What is wrong with some people

I see. While that is not a bad option I have a few concerns with that. For one, I believe that Medicare is being dropped by many places because the payments are very low and the payment cycle takes too long for many providers.

There are certain access issues, though the majority of Medicare recipients report no problem in finding a physician. The big problem is that Congress hasn't yet found the will to permanently fix the flawed sustainable growth rate formula that triggers large cuts in reimbursements to Medicare providers (the situation we're in this week). The uncertainty brings with it a certain fatigue from some providers.

In its last report to Congress, MedPAC looked into the question of whether Medicare reimbursements are adequate. In their words, "We find instead that hospitals under financial pressure tend to control their costs, which makes it more likely that they profit from Medicare patients." In other words, hospitals that suffer losses from Medicare's (relatively) low reimbursement rates are those that are already swimming in money from other sources. Providers that are somewhat cash-strapped ("under financial pressure") are forced to operate more efficiently and consequently they actually turn a profit on Medicare patients. Give them more and they'll spend more, but that's not good for costs and it's not necessarily good for care, either.

If I am not mistaken, Medicare will pay what it deems fit and that essentially means that the public option would be operating under a price control system where the insurance companies would be at a major disadvantage not having the same prices. I need to look into that concept a little more as it sound intriguing.

Medicare does set its own rates but not quite as capriciously as "what it deems fit" might imply. From an excellent overview of how they do it:

DRG is a prospective payment system that covers payment for all patient costs for each hospitalization except doctors’ fees, which are covered separately under Part B. For each patient and each admission, the hospital is paid a fixed amount that is meant to cover all hospital costs and charges for services that would be needed to treat a patient with a particular problem. About five hundred DRG categories have been created, each associated with a specific disease or injury. [...]

The values of DRG’s are set empirically, based on actual data collected about costs of hospital services, and modified on a regular basis to reflect changes in costs and management approaches. There is one baseline DRG for each condition, but that baseline payment for hospitals is adjusted for other factors, including local labor costs, hospital location, teaching and training programs, large Medicaid and non-paying populations, and so on. The dollar value of the modifiers often exceeds the dollar value of the underlying DRG. It is these modifiers that account for the large region to region variation.​

To the universal coverage achieved in this bill: That is most likely the BIGGEST beef I have with this bill. It gives the insurance companies a captive audience without increasing competition aka: enforced monopoly. That is a TERRIBLE idea and only has the potential to increase prices. If it is illegal to nopt purchase my product why sell it at a lower price?

There are a few points to think about there. First, in creating the health insurance exchanges, the law does make for a more competitive individual market. It's transparent (HealthCare.gov is set to launch next week and will aid shoppers by containing details about plans in the individual market, though comparative price information won't be up for a few more months). It encourages competition on price--right now, insurers can compete on risk (i.e. excluding certain individuals or charging them higher rates for the same policy sold more cheaply to someone else) but after the community rating and guaranteed issue rules go into effect in the exchanges, price competition will be the only option left for insurers. Moreover, insurers will be subject to medical loss ratios (80% for individual plans in the exchanges), meaning that 80% of premium money must go toward care. All administrative and other costs, as well as profits, must be squeezed out of the remaining 20%. Jacking up rates simply to pad profits (without corresponding increases in reimbursements for care) will just result in rebates being mailed out to customers.

That said, in this situation there are limits to competition (among insurers). As I hinted in my post above, the nature of the mechanism by which reimbursements are set is key: insurers negotiate with providers. Increasing the number of insurers just reduces each one's leverage relative to providers, allowing providers to demand higher reimbursements. As it is, we already have some evidence that in many states providers already have enough clout to extort ever higher reimbursements from insurers.

So there's somewhat of a delicate balance here between designing a competitive marketplace and getting carried away with the competition.

As of now, insurance cannot be sold across state lines because of legal differences in coverage and insurance requirements. If this coverage is not under the same guise, that is another fairly large advantage given to the public option that the insurance companies would have a hard time competing against.

Part of what this law does is provide some uniformity to minimum standards, regarding benefits and underwriting. There are provisions in it for multi-state (private) plans to be sold under the supervision of the Office of Personnel Management (the arm of the federal government that oversees the Federal Employee Health Benefits Plan). There are also provisions encouraging state compacts that would allow plans to be sold across state lines.

The original public option (in H.R. 3200) was specifically directed to play by the same rules as any other plan: "ENSURING A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD.—Consistent with this subtitle, the public health insurance option shall comply with requirements that are applicable under this title to an Exchange-participating health benefits plan, including requirements related to benefits, benefit levels, provider networks, notices, consumer protections, and cost sharing."
 
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this has become a public option debate. that horse is dead and beat to a pulp. no chance for resuscitation.

Yes it has but that horse will never die. It is rare we actually get a public op debate here. Usually it ends up as a flame war of I am right and you are wrong BS. I tried to start a few public option debates when it was first proposed and could not get one single honest debate here. This time it looks more promising. honestly, the OP was just a complaint anyway ;)
 
Hopefully the rightwing tools can put up a republican that is moderate on social issues and at least put up a fight. I'll take some gridlock over obama's class warfare.
 
Greenbeard

There are certain access issues, though the majority of Medicare recipients report no problem in finding a physician. The big problem is that Congress hasn't yet found the will to permanently fix the flawed sustainable growth rate formula that triggers large cuts in reimbursements to Medicare providers (the situation we're in this week). The uncertainty brings with it a certain fatigue from some providers.

In its last report to Congress, MedPAC looked into the question of whether Medicare reimbursements are adequate. In their words, "We find instead that hospitals under financial pressure tend to control their costs, which makes it more likely that they profit from Medicare patients." In other words, hospitals that suffer losses from Medicare's (relatively) low reimbursement rates are those that are already swimming in money from other sources. Providers that are somewhat cash-strapped ("under financial pressure") are forced to operate more efficiently and consequently they actually turn a profit on Medicare patients. Give them more and they'll spend more, but that's not good for costs and it's not necessarily good for care, either.
To the first, that is the problem with Medicare and basing any system off their pay scale. It will get worse as more retire and live longer. That is almost a given. There needs to be serious changes if the reimbursement drops to low and Medicare patents begin to be funneled into fewer and fewer places.

To the second, I find that quite interesting. In this matter, it is a good thing. Forcing hospitals to operate efficiently is a paramount hurdle in getting our healthcare back on track.
Medicare does set its own rates but not quite as capriciously as "what it deems fit" might imply. From an excellent overview of how they do it:
DRG is a prospective payment system that covers payment for all patient costs for each hospitalization except doctors’ fees, which are covered separately under Part B. For each patient and each admission, the hospital is paid a fixed amount that is meant to cover all hospital costs and charges for services that would be needed to treat a patient with a particular problem. About five hundred DRG categories have been created, each associated with a specific disease or injury. [...]

The values of DRG’s are set empirically, based on actual data collected about costs of hospital services, and modified on a regular basis to reflect changes in costs and management approaches. There is one baseline DRG for each condition, but that baseline payment for hospitals is adjusted for other factors, including local labor costs, hospital location, teaching and training programs, large Medicaid and non-paying populations, and so on. The dollar value of the modifiers often exceeds the dollar value of the underlying DRG. It is these modifiers that account for the large region to region variation.
That still amount to what it deems fit. There is always some research to back it up and I am glad that they take those factors into consideration. It still is no way for the bulk of the health industry to rely on that type of system and I would not like to see it implemented in a main insurer. It makes a lot of sense for Medicare as much of those recipients are of age and that care becomes prohibitively expensive to the point of unsustainability.
There are a few points to think about there. First, in creating the health insurance exchanges, the law does make for a more competitive individual market. It's transparent (HealthCare.gov is set to launch next week and will aid shoppers by containing details about plans in the individual market, though comparative price information won't be up for a few more months). It encourages competition on price--right now, insurers can compete on risk (i.e. excluding certain individuals or charging them higher rates for the same policy sold more cheaply to someone else) but after the community rating and guaranteed issue rules go into effect in the exchanges, price competition will be the only option left for insurers. Moreover, insurers will be subject to medical loss ratios (80% for individual plans in the exchanges), meaning that 80% of premium money must go toward care. All administrative and other costs, as well as profits, must be squeezed out of the remaining 20%. Jacking up rates simply to pad profits (without corresponding increases in reimbursements for care) will just result in rebates being mailed out to customers.

Almost amounts to price control here as well. I do not think that it is right to determine what percentage the company can and cannot charge for overhead and profits, that's what competition is for. I do not see how this will cause a whole lot more competition though. The problem is there are MANY people that do not have access to more than a few companies in total and I worry about what the government is going to mandate as a minimum. It will likely start out quite well as it did in many states and then balloon to stupidity. That is one issue I see in healthcare, the requirement for insurance companies to cover all kinds of inane procedures that you may not want coverage for. On the other hand, I agree there needs to be some sort of minimum standard applied to make insurance simpler to understand, purchase and to provide basic consumer protections.

What is unfortunately missing is healthcare purchased from employers. The current plan is ENCOURAGING this through fines and I disagree with this concept. One major problem with healthcare is the fact that it is tied to your job. I have been hit by this injustice where I cannot leave my current occupation because I require the health insurance that I am receiving. If it were not tied to my job I may very well have moved on as I wanted too but now I do not have a choice. This is even more pronounced for those that are fired. As far as I know there are no provisions in this bill for that scenario but I could be wrong, it is over 2K pages after all ;) The ability to not be denied does help this situation somewhat but I believe we would be better served by purchasing healthcare insurance on our own.
That said, in this situation there are limits to competition (among insurers). As I hinted in my post above, the nature of the mechanism by which reimbursements are set is key: insurers negotiate with providers. Increasing the number of insurers just reduces each one's leverage relative to providers, allowing providers to demand higher reimbursements. As it is, we already have some evidence that in many states providers already have enough clout to extort ever higher reimbursements from insurers.

So there's somewhat of a delicate balance here between designing a competitive marketplace and getting carried away with the competition.
That may very well be true but it seems to me that if each individual insurance company were not negotiating their own special price for their constituents then the overall price would be lower for everyone. Competition could also be between hospitals themselves. I would imagine that insurers are still allowed to choose the hospitals that you can pick from for standard care? There are also other provisions that need to be put in place to drive the cost of healthcare down like lifting the restrictions on the number of doctors out there and increasing the urgent care facilities.
The original public option (in H.R. 3200) was specifically directed to play by the same rules as any other plan: "ENSURING A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD.—Consistent with this subtitle, the public health insurance option shall comply with requirements that are applicable under this title to an Exchange-participating health benefits plan, including requirements related to benefits, benefit levels, provider networks, notices, consumer protections, and cost sharing."

I could fully support a model to that extent. On even grounds we could put this debate to rest as the proof would be in the results.
 
STH said:
Have you not had your ass kicked on this topic enough times already? Why are you still talking, let alone with more made up garbage? The option was designed to operate in a completely independent manner, just like any private insurer, in many ways the first of its kind.

But I can't actually expect you to know facts now, can I?

So to was social security.............

False yet again. It was taxed based then just as it is now. "Benefits were to be based on payroll tax contributions". It was not an opt-in insurance policy meant to be self sustaining. It was an unbalanced taxation.

Perhaps you should try that reading thing before posting your truthiness. As I said: I can't actually expect you to know facts now, can I?

It certainly was intended to be self sustaining, don't try those lies.

Aw, my favorite moron back for more pain. Note the part you bolded in my text that you said was wrong. Note how in all actuality, it was designed to act independently like a private insurer. Note also how social security did NOT act independently like a private insurer. It acted through taxation whereby one generation paid into the previous, whether they used the benefits themselves when they were older or not. Contrast that to the public option, which only offers benefits to those who pay.

To dumb it down for you yet again: one policy had everyone pay a little for a portion of the population, essentially paying for someone else in a blind unknown manner. The other established services directly for payment, just like the private sector.

You keep using phrases like "those lies". Notice how I prove your stupidity much easier than all the "you lie" phrases in the world.

Why is the government not the best solution here? Simple answer is that cost is NEVER driven down by government control or involvement.
This actually isn't true at all in health care. Medicare does a lot of things poorly, but it is excellent at somehow getting doctors to accept a drastically lower fee for service compared to anyone else.

If there was true competition then prices would be driven down to meet demand. Instead, we have inflated pricing on the most simplest of services because the customer is never aware of what is going on. We should actally be paying for the small stuff and insuring for the major disasters.
This is a good point. There is no transparency in prices in the medical industry. At the same time, the reason docs don't know pricing is because it's different for each insurance company, and so the price is ultimately set by the insurance company, not the doctor. That leaves open market competition limited to a small minority of people who pay out of pocket, and vying for that minuscule percentage just isn't worth it at that point.
 
This actually isn't true at all in health care. Medicare does a lot of things poorly, but it is excellent at somehow getting doctors to accept a drastically lower fee for service compared to anyone else.

Because Medicare uses price controls. That would be the death of medical advancement. There needs to be a large profit margin to get these companies to invest the billions it takes to pioneer new medical procedures. Take that away and the advancement will come to a trickle. I do not want to see price control. We need refinement.
 
This actually isn't true at all in health care. Medicare does a lot of things poorly, but it is excellent at somehow getting doctors to accept a drastically lower fee for service compared to anyone else.

Because Medicare uses price controls. That would be the death of medical advancement. There needs to be a large profit margin to get these companies to invest the billions it takes to pioneer new medical procedures. Take that away and the advancement will come to a trickle. I do not want to see price control. We need refinement.

Except the large profit margin still rests with the doctor. The largest group of patients is seen by PCPs. What new medical procedures do you see being pioneered there? There are certainly procedures and technology in other specialized fields, but on the whole they service a minority of any given group. Additional markup to the doctor or tech is not needed for individual use.

I agree with you that this method is not ideal. I only wanted to point out in my previous post that the government has shown a tremendous ability for markdowns in the medical field.
 
That still amount to what it deems fit. There is always some research to back it up and I am glad that they take those factors into consideration. It still is no way for the bulk of the health industry to rely on that type of system and I would not like to see it implemented in a main insurer. It makes a lot of sense for Medicare as much of those recipients are of age and that care becomes prohibitively expensive to the point of unsustainability.

The idea behind the public option was never that the public option would became the only insurer or that all insurance would eventually reimburse at rates set like Medicare rates. Instead, it would've put pressure on private insurers and providers alike to start controlling costs. The reason, of course, is that since the robust public option would have reimbursed at lower rates than private insurers, its premiums would be lower.

Insurers would face pressure to negotiate lower reimbursement rates to keep their own premiums down and providers would have an incentive to grant lower rates, lest more customers flock toward the public option (an outcome that would lower reimbursements to those providers more than would granting private insurers lower--but still higher than public option--rates). As I said above, the intent wasn't for it to take over the market but rather to reshape the landscape in which the insurer-provider negotiation takes place. In one sense, it would have given private insurers cover (and leverage) to start bringing down rates.


What is unfortunately missing is healthcare purchased from employers. The current plan is ENCOURAGING this through fines and I disagree with this concept. One major problem with healthcare is the fact that it is tied to your job. I have been hit by this injustice where I cannot leave my current occupation because I require the health insurance that I am receiving. If it were not tied to my job I may very well have moved on as I wanted too but now I do not have a choice. This is even more pronounced for those that are fired. As far as I know there are no provisions in this bill for that scenario but I could be wrong, it is over 2K pages after all ;) The ability to not be denied does help this situation somewhat but I believe we would be better served by purchasing healthcare insurance on our own.

There are provisions, and there aren't provisions. On the one hand you have a calculation: people like the current system (or at least they're wary of changing it too fast) and they like the pledge that if they like their coverage they can keep it. On the other hand, people also like the idea of portability and we'd all be better served by decoupling health insurance from job status.

Despite the quasi-mandate, the law is a small step in that direction. And that, again, is because of the construction of the exchanges. Employers can choose to take their employees into the exchange. There are also free choice vouchers that you allow you to take your employer's contribution into the exchange to buy your own plan if you're paying at least 8% of your income for you employer-based plan; Ron Wyden, the Senator who go that inserted into the law, preferred a wider provision that allowed anyone--regardless of how much of their income they were spending on their employer-sponsored plan--to take their employer's contribution into the exchange but he had to live with this slightly watered-down version.

With time, we may well see more employers taking their employees into the exchanges (and if the free choice vouchers prove popular, perhaps a widening of their availability).

That may very well be true but it seems to me that if each individual insurance company were not negotiating their own special price for their constituents then the overall price would be lower for everyone. Competition could also be between hospitals themselves. I would imagine that insurers are still allowed to choose the hospitals that you can pick from for standard care? There are also other provisions that need to be put in place to drive the cost of healthcare down like lifting the restrictions on the number of doctors out there and increasing the urgent care facilities.

Insurers' hands are somewhat tied when it comes to choosing facilities. Customers want a choice of doctors and facilities, meaning it's difficult for insurers to credibly threaten network exclusion when negotiating reimbursements with a given provider. This is especially true of the big name, "must have" providers. These are the ones that can do the most damage in driving up costs.
 
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I am very aware of what I am saying. I am not the one with the blinders on. I am not the one that goes into the defensive mode when the word soicalism is mentioned.

no, you just begin to salivate and spray when the "soicalism" bell rings.

Do you not realize that socialism is the prefered economical system that creats a dictatorship?

Do you have even one scintilla of evidence for this, bigrebnc? From my own observations, the best breeding ground for a dictatorship is an agrian society or monarchy. I don't see Canada or Sweden sliding into a dictatorship, do you?

You might try learning a bit about the world and forming your own opinions, rather than being spoon fed.
 
Do you want to live in a country that taxes you 70% of your income and covers your health care. Do you want to live in a country where the decision for you to see a heart specialist for an on going situation is made and set up in a day or two at the most,or be told to take 2 aspirin and go home, you have an appointment in 6-8 weeks,if at all.You can not tell me there are not going to be problems when you add 20 million people to the health care system and there isn't any answer as to where new Doctors,nurses hospitals are coming from to handle the tremendous demand on the system. If you want socialized medicine and BIG government to run your life or tell you how to live it then Obama's your man and the Democrat party is for you.

Rozman, things are not this bad anywhere. Not even in Sweden, arguably the most socialized of all governments. Stop reading blogs as if they are factual, please.
 
no, you just begin to salivate and spray when the "soicalism" bell rings.

Do you not realize that socialism is the prefered economical system that creats a dictatorship?

Do you have even one scintilla of evidence for this, bigrebnc? From my own observations, the best breeding ground for a dictatorship is an agrian society or monarchy. I don't see Canada or Sweden sliding into a dictatorship, do you?

You might try learning a bit about the world and forming your own opinions, rather than being spoon fed.
Have you ever lived in any other country?
Hitler, Stalin, Castro, Moa, Would you call them Chiorboys?
 
Do you not realize that socialism is the prefered economical system that creats a dictatorship?

Do you have even one scintilla of evidence for this, bigrebnc? From my own observations, the best breeding ground for a dictatorship is an agrian society or monarchy. I don't see Canada or Sweden sliding into a dictatorship, do you?

You might try learning a bit about the world and forming your own opinions, rather than being spoon fed.
Have you ever lived in any other country?
Hitler, Stalin, Castro, Moa, Would you call them Chiorboys?
i would call them dictators. maybe your contention that socialism leads to dictatorship is inverted, that dictatorship leaves nothing but communal oligarchy as a socio-economic option.

democracy leads to a different brand of socialism. how many strongly democratic, strongly capitalistic countries have avoided that course?
 

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