Who Are The Palestinians?

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Surrender: cease resistance to an enemy or opponent and submit to their authority.

OK, but didn't the LoN hold the territories in trust for the people? I see nowhere that the LoN or the Mandates took possession of any land.

(COMMENT)

First the Ottoman Empire surrendered to the Allied Powers, then Turkey renounced all it authority over the territory. You don't necessarily see one country take possession of another country --- in a surrender. And, you don't necessity see an exchange of territory. The Allied Powers, to a degree, did not take possession of Japan and Germany at the end of WWII. What you saw was the extension of Allied Authority over that territory. (Noting that the minor exception in that the USSR did partition East Germany from the remainder.)

And YES! The League of Nations via the Allied Powers, did take various territories in trust, which were inhabited by peoples not yet able to stand by themselves under the strenuous conditions of the modern world, and assumed control --- externally placed under a Civil Administration with full power of administration (executive powers) and legislation (law making powers) subject to the terms and authority of the Allied Powers. But the Allied Powers had a stipulation for a portion of Palestine which was unique form all the other Mandates: the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people.

Now the non-Jewish population had two (and only two) sets of rights that were explicitly identified for protection: "nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine" (ie Civil Rights and Religious Rights).

(QUESTION)

In 1922, what were Civil Rights and Religious Rights?

• In 1922, the Religious Rights were fairly simple: The freedom to believe in, and the ability to teaching, practice, worship, and observe the various religious theologies without undue interference. But it was not until 1948 that this right was considered a Universal Human Right (Resolution adopted by the General Assembly Resolution 217 A (III) Universal Declaration of Human Rights).

• In 1922, there was not universal understanding of what was meant by civil rights; but slowly evolving was the concept of equal protect. It was emerging as, in addition to personal liberty, rights to full legal, social, and economic equality.

But you would be hard pressed to make the case that right to sovereignty and independence is included in the civil rights of 1922. So the Question becomes, when the Allied Powers decided on creating a Jewish National Home, did the Arab Palestinians have this elusive set of rights to independence and sovereignty? I would argue that prior to the 1945 Charter, the right of self-determination was only theoretical. And prior to 1960, the definition of the right of self-determination was not clearly articulated.

Adopted by the General Assembly Resolution 1514 (XV) of 14 December 1960

• 
  
  
  • Conscious of the need for the creation of conditions of stability and well-being and peaceful and friendly relations based on respect for the principles of equal rights and self-determination of all peoples, and of universal respect for, and observance of, human rights and fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language or religion;
  • All peoples have the right to self-determination; by virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.

International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights 1966

• 
  
  
  • All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development. (Derivative from the Article 1(2) and Article 55 of the 1945 Charter.)
    • To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace;
    • With a view to the creation of conditions of stability and well-being which are necessary for peaceful and friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, the United Nations shall promote:
      • a. higher standards of living, full employment, and conditions of economic and social progress and development;
      • b. solutions of international economic, social, health, and related problems; and inter- 11 ational cultural and educational cooperation; and
      • c. universal respect for, and observance of, human rights and fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language, or religion.

It was not until 5 NOVEMBER 2013 GA/SHC/4085 that we hear that Self-Determination Integral to Basic Human Rights, Fundamental Freedoms, Third Committee Told as It Concludes General Discussion.

No, in 1922, or for that matter, in 1948, it was clear that the no right of the Arab Palestinian was trampled when the General Assemble set out to implement the Partition Plan.

Most Respectfully,
R

In 1922, what were Civil Rights and Religious Rights?​

Britain tried to remove the Palestinians from their Political Rights. That is the right to develop their own government. This ran contrary to the rights implied by The League of Nations Covenant.

Certain communities formerly belonging to the Turkish Empire have reached a stage of development where their existence as independent nations can be provisionally recognized subject to the rendering of administrative advice and assistance by a Mandatory until such time as they are able to stand alone.​

I believe that the meaning of "stand alone" to be when they created their own functioning government and the Mandate was charged with assisting them to do that.

Britain violently prevented the Palestinians from creating their own government while imposing by force laws and policies against the wishes and best interest of the people.

Since the Mandate failed to create an independent state the creation of Israel was a completely separate issue.

I have asked you to prove your claims about the British many times, yet you never have any proof. Why is that?

OK, here is some but you will not look at it.

 

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Surrender: cease resistance to an enemy or opponent and submit to their authority.

OK, but didn't the LoN hold the territories in trust for the people? I see nowhere that the LoN or the Mandates took possession of any land.

(COMMENT)

First the Ottoman Empire surrendered to the Allied Powers, then Turkey renounced all it authority over the territory. You don't necessarily see one country take possession of another country --- in a surrender. And, you don't necessity see an exchange of territory. The Allied Powers, to a degree, did not take possession of Japan and Germany at the end of WWII. What you saw was the extension of Allied Authority over that territory. (Noting that the minor exception in that the USSR did partition East Germany from the remainder.)

And YES! The League of Nations via the Allied Powers, did take various territories in trust, which were inhabited by peoples not yet able to stand by themselves under the strenuous conditions of the modern world, and assumed control --- externally placed under a Civil Administration with full power of administration (executive powers) and legislation (law making powers) subject to the terms and authority of the Allied Powers. But the Allied Powers had a stipulation for a portion of Palestine which was unique form all the other Mandates: the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people.

Now the non-Jewish population had two (and only two) sets of rights that were explicitly identified for protection: "nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine" (ie Civil Rights and Religious Rights).

(QUESTION)

In 1922, what were Civil Rights and Religious Rights?

• In 1922, the Religious Rights were fairly simple: The freedom to believe in, and the ability to teaching, practice, worship, and observe the various religious theologies without undue interference. But it was not until 1948 that this right was considered a Universal Human Right (Resolution adopted by the General Assembly Resolution 217 A (III) Universal Declaration of Human Rights).

• In 1922, there was not universal understanding of what was meant by civil rights; but slowly evolving was the concept of equal protect. It was emerging as, in addition to personal liberty, rights to full legal, social, and economic equality.

But you would be hard pressed to make the case that right to sovereignty and independence is included in the civil rights of 1922. So the Question becomes, when the Allied Powers decided on creating a Jewish National Home, did the Arab Palestinians have this elusive set of rights to independence and sovereignty? I would argue that prior to the 1945 Charter, the right of self-determination was only theoretical. And prior to 1960, the definition of the right of self-determination was not clearly articulated.

Adopted by the General Assembly Resolution 1514 (XV) of 14 December 1960

• 
  
  
  • Conscious of the need for the creation of conditions of stability and well-being and peaceful and friendly relations based on respect for the principles of equal rights and self-determination of all peoples, and of universal respect for, and observance of, human rights and fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language or religion;
  • All peoples have the right to self-determination; by virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.

International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights 1966

• 
  
  
  • All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development. (Derivative from the Article 1(2) and Article 55 of the 1945 Charter.)
    • To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace;
    • With a view to the creation of conditions of stability and well-being which are necessary for peaceful and friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, the United Nations shall promote:
      • a. higher standards of living, full employment, and conditions of economic and social progress and development;
      • b. solutions of international economic, social, health, and related problems; and inter- 11 ational cultural and educational cooperation; and
      • c. universal respect for, and observance of, human rights and fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language, or religion.

It was not until 5 NOVEMBER 2013 GA/SHC/4085 that we hear that Self-Determination Integral to Basic Human Rights, Fundamental Freedoms, Third Committee Told as It Concludes General Discussion.

No, in 1922, or for that matter, in 1948, it was clear that the no right of the Arab Palestinian was trampled when the General Assemble set out to implement the Partition Plan.

Most Respectfully,
R

In 1922, what were Civil Rights and Religious Rights?​

Britain tried to remove the Palestinians from their Political Rights. That is the right to develop their own government. This ran contrary to the rights implied by The League of Nations Covenant.

Certain communities formerly belonging to the Turkish Empire have reached a stage of development where their existence as independent nations can be provisionally recognized subject to the rendering of administrative advice and assistance by a Mandatory until such time as they are able to stand alone.​

I believe that the meaning of "stand alone" to be when they created their own functioning government and the Mandate was charged with assisting them to do that.

Britain violently prevented the Palestinians from creating their own government while imposing by force laws and policies against the wishes and best interest of the people.

Since the Mandate failed to create an independent state the creation of Israel was a completely separate issue.

I have asked you to prove your claims about the British many times, yet you never have any proof. Why is that?

OK, here is some but you will not look at it.

Watched it and saw it was just the same old islamonazi LIES and propaganda that have no basis in reality. It was produced by the arab muslims so straight away it is heavily biased against the truth and anyone that opposes Islamic world domination and slavery.

 

[MJB12741]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Surrender: cease resistance to an enemy or opponent and submit to their authority.

OK, but didn't the LoN hold the territories in trust for the people? I see nowhere that the LoN or the Mandates took possession of any land.

(COMMENT)

First the Ottoman Empire surrendered to the Allied Powers, then Turkey renounced all it authority over the territory. You don't necessarily see one country take possession of another country --- in a surrender. And, you don't necessity see an exchange of territory. The Allied Powers, to a degree, did not take possession of Japan and Germany at the end of WWII. What you saw was the extension of Allied Authority over that territory. (Noting that the minor exception in that the USSR did partition East Germany from the remainder.)

And YES! The League of Nations via the Allied Powers, did take various territories in trust, which were inhabited by peoples not yet able to stand by themselves under the strenuous conditions of the modern world, and assumed control --- externally placed under a Civil Administration with full power of administration (executive powers) and legislation (law making powers) subject to the terms and authority of the Allied Powers. But the Allied Powers had a stipulation for a portion of Palestine which was unique form all the other Mandates: the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people.

Now the non-Jewish population had two (and only two) sets of rights that were explicitly identified for protection: "nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine" (ie Civil Rights and Religious Rights).

(QUESTION)

In 1922, what were Civil Rights and Religious Rights?

• In 1922, the Religious Rights were fairly simple: The freedom to believe in, and the ability to teaching, practice, worship, and observe the various religious theologies without undue interference. But it was not until 1948 that this right was considered a Universal Human Right (Resolution adopted by the General Assembly Resolution 217 A (III) Universal Declaration of Human Rights).

• In 1922, there was not universal understanding of what was meant by civil rights; but slowly evolving was the concept of equal protect. It was emerging as, in addition to personal liberty, rights to full legal, social, and economic equality.

But you would be hard pressed to make the case that right to sovereignty and independence is included in the civil rights of 1922. So the Question becomes, when the Allied Powers decided on creating a Jewish National Home, did the Arab Palestinians have this elusive set of rights to independence and sovereignty? I would argue that prior to the 1945 Charter, the right of self-determination was only theoretical. And prior to 1960, the definition of the right of self-determination was not clearly articulated.

Adopted by the General Assembly Resolution 1514 (XV) of 14 December 1960

• 
  
  
  • Conscious of the need for the creation of conditions of stability and well-being and peaceful and friendly relations based on respect for the principles of equal rights and self-determination of all peoples, and of universal respect for, and observance of, human rights and fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language or religion;
  • All peoples have the right to self-determination; by virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.

International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights 1966

• 
  
  
  • All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development. (Derivative from the Article 1(2) and Article 55 of the 1945 Charter.)
    • To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace;
    • With a view to the creation of conditions of stability and well-being which are necessary for peaceful and friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, the United Nations shall promote:
      • a. higher standards of living, full employment, and conditions of economic and social progress and development;
      • b. solutions of international economic, social, health, and related problems; and inter- 11 ational cultural and educational cooperation; and
      • c. universal respect for, and observance of, human rights and fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language, or religion.

It was not until 5 NOVEMBER 2013 GA/SHC/4085 that we hear that Self-Determination Integral to Basic Human Rights, Fundamental Freedoms, Third Committee Told as It Concludes General Discussion.

No, in 1922, or for that matter, in 1948, it was clear that the no right of the Arab Palestinian was trampled when the General Assemble set out to implement the Partition Plan.

Most Respectfully,
R

In 1922, what were Civil Rights and Religious Rights?​

Britain tried to remove the Palestinians from their Political Rights. That is the right to develop their own government. This ran contrary to the rights implied by The League of Nations Covenant.

Certain communities formerly belonging to the Turkish Empire have reached a stage of development where their existence as independent nations can be provisionally recognized subject to the rendering of administrative advice and assistance by a Mandatory until such time as they are able to stand alone.​

I believe that the meaning of "stand alone" to be when they created their own functioning government and the Mandate was charged with assisting them to do that.

Britain violently prevented the Palestinians from creating their own government while imposing by force laws and policies against the wishes and best interest of the people.

Since the Mandate failed to create an independent state the creation of Israel was a completely separate issue.

I have asked you to prove your claims about the British many times, yet you never have any proof. Why is that?

OK, here is some but you will not look at it.

P F Tinmore, et al,

Surrender: cease resistance to an enemy or opponent and submit to their authority.

OK, but didn't the LoN hold the territories in trust for the people? I see nowhere that the LoN or the Mandates took possession of any land.

(COMMENT)

First the Ottoman Empire surrendered to the Allied Powers, then Turkey renounced all it authority over the territory. You don't necessarily see one country take possession of another country --- in a surrender. And, you don't necessity see an exchange of territory. The Allied Powers, to a degree, did not take possession of Japan and Germany at the end of WWII. What you saw was the extension of Allied Authority over that territory. (Noting that the minor exception in that the USSR did partition East Germany from the remainder.)

And YES! The League of Nations via the Allied Powers, did take various territories in trust, which were inhabited by peoples not yet able to stand by themselves under the strenuous conditions of the modern world, and assumed control --- externally placed under a Civil Administration with full power of administration (executive powers) and legislation (law making powers) subject to the terms and authority of the Allied Powers. But the Allied Powers had a stipulation for a portion of Palestine which was unique form all the other Mandates: the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people.

Now the non-Jewish population had two (and only two) sets of rights that were explicitly identified for protection: "nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine" (ie Civil Rights and Religious Rights).

(QUESTION)

In 1922, what were Civil Rights and Religious Rights?

• In 1922, the Religious Rights were fairly simple: The freedom to believe in, and the ability to teaching, practice, worship, and observe the various religious theologies without undue interference. But it was not until 1948 that this right was considered a Universal Human Right (Resolution adopted by the General Assembly Resolution 217 A (III) Universal Declaration of Human Rights).

• In 1922, there was not universal understanding of what was meant by civil rights; but slowly evolving was the concept of equal protect. It was emerging as, in addition to personal liberty, rights to full legal, social, and economic equality.

But you would be hard pressed to make the case that right to sovereignty and independence is included in the civil rights of 1922. So the Question becomes, when the Allied Powers decided on creating a Jewish National Home, did the Arab Palestinians have this elusive set of rights to independence and sovereignty? I would argue that prior to the 1945 Charter, the right of self-determination was only theoretical. And prior to 1960, the definition of the right of self-determination was not clearly articulated.

Adopted by the General Assembly Resolution 1514 (XV) of 14 December 1960

• 
  
  
  • Conscious of the need for the creation of conditions of stability and well-being and peaceful and friendly relations based on respect for the principles of equal rights and self-determination of all peoples, and of universal respect for, and observance of, human rights and fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language or religion;
  • All peoples have the right to self-determination; by virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.

International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights 1966

• 
  
  
  • All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development. (Derivative from the Article 1(2) and Article 55 of the 1945 Charter.)
    • To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace;
    • With a view to the creation of conditions of stability and well-being which are necessary for peaceful and friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, the United Nations shall promote:
      • a. higher standards of living, full employment, and conditions of economic and social progress and development;
      • b. solutions of international economic, social, health, and related problems; and inter- 11 ational cultural and educational cooperation; and
      • c. universal respect for, and observance of, human rights and fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language, or religion.

It was not until 5 NOVEMBER 2013 GA/SHC/4085 that we hear that Self-Determination Integral to Basic Human Rights, Fundamental Freedoms, Third Committee Told as It Concludes General Discussion.

No, in 1922, or for that matter, in 1948, it was clear that the no right of the Arab Palestinian was trampled when the General Assemble set out to implement the Partition Plan.

Most Respectfully,
R

In 1922, what were Civil Rights and Religious Rights?​

Britain tried to remove the Palestinians from their Political Rights. That is the right to develop their own government. This ran contrary to the rights implied by The League of Nations Covenant.

Certain communities formerly belonging to the Turkish Empire have reached a stage of development where their existence as independent nations can be provisionally recognized subject to the rendering of administrative advice and assistance by a Mandatory until such time as they are able to stand alone.​

I believe that the meaning of "stand alone" to be when they created their own functioning government and the Mandate was charged with assisting them to do that.

Britain violently prevented the Palestinians from creating their own government while imposing by force laws and policies against the wishes and best interest of the people.

Since the Mandate failed to create an independent state the creation of Israel was a completely separate issue.

I have asked you to prove your claims about the British many times, yet you never have any proof. Why is that?

OK, here is some but you will not look at it.

And yet another of Tinmore's famous, unbiased, honest Al Jazeera source documentation. Ya gotta love him for all the fun & laughs he gives us. Heh Heh!

 

[Hossfly]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Surrender: cease resistance to an enemy or opponent and submit to their authority.

OK, but didn't the LoN hold the territories in trust for the people? I see nowhere that the LoN or the Mandates took possession of any land.

(COMMENT)

First the Ottoman Empire surrendered to the Allied Powers, then Turkey renounced all it authority over the territory. You don't necessarily see one country take possession of another country --- in a surrender. And, you don't necessity see an exchange of territory. The Allied Powers, to a degree, did not take possession of Japan and Germany at the end of WWII. What you saw was the extension of Allied Authority over that territory. (Noting that the minor exception in that the USSR did partition East Germany from the remainder.)

And YES! The League of Nations via the Allied Powers, did take various territories in trust, which were inhabited by peoples not yet able to stand by themselves under the strenuous conditions of the modern world, and assumed control --- externally placed under a Civil Administration with full power of administration (executive powers) and legislation (law making powers) subject to the terms and authority of the Allied Powers. But the Allied Powers had a stipulation for a portion of Palestine which was unique form all the other Mandates: the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people.

Now the non-Jewish population had two (and only two) sets of rights that were explicitly identified for protection: "nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine" (ie Civil Rights and Religious Rights).

(QUESTION)

In 1922, what were Civil Rights and Religious Rights?

• In 1922, the Religious Rights were fairly simple: The freedom to believe in, and the ability to teaching, practice, worship, and observe the various religious theologies without undue interference. But it was not until 1948 that this right was considered a Universal Human Right (Resolution adopted by the General Assembly Resolution 217 A (III) Universal Declaration of Human Rights).

• In 1922, there was not universal understanding of what was meant by civil rights; but slowly evolving was the concept of equal protect. It was emerging as, in addition to personal liberty, rights to full legal, social, and economic equality.

But you would be hard pressed to make the case that right to sovereignty and independence is included in the civil rights of 1922. So the Question becomes, when the Allied Powers decided on creating a Jewish National Home, did the Arab Palestinians have this elusive set of rights to independence and sovereignty? I would argue that prior to the 1945 Charter, the right of self-determination was only theoretical. And prior to 1960, the definition of the right of self-determination was not clearly articulated.

Adopted by the General Assembly Resolution 1514 (XV) of 14 December 1960

• 
  
  
  • Conscious of the need for the creation of conditions of stability and well-being and peaceful and friendly relations based on respect for the principles of equal rights and self-determination of all peoples, and of universal respect for, and observance of, human rights and fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language or religion;
  • All peoples have the right to self-determination; by virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.

International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights 1966

• 
  
  
  • All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development. (Derivative from the Article 1(2) and Article 55 of the 1945 Charter.)
    • To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace;
    • With a view to the creation of conditions of stability and well-being which are necessary for peaceful and friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, the United Nations shall promote:
      • a. higher standards of living, full employment, and conditions of economic and social progress and development;
      • b. solutions of international economic, social, health, and related problems; and inter- 11 ational cultural and educational cooperation; and
      • c. universal respect for, and observance of, human rights and fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language, or religion.

It was not until 5 NOVEMBER 2013 GA/SHC/4085 that we hear that Self-Determination Integral to Basic Human Rights, Fundamental Freedoms, Third Committee Told as It Concludes General Discussion.

No, in 1922, or for that matter, in 1948, it was clear that the no right of the Arab Palestinian was trampled when the General Assemble set out to implement the Partition Plan.

Most Respectfully,
R

In 1922, what were Civil Rights and Religious Rights?​

Britain tried to remove the Palestinians from their Political Rights. That is the right to develop their own government. This ran contrary to the rights implied by The League of Nations Covenant.

Certain communities formerly belonging to the Turkish Empire have reached a stage of development where their existence as independent nations can be provisionally recognized subject to the rendering of administrative advice and assistance by a Mandatory until such time as they are able to stand alone.​

I believe that the meaning of "stand alone" to be when they created their own functioning government and the Mandate was charged with assisting them to do that.

Britain violently prevented the Palestinians from creating their own government while imposing by force laws and policies against the wishes and best interest of the people.

Since the Mandate failed to create an independent state the creation of Israel was a completely separate issue.

I have asked you to prove your claims about the British many times, yet you never have any proof. Why is that?

OK, here is some but you will not look at it.

P F Tinmore, et al,

Surrender: cease resistance to an enemy or opponent and submit to their authority.

OK, but didn't the LoN hold the territories in trust for the people? I see nowhere that the LoN or the Mandates took possession of any land.

(COMMENT)

First the Ottoman Empire surrendered to the Allied Powers, then Turkey renounced all it authority over the territory. You don't necessarily see one country take possession of another country --- in a surrender. And, you don't necessity see an exchange of territory. The Allied Powers, to a degree, did not take possession of Japan and Germany at the end of WWII. What you saw was the extension of Allied Authority over that territory. (Noting that the minor exception in that the USSR did partition East Germany from the remainder.)

And YES! The League of Nations via the Allied Powers, did take various territories in trust, which were inhabited by peoples not yet able to stand by themselves under the strenuous conditions of the modern world, and assumed control --- externally placed under a Civil Administration with full power of administration (executive powers) and legislation (law making powers) subject to the terms and authority of the Allied Powers. But the Allied Powers had a stipulation for a portion of Palestine which was unique form all the other Mandates: the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people.

Now the non-Jewish population had two (and only two) sets of rights that were explicitly identified for protection: "nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine" (ie Civil Rights and Religious Rights).

(QUESTION)

In 1922, what were Civil Rights and Religious Rights?

• In 1922, the Religious Rights were fairly simple: The freedom to believe in, and the ability to teaching, practice, worship, and observe the various religious theologies without undue interference. But it was not until 1948 that this right was considered a Universal Human Right (Resolution adopted by the General Assembly Resolution 217 A (III) Universal Declaration of Human Rights).

• In 1922, there was not universal understanding of what was meant by civil rights; but slowly evolving was the concept of equal protect. It was emerging as, in addition to personal liberty, rights to full legal, social, and economic equality.

But you would be hard pressed to make the case that right to sovereignty and independence is included in the civil rights of 1922. So the Question becomes, when the Allied Powers decided on creating a Jewish National Home, did the Arab Palestinians have this elusive set of rights to independence and sovereignty? I would argue that prior to the 1945 Charter, the right of self-determination was only theoretical. And prior to 1960, the definition of the right of self-determination was not clearly articulated.

Adopted by the General Assembly Resolution 1514 (XV) of 14 December 1960

• 
  
  
  • Conscious of the need for the creation of conditions of stability and well-being and peaceful and friendly relations based on respect for the principles of equal rights and self-determination of all peoples, and of universal respect for, and observance of, human rights and fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language or religion;
  • All peoples have the right to self-determination; by virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.

International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights 1966

• 
  
  
  • All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development. (Derivative from the Article 1(2) and Article 55 of the 1945 Charter.)
    • To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace;
    • With a view to the creation of conditions of stability and well-being which are necessary for peaceful and friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, the United Nations shall promote:
      • a. higher standards of living, full employment, and conditions of economic and social progress and development;
      • b. solutions of international economic, social, health, and related problems; and inter- 11 ational cultural and educational cooperation; and
      • c. universal respect for, and observance of, human rights and fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language, or religion.

It was not until 5 NOVEMBER 2013 GA/SHC/4085 that we hear that Self-Determination Integral to Basic Human Rights, Fundamental Freedoms, Third Committee Told as It Concludes General Discussion.

No, in 1922, or for that matter, in 1948, it was clear that the no right of the Arab Palestinian was trampled when the General Assemble set out to implement the Partition Plan.

Most Respectfully,
R

In 1922, what were Civil Rights and Religious Rights?​

Britain tried to remove the Palestinians from their Political Rights. That is the right to develop their own government. This ran contrary to the rights implied by The League of Nations Covenant.

Certain communities formerly belonging to the Turkish Empire have reached a stage of development where their existence as independent nations can be provisionally recognized subject to the rendering of administrative advice and assistance by a Mandatory until such time as they are able to stand alone.​

I believe that the meaning of "stand alone" to be when they created their own functioning government and the Mandate was charged with assisting them to do that.

Britain violently prevented the Palestinians from creating their own government while imposing by force laws and policies against the wishes and best interest of the people.

Since the Mandate failed to create an independent state the creation of Israel was a completely separate issue.

I have asked you to prove your claims about the British many times, yet you never have any proof. Why is that?

OK, here is some but you will not look at it.

And yet another of Tinmore's famous, unbiased, honest Al Jazeera source documentation. Ya gotta love him for all the fun & laughs he gives us. Heh Heh!

I didn't want to be the bearer of bad news but he is playing rope-a-dope with Rocco and getting ready to deliver the knock out punch. That Tinmore is one sly dude. Keep your guard up, Rocco.

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Surrender: cease resistance to an enemy or opponent and submit to their authority.

OK, but didn't the LoN hold the territories in trust for the people? I see nowhere that the LoN or the Mandates took possession of any land.

(COMMENT)

First the Ottoman Empire surrendered to the Allied Powers, then Turkey renounced all it authority over the territory. You don't necessarily see one country take possession of another country --- in a surrender. And, you don't necessity see an exchange of territory. The Allied Powers, to a degree, did not take possession of Japan and Germany at the end of WWII. What you saw was the extension of Allied Authority over that territory. (Noting that the minor exception in that the USSR did partition East Germany from the remainder.)

And YES! The League of Nations via the Allied Powers, did take various territories in trust, which were inhabited by peoples not yet able to stand by themselves under the strenuous conditions of the modern world, and assumed control --- externally placed under a Civil Administration with full power of administration (executive powers) and legislation (law making powers) subject to the terms and authority of the Allied Powers. But the Allied Powers had a stipulation for a portion of Palestine which was unique form all the other Mandates: the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people.

Now the non-Jewish population had two (and only two) sets of rights that were explicitly identified for protection: "nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine" (ie Civil Rights and Religious Rights).

(QUESTION)

In 1922, what were Civil Rights and Religious Rights?

• In 1922, the Religious Rights were fairly simple: The freedom to believe in, and the ability to teaching, practice, worship, and observe the various religious theologies without undue interference. But it was not until 1948 that this right was considered a Universal Human Right (Resolution adopted by the General Assembly Resolution 217 A (III) Universal Declaration of Human Rights).

• In 1922, there was not universal understanding of what was meant by civil rights; but slowly evolving was the concept of equal protect. It was emerging as, in addition to personal liberty, rights to full legal, social, and economic equality.

But you would be hard pressed to make the case that right to sovereignty and independence is included in the civil rights of 1922. So the Question becomes, when the Allied Powers decided on creating a Jewish National Home, did the Arab Palestinians have this elusive set of rights to independence and sovereignty? I would argue that prior to the 1945 Charter, the right of self-determination was only theoretical. And prior to 1960, the definition of the right of self-determination was not clearly articulated.

Adopted by the General Assembly Resolution 1514 (XV) of 14 December 1960

• 
  
  
  • Conscious of the need for the creation of conditions of stability and well-being and peaceful and friendly relations based on respect for the principles of equal rights and self-determination of all peoples, and of universal respect for, and observance of, human rights and fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language or religion;
  • All peoples have the right to self-determination; by virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.

International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights 1966

• 
  
  
  • All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development. (Derivative from the Article 1(2) and Article 55 of the 1945 Charter.)
    • To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace;
    • With a view to the creation of conditions of stability and well-being which are necessary for peaceful and friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, the United Nations shall promote:
      • a. higher standards of living, full employment, and conditions of economic and social progress and development;
      • b. solutions of international economic, social, health, and related problems; and inter- 11 ational cultural and educational cooperation; and
      • c. universal respect for, and observance of, human rights and fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language, or religion.

It was not until 5 NOVEMBER 2013 GA/SHC/4085 that we hear that Self-Determination Integral to Basic Human Rights, Fundamental Freedoms, Third Committee Told as It Concludes General Discussion.

No, in 1922, or for that matter, in 1948, it was clear that the no right of the Arab Palestinian was trampled when the General Assemble set out to implement the Partition Plan.

Most Respectfully,
R

In 1922, what were Civil Rights and Religious Rights?​

Britain tried to remove the Palestinians from their Political Rights. That is the right to develop their own government. This ran contrary to the rights implied by The League of Nations Covenant.

Certain communities formerly belonging to the Turkish Empire have reached a stage of development where their existence as independent nations can be provisionally recognized subject to the rendering of administrative advice and assistance by a Mandatory until such time as they are able to stand alone.​

I believe that the meaning of "stand alone" to be when they created their own functioning government and the Mandate was charged with assisting them to do that.

Britain violently prevented the Palestinians from creating their own government while imposing by force laws and policies against the wishes and best interest of the people.

Since the Mandate failed to create an independent state the creation of Israel was a completely separate issue.

I have asked you to prove your claims about the British many times, yet you never have any proof. Why is that?

OK, here is some but you will not look at it.

Watched it and saw it was just the same old islamonazi LIES and propaganda that have no basis in reality. It was produced by the arab muslims so straight away it is heavily biased against the truth and anyone that opposes Islamic world domination and slavery.

What did they say that you believe is false?

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Surrender: cease resistance to an enemy or opponent and submit to their authority.

OK, but didn't the LoN hold the territories in trust for the people? I see nowhere that the LoN or the Mandates took possession of any land.

(COMMENT)

First the Ottoman Empire surrendered to the Allied Powers, then Turkey renounced all it authority over the territory. You don't necessarily see one country take possession of another country --- in a surrender. And, you don't necessity see an exchange of territory. The Allied Powers, to a degree, did not take possession of Japan and Germany at the end of WWII. What you saw was the extension of Allied Authority over that territory. (Noting that the minor exception in that the USSR did partition East Germany from the remainder.)

And YES! The League of Nations via the Allied Powers, did take various territories in trust, which were inhabited by peoples not yet able to stand by themselves under the strenuous conditions of the modern world, and assumed control --- externally placed under a Civil Administration with full power of administration (executive powers) and legislation (law making powers) subject to the terms and authority of the Allied Powers. But the Allied Powers had a stipulation for a portion of Palestine which was unique form all the other Mandates: the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people.

Now the non-Jewish population had two (and only two) sets of rights that were explicitly identified for protection: "nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine" (ie Civil Rights and Religious Rights).

(QUESTION)

In 1922, what were Civil Rights and Religious Rights?

• In 1922, the Religious Rights were fairly simple: The freedom to believe in, and the ability to teaching, practice, worship, and observe the various religious theologies without undue interference. But it was not until 1948 that this right was considered a Universal Human Right (Resolution adopted by the General Assembly Resolution 217 A (III) Universal Declaration of Human Rights).

• In 1922, there was not universal understanding of what was meant by civil rights; but slowly evolving was the concept of equal protect. It was emerging as, in addition to personal liberty, rights to full legal, social, and economic equality.

But you would be hard pressed to make the case that right to sovereignty and independence is included in the civil rights of 1922. So the Question becomes, when the Allied Powers decided on creating a Jewish National Home, did the Arab Palestinians have this elusive set of rights to independence and sovereignty? I would argue that prior to the 1945 Charter, the right of self-determination was only theoretical. And prior to 1960, the definition of the right of self-determination was not clearly articulated.

Adopted by the General Assembly Resolution 1514 (XV) of 14 December 1960

• 
  
  
  • Conscious of the need for the creation of conditions of stability and well-being and peaceful and friendly relations based on respect for the principles of equal rights and self-determination of all peoples, and of universal respect for, and observance of, human rights and fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language or religion;
  • All peoples have the right to self-determination; by virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.

International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights 1966

• 
  
  
  • All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development. (Derivative from the Article 1(2) and Article 55 of the 1945 Charter.)
    • To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace;
    • With a view to the creation of conditions of stability and well-being which are necessary for peaceful and friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, the United Nations shall promote:
      • a. higher standards of living, full employment, and conditions of economic and social progress and development;
      • b. solutions of international economic, social, health, and related problems; and inter- 11 ational cultural and educational cooperation; and
      • c. universal respect for, and observance of, human rights and fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language, or religion.

It was not until 5 NOVEMBER 2013 GA/SHC/4085 that we hear that Self-Determination Integral to Basic Human Rights, Fundamental Freedoms, Third Committee Told as It Concludes General Discussion.

No, in 1922, or for that matter, in 1948, it was clear that the no right of the Arab Palestinian was trampled when the General Assemble set out to implement the Partition Plan.

Most Respectfully,
R

It was not until 5 NOVEMBER 2013 GA/SHC/4085 that we hear that Self-Determination Integral to Basic Human Rights, Fundamental Freedoms, Third Committee Told as It Concludes General Discussion.​

Then it is interesting that the Palestinians invoked the right to self determination in their 1948 declaration of independence.

I HAVE THE HONOR TO INFORM YOUR EXCELLENCY THAT IN VIRTUE OF THE NATURAL RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE OF PALESTINE FOR SELF-DETERMINATION WHICH PRINCIPLE IS SUPPORTED BY THE CHARTERS OF THE LEAGUE OF NATIONS, THE UNITED NATIONS AND OTHERS AND...

A C.1 330 of 14 October 1948​

It looks like you are trying to mislead.

 

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Surrender: cease resistance to an enemy or opponent and submit to their authority.

(COMMENT)

First the Ottoman Empire surrendered to the Allied Powers, then Turkey renounced all it authority over the territory. You don't necessarily see one country take possession of another country --- in a surrender. And, you don't necessity see an exchange of territory. The Allied Powers, to a degree, did not take possession of Japan and Germany at the end of WWII. What you saw was the extension of Allied Authority over that territory. (Noting that the minor exception in that the USSR did partition East Germany from the remainder.)

And YES! The League of Nations via the Allied Powers, did take various territories in trust, which were inhabited by peoples not yet able to stand by themselves under the strenuous conditions of the modern world, and assumed control --- externally placed under a Civil Administration with full power of administration (executive powers) and legislation (law making powers) subject to the terms and authority of the Allied Powers. But the Allied Powers had a stipulation for a portion of Palestine which was unique form all the other Mandates: the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people.

Now the non-Jewish population had two (and only two) sets of rights that were explicitly identified for protection: "nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine" (ie Civil Rights and Religious Rights).

(QUESTION)

In 1922, what were Civil Rights and Religious Rights?

• In 1922, the Religious Rights were fairly simple: The freedom to believe in, and the ability to teaching, practice, worship, and observe the various religious theologies without undue interference. But it was not until 1948 that this right was considered a Universal Human Right (Resolution adopted by the General Assembly Resolution 217 A (III) Universal Declaration of Human Rights).

• In 1922, there was not universal understanding of what was meant by civil rights; but slowly evolving was the concept of equal protect. It was emerging as, in addition to personal liberty, rights to full legal, social, and economic equality.

But you would be hard pressed to make the case that right to sovereignty and independence is included in the civil rights of 1922. So the Question becomes, when the Allied Powers decided on creating a Jewish National Home, did the Arab Palestinians have this elusive set of rights to independence and sovereignty? I would argue that prior to the 1945 Charter, the right of self-determination was only theoretical. And prior to 1960, the definition of the right of self-determination was not clearly articulated.

Adopted by the General Assembly Resolution 1514 (XV) of 14 December 1960

• 
  
  
  • Conscious of the need for the creation of conditions of stability and well-being and peaceful and friendly relations based on respect for the principles of equal rights and self-determination of all peoples, and of universal respect for, and observance of, human rights and fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language or religion;
  • All peoples have the right to self-determination; by virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.

International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights 1966

• 
  
  
  • All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development. (Derivative from the Article 1(2) and Article 55 of the 1945 Charter.)
    • To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace;
    • With a view to the creation of conditions of stability and well-being which are necessary for peaceful and friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, the United Nations shall promote:
      • a. higher standards of living, full employment, and conditions of economic and social progress and development;
      • b. solutions of international economic, social, health, and related problems; and inter- 11 ational cultural and educational cooperation; and
      • c. universal respect for, and observance of, human rights and fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language, or religion.

It was not until 5 NOVEMBER 2013 GA/SHC/4085 that we hear that Self-Determination Integral to Basic Human Rights, Fundamental Freedoms, Third Committee Told as It Concludes General Discussion.

No, in 1922, or for that matter, in 1948, it was clear that the no right of the Arab Palestinian was trampled when the General Assemble set out to implement the Partition Plan.

Most Respectfully,
R

In 1922, what were Civil Rights and Religious Rights?​

Britain tried to remove the Palestinians from their Political Rights. That is the right to develop their own government. This ran contrary to the rights implied by The League of Nations Covenant.

Certain communities formerly belonging to the Turkish Empire have reached a stage of development where their existence as independent nations can be provisionally recognized subject to the rendering of administrative advice and assistance by a Mandatory until such time as they are able to stand alone.​

I believe that the meaning of "stand alone" to be when they created their own functioning government and the Mandate was charged with assisting them to do that.

Britain violently prevented the Palestinians from creating their own government while imposing by force laws and policies against the wishes and best interest of the people.

Since the Mandate failed to create an independent state the creation of Israel was a completely separate issue.

I have asked you to prove your claims about the British many times, yet you never have any proof. Why is that?

OK, here is some but you will not look at it.

Watched it and saw it was just the same old islamonazi LIES and propaganda that have no basis in reality. It was produced by the arab muslims so straight away it is heavily biased against the truth and anyone that opposes Islamic world domination and slavery.

What did they say that you believe is false?

All of it

 

[P F Tinmore]

In 1922, what were Civil Rights and Religious Rights?​

Britain tried to remove the Palestinians from their Political Rights. That is the right to develop their own government. This ran contrary to the rights implied by The League of Nations Covenant.

Certain communities formerly belonging to the Turkish Empire have reached a stage of development where their existence as independent nations can be provisionally recognized subject to the rendering of administrative advice and assistance by a Mandatory until such time as they are able to stand alone.​

I believe that the meaning of "stand alone" to be when they created their own functioning government and the Mandate was charged with assisting them to do that.

Britain violently prevented the Palestinians from creating their own government while imposing by force laws and policies against the wishes and best interest of the people.

Since the Mandate failed to create an independent state the creation of Israel was a completely separate issue.

I have asked you to prove your claims about the British many times, yet you never have any proof. Why is that?

OK, here is some but you will not look at it.

Watched it and saw it was just the same old islamonazi LIES and propaganda that have no basis in reality. It was produced by the arab muslims so straight away it is heavily biased against the truth and anyone that opposes Islamic world domination and slavery.

What did they say that you believe is false?

All of it

You sound like a teenage girl explaining what she doesn't like about her ex.

 

[Phoenall]

I have asked you to prove your claims about the British many times, yet you never have any proof. Why is that?

OK, here is some but you will not look at it.

Watched it and saw it was just the same old islamonazi LIES and propaganda that have no basis in reality. It was produced by the arab muslims so straight away it is heavily biased against the truth and anyone that opposes Islamic world domination and slavery.

What did they say that you believe is false?

All of it

You sound like a teenage girl explaining what she doesn't like about her ex.

And you sound like a brainwashed stooge that cant think for themselves.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

No, you are conveniently misreading the intent. You are misleading the other members of the discussion group by not fully quoting the salient point of the posting.

It was not until 5 NOVEMBER 2013 GA/SHC/4085 that we hear that Self-Determination Integral to Basic Human Rights, Fundamental Freedoms, Third Committee Told as It Concludes General Discussion.​

Then it is interesting that the Palestinians invoked the right to self determination in their 1948 declaration of independence.

I HAVE THE HONOR TO INFORM YOUR EXCELLENCY THAT IN VIRTUE OF THE NATURAL RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE OF PALESTINE FOR SELF-DETERMINATION WHICH PRINCIPLE IS SUPPORTED BY THE CHARTERS OF THE LEAGUE OF NATIONS, THE UNITED NATIONS AND OTHERS AND...

A C.1 330 of 14 October 1948​

It looks like you are trying to mislead.

(COMMENT)

As I have said before, the first time self-determination is mention as a formal matter is in the 1945 UN Charter. You quoted Posting 2776, but conveniently left out the lead-in. I repost a salient point form the earlier post for clarification:

• All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development. (Derivative from the Article 1(2) and Article 55 of the 1945 Charter.)
  • To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace;
  • With a view to the creation of conditions of stability and well-being which are necessary for peaceful and friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, the United Nations shall promote:
    • a. higher standards of living, full employment, and conditions of economic and social progress and development;
    • b. solutions of international economic, social, health, and related problems; and inter- 11 ational cultural and educational cooperation; and
    • c. universal respect for, and observance of, human rights and fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language, or religion.

The Resolution adopted by the General Assembly 217 A (III). Universal Declaration of Human Rights (DEC 1948), does not include the Right of Self-Determination as a "Universal Basic Human Right" with all the other codification of Basic Human Rights. As I said, that really doesn't happen until 2013.

The All-Palestine Government (Egyptian puppet APG) could only use the new Charter as a reference because the Right of Self-determination was a relatively new concept and not universally adopted and not considered a universal right with an definition.

There is a difference between an undefined Charter right and a universally accepted right. And that is why, in the Universal Declaration, the right of self-determination is not mentioned.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

No, you are conveniently misreading the intent. You are misleading the other members of the discussion group by not fully quoting the salient point of the posting.

It was not until 5 NOVEMBER 2013 GA/SHC/4085 that we hear that Self-Determination Integral to Basic Human Rights, Fundamental Freedoms, Third Committee Told as It Concludes General Discussion.​

Then it is interesting that the Palestinians invoked the right to self determination in their 1948 declaration of independence.

I HAVE THE HONOR TO INFORM YOUR EXCELLENCY THAT IN VIRTUE OF THE NATURAL RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE OF PALESTINE FOR SELF-DETERMINATION WHICH PRINCIPLE IS SUPPORTED BY THE CHARTERS OF THE LEAGUE OF NATIONS, THE UNITED NATIONS AND OTHERS AND...

A C.1 330 of 14 October 1948​

It looks like you are trying to mislead.

(COMMENT)

As I have said before, the first time self-determination is mention as a formal matter is in the 1945 UN Charter. You quoted Posting 2776, but conveniently left out the lead-in. I repost a salient point form the earlier post for clarification:

• All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development. (Derivative from the Article 1(2) and Article 55 of the 1945 Charter.)
  • To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace;
  • With a view to the creation of conditions of stability and well-being which are necessary for peaceful and friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, the United Nations shall promote:
    • a. higher standards of living, full employment, and conditions of economic and social progress and development;
    • b. solutions of international economic, social, health, and related problems; and inter- 11 ational cultural and educational cooperation; and
    • c. universal respect for, and observance of, human rights and fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language, or religion.

The Resolution adopted by the General Assembly 217 A (III). Universal Declaration of Human Rights (DEC 1948), does not include the Right of Self-Determination as a "Universal Basic Human Right" with all the other codification of Basic Human Rights. As I said, that really doesn't happen until 2013.

The All-Palestine Government (Egyptian puppet APG) could only use the new Charter as a reference because the Right of Self-determination was a relatively new concept and not universally adopted and not considered a universal right with an definition.

There is a difference between an undefined Charter right and a universally accepted right. And that is why, in the Universal Declaration, the right of self-determination is not mentioned.

Most Respectfully,
R

But you repeatedly claim that the Jews exercised their right to self determination in 1948.

 

[toastman]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Surrender: cease resistance to an enemy or opponent and submit to their authority.

OK, but didn't the LoN hold the territories in trust for the people? I see nowhere that the LoN or the Mandates took possession of any land.

(COMMENT)

First the Ottoman Empire surrendered to the Allied Powers, then Turkey renounced all it authority over the territory. You don't necessarily see one country take possession of another country --- in a surrender. And, you don't necessity see an exchange of territory. The Allied Powers, to a degree, did not take possession of Japan and Germany at the end of WWII. What you saw was the extension of Allied Authority over that territory. (Noting that the minor exception in that the USSR did partition East Germany from the remainder.)

And YES! The League of Nations via the Allied Powers, did take various territories in trust, which were inhabited by peoples not yet able to stand by themselves under the strenuous conditions of the modern world, and assumed control --- externally placed under a Civil Administration with full power of administration (executive powers) and legislation (law making powers) subject to the terms and authority of the Allied Powers. But the Allied Powers had a stipulation for a portion of Palestine which was unique form all the other Mandates: the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people.

Now the non-Jewish population had two (and only two) sets of rights that were explicitly identified for protection: "nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine" (ie Civil Rights and Religious Rights).

(QUESTION)

In 1922, what were Civil Rights and Religious Rights?

• In 1922, the Religious Rights were fairly simple: The freedom to believe in, and the ability to teaching, practice, worship, and observe the various religious theologies without undue interference. But it was not until 1948 that this right was considered a Universal Human Right (Resolution adopted by the General Assembly Resolution 217 A (III) Universal Declaration of Human Rights).

• In 1922, there was not universal understanding of what was meant by civil rights; but slowly evolving was the concept of equal protect. It was emerging as, in addition to personal liberty, rights to full legal, social, and economic equality.

But you would be hard pressed to make the case that right to sovereignty and independence is included in the civil rights of 1922. So the Question becomes, when the Allied Powers decided on creating a Jewish National Home, did the Arab Palestinians have this elusive set of rights to independence and sovereignty? I would argue that prior to the 1945 Charter, the right of self-determination was only theoretical. And prior to 1960, the definition of the right of self-determination was not clearly articulated.

Adopted by the General Assembly Resolution 1514 (XV) of 14 December 1960

• 
  
  
  • Conscious of the need for the creation of conditions of stability and well-being and peaceful and friendly relations based on respect for the principles of equal rights and self-determination of all peoples, and of universal respect for, and observance of, human rights and fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language or religion;
  • All peoples have the right to self-determination; by virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.

International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights 1966

• 
  
  
  • All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development. (Derivative from the Article 1(2) and Article 55 of the 1945 Charter.)
    • To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace;
    • With a view to the creation of conditions of stability and well-being which are necessary for peaceful and friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, the United Nations shall promote:
      • a. higher standards of living, full employment, and conditions of economic and social progress and development;
      • b. solutions of international economic, social, health, and related problems; and inter- 11 ational cultural and educational cooperation; and
      • c. universal respect for, and observance of, human rights and fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language, or religion.

It was not until 5 NOVEMBER 2013 GA/SHC/4085 that we hear that Self-Determination Integral to Basic Human Rights, Fundamental Freedoms, Third Committee Told as It Concludes General Discussion.

No, in 1922, or for that matter, in 1948, it was clear that the no right of the Arab Palestinian was trampled when the General Assemble set out to implement the Partition Plan.

Most Respectfully,
R

In 1922, what were Civil Rights and Religious Rights?​

Britain tried to remove the Palestinians from their Political Rights. That is the right to develop their own government. This ran contrary to the rights implied by The League of Nations Covenant.

Certain communities formerly belonging to the Turkish Empire have reached a stage of development where their existence as independent nations can be provisionally recognized subject to the rendering of administrative advice and assistance by a Mandatory until such time as they are able to stand alone.​

I believe that the meaning of "stand alone" to be when they created their own functioning government and the Mandate was charged with assisting them to do that.

Britain violently prevented the Palestinians from creating their own government while imposing by force laws and policies against the wishes and best interest of the people.

Since the Mandate failed to create an independent state the creation of Israel was a completely separate issue.

I have asked you to prove your claims about the British many times, yet you never have any proof. Why is that?

OK, here is some but you will not look at it.

I ask you a simple question and you respond with a video that is over an hour and a half??

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

The 1948 Declaration of Independence for the Jewish State of Israel has more than one facet.

But you repeatedly claim that the Jews exercised their right to self determination in 1948.

(COMMENT)

There are several points of concern when looking at the 1948 Jewish Bid:

• The 1919 Article 22(4) "able to stand alone" criteria in the League of Nation Covenant.
• Of course the Article 1(2) and Article 55 of the UN Charter of 1945 is but one aspect.
• The 1922 Article 4 and Article 6 Jewish National Home criteria in the Mandate for Palestine.
• The 1947 unanimous recommendations and Partition Plan by the majority of the Special Committee.
• The 1947 Steps Preparatory to Independence, A/RES/181(II).
• The 1948 coordination with the UN Palestine Commission.

The path taken by the Jewish, is considerably different than that taken by the All-Palestine Government, --- OR --- the Arab High Committee. Yes, the Jewish exercised their 'Right of Self-Determination, but there was so much more that they did in connection with their independence that the Arab Palestinians declined.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

The 1948 Declaration of Independence for the Jewish State of Israel has more than one facet.

But you repeatedly claim that the Jews exercised their right to self determination in 1948.

(COMMENT)

There are several points of concern when looking at the 1948 Jewish Bid:

• The 1919 Article 22(4) "able to stand alone" criteria in the League of Nation Covenant.
• Of course the Article 1(2) and Article 55 of the UN Charter of 1945 is but one aspect.
• The 1922 Article 4 and Article 6 Jewish National Home criteria in the Mandate for Palestine.
• The 1947 unanimous recommendations and Partition Plan by the majority of the Special Committee.
• The 1947 Steps Preparatory to Independence, A/RES/181(II).
• The 1948 coordination with the UN Palestine Commission.

The path taken by the Jewish, is considerably different than that taken by the All-Palestine Government, --- OR --- the Arab High Committee. Yes, the Jewish exercised their 'Right of Self-Determination, but there was so much more that they did in connection with their independence that the Arab Palestinians declined.

Most Respectfully,
R

The creation of Israel was purely unilateral. Neither the UN nor the Mandate had anything to do with it.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Who are the Palestinians?

Zeina Melhem

 

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore, et al,

No, you are conveniently misreading the intent. You are misleading the other members of the discussion group by not fully quoting the salient point of the posting.

It was not until 5 NOVEMBER 2013 GA/SHC/4085 that we hear that Self-Determination Integral to Basic Human Rights, Fundamental Freedoms, Third Committee Told as It Concludes General Discussion.​

Then it is interesting that the Palestinians invoked the right to self determination in their 1948 declaration of independence.

I HAVE THE HONOR TO INFORM YOUR EXCELLENCY THAT IN VIRTUE OF THE NATURAL RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE OF PALESTINE FOR SELF-DETERMINATION WHICH PRINCIPLE IS SUPPORTED BY THE CHARTERS OF THE LEAGUE OF NATIONS, THE UNITED NATIONS AND OTHERS AND...

A C.1 330 of 14 October 1948​

It looks like you are trying to mislead.

(COMMENT)

As I have said before, the first time self-determination is mention as a formal matter is in the 1945 UN Charter. You quoted Posting 2776, but conveniently left out the lead-in. I repost a salient point form the earlier post for clarification:

• All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development. (Derivative from the Article 1(2) and Article 55 of the 1945 Charter.)
  • To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace;
  • With a view to the creation of conditions of stability and well-being which are necessary for peaceful and friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, the United Nations shall promote:
    • a. higher standards of living, full employment, and conditions of economic and social progress and development;
    • b. solutions of international economic, social, health, and related problems; and inter- 11 ational cultural and educational cooperation; and
    • c. universal respect for, and observance of, human rights and fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language, or religion.

The Resolution adopted by the General Assembly 217 A (III). Universal Declaration of Human Rights (DEC 1948), does not include the Right of Self-Determination as a "Universal Basic Human Right" with all the other codification of Basic Human Rights. As I said, that really doesn't happen until 2013.

The All-Palestine Government (Egyptian puppet APG) could only use the new Charter as a reference because the Right of Self-determination was a relatively new concept and not universally adopted and not considered a universal right with an definition.

There is a difference between an undefined Charter right and a universally accepted right. And that is why, in the Universal Declaration, the right of self-determination is not mentioned.

Most Respectfully,
R

But you repeatedly claim that the Jews exercised their right to self determination in 1948.

Correct in as much as it applied at that time ...........to whit

All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development. (Derivative from the Article 1(2) and Article 55 of the 1945 Charter.)


The arab muslim by dint of allowing outside interference were no accorded the same right because of the outside interference.

 

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore, et al,

The 1948 Declaration of Independence for the Jewish State of Israel has more than one facet.

But you repeatedly claim that the Jews exercised their right to self determination in 1948.

(COMMENT)

There are several points of concern when looking at the 1948 Jewish Bid:

• The 1919 Article 22(4) "able to stand alone" criteria in the League of Nation Covenant.
• Of course the Article 1(2) and Article 55 of the UN Charter of 1945 is but one aspect.
• The 1922 Article 4 and Article 6 Jewish National Home criteria in the Mandate for Palestine.
• The 1947 unanimous recommendations and Partition Plan by the majority of the Special Committee.
• The 1947 Steps Preparatory to Independence, A/RES/181(II).
• The 1948 coordination with the UN Palestine Commission.

The path taken by the Jewish, is considerably different than that taken by the All-Palestine Government, --- OR --- the Arab High Committee. Yes, the Jewish exercised their 'Right of Self-Determination, but there was so much more that they did in connection with their independence that the Arab Palestinians declined.

Most Respectfully,
R

The creation of Israel was purely unilateral. Neither the UN nor the Mandate had anything to do with it.

Just as the creation of Syria, Jordan, Iraq and Lebanon were also unilateral and the UN and Mandate had nothing to do with them. You cant pick and choose your details just because they support part of your POV. That is the essence of free determination to make unilateral decisions. Now why haven't the arab muslim Palestinians made that second unilateral step towards free determination

 

[Phoenall]

Who are the Palestinians?

Zeina Melhem

What is she on, she rabbits away without taking a breath and looks like she has been to an amphetamine party and taken too much.

Don't you have anything from an unbiased non partisan source

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

No, you are conveniently misreading the intent. You are misleading the other members of the discussion group by not fully quoting the salient point of the posting.

It was not until 5 NOVEMBER 2013 GA/SHC/4085 that we hear that Self-Determination Integral to Basic Human Rights, Fundamental Freedoms, Third Committee Told as It Concludes General Discussion.​

Then it is interesting that the Palestinians invoked the right to self determination in their 1948 declaration of independence.

I HAVE THE HONOR TO INFORM YOUR EXCELLENCY THAT IN VIRTUE OF THE NATURAL RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE OF PALESTINE FOR SELF-DETERMINATION WHICH PRINCIPLE IS SUPPORTED BY THE CHARTERS OF THE LEAGUE OF NATIONS, THE UNITED NATIONS AND OTHERS AND...

A C.1 330 of 14 October 1948​

It looks like you are trying to mislead.

(COMMENT)

As I have said before, the first time self-determination is mention as a formal matter is in the 1945 UN Charter. You quoted Posting 2776, but conveniently left out the lead-in. I repost a salient point form the earlier post for clarification:

• All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development. (Derivative from the Article 1(2) and Article 55 of the 1945 Charter.)
  • To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace;
  • With a view to the creation of conditions of stability and well-being which are necessary for peaceful and friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, the United Nations shall promote:
    • a. higher standards of living, full employment, and conditions of economic and social progress and development;
    • b. solutions of international economic, social, health, and related problems; and inter- 11 ational cultural and educational cooperation; and
    • c. universal respect for, and observance of, human rights and fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language, or religion.

The Resolution adopted by the General Assembly 217 A (III). Universal Declaration of Human Rights (DEC 1948), does not include the Right of Self-Determination as a "Universal Basic Human Right" with all the other codification of Basic Human Rights. As I said, that really doesn't happen until 2013.

The All-Palestine Government (Egyptian puppet APG) could only use the new Charter as a reference because the Right of Self-determination was a relatively new concept and not universally adopted and not considered a universal right with an definition.

There is a difference between an undefined Charter right and a universally accepted right. And that is why, in the Universal Declaration, the right of self-determination is not mentioned.

Most Respectfully,
R

But you repeatedly claim that the Jews exercised their right to self determination in 1948.

Correct in as much as it applied at that time ...........to whit

All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development. (Derivative from the Article 1(2) and Article 55 of the 1945 Charter.)


The arab muslim by dint of allowing outside interference were no accorded the same right because of the outside interference.

The only Arab country that interfered with Palestinian self determination was Jordan and they were in cahoots with the Zionists. Jordan, however, did release Palestine from its occupation

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

The 1948 Declaration of Independence for the Jewish State of Israel has more than one facet.

But you repeatedly claim that the Jews exercised their right to self determination in 1948.

(COMMENT)

There are several points of concern when looking at the 1948 Jewish Bid:

• The 1919 Article 22(4) "able to stand alone" criteria in the League of Nation Covenant.
• Of course the Article 1(2) and Article 55 of the UN Charter of 1945 is but one aspect.
• The 1922 Article 4 and Article 6 Jewish National Home criteria in the Mandate for Palestine.
• The 1947 unanimous recommendations and Partition Plan by the majority of the Special Committee.
• The 1947 Steps Preparatory to Independence, A/RES/181(II).
• The 1948 coordination with the UN Palestine Commission.

The path taken by the Jewish, is considerably different than that taken by the All-Palestine Government, --- OR --- the Arab High Committee. Yes, the Jewish exercised their 'Right of Self-Determination, but there was so much more that they did in connection with their independence that the Arab Palestinians declined.

Most Respectfully,
R

The creation of Israel was purely unilateral. Neither the UN nor the Mandate had anything to do with it.

Just as the creation of Syria, Jordan, Iraq and Lebanon were also unilateral and the UN and Mandate had nothing to do with them. You cant pick and choose your details just because they support part of your POV. That is the essence of free determination to make unilateral decisions. Now why haven't the arab muslim Palestinians made that second unilateral step towards free determination

The UN had nothing to do with it. In all of those countries the Mandate accomplished its goal and they became independent states.

Britain flopped in Palestine.