Which Side Are You On?

[TheBrain]

In the case of the steel mills, they were old and not equipped to produce profitably. So, Reagan gave steel makers a tax break. I'm assuming the windfall was to retool their works and get competative again. But, for example, US Steel diversified and bought Aristech Chemical then they shuttered their mills and shipped the equipment to Asia.

Rubbermaid couod not produce their products at a price point acceptable to Wal*Mart. Wal*Mart encouraged Rubbermaid to box up the factory and send it to China so Rubbermaid products could be sold at a price acceptable to Wal*Mart.

What role did the unions have in all this?

They were asked to make sweeping concession in pay, retirement benefits, long term medical coverage and hiring freezes. In every case IN EVERY CASE the unions made those concessions just to keep the opportunities here for future generations.

You keep looking for some Leftist boogeyman. Can't you fathom the vast motivation of greed some corporations have? Sometimes the fault, dear Daveman, is right on the conference table in the board room.

You really think that in EVERY case unions have given in to the wishes of the mean old corporations?

Look the reality is that a companies number one goal is to make money , that's why they exist. They don't exist to give anyone a job, they don't exist to make sure you have rubber products, they don't exist to make anyone feel good, they exist to make a profit PERIOD. Is that greed? Or is that economic reality?

Well when you take a job do you search for one that pays you the maximum amount you can make? When you go shopping do you compare prices? How greedy of you.

 

[Nosmo King]

What role did the unions have in all this?

They were asked to make sweeping concession in pay, retirement benefits, long term medical coverage and hiring freezes. In every case IN EVERY CASE the unions made those concessions just to keep the opportunities here for future generations.

You keep looking for some Leftist boogeyman. Can't you fathom the vast motivation of greed some corporations have? Sometimes the fault, dear Daveman, is right on the conference table in the board room.

Sometimes it is. Sometimes it's in the union hall and the government bureaucracy office.

But we can't acknowledge that, because it gets in the way of looking for the KKKorporate boogeyman, doesn't it?

If I didn't live it, didn't watch it happen, watch it unfold slowly like a cancer every place in this valley I wouldn't believe it.

Sometimes our partisan blinders are on a little too tight to accept the facts we see every day. Perhaps you would consider moving to Youngstown, Ohio or Aliquippa, Pennsylvania or Weirton, West Virginia and sell the notion that our economic downturn is due to the greed of the workers and the malfeasance of our government.

But I doubt you could ever make that leap as easily as you made the leap of faith that lets you dismiss the actions of corporations as consistently beneficial to communities, working families and the American economy.

 

[bripat9643]

Government IS my fellow citizens.

No. I wish that were true.

Who took away your right to vote? You can still vote, can't you? You can still campaign, right?

What can you do to effect the decisions of a corporation?

You affect the decisions of a corporation by choosing to buy or not to buy their products. You can also purchase stock, and then you can vote that stock. You actually have far more control over corporations than you do over the government. Furthermore, corporations don't force you to pay for their products. The government does.

Why do you think you need to control Ford Motor Corporation?

 

[Nosmo King]

No. I wish that were true.

Who took away your right to vote? You can still vote, can't you? You can still campaign, right?

What can you do to effect the decisions of a corporation?

You affect the decisions of a corporation by choosing to buy or not to buy their products. You can also purchase stock, and then you can vote that stock. You actually have far more control over corporations than you do over the government. Furthermore, corporations don't force you to pay for their products. The government does.

Why do you think you need to control Ford Motor Corporation?

How did you come to the conclusion I want to control Ford?

And the next time Ohio Power spews tons of sulfur into the atmosphere, I know what will show them! I'll stop using electricity! The next time Crucible Steel dumps hydrofluoric acid into the Ohio River, I'll buy stock in them and tell them exactly what I think! I sure have a lot of power over corporations!

 

[daveman]

They were asked to make sweeping concession in pay, retirement benefits, long term medical coverage and hiring freezes. In every case IN EVERY CASE the unions made those concessions just to keep the opportunities here for future generations.

You keep looking for some Leftist boogeyman. Can't you fathom the vast motivation of greed some corporations have? Sometimes the fault, dear Daveman, is right on the conference table in the board room.

Sometimes it is. Sometimes it's in the union hall and the government bureaucracy office.

But we can't acknowledge that, because it gets in the way of looking for the KKKorporate boogeyman, doesn't it?

If I didn't live it, didn't watch it happen, watch it unfold slowly like a cancer every place in this valley I wouldn't believe it.

Sometimes our partisan blinders are on a little too tight to accept the facts we see every day. Perhaps you would consider moving to Youngstown, Ohio or Aliquippa, Pennsylvania or Weirton, West Virginia and sell the notion that our economic downturn is due to the greed of the workers and the malfeasance of our government.

But I doubt you could ever make that leap as easily as you made the leap of faith that lets you dismiss the actions of corporations as consistently beneficial to communities, working families and the American economy.

You say I have blinders on, but refuse to consider why your own view is so narrow.

I guess you missed the part where I said companies have had a role in their relocation. Can you admit that it's not always their choice?

 

[Mr. Shaman]

Anybody remember Archie and Edith?

"Everybody pulled his weight.
Didn't need no welfare state...
Those were the days!"

Archie Bunker, protagonist of the popular 1970s TV sitcom "All in the Family" and today's Tea Party movement seem to share a misconception of just how "conservative" the 1930s, 40s and 50s actually were.

Were those decades a time when hard-working Americans pulled themselves up by their own bootstraps?

"It's true that Americans worked hard during these years.

"But the bootstraps stuff is nonsense.

"The 30s through 50s were the time of the New Deal, low-cost loans from the Federal Housing Administration, the GI Bill, huge subsidies for defense contractors during the Cold War and other industries that employed millions of people, massive transfer of funding from cities to the burgeoning suburbs, federal projects like interstate highway construction and the space program, generous investment in public schools, record union membership, high tax rates for corporations and the wealthy, good job benefits, and Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid, which ensured financial stability in old age and medical crises...

"On the evidence of history, calling today's Republican Party and their Tea Party supporters 'conservative' is as absurd as calling supporters of civil rights and racial justice 'reactionary' because they invoke the values of the Reconstruction Era."

Which Side Are You On? New Language for a New Political Reality | Common Dreams

There is a profound difference between giving a person a Hand up from a Hand out.

Yeah....we know.....

.....COLOR!!

(Same as it's always been.)

 

[Steve Hanson]

I am totally against the welfare state. IMO it is one of the single biggest problems facing America today.

 

[Nosmo King]

Sometimes it is. Sometimes it's in the union hall and the government bureaucracy office.

But we can't acknowledge that, because it gets in the way of looking for the KKKorporate boogeyman, doesn't it?

If I didn't live it, didn't watch it happen, watch it unfold slowly like a cancer every place in this valley I wouldn't believe it.

Sometimes our partisan blinders are on a little too tight to accept the facts we see every day. Perhaps you would consider moving to Youngstown, Ohio or Aliquippa, Pennsylvania or Weirton, West Virginia and sell the notion that our economic downturn is due to the greed of the workers and the malfeasance of our government.

But I doubt you could ever make that leap as easily as you made the leap of faith that lets you dismiss the actions of corporations as consistently beneficial to communities, working families and the American economy.

You say I have blinders on, but refuse to consider why your own view is so narrow.

I guess you missed the part where I said companies have had a role in their relocation. Can you admit that it's not always their choice?

Rubbermaid would not have moved by their own choice. But, if they want to market their product at the World's Largest Retailer, Rubbermaid had to dance to Wal*Mart's tune. The same dynamic was in play for Sterling China.

As for steel, the decision was made to ship the works off to Asia to take advantage of the dirt cheap labor there. As well as the lax environmental regulations. If you think we should roll our standard of living back to the standards set in Singapore just so a company can make steel here, I submit that this idea can not, under any circumstances be thought of as a good thing for America. A vibrant middle class is essential to maintaining our republic.

Otherwise, we have the rich and the poor and the company making the decision for society. Kind of like Rhodesia.

 

[konradv]

Anybody remember Archie and Edith?

"Everybody pulled his weight.
Didn't need no welfare state...
Those were the days!"

Archie Bunker, protagonist of the popular 1970s TV sitcom "All in the Family" and today's Tea Party movement seem to share a misconception of just how "conservative" the 1930s, 40s and 50s actually were.

Were those decades a time when hard-working Americans pulled themselves up by their own bootstraps?

"It's true that Americans worked hard during these years.

"But the bootstraps stuff is nonsense.

"The 30s through 50s were the time of the New Deal, low-cost loans from the Federal Housing Administration, the GI Bill, huge subsidies for defense contractors during the Cold War and other industries that employed millions of people, massive transfer of funding from cities to the burgeoning suburbs, federal projects like interstate highway construction and the space program, generous investment in public schools, record union membership, high tax rates for corporations and the wealthy, good job benefits, and Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid, which ensured financial stability in old age and medical crises...

"On the evidence of history, calling today's Republican Party and their Tea Party supporters 'conservative' is as absurd as calling supporters of civil rights and racial justice 'reactionary' because they invoke the values of the Reconstruction Era."

Which Side Are You On? New Language for a New Political Reality | Common Dreams

Truth is most of us are on both sides. Just look at all the people who screamed about "socialism" AND warned us "don't touch my Medicare"!!!

 

[konradv]

No. I wish that were true.

Who took away your right to vote? You can still vote, can't you? You can still campaign, right?

What can you do to effect the decisions of a corporation?

You affect the decisions of a corporation by choosing to buy or not to buy their products. You can also purchase stock, and then you can vote that stock. You actually have far more control over corporations than you do over the government. Furthermore, corporations don't force you to pay for their products. The government does.

Why do you think you need to control Ford Motor Corporation?

Your analysis makes no sense. It's a lot easier to vote out politicians than to vote out CEOs and corporate boards. You're talking "one man, one vote" vs "one dollar, one vote". The ones with the dollars are already sitting on the boards, so what chance do we have?

 

[Steve Hanson]

If I didn't live it, didn't watch it happen, watch it unfold slowly like a cancer every place in this valley I wouldn't believe it.

Sometimes our partisan blinders are on a little too tight to accept the facts we see every day. Perhaps you would consider moving to Youngstown, Ohio or Aliquippa, Pennsylvania or Weirton, West Virginia and sell the notion that our economic downturn is due to the greed of the workers and the malfeasance of our government.

But I doubt you could ever make that leap as easily as you made the leap of faith that lets you dismiss the actions of corporations as consistently beneficial to communities, working families and the American economy.

You say I have blinders on, but refuse to consider why your own view is so narrow.

I guess you missed the part where I said companies have had a role in their relocation. Can you admit that it's not always their choice?

Rubbermaid would not have moved by their own choice. But, if they want to market their product at the World's Largest Retailer, Rubbermaid had to dance to Wal*Mart's tune. The same dynamic was in play for Sterling China.

As for steel, the decision was made to ship the works off to Asia to take advantage of the dirt cheap labor there. As well as the lax environmental regulations. If you think we should roll our standard of living back to the standards set in Singapore just so a company can make steel here, I submit that this idea can not, under any circumstances be thought of as a good thing for America. A vibrant middle class is essential to maintaining our republic.

Otherwise, we have the rich and the poor and the company making the decision for society. Kind of like Rhodesia.

A big part of the problem is we have priced ourselves out of the market. Higher wages are required to pay higher costs of living. When ever we are higher than other manufacturing nations jobs are going to migrate. We need to focus on making communities affordable to live and work in.

 

[daveman]

If I didn't live it, didn't watch it happen, watch it unfold slowly like a cancer every place in this valley I wouldn't believe it.

Sometimes our partisan blinders are on a little too tight to accept the facts we see every day. Perhaps you would consider moving to Youngstown, Ohio or Aliquippa, Pennsylvania or Weirton, West Virginia and sell the notion that our economic downturn is due to the greed of the workers and the malfeasance of our government.

But I doubt you could ever make that leap as easily as you made the leap of faith that lets you dismiss the actions of corporations as consistently beneficial to communities, working families and the American economy.

You say I have blinders on, but refuse to consider why your own view is so narrow.

I guess you missed the part where I said companies have had a role in their relocation. Can you admit that it's not always their choice?

Rubbermaid would not have moved by their own choice. But, if they want to market their product at the World's Largest Retailer, Rubbermaid had to dance to Wal*Mart's tune. The same dynamic was in play for Sterling China.

As for steel, the decision was made to ship the works off to Asia to take advantage of the dirt cheap labor there. As well as the lax environmental regulations. If you think we should roll our standard of living back to the standards set in Singapore just so a company can make steel here, I submit that this idea can not, under any circumstances be thought of as a good thing for America. A vibrant middle class is essential to maintaining our republic.

Otherwise, we have the rich and the poor and the company making the decision for society. Kind of like Rhodesia.

I agree. But is the government making decisions for everyone such a good idea? How'd that work out in the Soviet Union?

Here's a thought: We let people make their own decisions about what's best for them, they vote accordingly, and government does the absolute minimum required to make sure everyone's safe and treated fairly. The most individual freedom compatible with civilization.

It's just crazy enough to work!

 

[bripat9643]

In the struggle between Corporate America vs. We the People, which side are you on?

There is no such struggle. There's only the struggle between people who produce something of value and the looters and moochers who want to take it.

 

[bripat9643]

We the People have the power to change the government. How much power do We the People have in corporate board rooms?

Do corporations do a better job of keeping employment here in America than any other entity? Are corporations widely regarded as great stewards of our natural resources? Corporations are motivated by their own profit margins, not the public good.

What do you propose to replace corporations with, the government?

That's all we need, another out-and-out commie on this board.

Do you really want the government making cars and televisions? Ask anyone who lived in East Germany before the wall came down how well that worked out.

 

[bripat9643]

We the People.

Corporate America depends on an All Powerful Central Government to act in its best interests.

I don't see any way to weaken the Corporate State by "choosing" between Republican OR Democrat in the voting booth.

Do you?

Then you won't be voting fo rthe candidate from either party?

Good. We're all grateful that you're eager to disenfranchise yourself.

 

[TheBrain]

Who took away your right to vote? You can still vote, can't you? You can still campaign, right?

What can you do to effect the decisions of a corporation?

You affect the decisions of a corporation by choosing to buy or not to buy their products. You can also purchase stock, and then you can vote that stock. You actually have far more control over corporations than you do over the government. Furthermore, corporations don't force you to pay for their products. The government does.

Why do you think you need to control Ford Motor Corporation?

Your analysis makes no sense. It's a lot easier to vote out politicians than to vote out CEOs and corporate boards. You're talking "one man, one vote" vs "one dollar, one vote". The ones with the dollars are already sitting on the boards, so what chance do we have?

You are of course wrong. We can affect who's in charge of companies both by buying stock and voting and by voting with our dollars. And guess what? We don't have to wait til an arbitrary date rolls around once every four years to do so.

 

[bripat9643]

That's one hell of a leap to make. I trust government more than private corporate interests.

Anyone who trusts the government is a damn fool.

What variety of logic let's you make the assumption that I believe everyone should then work for the government? I'll go out on a limb and guess Glenn Beck taught you everything you know about deductive reasoning.

Who are you going to work for if not the government or a corporation?

 

[bripat9643]

That encroaching monolithic government takes the corporation as its model.

That's utter horseshit and utterly meaningless. "Model" for what?

"Dedication to corporate interests overwhelms all other concerns.

More meaningless horseshit.

"It turns the conflict between free-market capitalism and socialism into a quaint relic from another century, rather like the conflict between the German princes and the Roman Catholic Church during the Reformation.

Your ideas are a quaint relic from another century. Socialism was debunked over 100 years ago. It doesn't work. It can't work. It's a triangle with 4 corners.

"It makes the free market into a myth for the gullible who believe that locally owned Main Street shops can compete with WalMart or Old McDonald's family farm has a chance against Monsanto."

If they were competing with WalMart or Monsanto, then they would be another WalMart or Monsanto and you would be vilifying them. Socialism is simply the ethic of making success into a crime.

 

[bripat9643]

Gov't writes your paycheck and they basically can't lay you off. Of course you trust them.

I trust someone who has an incentive to keep me happy. If companies don't deliver on keeping me happy I'll go elsewhere. If gov't doesn't keep me happy where do I go?

To the voting booth.

You think you can vote yourself a job? that's true only if you want to be a useless tic on the ass of society. We can't all be useless tics. Someone has to actually produce something.

 

[bripat9643]

In the sense that Governor Rick Scott of Florida is a voice for health care reform.

"Consider Gov. Rick Scott of Florida, currently on a mission to overturn the Democrats' health care reform bill. Does Gov. Scott really oppose public spending for health care?

"In 1997, he was forced to resign as CEO of Columbia/HCA after the company pleaded guilty to 14 felonies and agreed to a $600-plus million fine in the largest fraud settlement in US history, for fraud involving Medicare and other public health programs.

"For bilking taxpayers out of hundreds of millions, Rick Scott was paid $9.88 million and allowed to keep 10 million shares of stock worth over $350 million."

Which Side Are You On? New Language for a New Political Reality | Common Dreams

That was all just a a political witch hunt:

RICK SCOTT FOUGHT AGAINST HILLARYCARE...CLINTON ADMIN. TARGETED HIM (FL-gov)

Rick Scott Fought Against HillaryCare...the Clinton Admin. Responded with Regulations and Investigations
- Rick Scott, then-CEO of Columbia/HCA, coordinated private health providers to fight HillaryCare during the Clinton Administration
- After HillaryCare was defeated, the Clinton Administration decided to give a hard time to every health care group that had opposed them. They pushed for stricter interpretation of Medicare regulations which consisted of well over 100,000 pages.
- The Clintons targeted many health providers in addition to Rick Scott’s Columbia/HCA.(Forbes, 1998, Other companies fined)
Investigations took years.
- The 11th Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that the Clinton regulations were so ambiguous and complex that reasonable people could disagree on their application and, consequently, dismissed cases filed against HCA employees