What must Israel do to "end the occupation"? (solutions thread)

[Shusha]

End the occupation of '67 land.

Equal rights for Palestinian citizens of Israel.

Right of the Palestinians to return to their homes and properties.

Oh come on! What does this mean?! Be specific.

"End the occupation of '67 land" means what, exactly? That the 1949 Armistice lines become international borders (contrary to international treaties (ie law) and UN resolutions)? That negotiation for final status is no longer a possibility? That all Jewish people are removed from those territories? That people can remain in those territories, but must renounce Israeli citizenship and become Palestinian? That residents of that territory become dual citizens? Or retain their existing citizenship but just become residents of Palestine? That the Old City of Jerusalem and the Temple Mount comes under Palestinian authority? That Jordan renounces its claim? That Israel continues to be attacked by those who want ALL the territory? What? What?

"Equal rights for Palestinian citizens of Israel" means what, exactly? What changes would you make to address this? What "inequalities", specifically, would you address.

"Rights of the Palestinians to return to their homes and properties" means what, exactly? Which Palestinians? Which properties? With what proof? What if the home no longer exists? What if it does and other people live there? What if the people who live there are other Palestinians? Are you going to fit generations of people into one house? What about nomadic peoples? What about the Jewish people who were uprooted, should they have the right of return to their homes and properties as well?


Come on! Practical, concrete solutions.

 

[P F Tinmore]

"End the occupation of '67 land" means what, exactly? That the 1949 Armistice lines become international borders (contrary to international treaties (ie law) and UN resolutions)?

That is true. There are no '67 borders. The armistice lines were specifically not to be political or territorial borders. Israel should withdraw to its 1948 borders.

 

[Hollie]

"End the occupation of '67 land" means what, exactly? That the 1949 Armistice lines become international borders (contrary to international treaties (ie law) and UN resolutions)?

That is true. There are no '67 borders. The armistice lines were specifically not to be political or territorial borders. Israel should withdraw to its 1948 borders.

There is no reason to believe that Israel should give up its land to Arab thieves and squatters.

 

[Challenger]

Since there is no likely Pali Leadership to emerge here.

True. The west tried to hold free and fair elections to let the Palestinian people decide who they wanted to lead them under international supervision. These elections were internationally recognised to have been both free and fair but the only problem was that the Zionists didn't get the result they wanted; Fatah lost, Hamas won. Fatah was then told to engineer a coup (which would have failed had the Zionists not stepped in). Now we have Hamas and Fatah at each other's throats; a result the Zionists can live with as there's no-one they need "negotiate" with, but then the Zionists have never wanted to negotiate anything, peace means they won't be able to expand any more and might actually be forced to give up some land.

 

[Challenger]

"End the occupation of '67 land" means what, exactly? That the 1949 Armistice lines become international borders (contrary to international treaties (ie law) and UN resolutions)?

That is true. There are no '67 borders. The armistice lines were specifically not to be political or territorial borders. Israel should withdraw to its 1948 borders.

It's April 30th 1948 borders.

 

[Kondor3]

What must Israel do to end the occupation?

Remove the occupiers (Muslim-Arabs of Gaza and the West Bank) and deposit them on the East Side of the Jordan where they belong.

In Arab Palestine... a.k.a. Jordan.

Beyond the borders of Eretz Yisrael.

With gentleness and financial compensation and aid if they'll go peaceably.

With overwhelming deadly force and lightning speed if they will not.

 

[montelatici]

What must Israel do to end the occupation?

Remove the occupiers (Muslim-Arabs of Gaza and the West Bank) and deposit them on the East Side of the Jordan where they belong.

In Arab Palestine... a.k.a. Jordan.

Beyond the borders of Eretz Yisrael.

With gentleness and financial compensation and aid if they'll go peaceably.

With overwhelming deadly force and lightning speed if they will not.

The occupiers came from Europe you moron.

 

[flacaltenn]

Since there is no likely Pali Leadership to emerge here.

True. The west tried to hold free and fair elections to let the Palestinian people decide who they wanted to lead them under international supervision. These elections were internationally recognised to have been both free and fair but the only problem was that the Zionists didn't get the result they wanted; Fatah lost, Hamas won. Fatah was then told to engineer a coup (which would have failed had the Zionists not stepped in). Now we have Hamas and Fatah at each other's throats; a result the Zionists can live with as there's no-one they need "negotiate" with, but then the Zionists have never wanted to negotiate anything, peace means they won't be able to expand any more and might actually be forced to give up some land.

Not interested in how Fatah goes to Civil War on the instructions of their "Zionist masters"..

Fact is -- the ONLY HOPE for a sovereign Palestine is if it's done FOR THEM and held in trust until they get their act together and decide that the FUTURE is more important to their kids than the past...

 

[Hollie]

What must Israel do to end the occupation?

Remove the occupiers (Muslim-Arabs of Gaza and the West Bank) and deposit them on the East Side of the Jordan where they belong.

In Arab Palestine... a.k.a. Jordan.

Beyond the borders of Eretz Yisrael.

With gentleness and financial compensation and aid if they'll go peaceably.

With overwhelming deadly force and lightning speed if they will not.

The occupiers came from Europe you moron.

The Jewish people were encouraged to immigrate to the area of Pal'istan to re-establish the Jewish National Home.

The European xtian Crusader colonists on the other hand....

 

[louie888]

I intend this thread to be a "solutions" thread like those on the one, two and no more state solutions threads. For those not familiar with those threads -- the intent is not to re-hash the same old, same old, but to provide detailed, concrete suggestions for solving the conflict and moving forward.

The common refrain from the Palestinian side is that Israel must "end the occupation". What does that mean in concrete terms? What specific steps (military, practical, economic, political, legal) should Israel take? Do you think this should be done step-by-step or all at once? What measurable conditions will count the occupation ended?

Please be as specific as possible. For example, "end the blockade of Gaza" is too vague.

Be prepared to defend your proposals and explain why they are practical and will lead to an end of conflict agreement.

Another Shusha thread... another fail, go figure.

All your crazy straw man arguments aside, What must Israel do to "end the occupation" you ask? I have handed this to you on a silver platter on multiple threads, but you just start a nerw thread and pretend everything is too complex for you.

Again now, the zionists need to get the hell out of there. They need to let the Palestinians and their elected leaders decide from there. The ones who can live in peace should be allowed to remain, and those who cannot live in peace there should find somewhere were they can... if that is possible for these racist psychopaths.

 

[Challenger]

Since there is no likely Pali Leadership to emerge here.

True. The west tried to hold free and fair elections to let the Palestinian people decide who they wanted to lead them under international supervision. These elections were internationally recognised to have been both free and fair but the only problem was that the Zionists didn't get the result they wanted; Fatah lost, Hamas won. Fatah was then told to engineer a coup (which would have failed had the Zionists not stepped in). Now we have Hamas and Fatah at each other's throats; a result the Zionists can live with as there's no-one they need "negotiate" with, but then the Zionists have never wanted to negotiate anything, peace means they won't be able to expand any more and might actually be forced to give up some land.

Not interested in how Fatah goes to Civil War on the instructions of their "Zionist masters"..

Fact is -- the ONLY HOPE for a sovereign Palestine is if it's done FOR THEM and held in trust until they get their act together and decide that the FUTURE is more important to their kids than the past...

Who is going to do "the doing for them" and the "holding in trust"? Do the Palestinians get a say in deciding that? Once upon a time, what you are suggesting was called a "Mandate". The opinions of the Palestinians were ignored then as well and my, didn't that work out well for everyone?

 

[Hollie]

I intend this thread to be a "solutions" thread like those on the one, two and no more state solutions threads. For those not familiar with those threads -- the intent is not to re-hash the same old, same old, but to provide detailed, concrete suggestions for solving the conflict and moving forward.

The common refrain from the Palestinian side is that Israel must "end the occupation". What does that mean in concrete terms? What specific steps (military, practical, economic, political, legal) should Israel take? Do you think this should be done step-by-step or all at once? What measurable conditions will count the occupation ended?

Please be as specific as possible. For example, "end the blockade of Gaza" is too vague.

Be prepared to defend your proposals and explain why they are practical and will lead to an end of conflict agreement.

Another Shusha thread... another fail, go figure.

All your crazy straw man arguments aside, What must Israel do to "end the occupation" you ask? I have handed this to you on a silver platter on multiple threads, but you just start a nerw thread and pretend everything is too complex for you.

Again now, the zionists need to get the hell out of there. They need to let the Palestinians and their elected leaders decide from there. The ones who can live in peace should be allowed to remain, and those who cannot live in peace there should find somewhere were they can... if that is possible for these racist psychopaths.

Now that's pretty darn funny whining about arabs-moslems and elected leaders.

Tell us about the non-existent elections that the two competing islamic terrorist franchises (Hamas and Fatah) have refused to let proceed.

 

[Fenton Lum]

• Israeli arms sales to Europe grew from $724M in 2014 to $1.63B in 2015
• Although the size of New Jersey Israel is one of the top 10 arms dealing nations in the world
• Israel produces 60% of all drones worldwide and sells to over 50 countries, at times selling to both sides of a given conflict, and Israel fueled the drones arms race between India and Pakistan

Palestine is an open air weapons testing and crowd control laboratory with Palestinians being used in the development phase; Gaza is a lab of mass destruction. US super bunker busters were supplied to the Israelis in 2014 and investors stock shot up; war is just business after all.

The “War in Terror” has been a boon to the industry, you’ve seen what amounts to advertisement in every “news” outlet, we are being whipped up into a frenzy once again. The industry also pioneers crowd control research on the Palestinians, and Israel is involved in the training of American forces and law enforcement. We see this in the militarization of our own police departments, Ferguson was but one example of how our system is prepping to Palestinianize our own population, and in fact Ferguson now has Israeli developed/sold skunk spray post the Ferguson events, although no incidents have yet been reported of use on American streets. It’s pretty clear that the Israeli occupation style power structure is moving toward the same in America; a warehousing of the poor in a post industrial age with diminishing living wage jobs and privatized for profit prisons complete with a return to convict leasing.

Much of the security monitoring and mass surveillance technologies are also produced in Israel and sold across the globe. “Targeted assassination” was invented in Israel, which Obama was quite fond of. Abu Ghraib torture methods? Israel.

The US and Israel are not allies. The US and Israeli arms dealers are allies, and war is the business they are both in. We are all collateral damage.

Cutting pasting the same thing on multiple threads over and over and over again is neither thoughtful discussion nor a solution to the conflict.

No one has been able to mount any rebuttal at all, I'll take that as acceptance of the points posted then. Why don't you attempt more than a line or two shoog.

 

[Fenton Lum]

I intend this thread to be a "solutions" thread like those on the one, two and no more state solutions threads. For those not familiar with those threads -- the intent is not to re-hash the same old, same old, but to provide detailed, concrete suggestions for solving the conflict and moving forward.

The common refrain from the Palestinian side is that Israel must "end the occupation". What does that mean in concrete terms? What specific steps (military, practical, economic, political, legal) should Israel take? Do you think this should be done step-by-step or all at once? What measurable conditions will count the occupation ended?

Please be as specific as possible. For example, "end the blockade of Gaza" is too vague.

Be prepared to defend your proposals and explain why they are practical and will lead to an end of conflict agreement.

Another Shusha thread... another fail, go figure.

All your crazy straw man arguments aside, What must Israel do to "end the occupation" you ask? I have handed this to you on a silver platter on multiple threads, but you just start a nerw thread and pretend everything is too complex for you.

Again now, the zionists need to get the hell out of there. They need to let the Palestinians and their elected leaders decide from there. The ones who can live in peace should be allowed to remain, and those who cannot live in peace there should find somewhere were they can... if that is possible for these racist psychopaths.

Now that's pretty darn funny whining about arabs-moslems and elected leaders.

Tell us about the non-existent elections that the two competing islamic terrorist franchises (Hamas and Fatah) have refused to let proceed.

Perhaps they've seen that we routinely take out duly democratically elected governments in other nations to install governments we prefer.

 

[montelatici]

The UNSC Resolution provides the roadmap. Any "protectorate" or other term to obscure occupation and Jew control won't work.

You don't cede land to a CONCEPT. You cede land to a GOVERNMENT. And where in what I said is the "Jew control"??

The Palestinians have as much of a "government" that the Jews had when the UN ceded control to them in 1948. The problem is the Jewish occupation which is far more oppressive than the British occupation when the partition was proclaimed.

 

[Hollie]

I intend this thread to be a "solutions" thread like those on the one, two and no more state solutions threads. For those not familiar with those threads -- the intent is not to re-hash the same old, same old, but to provide detailed, concrete suggestions for solving the conflict and moving forward.

The common refrain from the Palestinian side is that Israel must "end the occupation". What does that mean in concrete terms? What specific steps (military, practical, economic, political, legal) should Israel take? Do you think this should be done step-by-step or all at once? What measurable conditions will count the occupation ended?

Please be as specific as possible. For example, "end the blockade of Gaza" is too vague.

Be prepared to defend your proposals and explain why they are practical and will lead to an end of conflict agreement.

Another Shusha thread... another fail, go figure.

All your crazy straw man arguments aside, What must Israel do to "end the occupation" you ask? I have handed this to you on a silver platter on multiple threads, but you just start a nerw thread and pretend everything is too complex for you.

Again now, the zionists need to get the hell out of there. They need to let the Palestinians and their elected leaders decide from there. The ones who can live in peace should be allowed to remain, and those who cannot live in peace there should find somewhere were they can... if that is possible for these racist psychopaths.

Now that's pretty darn funny whining about arabs-moslems and elected leaders.

Tell us about the non-existent elections that the two competing islamic terrorist franchises (Hamas and Fatah) have refused to let proceed.

Perhaps they've seen that we routinely take out duly democratically elected governments in other nations to install governments we prefer.

Aside from a handy conspiracy theory you have ready to promote, are you furthering the notion that the Great Satan™ installed the islamic terrorist Hamas retrogrades?

 

[flacaltenn]

Since there is no likely Pali Leadership to emerge here.

True. The west tried to hold free and fair elections to let the Palestinian people decide who they wanted to lead them under international supervision. These elections were internationally recognised to have been both free and fair but the only problem was that the Zionists didn't get the result they wanted; Fatah lost, Hamas won. Fatah was then told to engineer a coup (which would have failed had the Zionists not stepped in). Now we have Hamas and Fatah at each other's throats; a result the Zionists can live with as there's no-one they need "negotiate" with, but then the Zionists have never wanted to negotiate anything, peace means they won't be able to expand any more and might actually be forced to give up some land.

Not interested in how Fatah goes to Civil War on the instructions of their "Zionist masters"..

Fact is -- the ONLY HOPE for a sovereign Palestine is if it's done FOR THEM and held in trust until they get their act together and decide that the FUTURE is more important to their kids than the past...

Who is going to do "the doing for them" and the "holding in trust"? Do the Palestinians get a say in deciding that? Once upon a time, what you are suggesting was called a "Mandate". The opinions of the Palestinians were ignored then as well and my, didn't that work out well for everyone?

The Protectorate would be administered by "the neighborhood" with cooperation from the entire Arab League. So the answer is the governments of Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon, (Syria) and Israel. No need for any law and order under the SOLE jurisdiction of Israel. I'm sure that Western countries would be falling over themselves to help with support and infrastructure development in a project designed to BUILD a Levant trade hub with Palestine as the center of it.

When and if the Palestinians step up -- they can supply municipal, regional leadership for the first 10 years. Palestinians NEED to endorse a plan that gives them economic life and security and stop fighting over who is the baddest ass when it comes to claims on Israeli land.

It's one of those "home makeover" TV reality shows. But on a slightly larger scale. If they DON'T respond to a genuine display of world-wide aid and assistance in creating a homeland -- then they are permanently fucked.

 

[flacaltenn]

The UNSC Resolution provides the roadmap. Any "protectorate" or other term to obscure occupation and Jew control won't work.

You don't cede land to a CONCEPT. You cede land to a GOVERNMENT. And where in what I said is the "Jew control"??

The Palestinians have as much of a "government" that the Jews had when the UN ceded control to them in 1948. The problem is the Jewish occupation which is far more oppressive than the British occupation when the partition was proclaimed.

1948 doesn't matter. There's a whole generation of WASTED Pali "leadership". The HIGH POINT of which lasted less than a year. If there was a countdown clock to "independence", it's been moving BACKWARDS for most of my lifetime..

 

[montelatici]

Since there is no likely Pali Leadership to emerge here.

True. The west tried to hold free and fair elections to let the Palestinian people decide who they wanted to lead them under international supervision. These elections were internationally recognised to have been both free and fair but the only problem was that the Zionists didn't get the result they wanted; Fatah lost, Hamas won. Fatah was then told to engineer a coup (which would have failed had the Zionists not stepped in). Now we have Hamas and Fatah at each other's throats; a result the Zionists can live with as there's no-one they need "negotiate" with, but then the Zionists have never wanted to negotiate anything, peace means they won't be able to expand any more and might actually be forced to give up some land.

Not interested in how Fatah goes to Civil War on the instructions of their "Zionist masters"..

Fact is -- the ONLY HOPE for a sovereign Palestine is if it's done FOR THEM and held in trust until they get their act together and decide that the FUTURE is more important to their kids than the past...

Who is going to do "the doing for them" and the "holding in trust"? Do the Palestinians get a say in deciding that? Once upon a time, what you are suggesting was called a "Mandate". The opinions of the Palestinians were ignored then as well and my, didn't that work out well for everyone?

The Protectorate would be administered by "the neighborhood" with cooperation from the entire Arab League. So the answer is the governments of Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon, (Syria) and Israel. No need for any law and order under the SOLE jurisdiction of Israel. I'm sure that Western countries would be falling over themselves to help with support and infrastructure development in a project designed to BUILD a Levant trade hub with Palestine as the center of it.

When and if the Palestinians step up -- they can supply municipal, regional leadership for the first 10 years. Palestinians NEED to endorse a plan that gives them economic life and security and stop fighting over who is the baddest ass when it comes to claims on Israeli land.

It's one of those "home makeover" TV reality shows. But on a slightly larger scale. If they DON'T respond to a genuine display of world-wide aid and assistance in creating a homeland -- then they are permanently fucked.

Fristly, Israel has no intention of relinquishing sovereignty over the WB or East Jerusalem, and secondly, there is no way to establish a sovereign, secure territory with a minimum of contiguousness that could possibly be an independent state without removing the settlements.

 

[flacaltenn]

Since there is no likely Pali Leadership to emerge here.

True. The west tried to hold free and fair elections to let the Palestinian people decide who they wanted to lead them under international supervision. These elections were internationally recognised to have been both free and fair but the only problem was that the Zionists didn't get the result they wanted; Fatah lost, Hamas won. Fatah was then told to engineer a coup (which would have failed had the Zionists not stepped in). Now we have Hamas and Fatah at each other's throats; a result the Zionists can live with as there's no-one they need "negotiate" with, but then the Zionists have never wanted to negotiate anything, peace means they won't be able to expand any more and might actually be forced to give up some land.

Not interested in how Fatah goes to Civil War on the instructions of their "Zionist masters"..

Fact is -- the ONLY HOPE for a sovereign Palestine is if it's done FOR THEM and held in trust until they get their act together and decide that the FUTURE is more important to their kids than the past...

Who is going to do "the doing for them" and the "holding in trust"? Do the Palestinians get a say in deciding that? Once upon a time, what you are suggesting was called a "Mandate". The opinions of the Palestinians were ignored then as well and my, didn't that work out well for everyone?

The Protectorate would be administered by "the neighborhood" with cooperation from the entire Arab League. So the answer is the governments of Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon, (Syria) and Israel. No need for any law and order under the SOLE jurisdiction of Israel. I'm sure that Western countries would be falling over themselves to help with support and infrastructure development in a project designed to BUILD a Levant trade hub with Palestine as the center of it.

When and if the Palestinians step up -- they can supply municipal, regional leadership for the first 10 years. Palestinians NEED to endorse a plan that gives them economic life and security and stop fighting over who is the baddest ass when it comes to claims on Israeli land.

It's one of those "home makeover" TV reality shows. But on a slightly larger scale. If they DON'T respond to a genuine display of world-wide aid and assistance in creating a homeland -- then they are permanently fucked.

Fristly, Israel has no intention of relinquishing sovereignty over the WB or East Jerusalem, and secondly, there is no way to establish a sovereign, secure territory with a minimum of contiguousness that could possibly be an independent state without removing the settlements.

Gaza is never gonna be "contiguous" with West bank or other "swapped land". But you PROVIDE the connectivity with the "trade corridor". A plan to put the Palestinians in the middle of EVERYTHING in that region. You can easily connect Gaza to the West Bank with a "bypass" heavy highway that cuts thru the Sinai, lower tip of Israel and up the coasts of the Dead Sea. The scale of this is NO DIFFERENT from the size of many American City "beltways". Having Jordan kick in some "east bank Jordan property" for this to happen is a mutual win-win.. Could extend North to the Golan and Lebanon.