Who are the Israelis?

I just read the last half dozen pages of this interesting conversation. However, I don't recall seeing any input from the Palestinians.

Did I miss something?
 
I just read the last half dozen pages of this interesting conversation. However, I don't recall seeing any input from the Palestinians.

Did I miss something?
Sheikh Tamimi of Qatar - "Our Sovereignty Is A Red Line"


:04:
 
What Arabs in Hebron Really Think About Israeli Sovereignty in Judea and Samaria

Ashraf Jabari, an Arab Muslim resident of Hebron talks about relations with the Jewish community, spokesperson Noam Arnon, Israeli sovereignty in Judea and Samaria, and what local Arabs think about the Palestinian Authority. This speech was part of a panel discussion at the 4th annual Sovereignty Conference held in Jerusalem. Also on the panel were Noam Arnon of Hebron, Sheikh Abu Halil El-Tamimi, Abu Naim al Tarifi of Ramallah, Anett Haskia of Akko, journalist Shalom Yerushalmi of Ma'ariv news, and Jonathan Elkhoury of Lebanon. Speeches were held in Arabic and Hebrew with translation into English.

*press CC for subtitles

 
Ultra-Orthodox Woman Finds Home in Israeli Labor Party

One woman's candidacy for Israel's Labor party is making headlines. Michal Zernowitski is 38-years-old, a feminist, a leftist and and ultra- Orthodox Jew. Meet the woman who is confounding prejudices in Israel. Our Julia Ganansia and Rotem Ben Hamo have the story.

 
US Amb. to Israel Friedman on Israeli-Palestinian Peace Deal

At the Israeli-Palestinian International Economic Forum, U.S. Ambassador to Israel David Friedman dished on the Israeli-Palestinian peace deal prospects. What would it take to get a deal done and what's standing in the way? Mohammad Al-Kassim analyzes.


 
I just read the last half dozen pages of this interesting conversation. However, I don't recall seeing any input from the Palestinians.

Did I miss something?

Indeed. The Arab Palestinians appear to lack the ability to have anything to input.
 
... the Palestinian identity on the other side of the river is "now Jews allowed", on 78% of that land and no one seems to raise a brow.

Exactly. Where are the people crying about the loss of Jewish identity (nevermind actual Jews) in Gaza, in Judea and Samaria, in Jordan and Syria and Iraq and Iran and Tunisia and Morocco, etc, etc etc?

Who is fighting for the Jewish identity there?
We are not talking about there. we are talking about a very tiny group of people who call themselves Palestinians and their identity. Why is it so important to deny them that?
 
Here is one view of sovereignty, from the left. Do you agree? Disagree? Agree with some of it...disagree with other points?

How Israeli right-wing thinkers envision the annexation of the West Bank

How Israeli Right-wing Thinkers Envision the Annexation of the West Bank
From granting the Palestinians the right to vote in Jordan to expelling them creatively – how rightists propose to apply Israeli sovereignty in the Palestinian Territories

....
Katzover and Matar aren’t alone. The “sovereignty dialogue” is gaining pace in Israel, so now is the time to examine what the proponents of sovereignty mean when they talk about it. Katzover and Matar told me who they think the major players are, so I set out to discover what they’re anguishing over and which issues bother them – legally, economically and morally – and what they argue about among themselves.


Naftali Bennett: ‘Autonomy on steroids’

And then there’s a “Marshall Plan” for Judea and Samaria. If I were prime minister, I’d do it immediately.

“1. Freedom of movement between Binyamin and Gush Etzion – between Ramallah and Bethlehem. I begin by building that road.

“2. I triple the number of lanes for security checks, so that an Arab who lives in Nablus and works in Rosh Ha’ayin won’t wait three hours at the checkpoints, but five minutes. There will be dignity and respect for every person at the checkpoints.

“3. An open tourist region. In terms of tourism, the Land of Israel is one unit, so a ship will dock at Haifa and from there the tourists will travel to Nazareth, Nablus, Jerusalem, Bethlehem, Hebron, and a stamp of transit for an integrated tourist region can be organized for them to get the ball rolling.

“4. A land port in Jenin. A dock, or more than one, can be allocated to the Palestinians in Haifa. Apart from the security responsibility, the customs responsibility will be theirs. We won’t levy anything, there will be a passage from Haifa to Jenin, and the offloading will take place in Jenin.

“5. I establish joint industrial zones for Arabs and Jews, as exist now, but 10 times as many in Judea and Samaria. The Palestinian people – all told – are of a high level. Israel faces serious personnel problems in countless areas, from agriculture and construction to high-tech, and we can create a very good opportunity. Palestinians working in Israeli businesses is a very significant layer of the realistic Palestinian economy.

“6. Upgrading of infrastructure in Judea and Samaria. It’s unbelievable that the chief road artery in Judea and Samaria looks like a neglected alley. How does it serve the Israeli interest if settlers or Palestinians wait in line for an hour to enter at Hizma [near Jerusalem]? It’s intolerable for everyone.

“7. We’re proud of our agricultural technology. We talk about the Israeli [dairy] cow, which yields three or four times as much [as their peers globally], and we go to India or China to apply it. Why not in the Palestinian Authority, our neighbors?

“Those steps give a real spurt to the quality of life in Judea and Samaria – a life of dignity, [though] not full realization of the desire for a state. It’s less than a state, but it seems to me to be as good as it gets.

“I don’t rule out functional autonomy within Jordan. If Jordan decides on it and the Palestinians want to be citizens of Jordan who live in the Palestinian Authority or in Area C, that’s also possible. If they want to live in Moti Kedar’s cantons [see below], that’s also possible. They will decide. But in the end, there is one status in the territories of Israel, namely the citizens of Israel.There won’t be one territory with two statuses. Accordingly, there is no apartheid here.”


Martin Sherman: The transfer method

Martin Sherman, the founder and CEO of the Israel Institute for Strategic Studies, is probably the most extreme of all the annexationists. He advocates applying Israeli sovereignty to the whole West Bank and is also the only one who wants to annex the Gaza Strip as well. He says there is no other way to ensure Israel’s security militarily.

“Bennett’s plan sounds logical, until you look at the map, and then you see corridors everywhere, so sovereignty is meaningless,” he says. “Even if there is only a 30 percent Palestinian minority, it’s still a recipe for Lebanonization. They’re a very hostile group.”

According to Sherman, Israel needs to act vigorously to reduce the Arab presence. How? War is the most effective way, Sherman says (because "'kinetic means' are more acceptable," as he told the Ribonut correspondent). But if there’s no war - and Sherman claims he's not calling to start one - “a series of incentives is needed so they’ll leave. Positive incentives – money for families that leave and negative ones: to declare them an enemy and start to gradually reduce the provision of services and goods to the Palestinians” in both the West Bank and Gaza.

In Sherman’s view, Israel has no moral, legal or practical obligation to maintain the socioeconomic life of an enemy that’s committed to its extinction. On the contrary, its moral obligation is to bring about its collapse in order to prevent attempts to liquidate Israel and kill its citizens. Together with declaring the Palestinians a collective enemy, Israel should revoke its recognition of the PA and work to dismantle it.

“Anyone who wants to leave should take an emigration package and look for somewhere else to live,” Sherman says. “Let them go to Indonesia, or India, for example. Transfer isn’t a dirty word.”


Mordechai Kedar: The emirates method

To understand the emirates plan of Middle East affairs expert Mordechai Kedar (of Bar-Ilan University and the Begin-Sadat Center for Strategic Studies), you must hear his take on the entire region. “In the Middle East, the strongest group is the family, and then the extended family, the clan, the tribe. Most of the modern states in the Middle East – Iraq, Syria, Sudan, Jordan, Algeria, Tunisia, Morocco – were created by colonialists, and the state was forced on the groups that lived in its territory,” he says.

“The idea of the modern state wasn’t welcomed by the majority of citizens, and it didn’t supplant traditional loyalties. So there’s no ‘Syrian people,’ no ‘Iraqi people’ and no ‘Libyan people.’

“The Palestinian story is much the same. We tried to build a people on the basis of the idea of a Palestinian state, to remove the primary reference group and create a national consciousness that wouldn’t be challenged by competing forms of consciousness: the tribe, the ethnic, religious or communal group. That attempt isn’t working. Accordingly, we need to act according to the successful model of the Gulf emirates, which are based on local families.”

Here, then, are the stages of Kedar’s plan, in his words:

“1. Recognizing the Gaza Strip as a state, because it possesses all of a state’s attributes. Hamas has ruled in Gaza for 11 years, and its government takes the right attitude toward the local families.

“2. Application of Israeli sovereignty to all of Judea and Samaria.

“3. Dismantlement of the Palestinian Authority.

“4. Establishment of seven emirates – city-states – in the West Bank: in Arab Hebron and in Jericho, Ramallah, Qalqilyah, Tul Karm, Nablus and Jenin. They would be independent emirates based on the local families. The emirates’ inhabitants will be their citizens – citizens of the Emirate of Hebron, citizens of the Emirate of Nablus and so on.

“5. The rural areas will remain under Israeli sovereignty.

“6. Israel should offer Israeli citizenship to the residents of the rural villages, who make up about 10 percent of the Arab population in the West Bank and don’t pose a demographic threat. They will live in Israel like the Arabs of the Galilee and the Little Triangle Area in central Israel, which is roughly bounded by the Arab towns of Baka al-Garbiyeh, Taibeh and Tira.

Knew this one would come, read it before our conversation just to see how we will be attacked.
So predictable.

What is wrong with it? Some interesting ideas. I actually agree with some. I don’t understand you. Any criticism and you yell about demonizing Israel yet you demonize the Palestinians non stop. I quote from some of the actual people behind the sovereignty movement and you seem to think that is unfair. You deny the Palestinians their identity as if it can only be had at the expense of a Jewish identity. Well bullshit on all of that.

Did You really honestly "quote" from them, or from sources with a clear opposing agenda?
It's more important to me than it would ever be to You, so please whenever You're ready to have an honest discourse I'll respect that.

You can choose to believe what you wish. I googled the terms and that is what came up.

I wonder if you choose your own sources with a bias in mind when you post your demonizing Palestinian stuff?

Honest discussion is a two way street.

Good day.

Good day to You too.
You want to talk about honesty and sources?
Yesterday I already wrote a response to what You said about Rabbi Elyahu, it was obvious You read it in some other place other than the original, and You didn't know to tell me his exact so we could be specific. None of Your links as far as I looked mentioned what You wrote. As I said I already wrote a response to that conversation basing on my mere guess of what might have been the specifics of the issue, but deleted it because it was too much discussion on term of Jewish law and how it applies to the practice of common law in western democracies. Believe it or not right after deleting it I found the original source, and it was interesting that, as far as see it I expressed the issue very close to what Rabbi Shmuel Elyahu said regarding the Arab communities in Judea:

"There's a concept of Ger toshav, who is someone that accepts upon himself seven Noahide Laws and the sovereignty of the People of Israel in its Land. In such a situation, it is possible to allow him, under certain conditions, to live here, and of course, he also has rights. The conditions for this are detailed in the Seven Noahide Laws, which means he should accept upon himself to live the normal life of normal person, who does not steal agricultural equipment or land and does not support the phenomenon of theft, does not commit murder for reasons family honor or other reasons, does not attack a bus on the street because it did not allow him to pass. These are normal conditions that are required from anyone who lives here as a visitor in the Jewish state. He cannot live here as sovereign and certainly not as an invader. On the other hand, whoever lives here and undermines the sovereignty or permits himself to do thigs that are forbidden by Noahide Laws should please move to another place"
http://ribonut.co.il/images/ribonut_9_en.pdf

Now what is a "Ger Toshav" and how it applies to both Rabbinic law and common law. As far as influence of Jewish law on common law the Israeli courts recognize the 13 concepts of law interpretation that are used in what the call "Hebrew law" in cases where common law has difficulty to decide, especially if a case deals with specifically issue that need comprehension of Jewish law in order to understand person's motives, or if a person rejects a hearing in Rabbinic court, and such a case is passed to civil court.
First of all as far as I understand there can be a request in special cases to prefer a decision in the "spirit of Hebrew law", second these 13 specific concepts are used as interpretation techniques not only in Israel but in many cases all throughout the western world. It exactly deals with how to interpret cases in common law, the only difference can be is when a person asks to apply Jewish law in addition to these techniques it may be taken in account. So may be requests in recognizing motives dealing with religious nature of other faiths in the civil court.

Sorry for the length, but I have to be specific.
Q. So what is Ger Tohav in Jewish law and how it applies to what is being presented as the plan for sovereignty?

Ger is what is commonly known as the resident status.
It is conditional upon the Noahide laws and recognition of sovereignty of the Jewish nation. With the reconstitution of of Israel, Rabbi Kook ZTZ"L when establishing the Chief Rabbinate recognized all members of the Arab communities as Ger Toshav because by virtue of being members of the Abrahamic faiths they have all fulfilled all the basic conditions of Noahide laws. If a citizen wants Jewish law to apply to him beyond the 7 laws that provide him full citizenship, he's called "Righteous Ger", if not he/she's defined as "Kind of the Nations of the World".

Q.What regarding political status?
In practice vast majority of those who are described as residents of Israel according to Jewish law are citizens with full rights and access to their own religious authorities and courts, again under the frame of common law.

When Rabbi Kook ZTZ"L ruled that way it was not something new or a precedent, but based on Jewish law. The Jewish philosophers always looked to understand and comprehend the part and purpose other faiths have in the greater good of the world, especially the Abrahamic religions. In spite of all the hostility towards us and seemingly small differences that evolved into big ones, we still agree on much of the same cultural concepts. This is a central concept in Jewish thought, joined Tikun 'Olam and Kidush HaShem that belongs to any person, but in our case without forcing our culture or trying to convert anyone.
With that said and not without the respect for Christianity and Islam, in all that context of similarity and contradiction, we have to recognize that both also have a great complex of hostility towards the Jewish nation and tradition.

Ezrah - translated as citizen in English, in Jewish law means anyone to whom applies Rabbinic law.
Ger Toshav - translated as resident and sometimes as guest, but in practice mean mostly citizens or those who keep other nationality but recognize Israels sovereignty and have a right to permanently live in the country, have rights and protections.
Ger - mostly businessmen and tourists who stay for short period for interests other than permanent living .

Those are the implication for the 3 categories when people discuss those terms , and these terms differ in common law, however specifically defined. I've mentioned key sources to understand the context and parallels.
What I said came from what I linked and not somewhere else.

What I said: According to my understanding of what Rabbi Eliyahu says, there status would seem to be that of a guest...rather than citizen.

That is exactly how page 8 of the source I linked to seems to be saying. I frankly don’t see why you are insisting it came from elsewhere. It exactly like their status would be that of a guest, tolerated as long as they behaved and not a citizen.

Perhaps that is the problem with using theology to define a modern state and govern people who can never be wholly of that state by those definitions. It actually sounds a lot like the Muslim view of the special status of the Abrahamic faiths and of dhimmis.
 
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... the Palestinian identity on the other side of the river is "now Jews allowed", on 78% of that land and no one seems to raise a brow.

Exactly. Where are the people crying about the loss of Jewish identity (nevermind actual Jews) in Gaza, in Judea and Samaria, in Jordan and Syria and Iraq and Iran and Tunisia and Morocco, etc, etc etc?

Who is fighting for the Jewish identity there?
We are not talking about there. we are talking about a very tiny group of people who call themselves Palestinians and their identity. Why is it so important to deny them that?

We are speaking, broadly, of how to preserve and protect identities of minority cultures in nations built around a different culture.

If you don't CARE to address how Jewish identity should be preserved in Gaza and in Judea and Samaria and in Jordan and Syria and Iran and Iraq and in Tunisia and Morocco, why should we believe that your motivation is to preserve minority cultural identities? Seems rather hypocritical of you to demand the preservation of Arab Palestinian culture while dismissing the preservation of Jewish culture in places where Jews are a minority.
 
Knew this one would come, read it before our conversation just to see how we will be attacked.
So predictable.

What is wrong with it? Some interesting ideas. I actually agree with some. I don’t understand you. Any criticism and you yell about demonizing Israel yet you demonize the Palestinians non stop. I quote from some of the actual people behind the sovereignty movement and you seem to think that is unfair. You deny the Palestinians their identity as if it can only be had at the expense of a Jewish identity. Well bullshit on all of that.

Did You really honestly "quote" from them, or from sources with a clear opposing agenda?
It's more important to me than it would ever be to You, so please whenever You're ready to have an honest discourse I'll respect that.

You can choose to believe what you wish. I googled the terms and that is what came up.

I wonder if you choose your own sources with a bias in mind when you post your demonizing Palestinian stuff?

Honest discussion is a two way street.

Good day.

Good day to You too.
You want to talk about honesty and sources?
Yesterday I already wrote a response to what You said about Rabbi Elyahu, it was obvious You read it in some other place other than the original, and You didn't know to tell me his exact so we could be specific. None of Your links as far as I looked mentioned what You wrote. As I said I already wrote a response to that conversation basing on my mere guess of what might have been the specifics of the issue, but deleted it because it was too much discussion on term of Jewish law and how it applies to the practice of common law in western democracies. Believe it or not right after deleting it I found the original source, and it was interesting that, as far as see it I expressed the issue very close to what Rabbi Shmuel Elyahu said regarding the Arab communities in Judea:

"There's a concept of Ger toshav, who is someone that accepts upon himself seven Noahide Laws and the sovereignty of the People of Israel in its Land. In such a situation, it is possible to allow him, under certain conditions, to live here, and of course, he also has rights. The conditions for this are detailed in the Seven Noahide Laws, which means he should accept upon himself to live the normal life of normal person, who does not steal agricultural equipment or land and does not support the phenomenon of theft, does not commit murder for reasons family honor or other reasons, does not attack a bus on the street because it did not allow him to pass. These are normal conditions that are required from anyone who lives here as a visitor in the Jewish state. He cannot live here as sovereign and certainly not as an invader. On the other hand, whoever lives here and undermines the sovereignty or permits himself to do thigs that are forbidden by Noahide Laws should please move to another place"
http://ribonut.co.il/images/ribonut_9_en.pdf

Now what is a "Ger Toshav" and how it applies to both Rabbinic law and common law. As far as influence of Jewish law on common law the Israeli courts recognize the 13 concepts of law interpretation that are used in what the call "Hebrew law" in cases where common law has difficulty to decide, especially if a case deals with specifically issue that need comprehension of Jewish law in order to understand person's motives, or if a person rejects a hearing in Rabbinic court, and such a case is passed to civil court.
First of all as far as I understand there can be a request in special cases to prefer a decision in the "spirit of Hebrew law", second these 13 specific concepts are used as interpretation techniques not only in Israel but in many cases all throughout the western world. It exactly deals with how to interpret cases in common law, the only difference can be is when a person asks to apply Jewish law in addition to these techniques it may be taken in account. So may be requests in recognizing motives dealing with religious nature of other faiths in the civil court.

Sorry for the length, but I have to be specific.
Q. So what is Ger Tohav in Jewish law and how it applies to what is being presented as the plan for sovereignty?

Ger is what is commonly known as the resident status.
It is conditional upon the Noahide laws and recognition of sovereignty of the Jewish nation. With the reconstitution of of Israel, Rabbi Kook ZTZ"L when establishing the Chief Rabbinate recognized all members of the Arab communities as Ger Toshav because by virtue of being members of the Abrahamic faiths they have all fulfilled all the basic conditions of Noahide laws. If a citizen wants Jewish law to apply to him beyond the 7 laws that provide him full citizenship, he's called "Righteous Ger", if not he/she's defined as "Kind of the Nations of the World".

Q.What regarding political status?
In practice vast majority of those who are described as residents of Israel according to Jewish law are citizens with full rights and access to their own religious authorities and courts, again under the frame of common law.

When Rabbi Kook ZTZ"L ruled that way it was not something new or a precedent, but based on Jewish law. The Jewish philosophers always looked to understand and comprehend the part and purpose other faiths have in the greater good of the world, especially the Abrahamic religions. In spite of all the hostility towards us and seemingly small differences that evolved into big ones, we still agree on much of the same cultural concepts. This is a central concept in Jewish thought, joined Tikun 'Olam and Kidush HaShem that belongs to any person, but in our case without forcing our culture or trying to convert anyone.
With that said and not without the respect for Christianity and Islam, in all that context of similarity and contradiction, we have to recognize that both also have a great complex of hostility towards the Jewish nation and tradition.

Ezrah - translated as citizen in English, in Jewish law means anyone to whom applies Rabbinic law.
Ger Toshav - translated as resident and sometimes as guest, but in practice mean mostly citizens or those who keep other nationality but recognize Israels sovereignty and have a right to permanently live in the country, have rights and protections.
Ger - mostly businessmen and tourists who stay for short period for interests other than permanent living .

Those are the implication for the 3 categories when people discuss those terms , and these terms differ in common law, however specifically defined. I've mentioned key sources to understand the context and parallels.
What I said came from what I linked and not somewhere else.

What I said: According to my understanding of what Rabbi Eliyahu says, there status would seem to be that of a guest...rather than citizen.

That is exactly how page 8 of the source I linked to seems to be saying. I frankly don’t see why you are insisting it came from elsewhere. It exactly like their status would be that of a guest, tolerated as long as they behaved and not a citizen.

Perhaps that is the problem with using theology to define a modern state and govern people who can never be wholly of that state by those definitions. It actually sounds a lot like the Muslim view of the special status of the Abrahamic faiths and of dhimmis.

Regarding the link Yes, my mistake You've posted the same one, I didn't see.
Though it was strange how You couldn't give the name of the Rabbi or the actual quote.

The dhimmi status is of a non-citizen, and not by choice. Under those rules Jews were not allowed to ride horses or camels, own weapons, build synagogues taller than mosques or houses, , could not display religious symbols in public, engrave Arabic in jewelry, sell wine, Jews didn't have the option to be citizens, ware banned from sounding the Shofar on their holiest days or go to the tomb of their patriarchs, had to pay a skull tax and if Jewish girls lost a father they'd be taken by Muslim men.

None of these are suggested, or exist in Jewish law, don't twist it.
What is being discussed are 3 options for the Arab communities in Judea to choose from:
(1) Compensation if can't live with Jews
(2) Residency conditioned on recognition of Israel sovereignty
(3) Citizenship
 
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Why is it so important to deny them that?

Because they deny it to others,
because their version demands no Jews as a precondition to their sovereignty, even less than a Dhimmi.

Because its end result is total domination of one group over the entire middle east,
at the account and to the detriment of all involved.
 
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US Amb. to Israel Friedman on Israeli-Palestinian Peace Deal

At the Israeli-Palestinian International Economic Forum, U.S. Ambassador to Israel David Friedman dished on the Israeli-Palestinian peace deal prospects. What would it take to get a deal done and what's standing in the way? Mohammad Al-Kassim analyzes.


I know what the Deal of the Century is. The Palestinians will live in small bantustans subservient to Israel. The economy will be low level employment (cheap labor) in Israeli companies.

Watch this space!
 
US Amb. to Israel Friedman on Israeli-Palestinian Peace Deal

At the Israeli-Palestinian International Economic Forum, U.S. Ambassador to Israel David Friedman dished on the Israeli-Palestinian peace deal prospects. What would it take to get a deal done and what's standing in the way? Mohammad Al-Kassim analyzes.


I know what the Deal of the Century is. The Palestinians will live in small bantustans subservient to Israel. The economy will be low level employment (cheap labor) in Israeli companies.

Watch this space!


Why do You have to twist everything to the most ridiculous extreme?
None of what ambassador Friedman said had to do with skin color, if Arabs want to build new companies where they employ everyone, they're more than welcome, they can do it as Israelis.
 
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US Amb. to Israel Friedman on Israeli-Palestinian Peace Deal

At the Israeli-Palestinian International Economic Forum, U.S. Ambassador to Israel David Friedman dished on the Israeli-Palestinian peace deal prospects. What would it take to get a deal done and what's standing in the way? Mohammad Al-Kassim analyzes.


I know what the Deal of the Century is. The Palestinians will live in small bantustans subservient to Israel. The economy will be low level employment (cheap labor) in Israeli companies.

Watch this space!


Why do You have to twist everything to the most ridiculous extreme?
None of what ambassador Friedman said hat to do with skin color.

I didn't say anything about skin color either.

What is your point?
 
US Amb. to Israel Friedman on Israeli-Palestinian Peace Deal

At the Israeli-Palestinian International Economic Forum, U.S. Ambassador to Israel David Friedman dished on the Israeli-Palestinian peace deal prospects. What would it take to get a deal done and what's standing in the way? Mohammad Al-Kassim analyzes.


I know what the Deal of the Century is. The Palestinians will live in small bantustans subservient to Israel. The economy will be low level employment (cheap labor) in Israeli companies.

Watch this space!


Why do You have to twist everything to the most ridiculous extreme?
None of what ambassador Friedman said hat to do with skin color.

I didn't say anything about skin color either.

What is your point?

Yes You did,
why project racist terms into what he said?

I think that's all he's been hearing for the last several years, nothing but a bunch of frivolous accusations coming from the Arab side, without any ability to form a coherent sound position that could be viable for any serious considerations.
 
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After the Holocaust, the Creation of a Jewish State Was Anything but Guaranteed


Some 30 years after purchasing a used copy of The Redemption of the Unwanted: From the Liberation of the Death Camps to the Founding of Israel, by Abram Sachar—first published in 1983—Allan Arkush finally sat down to read it. He writes:

I have to say that it doesn’t contain much that I didn’t already know. Its chief merit is that it does an exceptionally good job of teaching what I consider to be a very important lesson.

Most people in the United States, I’m afraid, if they know anything at all about how the state of Israel came into being, believe that after World War II the nations of the world awarded it to the Jewish people as a compensation for what Jews had suffered at the hands of the Nazis. There’s a grain of truth in this, but only a grain. Between 1945 and 1949, the Zionists had to do a tremendous number of things on their own in order to obtain a state. They engaged in a vast amount of worldwide politicking, organized illegal immigration to Palestine, combatted the British administration in Palestine in order both to earn the world’s sympathy and to force the British government’s hand. Had the Zionists not done all of this, there would have been no decision at the United Nations to partition Palestine and create a Jewish state.

And had the Jews of Palestine then sat on their hands and waited for the UN to implement its decision, that state would never have come into being. They had to fight, on their own, a war of independence against the Arabs of Palestine as well as all of the surrounding nations. Abram Sachar was by no means the first or the last to explain all of this, but he did a singularly good job of it.


After the Holocaust, the Creation of a Jewish State Was Anything but Guaranteed
 
... the Palestinian identity on the other side of the river is "now Jews allowed", on 78% of that land and no one seems to raise a brow.

Exactly. Where are the people crying about the loss of Jewish identity (nevermind actual Jews) in Gaza, in Judea and Samaria, in Jordan and Syria and Iraq and Iran and Tunisia and Morocco, etc, etc etc?

Who is fighting for the Jewish identity there?
We are not talking about there. we are talking about a very tiny group of people who call themselves Palestinians and their identity. Why is it so important to deny them that?

We are speaking, broadly, of how to preserve and protect identities of minority cultures in nations built around a different culture.

If you don't CARE to address how Jewish identity should be preserved in Gaza and in Judea and Samaria and in Jordan and Syria and Iran and Iraq and in Tunisia and Morocco, why should we believe that your motivation is to preserve minority cultural identities? Seems rather hypocritical of you to demand the preservation of Arab Palestinian culture while dismissing the preservation of Jewish culture in places where Jews are a minority.
I am not dismissing anything. But why is everytime Palestinian culture is brought up we can't discuss it without "what abouts"? We were talking about one particular region and it's future and that of its minority culture so you are demanding we talk about about preserving all cultures...in order to not be hypocritical. Right what about Basque culture and Inuit culture....and so forth. Why are you only concerned about Jewish culture?
 
What is wrong with it? Some interesting ideas. I actually agree with some. I don’t understand you. Any criticism and you yell about demonizing Israel yet you demonize the Palestinians non stop. I quote from some of the actual people behind the sovereignty movement and you seem to think that is unfair. You deny the Palestinians their identity as if it can only be had at the expense of a Jewish identity. Well bullshit on all of that.

Did You really honestly "quote" from them, or from sources with a clear opposing agenda?
It's more important to me than it would ever be to You, so please whenever You're ready to have an honest discourse I'll respect that.

You can choose to believe what you wish. I googled the terms and that is what came up.

I wonder if you choose your own sources with a bias in mind when you post your demonizing Palestinian stuff?

Honest discussion is a two way street.

Good day.

Good day to You too.
You want to talk about honesty and sources?
Yesterday I already wrote a response to what You said about Rabbi Elyahu, it was obvious You read it in some other place other than the original, and You didn't know to tell me his exact so we could be specific. None of Your links as far as I looked mentioned what You wrote. As I said I already wrote a response to that conversation basing on my mere guess of what might have been the specifics of the issue, but deleted it because it was too much discussion on term of Jewish law and how it applies to the practice of common law in western democracies. Believe it or not right after deleting it I found the original source, and it was interesting that, as far as see it I expressed the issue very close to what Rabbi Shmuel Elyahu said regarding the Arab communities in Judea:

"There's a concept of Ger toshav, who is someone that accepts upon himself seven Noahide Laws and the sovereignty of the People of Israel in its Land. In such a situation, it is possible to allow him, under certain conditions, to live here, and of course, he also has rights. The conditions for this are detailed in the Seven Noahide Laws, which means he should accept upon himself to live the normal life of normal person, who does not steal agricultural equipment or land and does not support the phenomenon of theft, does not commit murder for reasons family honor or other reasons, does not attack a bus on the street because it did not allow him to pass. These are normal conditions that are required from anyone who lives here as a visitor in the Jewish state. He cannot live here as sovereign and certainly not as an invader. On the other hand, whoever lives here and undermines the sovereignty or permits himself to do thigs that are forbidden by Noahide Laws should please move to another place"
http://ribonut.co.il/images/ribonut_9_en.pdf

Now what is a "Ger Toshav" and how it applies to both Rabbinic law and common law. As far as influence of Jewish law on common law the Israeli courts recognize the 13 concepts of law interpretation that are used in what the call "Hebrew law" in cases where common law has difficulty to decide, especially if a case deals with specifically issue that need comprehension of Jewish law in order to understand person's motives, or if a person rejects a hearing in Rabbinic court, and such a case is passed to civil court.
First of all as far as I understand there can be a request in special cases to prefer a decision in the "spirit of Hebrew law", second these 13 specific concepts are used as interpretation techniques not only in Israel but in many cases all throughout the western world. It exactly deals with how to interpret cases in common law, the only difference can be is when a person asks to apply Jewish law in addition to these techniques it may be taken in account. So may be requests in recognizing motives dealing with religious nature of other faiths in the civil court.

Sorry for the length, but I have to be specific.
Q. So what is Ger Tohav in Jewish law and how it applies to what is being presented as the plan for sovereignty?

Ger is what is commonly known as the resident status.
It is conditional upon the Noahide laws and recognition of sovereignty of the Jewish nation. With the reconstitution of of Israel, Rabbi Kook ZTZ"L when establishing the Chief Rabbinate recognized all members of the Arab communities as Ger Toshav because by virtue of being members of the Abrahamic faiths they have all fulfilled all the basic conditions of Noahide laws. If a citizen wants Jewish law to apply to him beyond the 7 laws that provide him full citizenship, he's called "Righteous Ger", if not he/she's defined as "Kind of the Nations of the World".

Q.What regarding political status?
In practice vast majority of those who are described as residents of Israel according to Jewish law are citizens with full rights and access to their own religious authorities and courts, again under the frame of common law.

When Rabbi Kook ZTZ"L ruled that way it was not something new or a precedent, but based on Jewish law. The Jewish philosophers always looked to understand and comprehend the part and purpose other faiths have in the greater good of the world, especially the Abrahamic religions. In spite of all the hostility towards us and seemingly small differences that evolved into big ones, we still agree on much of the same cultural concepts. This is a central concept in Jewish thought, joined Tikun 'Olam and Kidush HaShem that belongs to any person, but in our case without forcing our culture or trying to convert anyone.
With that said and not without the respect for Christianity and Islam, in all that context of similarity and contradiction, we have to recognize that both also have a great complex of hostility towards the Jewish nation and tradition.

Ezrah - translated as citizen in English, in Jewish law means anyone to whom applies Rabbinic law.
Ger Toshav - translated as resident and sometimes as guest, but in practice mean mostly citizens or those who keep other nationality but recognize Israels sovereignty and have a right to permanently live in the country, have rights and protections.
Ger - mostly businessmen and tourists who stay for short period for interests other than permanent living .

Those are the implication for the 3 categories when people discuss those terms , and these terms differ in common law, however specifically defined. I've mentioned key sources to understand the context and parallels.
What I said came from what I linked and not somewhere else.

What I said: According to my understanding of what Rabbi Eliyahu says, there status would seem to be that of a guest...rather than citizen.

That is exactly how page 8 of the source I linked to seems to be saying. I frankly don’t see why you are insisting it came from elsewhere. It exactly like their status would be that of a guest, tolerated as long as they behaved and not a citizen.

Perhaps that is the problem with using theology to define a modern state and govern people who can never be wholly of that state by those definitions. It actually sounds a lot like the Muslim view of the special status of the Abrahamic faiths and of dhimmis.

Regarding the link Yes, my mistake You've posted the same one, I didn't see.
Though it was strange how You couldn't give the name of the Rabbi or the actual quote.
No. It is not strange at all.
I gave the name of the Rabbi as was given in the link. For some reason it would not allow me to cut and paste so I went further and provided the page in the article where both his name and statements were along with context.

Why are you continuing to quibble?

The dhimmi status is of a non-citizen, and not by choice. Under those rules Jews were not allowed to ride horses or camels, own weapons, build synagogues taller than mosques or houses, , could not display religious symbols in public, engrave Arabic in jewelry, sell wine, Jews didn't have the option to be citizens, ware banned from sounding the Shofar on their holiest days or go to the tomb of their patriarchs, had to pay a skull tax and if Jewish girls lost a father they'd be taken by Muslim men.

None of these are suggested, or exist in Jewish law, don't twist it.
What is being discussed are 3 options for the Arab communities in Judea to choose from:
(1) Compensation if can't live with Jews
(2) Residency conditioned on recognition of Israel sovereignty
(3) Citizenship

All should be offered choice of one of the three...otherwise it is little more than a modern version of the ancient dhimmi system. Some of the options did not sound like that at all, dont pretend otherwise.
 

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