Who are the Israelis?

[RoccoR]

RE: Who Are the Israelis?
⁜→ Coyote, rylah, et al,

According to MK Ben-Tzur, the Palestinian will a resident, not a citizen.

(COMMENT)

Yeah, there are some rough patches that need ironed-out. This runs afoul of the concept that there can be no stateless person(s).

And the concept of a separate and distinct member of society (one a citizen and one not) runs dangerously close to a pre-destined "Apartheid-like" society.

On the other hand, MK Yehuda Gluck proposes sovereignty in the form of a federation, which sounds potentially better.

I think sovereignty is a possible solution to a complex problem but its success depends very much on how it is applied, and this movement specifically has some questionable aspects.

(COMMENT)

The trick here is not to create a political entity that, like a cube of sugar in water → the cube floats and remains solid for a while. But after a time, it breaks down and you have to start over again. Destine to fail.

(COMMENT)

There are two things that many of the plans fail to address.

◈ Poverty and the necessity to support the new economy, financial institutions, water allocations and other transporation and utility systems. This may sound funny, at first, but believe me when I say that these subdivided political entities are not going to survive in isolation. Thus, every aspect of the 21st Century is going to need to be interlocking.

◈ The plans assume that the envolved populations are going to work to make there peiceof the plan a going concern. You have to ensure that the new entity is not just another incubator and growth medium for Jihadists, Insurgents, Radicalized Islamic Troublemakers, Adherents, Guerrillas and Asymmetric Fighter.​

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[rylah]

You're implying too much without fully understanding what's being said.
Identity is not a thing one can allow or not, one can steal one though,
like using my ID to buy a gun for my murder.

That's exactly the effect of Your use of the term "Palestinian identity".

No. It is you who are trying to steal it, by erasing it. By implying it can not coexist with a Jewish identity. Two people’s belonging to one land, but you need to deny the existence of one, claiming it to be stolen? Deny them their right to their identity? That is exactly what you are doing here.

I'm saying it comes from Jewish identity, not that it cannot coexist.
It does just that in the Jewish version of Palestine, and the opposite in the Arab one...which is again by their own words is a "Zionist invention".

Quiet different from what You implied, don't You think?

I didn’t imply anything. I said exactly what I meant. The Arabs did not “steal” your identity. The Palestinians created their own.

Go ask an Arab and a Jew to pronounce the first letter of the word, or its meaning in the local language,
then tell me who stole what from whom.

No one “stole” from anyone and your insistence on using the term is nothing more than an attempt to degrade.

I'm sure You already know the meaning of the word 'Palestine',
Here's another fun fact for You - 'Hamas' means corruption and robbery.
It couldn't be more in Your face, and everyone who knows Hebrew hears exactly that word.

Let's go back to my first question You've dodged.
And I'll try to rephrase if it helps, do You really honestly think that applying Israeli sovereignty, removing the military control would degrade the political status of the Arab population in Judea, degrade really?
You mean they won't be allowed to go to the Marmara?...oh wait...

We know which is the best Arab country in the world, it's the Jewish one.
No other version of Palestine needed. Gaza should be recognized as an independent state once they get rid of Hamas and become regional allies as an Emirate.
In any way You look at it if Gazans allied with Israel, they would not only improve their situation but actually become a very successful state.

 

[Shusha]

No. It is you who are trying to steal it, by erasing it. By implying it can not coexist with a Jewish identity. Two people’s belonging to one land, but you need to deny the existence of one, claiming it to be stolen? Deny them their right to their identity? That is exactly what you are doing here.

NO ONE is denying the right of the Arab Palestinians to their identity. Just like NO ONE is denying the right of Quebecers to their identity. Quebecers have a very strong French Canadian identity which is absolutely unique in the world. It is a very distinct and separate culture. And it exists just fine in Canada.

What Quebecers do not have is sovereignty. Nor do they have the political ability to fundamentally change the nature of Canada. What is being suggested for the Arab Palestinians is a similar concept. There is nothing immoral or erasing about this concept! The Arab Palestinians have been given a hundred years of opportunities to create a nation. They can't DO it. They are fundamentally unable to bring it about. So.

 

[Shusha]

No one “stole” from anyone and your insistence on using the term is nothing more than an attempt to degrade.

No. "Stole" is a perfectly apt term. So is "replacement" -- as in "replacement history".

Name the Jewish historical sites in the homeland of the Jewish people which do NOT have a replacement history sitting on top of them in the form of a narrative, a monument, a holy shrine, or a usurping of a Jewish character?

 

[rylah]

Here is one view of sovereignty, from the left. Do you agree? Disagree? Agree with some of it...disagree with other points?

How Israeli right-wing thinkers envision the annexation of the West Bank

How Israeli Right-wing Thinkers Envision the Annexation of the West Bank
From granting the Palestinians the right to vote in Jordan to expelling them creatively – how rightists propose to apply Israeli sovereignty in the Palestinian Territories

....
Katzover and Matar aren’t alone. The “sovereignty dialogue” is gaining pace in Israel, so now is the time to examine what the proponents of sovereignty mean when they talk about it. Katzover and Matar told me who they think the major players are, so I set out to discover what they’re anguishing over and which issues bother them – legally, economically and morally – and what they argue about among themselves.


Naftali Bennett: ‘Autonomy on steroids’

And then there’s a “Marshall Plan” for Judea and Samaria. If I were prime minister, I’d do it immediately.

“1. Freedom of movement between Binyamin and Gush Etzion – between Ramallah and Bethlehem. I begin by building that road.

“2. I triple the number of lanes for security checks, so that an Arab who lives in Nablus and works in Rosh Ha’ayin won’t wait three hours at the checkpoints, but five minutes. There will be dignity and respect for every person at the checkpoints.

“3. An open tourist region. In terms of tourism, the Land of Israel is one unit, so a ship will dock at Haifa and from there the tourists will travel to Nazareth, Nablus, Jerusalem, Bethlehem, Hebron, and a stamp of transit for an integrated tourist region can be organized for them to get the ball rolling.

“4. A land port in Jenin. A dock, or more than one, can be allocated to the Palestinians in Haifa. Apart from the security responsibility, the customs responsibility will be theirs. We won’t levy anything, there will be a passage from Haifa to Jenin, and the offloading will take place in Jenin.

“5. I establish joint industrial zones for Arabs and Jews, as exist now, but 10 times as many in Judea and Samaria. The Palestinian people – all told – are of a high level. Israel faces serious personnel problems in countless areas, from agriculture and construction to high-tech, and we can create a very good opportunity. Palestinians working in Israeli businesses is a very significant layer of the realistic Palestinian economy.

“6. Upgrading of infrastructure in Judea and Samaria. It’s unbelievable that the chief road artery in Judea and Samaria looks like a neglected alley. How does it serve the Israeli interest if settlers or Palestinians wait in line for an hour to enter at Hizma [near Jerusalem]? It’s intolerable for everyone.

“7. We’re proud of our agricultural technology. We talk about the Israeli [dairy] cow, which yields three or four times as much [as their peers globally], and we go to India or China to apply it. Why not in the Palestinian Authority, our neighbors?

“Those steps give a real spurt to the quality of life in Judea and Samaria – a life of dignity, [though] not full realization of the desire for a state. It’s less than a state, but it seems to me to be as good as it gets.

“I don’t rule out functional autonomy within Jordan. If Jordan decides on it and the Palestinians want to be citizens of Jordan who live in the Palestinian Authority or in Area C, that’s also possible. If they want to live in Moti Kedar’s cantons [see below], that’s also possible. They will decide. But in the end, there is one status in the territories of Israel, namely the citizens of Israel.There won’t be one territory with two statuses. Accordingly, there is no apartheid here.”


Martin Sherman: The transfer method

Martin Sherman, the founder and CEO of the Israel Institute for Strategic Studies, is probably the most extreme of all the annexationists. He advocates applying Israeli sovereignty to the whole West Bank and is also the only one who wants to annex the Gaza Strip as well. He says there is no other way to ensure Israel’s security militarily.

“Bennett’s plan sounds logical, until you look at the map, and then you see corridors everywhere, so sovereignty is meaningless,” he says. “Even if there is only a 30 percent Palestinian minority, it’s still a recipe for Lebanonization. They’re a very hostile group.”

According to Sherman, Israel needs to act vigorously to reduce the Arab presence. How? War is the most effective way, Sherman says (because "'kinetic means' are more acceptable," as he told the Ribonut correspondent). But if there’s no war - and Sherman claims he's not calling to start one - “a series of incentives is needed so they’ll leave. Positive incentives – money for families that leave and negative ones: to declare them an enemy and start to gradually reduce the provision of services and goods to the Palestinians” in both the West Bank and Gaza.

In Sherman’s view, Israel has no moral, legal or practical obligation to maintain the socioeconomic life of an enemy that’s committed to its extinction. On the contrary, its moral obligation is to bring about its collapse in order to prevent attempts to liquidate Israel and kill its citizens. Together with declaring the Palestinians a collective enemy, Israel should revoke its recognition of the PA and work to dismantle it.

“Anyone who wants to leave should take an emigration package and look for somewhere else to live,” Sherman says. “Let them go to Indonesia, or India, for example. Transfer isn’t a dirty word.”


Mordechai Kedar: The emirates method

To understand the emirates plan of Middle East affairs expert Mordechai Kedar (of Bar-Ilan University and the Begin-Sadat Center for Strategic Studies), you must hear his take on the entire region. “In the Middle East, the strongest group is the family, and then the extended family, the clan, the tribe. Most of the modern states in the Middle East – Iraq, Syria, Sudan, Jordan, Algeria, Tunisia, Morocco – were created by colonialists, and the state was forced on the groups that lived in its territory,” he says.

“The idea of the modern state wasn’t welcomed by the majority of citizens, and it didn’t supplant traditional loyalties. So there’s no ‘Syrian people,’ no ‘Iraqi people’ and no ‘Libyan people.’

“The Palestinian story is much the same. We tried to build a people on the basis of the idea of a Palestinian state, to remove the primary reference group and create a national consciousness that wouldn’t be challenged by competing forms of consciousness: the tribe, the ethnic, religious or communal group. That attempt isn’t working. Accordingly, we need to act according to the successful model of the Gulf emirates, which are based on local families.”

Here, then, are the stages of Kedar’s plan, in his words:

“1. Recognizing the Gaza Strip as a state, because it possesses all of a state’s attributes. Hamas has ruled in Gaza for 11 years, and its government takes the right attitude toward the local families.

“2. Application of Israeli sovereignty to all of Judea and Samaria.

“3. Dismantlement of the Palestinian Authority.

“4. Establishment of seven emirates – city-states – in the West Bank: in Arab Hebron and in Jericho, Ramallah, Qalqilyah, Tul Karm, Nablus and Jenin. They would be independent emirates based on the local families. The emirates’ inhabitants will be their citizens – citizens of the Emirate of Hebron, citizens of the Emirate of Nablus and so on.

“5. The rural areas will remain under Israeli sovereignty.

“6. Israel should offer Israeli citizenship to the residents of the rural villages, who make up about 10 percent of the Arab population in the West Bank and don’t pose a demographic threat. They will live in Israel like the Arabs of the Galilee and the Little Triangle Area in central Israel, which is roughly bounded by the Arab towns of Baka al-Garbiyeh, Taibeh and Tira.

Knew this one would come, read it before our conversation just to see how we will be attacked.
So predictable.

What is wrong with it? Some interesting ideas. I actually agree with some. I don’t understand you. Any criticism and you yell about demonizing Israel yet you demonize the Palestinians non stop. I quote from some of the actual people behind the sovereignty movement and you seem to think that is unfair. You deny the Palestinians their identity as if it can only be had at the expense of a Jewish identity. Well bullshit on all of that.

Did You really honestly "quote" from them, or from sources with a clear opposing agenda?
It's more important to me than it would ever be to You, so please whenever You're ready to have an honest discourse I'll respect that.

 

[Shusha]

Israel is not unique for not expelling all it’s Arabs

How not? Normally with national liberation movements and conflicts of this type between two distinct cultures and ethnicities (and especially at the time period) there is a population exchange as a direct result of war. Do you have an example of this NOT occurring?

and the Jews had a national identity before they had a nation.

They also had the ability to form a nation. Your point is? The Arab Palestinians have had an identity for some time. But they do not seem to have the will to form a nation. Israel managed it in about 26 years.

 

[rylah]

No. It is you who are trying to steal it, by erasing it. By implying it can not coexist with a Jewish identity. Two people’s belonging to one land, but you need to deny the existence of one, claiming it to be stolen? Deny them their right to their identity? That is exactly what you are doing here.

NO ONE is denying the right of the Arab Palestinians to their identity. Just like NO ONE is denying the right of Quebecers to their identity. Quebecers have a very strong French Canadian identity which is absolutely unique in the world. It is a very distinct and separate culture. And it exists just fine in Canada.

What Quebecers do not have is sovereignty. Nor do they have the political ability to fundamentally change the nature of Canada. What is being suggested for the Arab Palestinians is a similar concept. There is nothing immoral or erasing about this concept! The Arab Palestinians have been given a hundred years of opportunities to create a nation. They can't DO it. They are fundamentally unable to bring it about. So.

You bring a really good point
Isn't Canada also one of the few full democracies?
Very insightful

 

[Coyote]

No. It is you who are trying to steal it, by erasing it. By implying it can not coexist with a Jewish identity. Two people’s belonging to one land, but you need to deny the existence of one, claiming it to be stolen? Deny them their right to their identity? That is exactly what you are doing here.

I'm saying it comes from Jewish identity, not that it cannot coexist.
It does just that in the Jewish version of Palestine, and the opposite in the Arab one...which is again by their own words is a "Zionist invention".

Quiet different from what You implied, don't You think?

I didn’t imply anything. I said exactly what I meant. The Arabs did not “steal” your identity. The Palestinians created their own.

Go ask an Arab and a Jew to pronounce the first letter of the word, or its meaning in the local language,
then tell me who stole what from whom.

No one “stole” from anyone and your insistence on using the term is nothing more than an attempt to degrade.

I'm sure You already know the meaning of the word 'Palestine',
Here's another fun fact for You - 'Hamas' means corruption and robbery.
It couldn't be more in Your face, and everyone who knows Hebrew hears exactly that word.

Let's go back to my first question You've dodged.
And I'll try to rephrase if it helps, do You really honestly think that applying Israeli sovereignty, removing the military control would degrade the political status of the Arab population in Judea, degrade really?
You mean they won't be allowed to go to the Marmara?...oh wait...

We know which is the best Arab country in the world, it's the Jewish one.
No other version of Palestine needed. Gaza should be recognized as an independent state once they get rid of Hamas and become regional allies as an Emirate.
In any way You look at it if Gazans allied with Israel, they would not only improve their situation but actually become a very successful state.

To answer your rephrased question, yes it has that possibility depending how it is done. I think Rocco outlined the pitfalls quite well in the post above yours.

 

[Coyote]

No one “stole” from anyone and your insistence on using the term is nothing more than an attempt to degrade.

No. "Stole" is a perfectly apt term. So is "replacement" -- as in "replacement history".

Name the Jewish historical sites in the homeland of the Jewish people which do NOT have a replacement history sitting on top of them in the form of a narrative, a monument, a holy shrine, or a usurping of a Jewish character?

I disagree. The Palestinians are themselves a people. They did not steal that identity and claiming it is stolen is little more than denying them their identity.

 

[Coyote]

Here is one view of sovereignty, from the left. Do you agree? Disagree? Agree with some of it...disagree with other points?

How Israeli right-wing thinkers envision the annexation of the West Bank

How Israeli Right-wing Thinkers Envision the Annexation of the West Bank
From granting the Palestinians the right to vote in Jordan to expelling them creatively – how rightists propose to apply Israeli sovereignty in the Palestinian Territories

....
Katzover and Matar aren’t alone. The “sovereignty dialogue” is gaining pace in Israel, so now is the time to examine what the proponents of sovereignty mean when they talk about it. Katzover and Matar told me who they think the major players are, so I set out to discover what they’re anguishing over and which issues bother them – legally, economically and morally – and what they argue about among themselves.


Naftali Bennett: ‘Autonomy on steroids’

And then there’s a “Marshall Plan” for Judea and Samaria. If I were prime minister, I’d do it immediately.

“1. Freedom of movement between Binyamin and Gush Etzion – between Ramallah and Bethlehem. I begin by building that road.

“2. I triple the number of lanes for security checks, so that an Arab who lives in Nablus and works in Rosh Ha’ayin won’t wait three hours at the checkpoints, but five minutes. There will be dignity and respect for every person at the checkpoints.

“3. An open tourist region. In terms of tourism, the Land of Israel is one unit, so a ship will dock at Haifa and from there the tourists will travel to Nazareth, Nablus, Jerusalem, Bethlehem, Hebron, and a stamp of transit for an integrated tourist region can be organized for them to get the ball rolling.

“4. A land port in Jenin. A dock, or more than one, can be allocated to the Palestinians in Haifa. Apart from the security responsibility, the customs responsibility will be theirs. We won’t levy anything, there will be a passage from Haifa to Jenin, and the offloading will take place in Jenin.

“5. I establish joint industrial zones for Arabs and Jews, as exist now, but 10 times as many in Judea and Samaria. The Palestinian people – all told – are of a high level. Israel faces serious personnel problems in countless areas, from agriculture and construction to high-tech, and we can create a very good opportunity. Palestinians working in Israeli businesses is a very significant layer of the realistic Palestinian economy.

“6. Upgrading of infrastructure in Judea and Samaria. It’s unbelievable that the chief road artery in Judea and Samaria looks like a neglected alley. How does it serve the Israeli interest if settlers or Palestinians wait in line for an hour to enter at Hizma [near Jerusalem]? It’s intolerable for everyone.

“7. We’re proud of our agricultural technology. We talk about the Israeli [dairy] cow, which yields three or four times as much [as their peers globally], and we go to India or China to apply it. Why not in the Palestinian Authority, our neighbors?

“Those steps give a real spurt to the quality of life in Judea and Samaria – a life of dignity, [though] not full realization of the desire for a state. It’s less than a state, but it seems to me to be as good as it gets.

“I don’t rule out functional autonomy within Jordan. If Jordan decides on it and the Palestinians want to be citizens of Jordan who live in the Palestinian Authority or in Area C, that’s also possible. If they want to live in Moti Kedar’s cantons [see below], that’s also possible. They will decide. But in the end, there is one status in the territories of Israel, namely the citizens of Israel.There won’t be one territory with two statuses. Accordingly, there is no apartheid here.”


Martin Sherman: The transfer method

Martin Sherman, the founder and CEO of the Israel Institute for Strategic Studies, is probably the most extreme of all the annexationists. He advocates applying Israeli sovereignty to the whole West Bank and is also the only one who wants to annex the Gaza Strip as well. He says there is no other way to ensure Israel’s security militarily.

“Bennett’s plan sounds logical, until you look at the map, and then you see corridors everywhere, so sovereignty is meaningless,” he says. “Even if there is only a 30 percent Palestinian minority, it’s still a recipe for Lebanonization. They’re a very hostile group.”

According to Sherman, Israel needs to act vigorously to reduce the Arab presence. How? War is the most effective way, Sherman says (because "'kinetic means' are more acceptable," as he told the Ribonut correspondent). But if there’s no war - and Sherman claims he's not calling to start one - “a series of incentives is needed so they’ll leave. Positive incentives – money for families that leave and negative ones: to declare them an enemy and start to gradually reduce the provision of services and goods to the Palestinians” in both the West Bank and Gaza.

In Sherman’s view, Israel has no moral, legal or practical obligation to maintain the socioeconomic life of an enemy that’s committed to its extinction. On the contrary, its moral obligation is to bring about its collapse in order to prevent attempts to liquidate Israel and kill its citizens. Together with declaring the Palestinians a collective enemy, Israel should revoke its recognition of the PA and work to dismantle it.

“Anyone who wants to leave should take an emigration package and look for somewhere else to live,” Sherman says. “Let them go to Indonesia, or India, for example. Transfer isn’t a dirty word.”


Mordechai Kedar: The emirates method

To understand the emirates plan of Middle East affairs expert Mordechai Kedar (of Bar-Ilan University and the Begin-Sadat Center for Strategic Studies), you must hear his take on the entire region. “In the Middle East, the strongest group is the family, and then the extended family, the clan, the tribe. Most of the modern states in the Middle East – Iraq, Syria, Sudan, Jordan, Algeria, Tunisia, Morocco – were created by colonialists, and the state was forced on the groups that lived in its territory,” he says.

“The idea of the modern state wasn’t welcomed by the majority of citizens, and it didn’t supplant traditional loyalties. So there’s no ‘Syrian people,’ no ‘Iraqi people’ and no ‘Libyan people.’

“The Palestinian story is much the same. We tried to build a people on the basis of the idea of a Palestinian state, to remove the primary reference group and create a national consciousness that wouldn’t be challenged by competing forms of consciousness: the tribe, the ethnic, religious or communal group. That attempt isn’t working. Accordingly, we need to act according to the successful model of the Gulf emirates, which are based on local families.”

Here, then, are the stages of Kedar’s plan, in his words:

“1. Recognizing the Gaza Strip as a state, because it possesses all of a state’s attributes. Hamas has ruled in Gaza for 11 years, and its government takes the right attitude toward the local families.

“2. Application of Israeli sovereignty to all of Judea and Samaria.

“3. Dismantlement of the Palestinian Authority.

“4. Establishment of seven emirates – city-states – in the West Bank: in Arab Hebron and in Jericho, Ramallah, Qalqilyah, Tul Karm, Nablus and Jenin. They would be independent emirates based on the local families. The emirates’ inhabitants will be their citizens – citizens of the Emirate of Hebron, citizens of the Emirate of Nablus and so on.

“5. The rural areas will remain under Israeli sovereignty.

“6. Israel should offer Israeli citizenship to the residents of the rural villages, who make up about 10 percent of the Arab population in the West Bank and don’t pose a demographic threat. They will live in Israel like the Arabs of the Galilee and the Little Triangle Area in central Israel, which is roughly bounded by the Arab towns of Baka al-Garbiyeh, Taibeh and Tira.

Knew this one would come, read it before our conversation just to see how we will be attacked.
So predictable.

What is wrong with it? Some interesting ideas. I actually agree with some. I don’t understand you. Any criticism and you yell about demonizing Israel yet you demonize the Palestinians non stop. I quote from some of the actual people behind the sovereignty movement and you seem to think that is unfair. You deny the Palestinians their identity as if it can only be had at the expense of a Jewish identity. Well bullshit on all of that.

Did You really honestly "quote" from them, or from sources with a clear opposing agenda?
It's more important to me than it would ever be to You, so please whenever You're ready to have an honest discourse I'll respect that.

You can choose to believe what you wish. I googled the terms and that is what came up.

I wonder if you choose your own sources with a bias in mind when you post your demonizing Palestinian stuff?

Honest discussion is a two way street.

Good day.

 

[Coyote]

Israel is not unique for not expelling all it’s Arabs

How not? Normally with national liberation movements and conflicts of this type between two distinct cultures and ethnicities (and especially at the time period) there is a population exchange as a direct result of war. Do you have an example of this NOT occurring?

There are plenty of examples where the entire minority population was not expelled as a result of conflict. India. The Balkans.
The US when it took territory from Mexico. The UK. So no, it is not unique

and the Jews had a national identity before they had a nation.

They also had the ability to form a nation. Your point is? The Arab Palestinians have had an identity for some time. But they do not seem to have the will to form a nation. Israel managed it in about 26 years.

I do not disagree with you on the ability to form a nation.

 

[Shusha]

No one “stole” from anyone and your insistence on using the term is nothing more than an attempt to degrade.

No. "Stole" is a perfectly apt term. So is "replacement" -- as in "replacement history".

Name the Jewish historical sites in the homeland of the Jewish people which do NOT have a replacement history sitting on top of them in the form of a narrative, a monument, a holy shrine, or a usurping of a Jewish character?

I disagree. The Palestinians are themselves a people. They did not steal that identity and claiming it is stolen is little more than denying them their identity.

Arab Palestinians did not steal their identity. They created an identity. But they ARE actively and deliberately erasing and replacing Jewish identity. To the point that people call JC a Palestinian, which is absurd. And discuss ancient Palestine which is also absurd.

NO ONE is erasing or denying Arab Palestinian identity. And acknowledging Jewish identity and history does not erase the Arab Palestinians.

 

[Coyote]

They also talk about the idea that if there must be a Palestinian state, put it in the Sinai, a region that is not particularly hospitable, for a start: Sinai Peninsula - New World Encyclopedia.


That is only IF there must be a state.

They call for dividing the West Bank into 12 districts

According to my understanding of what Rabbi Eliyahu

According to MK Ben-Tzur, the Palestinian will a resident, not a citizen.

On the other hand, MK Yehuda Gluck proposes sovereignty in the form of a federation, which sounds potentially better.

I think sovereignty is a possible solution to a complex problem but it’s success depends very much on how it is applied, and this movement specifically has some questionable aspects. Apparently pointing that out, according to rylah is demonizing Israel.

Finally SPECIFICS. Let's go into real practical discussion.

The Sinai idea is a good start, for a good opening joke.
That's a logical fallacy, the whole point is we apply Israeli sovereignty over Judea, not going beyond our borders to create another Arab state. You just don't get the humor behind.

The 12 districts is an idea that has no support because it again misses the whole point and practicality.
I think I've already made it clear and simple - people are fed up with drawing lines in Israel.
Removing the security barrier is also one of the main issues on the table, so no that's again a logical inconsistency.

Rabbi Elyahu father or son? If You want to go into the definitions of Jewish law, I WILL demand the original source and I WILL be specific about each word and its legal standing.

According to MK Tzur, resident can mean either a translation of a term in Jewish law in conversation with the orthodox community, or as it applies in common law? Because one means from a Jewish legal point that the Rabbinate won't be forced to view non-Jews as Jews and apply their rulings on them or deal with any of their issues in the Rabbinic courts. The other means that for a subject of the PA to receive Israeli citizenship once sovereignty is applied, will have to go through a process of application starting from a resident status.
This also means that subjects of other states who happen to live with the Arab community in Judea might as well choose to keep it.

Yehuda Glick didn't pass the vote, so was the reception of that crazy idea. Though I find it funny how You oppose the 12 districts idea while support the canton idea of Mr. Glick.
How many times do I have to say it more - the young generation is fed up with drawing new lines in Israel.

Oh wait a sec. I just arrived at simple conclusion - You actually support a canton idea, and indirectly the 12 regions idea, because they're the same, only difference is the number of divisions.

Eliyahu was the Eliyahu quoted in the linked I drew my comments from.

In terms of twelve districts vs the cantons...you fail to see the difference in how they would be apportioned? You pretend it is the same it except for number of areas, is it?

First of all they are Rabbis, one of them was a sage of the generation, so please some respect could be healthy. You have no dog in this fight, so respect the boundaries if You want to have any further discussion, criticize all You want but in Israel we refer to religious leaders and kings, no matter how hostile, by their title before the name. So did (Rishon LeTzion) Rabbi Mordechai Elyahu ZTZV"KL when he addressed Iran leader Ayatollah Khamenei in a direct official letter from Israel.
I looked several times, You must be looking at a different source.

Maybe you should quit assuming disrespect is intended. I do not know the intricacies of the forms of address you are demanding nor would I expect others to know such about my own faith. You seem to assume everything I say is a slight, an insult, or demonizing. I shorten because I am typing on a phone and that media alone makes it more difficult.

In post 1363, I provided this link: https://womeningreen.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/ribonut9english.

On page 8, are statements by him. He is referred to as Rav. Shmuel Eliahu and as Rabbi Shmuel Eliyahu. In my initial post, I referred to him as "Rabbi" then you started picking at the name, indicating you had not even made the effort to read the link.

And yes I see both cantons and regions as essentially the same ideas,it's a small place, 2 geographical regions Judea Samaria. As I said earlier, all goes back to Dr. Kedar's Emirates solution. But I don't want those divisions, I want the recognized Sheikhs of the main tribes to establish their representative in a unified body with the Rabbinate, I want constant open channel under Israeli protection with the Muftis as well, I want people like Rabbi Elyahu ZTZV"KL to sit with recognized chief Muslim leaders and to find that thing, we all looking for but afraid to utter the word without ridicule, as an example for everyone else . But how can I discuss such issues with people who have very shallow understanding of theology and modern interreligious discourse and its effect on cu culture?

I do not make a claim to any deep understanding of theology and I also LIKE what you want but I don't think you listen because you are too busy attacking when someone disagrees. Cantons and districts could be the same. Yet, the plan outlined by one group for division into 12 districts states specifically they will be divided in such a way as none will have an Arab majority. The difference is not that of districts or cantons, but of a specific plan (for districts) vs a specific plan (for cantons) and you are quibbling over words.

Some go so far in denial as to declare the conflict has nothing to do with religion at all.
But one thing for sure there is a lot of Jewish-Christian open debates going on a regular basis everywhere freedom of expression and intellectual rigor are appreciated. In Israel Rabbis invite Pastors to debates and vise versa, I have the freedom and real comfort to discuss religion with anyone "on the street" in Israel, You know to real human extent, go to people who don't have a bad look in the eye seeing my kippa and beard. Jewish culture is all about open debate, but I don't see any Jewish-Muslim open debates, Muslims willingly debate Christians but not Jews, not in any open representative manner, very rarely on the streets of Europe, and usually on a very shallow level.

I'm just saying, there're a lot of potential agreements in many hot topics that only seem as explosive. There's no other like Israel where this debate is more relevant and worthy of taking place.

Look Rylah, I respect you. I respect your point of view because it is uniquely rooted in Israel and in religion, and as I think you said, you are an Iraqi Jew? That gives you perspectives that I will never have. I don't know what the religious climate is in the streets of Israel. I do know what it is in the US. Everyone has a different perspective and that doesn't mean they are right or wrong. My impressions of Jewish Israeli culture come primarily from the scientists my mother worked with in collarborative studies involving heart disease and nutrition between NIH and Israel. They visited for lengthy periods (and vice versa) and when they were here, I got to meet them. They ranged from a couple, both high level scientists, who survived the concentration camps to a young woman who was born in Israel.

And lastly, I agree. I see interfaith collaberation and dialogue going on here in the US, so why not elsewhere? In the end, people want the same things - a good economy, a job, the ability to raise a family and educate their children. Broad economic security fuels peace.

When I look at "sovereignity movements" I see potential - both good, and problematic - depending on how it is applied. You made broad and general statements. I googled it, and what I looked at was among the first that came up. You poo poo'd the Haaretz article. Why? Because it is Hararetz? Leftwing? I thought some of the sovereignty ideas had merit. Some did not. A federation? Caliphates?

I think Israel will end up annexing, I think it has to because there is no national unity or leadership among the Palestinians of the West Bank. They have not been able to form a state and that is not solely the fault of Israel (though I also think the rightwing of Israel never planned on giving up any of the territory). So it will happen. But there are better and worse ways to do it. I hope they choose for the long term better for all the population, that they invest in infrastructure for all, and economic prosperity.

 

[Coyote]

No one “stole” from anyone and your insistence on using the term is nothing more than an attempt to degrade.

No. "Stole" is a perfectly apt term. So is "replacement" -- as in "replacement history".

Name the Jewish historical sites in the homeland of the Jewish people which do NOT have a replacement history sitting on top of them in the form of a narrative, a monument, a holy shrine, or a usurping of a Jewish character?

I disagree. The Palestinians are themselves a people. They did not steal that identity and claiming it is stolen is little more than denying them their identity.

Arab Palestinians did not steal their identity. They created an identity. But they ARE actively and deliberately erasing and replacing Jewish identity. To the point that people call JC a Palestinian, which is absurd. And discuss ancient Palestine which is also absurd.

NO ONE is erasing or denying Arab Palestinian identity. And acknowledging Jewish identity and history does not erase the Arab Palestinians.

Yes. They are. They do so everytime they say they are just moslem Arabs. And yes - I agree, acknowledging Jewish identity and history does not eras the Arab Palestinians. Just as acknowledging Palestinian identity does not erase the Jewish identity.

 

[Shusha]

Israel is not unique for not expelling all it’s Arabs

How not? Normally with national liberation movements and conflicts of this type between two distinct cultures and ethnicities (and especially at the time period) there is a population exchange as a direct result of war. Do you have an example of this NOT occurring?

There are plenty of examples where the entire minority population was not expelled as a result of conflict. India. The Balkans.

India had only a 10% minority Muslim population after the partition. Of the former Yugoslavian States most have only small numbers of minority populations 10-15%.

The exception seems to be Bosnia which has a significant Serbian population (30%).

Israel will be more like 50%.

 

[rylah]

I'm saying it comes from Jewish identity, not that it cannot coexist.
It does just that in the Jewish version of Palestine, and the opposite in the Arab one...which is again by their own words is a "Zionist invention".

Quiet different from what You implied, don't You think?

I didn’t imply anything. I said exactly what I meant. The Arabs did not “steal” your identity. The Palestinians created their own.

Go ask an Arab and a Jew to pronounce the first letter of the word, or its meaning in the local language,
then tell me who stole what from whom.

No one “stole” from anyone and your insistence on using the term is nothing more than an attempt to degrade.

I'm sure You already know the meaning of the word 'Palestine',
Here's another fun fact for You - 'Hamas' means corruption and robbery.
It couldn't be more in Your face, and everyone who knows Hebrew hears exactly that word.

Let's go back to my first question You've dodged.
And I'll try to rephrase if it helps, do You really honestly think that applying Israeli sovereignty, removing the military control would degrade the political status of the Arab population in Judea, degrade really?
You mean they won't be allowed to go to the Marmara?...oh wait...

We know which is the best Arab country in the world, it's the Jewish one.
No other version of Palestine needed. Gaza should be recognized as an independent state once they get rid of Hamas and become regional allies as an Emirate.
In any way You look at it if Gazans allied with Israel, they would not only improve their situation but actually become a very successful state.

To answer your rephrased question, yes it has that possibility depending how it is done. I think Rocco outlined the pitfalls quite well in the post above yours.

I disagree with our friend Roccor on that point.
All it needs is clarification.
There's no precedent in modern times for a Jewish state, people worldwide see Muslim and Christian states, as well as Jews themselves and project foreign concepts into Jewish terms.

All I'm asking, and this is not without respect to all Abrahamic religions is not to project Christianity and Islam into our original and indigenous terms of self determination.
It's an interesting topic, at least to me, and I'll explain in following posts. I think the Jewish state is an exemplary case of tolerance that deserved our solid right to allowed further determine our sovereignty as a "sacred trust of the civilization" literally speaking. We have sacrificed so much of our own cultural and religious rights to make sure that other minorities feel welcome in our society, with all the complex context, that we at least deserve to be heard. And this is exactly what's happening in the region, You see both liberals and conservatives in the Muslim world use the same lexicon, it's not only about strategic alliance, they even talk about it openly now in Arabic Al-Jazeerah. Wars are wars, but reformation and progress of the region comes through Israel, it's the tiniest country that questions every big liberal and conservative aspect as its been at its frozen status quo in the region for centuries.

And YES I'm saying Israel is the best Arab country in the middle east, it just happens to be a Jewish state, and nothing bad about it, quiet the opposite, challenges many old prejudice not only about Jews.
So if You want Arab rule let's keep the 99.9% of the region under it, and keep Judea and Israel as a Jewish state exactly for the sake of both the Arab and Jewish communities and some basic liberal values.

 

[rylah]

Israel is not unique for not expelling all it’s Arabs

How not? Normally with national liberation movements and conflicts of this type between two distinct cultures and ethnicities (and especially at the time period) there is a population exchange as a direct result of war. Do you have an example of this NOT occurring?

There are plenty of examples where the entire minority population was not expelled as a result of conflict. India. The Balkans.

India had only a 10% minority Muslim population after the partition. Of the former Yugoslavian States most have only small numbers of minority populations 10-15%.

The exception seems to be Bosnia which has a significant Serbian population (30%).

Israel will be more like 50%.

Did You include Gaza in that estimate?

 

[rylah]

No one “stole” from anyone and your insistence on using the term is nothing more than an attempt to degrade.

No. "Stole" is a perfectly apt term. So is "replacement" -- as in "replacement history".

Name the Jewish historical sites in the homeland of the Jewish people which do NOT have a replacement history sitting on top of them in the form of a narrative, a monument, a holy shrine, or a usurping of a Jewish character?

I disagree. The Palestinians are themselves a people. They did not steal that identity and claiming it is stolen is little more than denying them their identity.

Arab Palestinians did not steal their identity. They created an identity. But they ARE actively and deliberately erasing and replacing Jewish identity. To the point that people call JC a Palestinian, which is absurd. And discuss ancient Palestine which is also absurd.

NO ONE is erasing or denying Arab Palestinian identity. And acknowledging Jewish identity and history does not erase the Arab Palestinians.

Yes. They are. They do so everytime they say they are just moslem Arabs. And yes - I agree, acknowledging Jewish identity and history does not eras the Arab Palestinians. Just as acknowledging Palestinian identity does not erase the Jewish identity.

There stands a fact in the middle of all these arguments, backed in international law which recognizes the indigenous status of the Jewish nation to re-constitute their historic homeland.
That is the Palestinian identity everyone is trying to fight the one that does more than anyone else to tolerate others, the Palestinian identity on the other side of the river is "now Jews allowed", on 78% of that land and no one seems to raise a brow.

 

[Shusha]

... the Palestinian identity on the other side of the river is "now Jews allowed", on 78% of that land and no one seems to raise a brow.

Exactly. Where are the people crying about the loss of Jewish identity (nevermind actual Jews) in Gaza, in Judea and Samaria, in Jordan and Syria and Iraq and Iran and Tunisia and Morocco, etc, etc etc?

Who is fighting for the Jewish identity there?

 

[rylah]

Here is one view of sovereignty, from the left. Do you agree? Disagree? Agree with some of it...disagree with other points?

How Israeli right-wing thinkers envision the annexation of the West Bank

How Israeli Right-wing Thinkers Envision the Annexation of the West Bank
From granting the Palestinians the right to vote in Jordan to expelling them creatively – how rightists propose to apply Israeli sovereignty in the Palestinian Territories

....
Katzover and Matar aren’t alone. The “sovereignty dialogue” is gaining pace in Israel, so now is the time to examine what the proponents of sovereignty mean when they talk about it. Katzover and Matar told me who they think the major players are, so I set out to discover what they’re anguishing over and which issues bother them – legally, economically and morally – and what they argue about among themselves.


Naftali Bennett: ‘Autonomy on steroids’

And then there’s a “Marshall Plan” for Judea and Samaria. If I were prime minister, I’d do it immediately.

“1. Freedom of movement between Binyamin and Gush Etzion – between Ramallah and Bethlehem. I begin by building that road.

“2. I triple the number of lanes for security checks, so that an Arab who lives in Nablus and works in Rosh Ha’ayin won’t wait three hours at the checkpoints, but five minutes. There will be dignity and respect for every person at the checkpoints.

“3. An open tourist region. In terms of tourism, the Land of Israel is one unit, so a ship will dock at Haifa and from there the tourists will travel to Nazareth, Nablus, Jerusalem, Bethlehem, Hebron, and a stamp of transit for an integrated tourist region can be organized for them to get the ball rolling.

“4. A land port in Jenin. A dock, or more than one, can be allocated to the Palestinians in Haifa. Apart from the security responsibility, the customs responsibility will be theirs. We won’t levy anything, there will be a passage from Haifa to Jenin, and the offloading will take place in Jenin.

“5. I establish joint industrial zones for Arabs and Jews, as exist now, but 10 times as many in Judea and Samaria. The Palestinian people – all told – are of a high level. Israel faces serious personnel problems in countless areas, from agriculture and construction to high-tech, and we can create a very good opportunity. Palestinians working in Israeli businesses is a very significant layer of the realistic Palestinian economy.

“6. Upgrading of infrastructure in Judea and Samaria. It’s unbelievable that the chief road artery in Judea and Samaria looks like a neglected alley. How does it serve the Israeli interest if settlers or Palestinians wait in line for an hour to enter at Hizma [near Jerusalem]? It’s intolerable for everyone.

“7. We’re proud of our agricultural technology. We talk about the Israeli [dairy] cow, which yields three or four times as much [as their peers globally], and we go to India or China to apply it. Why not in the Palestinian Authority, our neighbors?

“Those steps give a real spurt to the quality of life in Judea and Samaria – a life of dignity, [though] not full realization of the desire for a state. It’s less than a state, but it seems to me to be as good as it gets.

“I don’t rule out functional autonomy within Jordan. If Jordan decides on it and the Palestinians want to be citizens of Jordan who live in the Palestinian Authority or in Area C, that’s also possible. If they want to live in Moti Kedar’s cantons [see below], that’s also possible. They will decide. But in the end, there is one status in the territories of Israel, namely the citizens of Israel.There won’t be one territory with two statuses. Accordingly, there is no apartheid here.”


Martin Sherman: The transfer method

Martin Sherman, the founder and CEO of the Israel Institute for Strategic Studies, is probably the most extreme of all the annexationists. He advocates applying Israeli sovereignty to the whole West Bank and is also the only one who wants to annex the Gaza Strip as well. He says there is no other way to ensure Israel’s security militarily.

“Bennett’s plan sounds logical, until you look at the map, and then you see corridors everywhere, so sovereignty is meaningless,” he says. “Even if there is only a 30 percent Palestinian minority, it’s still a recipe for Lebanonization. They’re a very hostile group.”

According to Sherman, Israel needs to act vigorously to reduce the Arab presence. How? War is the most effective way, Sherman says (because "'kinetic means' are more acceptable," as he told the Ribonut correspondent). But if there’s no war - and Sherman claims he's not calling to start one - “a series of incentives is needed so they’ll leave. Positive incentives – money for families that leave and negative ones: to declare them an enemy and start to gradually reduce the provision of services and goods to the Palestinians” in both the West Bank and Gaza.

In Sherman’s view, Israel has no moral, legal or practical obligation to maintain the socioeconomic life of an enemy that’s committed to its extinction. On the contrary, its moral obligation is to bring about its collapse in order to prevent attempts to liquidate Israel and kill its citizens. Together with declaring the Palestinians a collective enemy, Israel should revoke its recognition of the PA and work to dismantle it.

“Anyone who wants to leave should take an emigration package and look for somewhere else to live,” Sherman says. “Let them go to Indonesia, or India, for example. Transfer isn’t a dirty word.”


Mordechai Kedar: The emirates method

To understand the emirates plan of Middle East affairs expert Mordechai Kedar (of Bar-Ilan University and the Begin-Sadat Center for Strategic Studies), you must hear his take on the entire region. “In the Middle East, the strongest group is the family, and then the extended family, the clan, the tribe. Most of the modern states in the Middle East – Iraq, Syria, Sudan, Jordan, Algeria, Tunisia, Morocco – were created by colonialists, and the state was forced on the groups that lived in its territory,” he says.

“The idea of the modern state wasn’t welcomed by the majority of citizens, and it didn’t supplant traditional loyalties. So there’s no ‘Syrian people,’ no ‘Iraqi people’ and no ‘Libyan people.’

“The Palestinian story is much the same. We tried to build a people on the basis of the idea of a Palestinian state, to remove the primary reference group and create a national consciousness that wouldn’t be challenged by competing forms of consciousness: the tribe, the ethnic, religious or communal group. That attempt isn’t working. Accordingly, we need to act according to the successful model of the Gulf emirates, which are based on local families.”

Here, then, are the stages of Kedar’s plan, in his words:

“1. Recognizing the Gaza Strip as a state, because it possesses all of a state’s attributes. Hamas has ruled in Gaza for 11 years, and its government takes the right attitude toward the local families.

“2. Application of Israeli sovereignty to all of Judea and Samaria.

“3. Dismantlement of the Palestinian Authority.

“4. Establishment of seven emirates – city-states – in the West Bank: in Arab Hebron and in Jericho, Ramallah, Qalqilyah, Tul Karm, Nablus and Jenin. They would be independent emirates based on the local families. The emirates’ inhabitants will be their citizens – citizens of the Emirate of Hebron, citizens of the Emirate of Nablus and so on.

“5. The rural areas will remain under Israeli sovereignty.

“6. Israel should offer Israeli citizenship to the residents of the rural villages, who make up about 10 percent of the Arab population in the West Bank and don’t pose a demographic threat. They will live in Israel like the Arabs of the Galilee and the Little Triangle Area in central Israel, which is roughly bounded by the Arab towns of Baka al-Garbiyeh, Taibeh and Tira.

Knew this one would come, read it before our conversation just to see how we will be attacked.
So predictable.

What is wrong with it? Some interesting ideas. I actually agree with some. I don’t understand you. Any criticism and you yell about demonizing Israel yet you demonize the Palestinians non stop. I quote from some of the actual people behind the sovereignty movement and you seem to think that is unfair. You deny the Palestinians their identity as if it can only be had at the expense of a Jewish identity. Well bullshit on all of that.

Did You really honestly "quote" from them, or from sources with a clear opposing agenda?
It's more important to me than it would ever be to You, so please whenever You're ready to have an honest discourse I'll respect that.

You can choose to believe what you wish. I googled the terms and that is what came up.

I wonder if you choose your own sources with a bias in mind when you post your demonizing Palestinian stuff?

Honest discussion is a two way street.

Good day.

Good day to You too.
You want to talk about honesty and sources?
Yesterday I already wrote a response to what You said about Rabbi Elyahu, it was obvious You read it in some other place other than the original, and You didn't know to tell me his exact so we could be specific. None of Your links as far as I looked mentioned what You wrote. As I said I already wrote a response to that conversation basing on my mere guess of what might have been the specifics of the issue, but deleted it because it was too much discussion on term of Jewish law and how it applies to the practice of common law in western democracies. Believe it or not right after deleting it I found the original source, and it was interesting that, as far as see it I expressed the issue very close to what Rabbi Shmuel Elyahu said regarding the Arab communities in Judea:

"There's a concept of Ger toshav, who is someone that accepts upon himself seven Noahide Laws and the sovereignty of the People of Israel in its Land. In such a situation, it is possible to allow him, under certain conditions, to live here, and of course, he also has rights. The conditions for this are detailed in the Seven Noahide Laws, which means he should accept upon himself to live the normal life of normal person, who does not steal agricultural equipment or land and does not support the phenomenon of theft, does not commit murder for reasons family honor or other reasons, does not attack a bus on the street because it did not allow him to pass. These are normal conditions that are required from anyone who lives here as a visitor in the Jewish state. He cannot live here as sovereign and certainly not as an invader. On the other hand, whoever lives here and undermines the sovereignty or permits himself to do thigs that are forbidden by Noahide Laws should please move to another place"
http://ribonut.co.il/images/ribonut_9_en.pdf

Now what is a "Ger Toshav" and how it applies to both Rabbinic law and common law. As far as influence of Jewish law on common law the Israeli courts recognize the 13 concepts of law interpretation that are used in what the call "Hebrew law" in cases where common law has difficulty to decide, especially if a case deals with specifically issue that need comprehension of Jewish law in order to understand person's motives, or if a person rejects a hearing in Rabbinic court, and such a case is passed to civil court.
First of all as far as I understand there can be a request in special cases to prefer a decision in the "spirit of Hebrew law", second these 13 specific concepts are used as interpretation techniques not only in Israel but in many cases all throughout the western world. It exactly deals with how to interpret cases in common law, the only difference can be is when a person asks to apply Jewish law in addition to these techniques it may be taken in account. So may be requests in recognizing motives dealing with religious nature of other faiths in the civil court.

Sorry for the length, but I have to be specific.
Q. So what is Ger Tohav in Jewish law and how it applies to what is being presented as the plan for sovereignty?

Ger is what is commonly known as the resident status.
It is conditional upon the Noahide laws and recognition of sovereignty of the Jewish nation. With the reconstitution of of Israel, Rabbi Kook ZTZ"L when establishing the Chief Rabbinate recognized all members of the Arab communities as Ger Toshav because by virtue of being members of the Abrahamic faiths they have all fulfilled all the basic conditions of Noahide laws. If a citizen wants Jewish law to apply to him beyond the 7 laws that provide him full citizenship, he's called "Righteous Ger", if not he/she's defined as "Kind of the Nations of the World".

Q.What regarding political status?
In practice vast majority of those who are described as residents of Israel according to Jewish law are citizens with full rights and access to their own religious authorities and courts, again under the frame of common law.

When Rabbi Kook ZTZ"L ruled that way it was not something new or a precedent, but based on Jewish law. The Jewish philosophers always looked to understand and comprehend the part and purpose other faiths have in the greater good of the world, especially the Abrahamic religions. In spite of all the hostility towards us and seemingly small differences that evolved into big ones, we still agree on much of the same cultural concepts. This is a central concept in Jewish thought, joined Tikun 'Olam and Kidush HaShem that belongs to any person, but in our case without forcing our culture or trying to convert anyone.
With that said and not without the respect for Christianity and Islam, in all that context of similarity and contradiction, we have to recognize that both also have a great complex of hostility towards the Jewish nation and tradition.

Ezrah - translated as citizen in English, in Jewish law means anyone to whom applies Rabbinic law.
Ger Toshav - translated as resident and sometimes as guest, but in practice mean mostly citizens or those who keep other nationality but recognize Israels sovereignty and have a right to permanently live in the country, have rights and protections.
Ger - mostly businessmen and tourists who stay for short period for interests other than permanent living .

Those are the implication for the 3 categories when people discuss those terms , and these terms differ in common law, however specifically defined. I've mentioned key sources to understand the context and parallels.