What, then, does Judaism teach about Satan?

[hobelim]

Now to address your description of the drinking mushroom taking sexual party animal Christ not being Egyptian influenced, that's because the Egyptian influenced Christ Rome took favor to

You do realize that the only branch of Jewish thought and belief that was favored by Rome and allowed to exist at all is yours. don't you? The same generation of thought, belief and practice based on the traditions of men, the talmud, that Jesus disputed with and predicted would survive to see everything he said come true from the siege of Jerusalem to the destruction of the Temple, diaspora, etc., including his eventual return.

NO

If you all are going to deride Christianity for being some perversion of Rome, I wouldn't be bragging about a branch of Judaism that was favored by Rome.

what branch is that----to wit----which branch of Judaism is favored by rome -----and when?

You don't already know?

its the branch that has elevated the oral law above the deeper implications of the written law rendering it null and void. Why would Rome object?

When Jesus was declared to be a three in one edible mangod and Rome set about conquering the world under the banner of the cross, a symbol of torture and death, this branch which evolved into rabbinic Judaism was allowed to persist.

If it wasn't allowed to persist it would have been wiped out as efficiently and thoroughly as the essenes were and your talmud would have been as torn up and thrown around and unknown as the documents on floors of the caves at the dead sea that were torn up into little pieces, scattered, unknown and lost to time for the past 2000 years.

 

[irosie91]

Now to address your description of the drinking mushroom taking sexual party animal Christ not being Egyptian influenced, that's because the Egyptian influenced Christ Rome took favor to

You do realize that the only branch of Jewish thought and belief that was favored by Rome and allowed to exist at all is yours. don't you? The same generation of thought, belief and practice based on the traditions of men, the talmud, that Jesus disputed with and predicted would survive to see everything he said come true from the siege of Jerusalem to the destruction of the Temple, diaspora, etc., including his eventual return.

NO

If you all are going to deride Christianity for being some perversion of Rome, I wouldn't be bragging about a branch of Judaism that was favored by Rome.

what branch is that----to wit----which branch of Judaism is favored by rome -----and when?

You don't already know?

its the branch that has elevated the oral law above the deeper implications of the written law rendering it null and void. Why would Rome object?

When Jesus was declared to be a three in one edible mangod and Rome set about conquering the world under the banner of the cross, a symbol of torture and death, this branch which evolved into rabbinic Judaism was allowed to persist.

If it wasn't allowed to persist it would have been wiped out as efficiently and thoroughly as the essenes were and your talmud would have been as torn up and thrown around and unknown as the documents on floors of the caves at the dead sea that were torn up into little pieces, scattered, unknown and lost to time for the past 2000 years.

your have STILL not named the "group" that ROME so supported. The ESSENES were "wiped out"??------you got a date for that battle?. The documents which are the dead sea scrolls contain no particular "lost stuff" -------generally just copies of known stuff and----related writings. They were not particularly TORN UP-----they
fragmented over 2000 years-----they were not GATHERED UP AS A BUNCH OF CRUMBS----they were found sorta bound-----in scrolls ---having been placed in jars------unwinding them was the fragment issue. You actually believe that the arab who found them ----SWEPT UP A PILE OF CRUMBS FROM A CAVE FLOOR?

 

[HaShev]

Quote:>>including his eventual (HaShev) return.

Yeshu son of Mary was a Pharisee which is why he had to flee the Jannaeus persecution of the Pharisee during the revolt.
Rome wrote poorly of the Pharisee.
I can't see how you say they favor the Hasidim. They worked with the Temple priests only in the Roman accts as to displace or share blame, but is it true, since there is no cooperation with Rome against the other christs and no Herod killing babies story, because Rome concocted lie after lie. They can not be trusted as a source.

 

[irosie91]

Quote:>>including his eventual (HaShev) return.

Yeshu son of Mary was a Pharisee which is why he had to flee the Jannaeus persecution of the Pharisee during the revolt.
Rome wrote poorly of the Pharisee.
I can't see how you say they favor the Hasidim. They worked with the Temple priests only in the Roman accts as to displace or share blame, but is it true, since there is no cooperation with Rome against the other christs and no Herod killing babies story, because Rome concocted lie after lie. They can not be trusted as a source.

shev-----do you think HOBE is claiming that the ROMANS FAVORED THE PHARISEES? As to the ESSENES------to me they seem to be---not entirely
a DIFFERENT SECT of Judaism as are the Sadducees------but just people who
are generally PHARISEE in outlook with a little twist-----sorta like comparing the
SATMAR ----vs the LUBAVITCH------both subsets of rabbinic Judaism

 

[irosie91]

Also -----shev-----would you comment on Hobe's ----apparent assertion that the Pharisees "nullified" the written law?

 

[hobelim]

-they were not GATHERED UP AS A BUNCH OF CRUMBS----they were found sorta bound-----in scrolls ---having been placed in jars------unwinding them was the fragment issue. You actually believe that the arab who found them ----SWEPT UP A PILE OF CRUMBS FROM A CAVE FLOOR?

there were a vast number of fragments found scattered on the floor of some of the caves as if they were deliberately and angrily shredded. Some caves and scrolls were never found. Those are the ones that remained rolled up and mostly intact.

 

[hobelim]

Yeshu son of Mary was a Pharisee which is why he had to flee the Jannaeus persecution of the Pharisee during the revolt.
Rome wrote poorly of the Pharisee.
I can't see how you say they favor the Hasidim. They worked with the Temple priests only in the Roman accts as to displace or share blame, but is it true, since there is no cooperation with Rome against the other christs and no Herod killing babies story, because Rome concocted lie after lie. They can not be trusted as a source.

If they can't be trusted as a source neither can the the entire Talmud, the oral law, which was put to paper and redacted in what year? Pssst! 350 c.e.

And its not like they favored anyone except those whose beliefs and practices kept everyone blind.

And the gospels were not written after 325 c.e.. they were written hundreds of years earlier during and immediately after brutal Roman oppression.

In 325 c.e. is when Rome decided, if you can't beat them assimilate them, but the stories were written by Jews in figurative language that the superstitious and irrational enemy could never comprehend and so was born the mangod that you correctly revile, a phantom that does not correspond to any real living being ever in existence.

If they ever even had an inkling that the Jesus who actually existed was advocating civil disobedience when he said give unto Caesar the things of Caesar, the original fake mangod, they would have torn up the gospels too.

 

[irosie91]

-they were not GATHERED UP AS A BUNCH OF CRUMBS----they were found sorta bound-----in scrolls ---having been placed in jars------unwinding them was the fragment issue. You actually believe that the arab who found them ----SWEPT UP A PILE OF CRUMBS FROM A CAVE FLOOR?

there were a vast number of fragments found scattered on the floor of some of the caves as if they were deliberately and angrily shredded. Some caves and scrolls were never found. Those are the ones that remained rolled up and mostly intact.

ROFLMAO -----scrolls 2000 years old in caves --FRAGMENTED-----likely did not end up that way as a WILLFULL act anymore than a silver spoon in a kitchen gets WILLFULLY tarnished------your comment is hilarious. What does "some caves and scrolls were never found" mean? ---------someone had them recorded in the library of Alexandria-----saved from the CONFLAGRATIONS? You got the DEWEY DECIMAL codes on the LOST SCROLLS?------how about the coordinates of the LOST CAVES? Did you figure out which FORM OF JUDAISM --the romans favored yet?----its "sect" name ?? Was it the Satmar Chassidim of
Brooklyn, NY?

 

[hobelim]

-they were not GATHERED UP AS A BUNCH OF CRUMBS----they were found sorta bound-----in scrolls ---having been placed in jars------unwinding them was the fragment issue. You actually believe that the arab who found them ----SWEPT UP A PILE OF CRUMBS FROM A CAVE FLOOR?

there were a vast number of fragments found scattered on the floor of some of the caves as if they were deliberately and angrily shredded. Some caves and scrolls were never found. Those are the ones that remained rolled up and mostly intact.

ROFLMAO -----scrolls 2000 years old in caves --FRAGMENTED-----likely did not end up that way as a WILLFULL act anymore than a silver spoon in a kitchen gets WILLFULLY tarnished------your comment is hilarious. What does "some caves and scrolls were never found" mean? ---------someone had them recorded in the library of Alexandria-----saved from the CONFLAGRATIONS? You got the DEWEY DECIMAL codes on the LOST SCROLLS?------how about the coordinates of the LOST CAVES? Did you figure out which FORM OF JUDAISM --the romans favored yet?----its "sect" name ?? Was it the Satmar Chassidim of
Brooklyn, NY?

Settle down sweetie.

If the scrolls that were not found until 1947 had just disintegrated over time into millions of fragments of little pieces left on the floors why were the scrolls left in undisturbed caves and still in jars remain in such good condition?

If the fragments found on the floor weren't deliberately torn up how did they get out of their jars and end up on the floor in tiny pieces? Why do the edges of the fragments match up so well if the fragmentation was the result of disintegration?


That would be some miraculous unintentional tarnishing going on there.

 

[HaShev]

I don't think you can bring up the Talmud in this case.
1) Because historical accts come from other sources before that century.
2) Because Talmud recorded accounts of it's Rabbis are highly meticulous & thus accurate.
3)the NT itself mentions the widows mite a Jannaeus Alexander coin.
4)The NT states Salome is a friend and follower of the figure and this is Jannaeus' wife who was the same, even reinstating Shimon as head priest mirroring your Shimon Peter appointment.
5)Christianity was not yet known to the writers of the Talmud, nor was Jesus image yet created as even you admit was done later by the Roman church.

Usually people rant on the Talmud in order to smokescreen & divert attention from the real issue.
Yet it's a good source for historical dating and rarely a sole source of evidence in making any point.

 

[HaShev]

There were 2 Pharisees;
the description type, and the group type.
And contrary to beliefs, the group type most had other jobs to live off of because they did not make money off their Rabbincal pursuits.

Who Rome favored, anyone that would obey and get them their cut of the action.
Pharisee had no action, so I doubt they were popular woth the Rome elect, hence frowned upon in the NT.

 

[hobelim]

I don't think you can bring up the Talmud in this case.
1) Because historical accts come from other sources before that century.
2) Because Talmud recorded accounts of it's Rabbis are highly meticulous & thus accurate.
3)the NT itself mentions the widows mite a Jannaeus Alexander coin.
4)The NT states Salome is a friend and follower of the figure and this is Jannaeus' wife who was the same, even reinstating Shimon as head priest mirroring your Shimon Peter appointment.
5)Christianity was not yet known to the writers of the Talmud, nor was Jesus image yet created as even you admit was done later by the Roman church.

Usually people rant on the Talmud in order to smokescreen & divert attention from the real issue.
Yet it's a good source for historical dating and rarely a sole source of evidence in making any point.

Christianity was hundreds of years old by the time the Talmud was written down and redacted in 350 c.e. during the height of Roman rule.

The Gospels were written hundreds of years before the romans ever got their superstitious hands on them.

However dedicated and meticulous the writers were the fact remains that from its inception the Talmud was redacted.

 

[HaShev]

The Talmud was written at the time the NT was still being written or just after. The region did not yet know the fables of Jesus.
Because of the Talmuds accuracy of recording history of the Rabbis while the NT is extremely problematic, you'd be hitting yourself with your own flailing hand again.

Anyone heard of or have info on the Piso family theory, regarding them being the writers of the NT. The church already admits the books are written by people other then the one's they are attributed to, this Piso theory just pinpoints which people wrote what and what time period, and from what source. The central source I brought up before being called "Q".
(Quelle?=source).
The central source could have been written as a play, thus using the bel passion play to create the devine figure from. Then the play is used by charlatans as a religion to get rich off of like scientology.
Remember I always say look at similar emulated incidences to get an idea of how these things come about, because history repeats you'll be able to see how a bel scam can take off and thrive even in the silliest outragest fabled stories being told.

Source; for Bel Passion play being used for the story of Jesus.
now sitting in the British
Museum a predated tablet in which the Babylonian myth of Bel (Baal in
Hebrew) is described in a passion play in which:
(1) Bel is taken prisoner;
(2) Bel is tried in a great hall;
(3) Bel is smitten;
(4) Bel is led away to the Mount (a sacred grove on a
hilltop);
(5) with Bel are taken two malefactors, one of whom is
released;
(6) After Bel has gone to the Mount and is executed,
the city breaks into tumult;
(7) Bel's clothes are carried away;
(8.) Bel goes down into the Mount and disappears from
life;
(9) weeping women seek Bel at the Tomb;
(10) Bel is brought back to life.

 

[hobelim]

The Talmud was written at the time the NT was still being written or just after. The region did not yet know the fables of Jesus.

No, you are wrong. The Q source was assembled in the 40's or 50's. All of the canonical Gospels were written before the end of the first century.

The Talmud was first written down and redacted in the year 350.c.e. under the watchful eye of your Roman oppressors, years after Christianity was already firmly established as the state religion. How then can you say that Christianity was unknown?


The point being if the reasons that you gave for saying the Gospels cannot be trusted as a source are valid reasons for dismissing them, then your own Talmud cannot be trusted as a source and should be dismissed for the exact same and even more reasons.

 

[HaShev]

Talmud is written form circa 200ce, but was called the Traditions of the Elders before that. Of course THEY existed AS Oral traditions and stories, but also some written apochryphas and commentaries existed already.
They say Mishna 200ce, but some experts will even tell you 150ce. Of course it existed in oral traditions before this.
The NT- 70ce was still being written into 150ce.
The Talmud was written by Pharisee, so why would they make the insignificant character
who wasn't yet known in the Tiberias region? WHY would they place a character 100 years prior for no reason and break a command, make him a Pharisee, then make themselves look the villain in sentencing him on a high holiday?? You are not thinking, you are merely using an ad hominem (smokescreen).
A number 1 excuse, smokescreen, and advoidence for Christians is saying the word "Talmud", through demonizing the text they hope to avoid or confuse and lie to the unsuspected in order to avoid the historical innacuracies and compilations of the NT and it's fabled character renamed Jesus.
In doing this they are willing to throw their own text and accts validity under the bus= checkmate, because to win their own made up argument they create, they have to lose the overall argument and king in the process.

So tell us Mr. Innacuracies, how does your Jesus live in the time of Lysanias and King Herod when Herod died in 4bc and Lysanias in 35bc according to historical accts not Talmud? Moving his birthdate back 6yrs to try and fool people on Herod still doesn't explain the miss on Lysanias or the 7bc census.-Oops!
Then tell us how early church elect like
Epiphanius mention Jesus grandfather being Pantheras which is not A Talmudic source?

Philosopher Celsus (178 CE) Christian writer Epiphanius (c.320-403 CE), the Christian apologist Origen (c.185-254 CE) are not Talmud sources.
Josephus accts of the other christs also mentioned in the book of acts, are not Talmud. In fact the NT switches the sequence of those christ's death eras, saying Theudas (45ad) died before Yehuda(6bc).
BRILLIANT!

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

This is an interesting story. What do you believe the Jewish man was looking at? Personally, I believe what he saw was a demon inside the man. If demons exist then we know that Satan exists too. Read the following and see if you can explain what the Jewish man was describing:

'I Saw the Devil Inside Him'

The owner of the vehicle that was attacked phoned the Binyamin Police and filed a police complaint. Policemen who arrived on the scene examined the damage to the car and took testimony from the witnesses. They promised that the IDF would try to locate the attacker.

"We are in mortal danger on the roads," said Avrhamai. "I saw the devil inside the Palestinian upon his face. His aim was to kill. I was surprised at his daring and the murderousness in his eyes."

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

I don't think you can bring up the Talmud in this case.
1) Because historical accts come from other sources before that century.
2) Because Talmud recorded accounts of it's Rabbis are highly meticulous & thus accurate.
3)the NT itself mentions the widows mite a Jannaeus Alexander coin.
4)The NT states Salome is a friend and follower of the figure and this is Jannaeus' wife who was the same, even reinstating Shimon as head priest mirroring your Shimon Peter appointment.
5)Christianity was not yet known to the writers of the Talmud, nor was Jesus image yet created as even you admit was done later by the Roman church.

Usually people rant on the Talmud in order to smokescreen & divert attention from the real issue.
Yet it's a good source for historical dating and rarely a sole source of evidence in making any point.

Christianity was hundreds of years old by the time the Talmud was written down and redacted in 350 c.e. during the height of Roman rule.

The Gospels were written hundreds of years before the romans ever got their superstitious hands on them.

However dedicated and meticulous the writers were the fact remains that from its inception the Talmud was redacted.

The Talmud is not scripture. The Gospels were recorded and preserved (in what was later put into print as the King James Holy Bible) in spite of every effort the Romans made to hunt down the believers in Jesus Christ, seize all copies and pervert the truth. The early Believers were not Roman Catholics. They were hunted down and put to death by the early Roman Catholics. Which is why the early Believers met in secret - to avoid them at all costs.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

I don't think you can bring up the Talmud in this case.
1) Because historical accts come from other sources before that century.
2) Because Talmud recorded accounts of it's Rabbis are highly meticulous & thus accurate.
3)the NT itself mentions the widows mite a Jannaeus Alexander coin.
4)The NT states Salome is a friend and follower of the figure and this is Jannaeus' wife who was the same, even reinstating Shimon as head priest mirroring your Shimon Peter appointment.
5)Christianity was not yet known to the writers of the Talmud, nor was Jesus image yet created as even you admit was done later by the Roman church.

Usually people rant on the Talmud in order to smokescreen & divert attention from the real issue.
Yet it's a good source for historical dating and rarely a sole source of evidence in making any point.

The Torah / Tanach is called (by Believers) The Old Testament part of the King James Holy Bible. The Talmud was written by men later on and is not scripture (the inspired Word of God). With that in mind, HaShev, let me ask you a question. If the Torah / Tanach (or Old Testament as called by Believers) conflicts with the teachings of the Talmud - which should be believed? The Scriptures which is the Divine Word of G-d or the Talmud which is nothing more than the teachings of men? Do you believe we should believe the Word of God or men who attempted to "add to (or take away from) the Word of God" and wrote their own book?

What would Moses tell you?

 

[Campbell]

Always wondered were Christians got the physical satan stuff and his hell, never came from Judaism

If God is all there can not be anything out side off a God


The Hebrew word "Satan" means "Hinderer." To hinder someone means to hold him back, to try to prevent him from doing something. G-d created the Hinderer to give us work to do in this world (see my article Why did G-d Create the World?). Satan is here to make things difficult for us, so we can overcome our evil temptations, and PASS the test. That is the purpose of Satan. Satan is an angel whose purpose has been determined by G-d.

Temptation is there to try and deter us. It gives us the ability to do the wrong thing. More importantly, it gives us the ability to look at evil and refuse to do it. By presenting us with the opportunity to do evil, it gives us the ability to choose between good and evil.

Satan is not, as the Christians think, a rebellious angel. How impossible! The angels are spiritual and holy, without any physical or unholy presence, and the presence of Hashem's holiness permeates them entirely. Angels, unlike humans, are therefore constantly and fully aware of Hashem's Presence everywhere. Could you stay dry in the ocean? An angel could not stop being holy, and can do no wrong. There is holiness everywhere in Creation, everywhere in the universe, and angels are made of the same thing. An angel could not stop serving G-d even if he tried.

Furthermore, humans have Satan to tempt us. Angels have no Satan to tempt them. Who would be Satan's Satan? An ultra-Satan?

The truth is that Satan has a job to do, just like every other angel. And angels have no free will. They do as Hashem commands them.

A man once came to a great Rabbi, very troubled. He said to the Rabbi, "Please pray to Hashem to take away my Evil Inclination. I do so many sins, and I want to stop sinning!"

The Rabbi answered, "Then what would be your purpose in this world, if you had no Evil Inclination? Your purpose in life is to overcome your personal Evil Inclination. That is what you were created for! Hashem has enough angels in heaven. He doesn't need one more. He created you human, so that you could improve yourself."

Does Judaism Believe in Satan?

Satan...?? You actually believe there's an eternal keeper of the fires?

 

[Indeependent]

The Talmud consists of the discussions concerning the philosophical and legislative statements of the Mishnah.
The word Mishnah means "repetition" and is simply the non-Written explanation given to Moses on Mount Sinai.
It is IMPOSSIBLE to follow ANY laws via the Written Torah.
The Talmud was rarely written down prior to the Printing Press.