When men don’t want sex

[masquerade]

Okay, after reading .... most of this colorful thread, I still don't know any man who isn't interested in sex. But, I do know a woman who thinks about it and wants it more often than her man does.

 

[High_Gravity]

Okay, after reading .... most of this colorful thread, I still don't know any man who isn't interested in sex. But, I do know a woman who thinks about it and wants it more often than her man does.

Wheres this marvelous woman?

 

[masquerade]

Okay, after reading .... most of this colorful thread, I still don't know any man who isn't interested in sex. But, I do know a woman who thinks about it and wants it more often than her man does.

Wheres this marvelous woman?

She's located in the northeast.

 

[High_Gravity]

Okay, after reading .... most of this colorful thread, I still don't know any man who isn't interested in sex. But, I do know a woman who thinks about it and wants it more often than her man does.

Wheres this marvelous woman?

She's located in the northeast.

Hmm, might have to meat her one of these days.

 

[Cecilie1200]

And furthermore, getting to make the decision doesn't mean that's he's stupid and arrogant enough to ignore any and all input from the woman, who he hopefully chose in part because she has a brain.

Gee, it's nice to see that someone actually does READ what I type on occasion; considering that I've said something to that effect in multiple posts over the last two days and it seems to be going in one eye and out the other for some people.

My husband DOES get that arrangement, and I can tell you he generally considers it more of a pain-in-the-ass chore than an ego-inflating power trip. I deal with the world outside my home and family primarily because hermithood just ain't practical, by and large, not because I have any real desire to. It is a tremendous relief to be able to say, "YOU handle it. I'm going to go make dinner", and then come back and find out that my husband has worked everything out and rearranged the world to take care of me.

You know, I don't think I could have said it any better myself, Cecilie. Anyone who thinks that being the individual who gets to make the decisions, make it all work, and sort it all out is a fun and pleasant chore has never had to do it.

Also, taking on the traditional male role means that he's responsible for funding the extravaganza that is our home and family. Sometimes, that has meant working 80 hours a week for him, in order to allow me to fulfill the belief we both hold that it is OUR job to raise our children, not some paid flunky. One of the reasons I have worked so hard on my fledgling event production business is because it's a way to help ease the financial burden on him without abandoning, in whole or in part, my traditional job as mother and housewife.

Sure, I sometimes feel like that plow horse that got mentioned earlier, scrambling between throwing laundry in the washer, emptying the dishwasher, making phone calls, writing ad copy, and hauling a two-year-old with one hand while toting a list of errands with the other. But it still beats HIS half of the deal, as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Anachronism]

I don't want to be crude but, if you have a reputation for being very skilled at orally pleasuring the ladies, you will get girls to come to you. Just sayin.

Sex is about at the BOTTOM of the list of things that have any importance to me when it comes to a relationship.

Ahhhh the old cliche .... it is better to have loved and lost, then never to have loved at all. So true.

I would tend to disagree. Never been a fan of that cliche, or the mentality it embraces.

Your beliefs in lack and limitation towards yourself and life, are being reflected. Can you see that? What you belief about life and about yourself, becomes true for you.

That's kind of a "Chicken & Egg" arguement, masque. Which came first? In my case, since the cause of a lot of this is a genetic birth defect, I'd say it's the limitations that came first before the attitude.

Or to look within to find changes that need to be made there.

As I said before, I have yet to be shown any convincing evidence that changing anything in my attitude, personality, or worldview would make any significant change in my life. I have never met anyone or anything worth changing for, and I kind of doubt at this point in my life that I will.

 

[Anachronism]

Okay, after reading .... most of this colorful thread, I still don't know any man who isn't interested in sex.

Then you missed at least one of my posts. For me sex is an absolute after-thought to the relationship. I don't believe casual sex is appropriate, nor am I a fan of PDA's. Never have been and likely never will be.

Also, taking on the traditional male role means that he's responsible for funding the extravaganza that is our home and family. Sometimes, that has meant working 80 hours a week for him, in order to allow me to fulfill the belief we both hold that it is OUR job to raise our children, not some paid flunky. One of the reasons I have worked so hard on my fledgling event production business is because it's a way to help ease the financial burden on him without abandoning, in whole or in part, my traditional job as mother and housewife.

Sure, I sometimes feel like that plow horse that got mentioned earlier, scrambling between throwing laundry in the washer, emptying the dishwasher, making phone calls, writing ad copy, and hauling a two-year-old with one hand while toting a list of errands with the other. But it still beats HIS half of the deal, as far as I'm concerned.

Gee, you mean you don't feel abused, enslaved, or completely degraded? You must really not know what's happening to you, Cecilie. I mean no self-respecting woman in the 20th/21st Century could EVER willingly choose that sort of lifestyle over being a jetsetting, nightlife loving individual who can't be chained down by any mere mortal man.

 

[masquerade]

Or to look within to find changes that need to be made there.

As I said before, I have yet to be shown any convincing evidence that changing anything in my attitude, personality, or worldview would make any significant change in my life. I have never met anyone or anything worth changing for, and I kind of doubt at this point in my life that I will.

I'm sorry. It's too bad you feel that way.
Y'know, you could go out on a limb and actually try it to see what happens. Just sayin'.

Good luck to you Anachronism.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Okay, after reading .... most of this colorful thread, I still don't know any man who isn't interested in sex.

Then you missed at least one of my posts. For me sex is an absolute after-thought to the relationship. I don't believe casual sex is appropriate, nor am I a fan of PDA's. Never have been and likely never will be.

Also, taking on the traditional male role means that he's responsible for funding the extravaganza that is our home and family. Sometimes, that has meant working 80 hours a week for him, in order to allow me to fulfill the belief we both hold that it is OUR job to raise our children, not some paid flunky. One of the reasons I have worked so hard on my fledgling event production business is because it's a way to help ease the financial burden on him without abandoning, in whole or in part, my traditional job as mother and housewife.

Sure, I sometimes feel like that plow horse that got mentioned earlier, scrambling between throwing laundry in the washer, emptying the dishwasher, making phone calls, writing ad copy, and hauling a two-year-old with one hand while toting a list of errands with the other. But it still beats HIS half of the deal, as far as I'm concerned.

Gee, you mean you don't feel abused, enslaved, or completely degraded? You must really not know what's happening to you, Cecilie. I mean no self-respecting woman in the 20th/21st Century could EVER willingly choose that sort of lifestyle over being a jetsetting, nightlife loving individual who can't be chained down by any mere mortal man.

I'm NOT chained down by a mere mortal man, for two reasons: the first is that my husband loves me and considers it part of his job as my husband and head of the household to facilitate and encourage my growth, accomplishment, and fulfillment as a person, just as I feel it my job as his wife to do the same for him, just as both of us feel it our job as their parents to do the same for our children. That's what family is supposed to be FOR.

The second reason is that there is nothing "mere mortal" about my husband.

Seriously, I have a bright, loving, often helpful and frequently infuriating 15-year-old and the cutest, most charismatic 2-year-old on the planet. If anyone wants to suggest that there could or should be anything in the world more important, meaningful, and rewarding that I could do with myself than help them develop into adults and provide a comfortable, nurturing fortress of safety for all of us, then I'm sorry, but I don't even comprehend the language that person is speaking.

 

[sitarro]

I guess the point is that women aren't very used to hearing a man say no and don't take the rejection very lightly.

You'd have to be pretty nasty, physically OR mentally, for me to turn down a quick romp.
No. I wouldn't fuck Loosely Lohand or Britney for the latter reason.

I don't believe you:

Even if I was jerking off 500X the norm, I could do Lindsey

Brittany would need to wear a wig:

Hey Samson....... is this the type of wig you want Britney to wear?




Or this one...........

 

[Anachronism]

I'm sorry. It's too bad you feel that way.
Y'know, you could go out on a limb and actually try it to see what happens. Just sayin'.

Good luck to you Anachronism.

Thank you for the kind words, masque.

Really, it's just what my experience in life has taught me. I can honestly say there's really one thing I've succeeded at over the years, and that's something I do almost totally by myself.... working out at the gym. I'm there generally five days a week and three of those five I'm by myself. The fourth I'm there with my personal trainer and the last day (Saturday) I'm there for a group class.

I'm really at a point where I've probably got one more attempt in me, masque. If whatever the next thing or person I open up to doesn't work out, it's probably over for good, so I really want to try and make sure it's the right person or thing before I blow it.

I'm NOT chained down by a mere mortal man, for two reasons: the first is that my husband loves me and considers it part of his job as my husband and head of the household to facilitate and encourage my growth, accomplishment, and fulfillment as a person, just as I feel it my job as his wife to do the same for him, just as both of us feel it our job as their parents to do the same for our children. That's what family is supposed to be FOR.

The second reason is that there is nothing "mere mortal" about my husband.

I think you know that was as close as I get to joking, Cecilie. Obviously you and I have a much more common viewpoint on this than most of the others do. It's not exactly the same, but it's relatively close anyway.

Seriously, I have a bright, loving, often helpful and frequently infuriating 15-year-old and the cutest, most charismatic 2-year-old on the planet. If anyone wants to suggest that there could or should be anything in the world more important, meaningful, and rewarding that I could do with myself than help them develop into adults and provide a comfortable, nurturing fortress of safety for all of us, then I'm sorry, but I don't even comprehend the language that person is speaking.

If we had more women like you in this country, I might actually think there was still some hope for the future generations of Americans.

 

[Anguille]

I'm sorry. It's too bad you feel that way.
Y'know, you could go out on a limb and actually try it to see what happens. Just sayin'.

Good luck to you Anachronism.

Thank you for the kind words, masque.

Really, it's just what my experience in life has taught me. I can honestly say there's really one thing I've succeeded at over the years, and that's something I do almost totally by myself.... working out at the gym. I'm there generally five days a week and three of those five I'm by myself. The fourth I'm there with my personal trainer and the last day (Saturday) I'm there for a group class.

I'm really at a point where I've probably got one more attempt in me, masque. If whatever the next thing or person I open up to doesn't work out, it's probably over for good, so I really want to try and make sure it's the right person or thing before I blow it.

I'm NOT chained down by a mere mortal man, for two reasons: the first is that my husband loves me and considers it part of his job as my husband and head of the household to facilitate and encourage my growth, accomplishment, and fulfillment as a person, just as I feel it my job as his wife to do the same for him, just as both of us feel it our job as their parents to do the same for our children. That's what family is supposed to be FOR.

The second reason is that there is nothing "mere mortal" about my husband.

I think you know that was as close as I get to joking, Cecilie. Obviously you and I have a much more common viewpoint on this than most of the others do. It's not exactly the same, but it's relatively close anyway.

Seriously, I have a bright, loving, often helpful and frequently infuriating 15-year-old and the cutest, most charismatic 2-year-old on the planet. If anyone wants to suggest that there could or should be anything in the world more important, meaningful, and rewarding that I could do with myself than help them develop into adults and provide a comfortable, nurturing fortress of safety for all of us, then I'm sorry, but I don't even comprehend the language that person is speaking.

If we had more women like you in this country, I might actually think there was still some hope for the future generations of Americans.

Wait till you get to know Cecilie better.

BTW Anach, I forgot to tell you are wrong about the definition of misogyny. Look it up in the dictionary.
If you've been telling women you're a traditional misogynist no wonder you don't get very far.

 

[Grace]

Well, the more I read, the more I dont think you are looking for a mate at all. You want a Little house On The Prairie woman what will pull the plow, feed the chickens, wash the clothes in the water trough outside, stable the horses, clean the stalls then run in at dinner time to make sure you have a nice hot meal she just made from scratch that she grew herself in your garden (I say you, because it sure wouldnt be hers from what Ive gathered so far), have a nice hot drawn bath she heated the water from the fireplace she stoked and make sure your pipe is stuffed with tobaccy and your slippers on your feet after giving them a good massage with Bagbalm that was used on the cows in the barn. And for those efforts, she doesnt get a kiss, a hug, told she is loved and appreciated. Its her job as your mate. And shes nothing more.

Good luck in your hunt, dude.

Aside from the "not getting a kiss or a hug" part of this (which I haven't seen even implied in Anachronism's posts, FYI), what do you think a mate IS, precisely?

Your other half. If you need more info on what that means, Im sorry to disappoint but continuing this is solving nothing. I wish Anachronism the best of luck, and I mean that sincerely.

 

[Grace]

Grace, I'm pretty sure you're a bright enough person to figure out which one gets to make the final decision in my mind. I'm not going to insult you by thinking that you don't. That's just one of the reasons why a relationship between someone like you and someone like me wouldn't work out very well.

Now, I'm a lot more open to her opinion on things of the nature that you're describing. At least in part because I have no fashion sense and couldn't care much less about furniture, curtains, carpet, and the like. However, there are going to be times in any relationship where there will be two disparate opinions and there needs to be a means for breaking that tie.... and I'm not a big believer in Compromise.



I will willingly admit that I've never tried the 50/50 thing. It's not something that I'm interested in. It's not how my parents relationship worked. It's definitely not how either of my sets of grandparents' relationships worked. It's not how my brother and sister-in-law's relationship works (her vows included.... With this ring I thee wed, with this body I thee worship, with all my worldly possessions I thee endow). It's not about how much energy each person puts in. I agree with your 100% comment there. It's about control and power. Who has the final say in things.

Control and power, or trust?
See, to my mind, where there is a total disagreement, SOMEBODY has to drive. I'm tired. Maybe lazy...but I do believe that in the ideal relationship, I would TRUST the man in my life not to abuse the last word. That is not to say I wouldn't have ANY words, but that I would trust him enough not to be an asshole about it if he were given that. Haven't been in that relationship yet. Should have held out for it from jump. But it should NOT be about control and power, but about trusting someone to drive, to give them the trust to have that final say on any given issue, and to really know that they would only and always have your best interests at heart, even if that meant giving up a little ground himself.

And furthermore, getting to make the decision doesn't mean that's he's stupid and arrogant enough to ignore any and all input from the woman, who he hopefully chose in part because she has a brain.

Huh???? Isnt that what I just said???

 

[Anachronism]

Wait till you get to know Cecilie better.

Actually, I've had the pleasure of several extended conversations with Cecilie, and find that she and I share more than a few ideas in common.

BTW Anach, I forgot to tell you are wrong about the definition of misogyny. Look it up in the dictionary. If you've been telling women you're a traditional misogynist no wonder you don't get very far.

Actually, when it comes to modern women, the definition fits perfectly well. Hatred would probably be a polite version of the emotions that I feel towards modern/feminits women. Now traditional women and ladies, that's another topic entirely.

 

[The Gadfly]

What I've been "paying forward" over the years has been exactly what I've gotten from most of society.... the worst parts of human nature and the blackest parts of the human heart.

You, kid (I am more than old enough to be your father, and yes, he and I served in the same place), are beginning to remind me more and more of myself when I came home and left the army. What that says about you, and me, is NOT a good thing. Now I don't look like you, but let's just say my tour didn't improve my appearance, and there's enough visible evidence for people to ask "You get that in 'Nam?", and the answer sometimes got followed up with, "Then you deserve it, __________!" (insert appropriate epithet). I didn't like that much; besides, being, among other things, so hyper-alert you have to tell everyone around you not to approach you from behind without announcing themselves, or touch you when you are not fully awake (because you will attack anyone who does), does not exactly make one attractive to women either. I reacted to all that just about like you; if people rejected me, than I rejected them; "Go ahead, hate me, I can hate too! It ain't fair! Screw the world; you don't like me, it's YOUR problem! Meet me on MY terms, or leave me the hell alone! I know the drill, I lived it, and now here you are for a different reason, doing the same damn thing! That little sentence of yours said it all; it sounds enough like me to be a direct quote.

You know what that got me? Exactly what it's gotten you, as far as I can tell-NOTHING! Well, except that you break up every relationship you start, you ask for help, but in the end, you push most of your friends away, and you put up one defensive wall after another. Nobody is going to get to you, no way. No one, is going to get a chance to hurt you, or insult you, ever again! You get some counseling, but change anything? Why? It's those other people who need to change, not you! THEY are the ones, that don't accept you, just the way you are! To hell with them; nothing in it for you, anyhow! I mean, who the hell out there has done YOU any favors, huh? Rejected, ejected, and kicked to the curb, all for something you can't help, and the best part is, it's not your fault!

Yeah, I did it too, right down to expecting someone to come along, understand, and get me out of this damn pit (never mind that I was digging it deeper) Oh, I need that magic person to come tear down MY walls! I need someone, to make ME happy. No one will do that-see, no one wants me, no one cares, and no one is going to care!

Keep it up; with the exception of a few of my own little personal touches (not really necessary, they just speed the process) you're well on the road to oblivion. Stay on it, and I think you know where it ends. The question is, do you have the intestinal fortitude, to get off it, before it's too late, or at least, too late to matter much? Well, DO YOU?

You think I'm being mean? I AM administering a kick in the butt, the one I wish to God someone had given ME! I needed one, and so do you! It would have saved me a lot of time, and a lot of wasted grief, and I hope it will do the same for you.

You have a choice, pure and simple, and just like anyone else, just like every so-called "normal" human being, you are going to have to make it. There is no special exemption for you, me, or anyone else who got handed a shit sandwich instead of a box of chocolates, and decided to take the slow boat to hell because of it. That's right, I said "decided", because by God, by what you've done to this point, that is what you did, that is what I did, and YOU OWN THAT PART, just like I did. You might have had a little help, but you did the rest. All that, by the way, does not make you gutless, or less of a man, or a sorry human being, but it does mean you quit, you settled and you're digging, instead of climbing. You know what I think? I think you're better than that. I think, you're more of a man, than that, and I think, that something inside you, knows that! Otherwise, you wouldn't be here asking.

You can't do any more with the outside of you, but you damn well CAN fix the inside, and you are going to have to. You are going to have to learn to trust. Everybody, "normal" or otherwise, has to do that, to find love, or happiness, or contentment, or anything else that makes life mean being alive, not just existing. You are not a special case. You are going to have to take a chance! You are even going to have to crawl out of the shell you put yourself in; the one you hide in, just like I had to. I have a sign on my wall, a picture of a turtle crawling along, with a caption "Behold the turtle; he makes progress, ONLY when his neck is out!" I keep that to remind me that life is taking chances, life is full of risk- and you don't get where you want to go, closed up in a shell snug, safe, and stationary.

You and I, whatever else we did or didn't get, got issued a life, one each, and one chance to get it right. USE IT, or LOSE IT! You're in a hurry? So is everyone else, but whether it's a month from now, or three years,or forty years, from now, if you don't fix your attitude, and your outlook, and focus on what you can do, and need to do, instead of what you want somebody to do for you, I will GUARANTEEyou will be right where you are. You will NOT get the girl, you will NOT get the prize, and you will have totally WASTED whatever chance at being happy you have. Of course, you won't get hurt, either. Now, on the other hand, if you work on yourself, and you're willing to take a chance, and willing to trust, well, you might get hurt, but you know what-that's the WORST that can happen, and you already know what that is, because you have already felt that, and dealt with that...and survived that-it is not going to kill you, or it already would have. What the hell do you think you have to lose?

That is the best I can do for you. Take it for what it's worth. Don't tell me what you CAN'T DO! I am not interested in the word "CAN'T"! "CAN"T" has no place in my life, not anymore; I learned that, way, way back, and if I hadn't forgotten that, I could have spared myself a LOT of pain. I've been farther down than you, and not all that much younger than you at the time. All the things I thought I could never have, again, I've had. I've had love (many times), I've been married (still am), had FIVE wonderful kids, and I've been successful beyond what I could have hoped for. Luck? I've had some, good and bad. Am I blessed? Yes, I am. And one night, years ago, I could have missed out on it all. I had to choose-die, or try to learn to live again. You know what I chose. If I can do it, SO CAN YOU!

 

[Grace]

I think you are awesome Gadfly. Kudos to you.

 

[Grace]

"You get that in 'Nam?", and the answer sometimes got followed up with, "Then you deserve it

Im so sorry that was said to you. To all who served in Nam. It makes me angry...but now it just makes me sad.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Well, the more I read, the more I dont think you are looking for a mate at all. You want a Little house On The Prairie woman what will pull the plow, feed the chickens, wash the clothes in the water trough outside, stable the horses, clean the stalls then run in at dinner time to make sure you have a nice hot meal she just made from scratch that she grew herself in your garden (I say you, because it sure wouldnt be hers from what Ive gathered so far), have a nice hot drawn bath she heated the water from the fireplace she stoked and make sure your pipe is stuffed with tobaccy and your slippers on your feet after giving them a good massage with Bagbalm that was used on the cows in the barn. And for those efforts, she doesnt get a kiss, a hug, told she is loved and appreciated. Its her job as your mate. And shes nothing more.

Good luck in your hunt, dude.

Aside from the "not getting a kiss or a hug" part of this (which I haven't seen even implied in Anachronism's posts, FYI), what do you think a mate IS, precisely?

Your other half. If you need more info on what that means, Im sorry to disappoint but continuing this is solving nothing. I wish Anachronism the best of luck, and I mean that sincerely.

Actually, yeah, I WOULD like some idea what this romantic claptrap is actually supposed to mean in real-world terms. It might be nice if marriage meant holding hands, gazing soulfully into each other's eyes in front of a sunset while doves fly over your head, but the reality is that the majority of the time, it means getting out of bed at 3 because one of the kids is puking, sorting the laundry according to which hamper the cat pissed in because someone left the door open by accident, and having to run out to the supermarket at the last minute because one of the ingredients for dinner somehow didn't make it into the grocery bag. In other words, mundane everyday LIFE.

What the hell is "your other half" supposed to mean?

 

[Anachronism]

You, kid (I am more than old enough to be your father, and yes, he and I served in the same place), are beginning to remind me more and more of myself when I came home and left the army. What that says about you, and me, is NOT a good thing. Now I don't look like you, but let's just say my tour didn't improve my appearance, and there's enough visible evidence for people to ask "You get that in 'Nam?", and the answer sometimes got followed up with, "Then you deserve it, __________!" (insert appropriate epithet). I didn't like that much; besides, being, among other things, so hyper-alert you have to tell everyone around you not to approach you from behind without announcing themselves, or touch you when you are not fully awake (because you will attack anyone who does), does not exactly make one attractive to women either. I reacted to all that just about like you; if people rejected me, than I rejected them; "Go ahead, hate me, I can hate too! It ain't fair! Screw the world; you don't like me, it's YOUR problem! Meet me on MY terms, or leave me the hell alone! I know the drill, I lived it, and now here you are for a different reason, doing the same damn thing! That little sentence of yours said it all; it sounds enough like me to be a direct quote.

First off, and I apologize for not stating this in the last post..... Thank you very much for your service to this country. Thank you for everything you gave to the service of this nation when it called upon you. I know you'll probably disagree with me, but every single one of you Vietnam Veterans is a hero in my book, and always will be.

It does sound like we've been down very similar roads for very different reasons, Gadfly.

You know what that got me? Exactly what it's gotten you, as far as I can tell-NOTHING! Well, except that you beak up every relationship you start, you ask for help, but in the end, you push most of your friends away, and you put up one defensive wall after another. Nobody is going to get to you, no way. No one, is going to get a chance to hurt you, or insult you, ever again! You get some counseling, but change anything? Why? It's those other people who need to change, not you! THEY are the ones, that don't accept you, just the way you are! To hell with them; nothing in it for you, anyhow! I mean, who the hell out there has done YOU any favors, huh? Rejected, ejected, and kicked to the curb, all for something you can't help, and the best part is, it's not your fault!

I can't speak for you obviously, but this life has gotten me a number of things over the years. It's gotten me a unique insight into other people.... Their reactions to seeing me for the first time. Their second reactions, immediately after that first moment. It's made me a much stronger and more self-reliant person. Someone who doesn't need to have a gaggle of friends and acquaintances around in order to survive. It's also brought me a very small core of good, solid, loyal friends who I would kill or die for.

No it hasn't been a lot of fun, and I could have typed that paragraph just as easily as you did. It's just the reality of the situation.

Yeah, I did it too, right down to expecting someone to come along, understand, and get me out of this damn pit (never mind that I was digging it deeper) Oh, I need that magic person to come tear down MY walls! I need someone, to make ME happy. No one will do that-see no one wants me, no one cares, and no one is going to care!

Yep. That's pretty much where I'm at and where I have been for about the last 20-25 years.

Keep it up; with the exception of a few of my own little personal touches (not really necessary, they just speed the process) you're well on the road to oblivion. Stay on it, and I think you know where it ends. The question is, do you have the intestinal fortitude, to get off it, before it's too late, or at least, too late to matter much? Well, DO YOU?

Oh, I passed Oblivion about 5 miles back, Gadfly. It's a cute little town and the waitress in the diner's got some nice milk jugs, if you catch my drift. It might have been a nice place to settle down, but it seemed a little crowded for my tastes.

You think I'm being mean? I AM administering a kick in the butt, the one I wish to God someone had given ME! I needed one, and so do you! It would have saved me a lot of time, and a lot of wasted grief, and I hope it will do the same for you.

No, I don't think you're being mean. I know exactly what you're doing, and I have to congratulate you on doing a very good job at it. Part of the problem is three letters you stuck into that paragraph.... "God". The Christian God and I parted company almost 10 years ago. In fact it'll be 10 years exactly on 8/22/2011 at 12:53 pm Eastern time.

You have a choice, pure and simple, and just like anyone else, just like every so-called "normal" human being, you are going to have to make it. There is no special exemption for you, me, or anyone else who got handed a shit sandwich instead of a box of chocolates, and decided to take the slow boat to hell because of it. That's right, I said "decided", because by God, by what you've done to this point, that is what you did, that is what I did, and YOU OWN THAT PART, just like I did. You might have had a little help, but you did the rest. All that, by the way, does not make you gutless, or less of a man, or a sorry human being, but it does mean you quit, you settled and you're digging, instead of climbing. You know what I think? I think you're better than that. I think, you're more of a man, than that, and I think, that something inside you, knows that! Otherwise, you wouldn't be here asking.

Again, we're 100% in agreement. If you're looking for an arguement from me on any of this, you're going to be sorely disappointed. Yes, I have "quit" on life. I did that a long time ago. Doesn't really matter why, or whose fault it is at this point.

There something/someone inside who would like to think I'm better than that. His/It's voice pokes its head up every once in a while and generally gets shouted down by the other voices (it's an analogy, no I don't really hear voices in my head). The problem is that every time we've listened to it over the years, things turn out less than wonderfully....

In general this is how it goes..... I find something I like/enjoy. I find out I might even have a modecrum of success or fun at it. I take it as far as whatever minimal amount of natural ability will get me. I invest a bunch of time and energy and money into it. Then, due to my lack of patience and unrealistic expectations for level and speed of success, I end up getting pissed off when I don't meet those expectations and I end up quitting or at least seriously reducing my level of participation in whatever the activity is. That is really about the story of my life, repeated time and again, in a single paragraph.

You can't do any more with the outside of you, but you damn well CAN fix the inside, and you are going to have to. You are going to have to learn to trust. Everybody, "normal" or otherwise, has to do that, to find love, or happiness, or contentment, or anything else that makes life mean being alive, not just existing. You are not a special case. You are going to have to take a chance! You are even going to have to crawl out of the shell you put yourself in; the one you hide in, just like I had to. I have a sign on my wall, a picture of a turtle crawling along, with a caption "Behold the turtle; he makes progress, ONLY when his neck is out!" I keep that to remind me that life is taking chances, life is full of risk- and you don't get where you want to go, closed up in a shell snug, safe, and stationary.

Trust and Faith are things that do not come easily to me, Gadfly. They haven't for a lot of years. Friendship, sure, Faith and Trust, uh uh. Very tough to build with me and very easy to lose.

Part of the issue with love, happiness, joy, etc... is that I've literally built a world for myself where those things don't have much of any meaning. They aren't the point of life, so far as I am concerned. That makes it much more difficult to buy into a philosophy that says one should be sticking one's neck out in order to find them.

I think I made the Whack-A-Mole analogy earlier in the thread. That's really the way I feel most of the time... like the moment I stick my head out it's going to get smacked with a stick, or cut clean off. As you well know, it's much easier to stay in that safe hole than to stick one's head up.

Another part of the issue is that I really don't have much of a physical support base right now. You folks here online have been very kind and helpful, but there really isn't much of anyone in my immediate real-life who is any level of support. There are a few people, but they're not in this area, so short of phone calls and emails there's not much they can do; and I'm the sort of person who really does need that type of support a lot of the time when trying new and potentially frustrating/annoying things in my life. I don't work well without a safety net and right now I don't have one.

You and I, whatever else we did or didn't get, got issued a life, one each, and one chance to get it right. USE IT, or LOSE IT! You're in a hurry? So is everyone else, but whether it's a month from now, or three years,or forty years, from now, if you don't fix your attitude, and your outlook, and focus on what you can do, and need to do, instead of what you want somebody to do for you, I will GUARANTEE you will be right where you are. You will NOT get the girl, you will NOT get the prize, and you will have totally WASTED whatever chance at being happy you have. Of course, you won't get hurt, either. Now, on the other hand, if you work on yourself, and you're willing to take a chance, and willing to trust, well, you might get hurt, but you know what-that's the WORST that can happen, and you already know what that is, because you have already felt that, and dealt with that...and survived that-it is not going to kill you, or it already would have. What the hell do you think you have to lose?

All totally true and 100% correct, Gadfly. What I have to lose is the small amount of my personal self-esteem and sanity I actually have left. I also have to consider my temper issues. They're different but similar to what you described above. I tend to react poorly when things don't go my way. I also tend to act violently. Thankfully in general it's directed against inanimate objects, but I fear that someday I could slip. It's something I've been working on and gotten more under control in the last 6 months, but I won't say it's cured by any means.

That is the best I can do for you. Take it for what it's worth. Don't tell me what you CAN'T DO! I am not interested in the word "CAN'T"! "CAN"T" has no place in my life, not anymore; I learned that, way, way back, and if I hadn't forgotten that, I could have spared myself a LOT of pain. I've been farther down than you, and not all that much younger than you at the time. All the things I thought I could never have, again, I've had. I've had love (many times), I've been married (still am), had FIVE wonderful kids, and I've been successful beyond what I could have hoped for. Luck? I've had some, good and bad. Am I blessed? Yes, I am. And one night, years ago, I could have missed out on it all. I had to choose-die, or try to learn to live again. You know what I chose. If I can do it, SO CAN YOU!

I don't believe I've used the word "Can't" anywhere in this reply.

Congratulations on what you've accomplished. You obviously worked hard for it and deserve it.

I've had that night myself. If someone else hadn't walked into the room while I had the gun in my hands you and I would have never met (even virtually). I still wonder some days if that wouldn't have been the better option.

Honestly, I would love to change my life. I just don't know how, and I'm not sure that I have the support structure around me to make it work. I sure as hell know I'm not strong enough to do it on my own. It's like moving a pile of rocks... which one do you move first to do it the most efficient way possible without having the entire pile end up on your head?