the average increase in CEO pay for the S&P 500

That’s about it, that shouldn’t be too hard to do, right?

Wouldn't every thing you say have been said to Washington et. al and we would still be under the Crown.

 

[GreatDay]

How did I take it out of context? Jefferson is saying if the rich get too rich the best thing to do is take it all and spread it around evenly

And you interpreted that to mean "a need for inheritance taxes"? BWA-HA-HA!


What he meant was that instead of all wealth being passed from the father to the oldest son, as was the legal practice in Europe and part of America at that time, that this law of primogeniture should be eliminated and that wealth should be equally inherited by all the children. And this is exactly what he accomplished.

He also wanted to eliminate the law of entail which required your wealth to be inherited by a relative. Eliminating this law allowed for someone to give their wealth to someone outside the family.

In this way, great wealth was broken down over time into smaller and smaller pieces.

50 years later, we find Alexis de Tocqueville writing this:

No sooner was the law of primogeniture abolished than fortunes began to diminish and all the families of the country were simultaneously reduced to a state in which labor became necessary to existence; several of them have since entirely disappeared, and all of them learned to look forward to the time when it would be necessary for everyone to provide for his own wants. Wealthy individuals are still to be met with, but they no longer constitute a compact and hereditary body, nor have they been able to adopt a line of conduct in which they could persevere and which they could infuse into all ranks of society. The prejudice that stigmatized labor was, in the first place, abandoned by common consent, the number of needy men was increased, and the needy were allowed to gain a subsistence by labor without blushing for their toil. Thus one of the most immediate consequences of the equal division of estates has been to create a class of free laborers.

Tocqueville: Book I Chapter 18

, I don't think he ever imagined we would go to war and such without paying for it and end up with the kind of debt we got now, so I say take it and pay the debt, it's just the right thing to do.

Now you are imagining what Jefferson would or would not believe!

.

It is clear that Jefferson was aware that excesive wealth threatened freedom, that aside what do you think restrict what folks can do for their kids or not? Jefferson aside is history all you guys talk about?

 

[GoneBezerk]

Just when I thought liberals were too stupid, claiming the American Revolution was socialism takes the prize.

So the American colonies kicking out British tax collectors and troops because they were being used by the British as pretty much slaves for the "Empire," makes that socialism in the mind of a fucked up liberal.

Soon they will claim Bill Gates inventing Microsoft was socialism to fit their agenda.

 

[GreatDay]

Again, you're a fucking idiot.

You're full of shit.

The threat to society isn't old rich people passing on their wealth to their children and grandchildren, the threat is people like you that think you have a right to THEIR money.

They earned that money somehow and sometime, be it last year or 50 years ago. You DIDN'T earn it and don't have a right to it.

The REAL threat is people like you taxing rich people that invest so that they eventually run out of money or just give up investing their money because of the cost and pain of dealing with thieves like you. Rich people can just move away and keep their money hidden off shore when idiots like you drive them to that point with taxes to pay for your "goodies."

So harming the economic progress in this country by taxing "rich" people, you might prevent the next Bill Gates from getting that start up capital to create his company which could solve cancer. Oh, but you dragged everyone down to your level by stealing those rich guys' money to make sure your kids get $100,000 per quarter spent on them in some inefficient education and waste of taxpayer money. That lazy ass teacher thanks you for her $50,000 year job for 9 months a year.....

Wouldn't every thing you say have been said to Washington et. al and we would still be under the Crown.

Throw the old folks in the street cause cause little Mitty needs a new car elevator...

 

[SniperFire]

Why am I a liberal?

Because you like it up the rear?

 

[Truthseeker420]

Well at least we know where the OP is coming from.

As a citizen I say "Get your filthy paws out of my wallet!"

so you're a liberal?

Hey what does that "420" mean anyway? I see it all over the place...

think date

 

[GreatDay]

Well at least we know where the OP is coming from.

As a citizen I say "Get your filthy paws out of my wallet!"

What do you think about indexing minimum wage to the CEO pay that way the government wouldn’t be telling people how good or bad things are the people who really know would be? I figure you’d like the way market forces would keep everything in check.