WAR: Israel invades Gaza Strip

[Modbert]

What??? I'm saying IF the United States occupied Mexico, you could expect to see similar atrocities being committed by Mexicans. Not that they actually do that. Similarly, if Mexico invaded the US (in a parallel universe where the US had no superguns), then you would see a similar reaction from the US. If some Alien Invaders came and occupied the US, and destroyed the entire army, would you not expect Americans to resist the occupation by any means? All peoples resist occupation. If you think that that is terrorism, then I'm sure all of you applaud Chinese oppression in Tibet, and that Stalin was a great ol' fellow for killing all those Russian Terrorists who were trying to bring their state down. But of course you don't because he's the enemy. If WE do it it's fine, if THEY do it it's wrong. Same old thing every time.

You make alot of great points Epsilon and at the same time reminded me of this:

 

[Sunni Man]

Now the whole world is getting a first hand look at the IDF murderers in action.

 

[dilloduck]

The US Government will. Like it always does.

Which idiots in the US government ? We got a million of them. Who has the power to tell another nation what to do ?

 

[tigerbob]

...since the militants are going to find some reason to attack as long as Israel does not comply with all their demands, aren't Israel's security concerns better served by taking military actions to weaken the enemy and making it more difficult for him to arm and organize?

Mmmmm, it depends what you mean by better served.

Better served in the immediate term, probably yes. Better served in the medium to long term, I suspect not, as lack of engagement politically just means that innocent men, women and children on both sides of the border continue to die, which I'd go out on a limb and say only increases the hostility.

Of course political engagement requires commitment to finding a peaceful solution. Such commitment is hard to find while the two sides first response is to kill in a largely indiscriminate manner. If someone were shelling, bombing or firing rockets at the place where my family lived, I guess I would find it very hard to be open to dialogue as well.

 

[jillian]

Mmmmm, it depends what you mean by better served.

Better served in the immediate term, probably yes. Better served in the medium to long term, I suspect not, as lack of engagement politically just means that innocent men, women and children on both sides of the border continue to die, which I'd go out on a limb and say only increases the hostility.

Of course political engagement requires commitment to finding a peaceful solution. Such commitment is hard to find while the two sides first response is to kill in a largely indiscriminate manner. If someone were shelling, bombing or firing rockets at the place where my family lived, I guess I would find it very hard to be open to dialogue as well.

Israel has made peace with every one of its neighbors which has been honest in its efforts at peace.

At this point, it almost doesn't matter what Israel does. The double standard applied to Israel's defense of its country by people who, ultimately, want to see that country destroyed or made into yet another Islamic country, really can't be taken into consideration any more. These people won't be happy until Israel doesn't exist.

Go ahead... push these people a few questions... ultimately you get garbage like "well why should Israel be a country for Jews"? (while not caring that there are about 20 muslim countries)... or "Israel should be in Utah".

So frankly, I'm at the point where I understand exactly who those people are. I hope Hamas is destroyed and Abbas actually is fearless enough to make peace.

But first he really needs to make his national television stations stop showing things like "terrorist mickey mouse".

 

[Sunni Man]

But first he really needs to make his national television stations stop showing things like "terrorist mickey mouse".

I think a Palestanian Mickey Mouse is going to be the least of Israel's problems!!!

 

[tigerbob]

Go ahead... push these people a few questions... ultimately you get garbage like "well why should Israel be a country for Jews"? (while not caring that there are about 20 muslim countries)... or "Israel should be in Utah".

The fact that there are about 20 muslim countries is immaterial IMO. The fact that Israel does have a right to exist is what is important.

And I do treat the types of answers you mentioned as garbage, which is exactly the way such responses need to be treated.

 

[mash107]

The fact that there are about 20 muslim countries is immaterial IMO. The fact that Israel does have a right to exist is what is important.

And I do treat the types of answers you mentioned as garbage, which is exactly the way such responses need to be treated.

Not only that, but any person forcibly vacated from their home, whether Jew or Arab, have an absolute right to return to that property, or fairly compensated.

 

[tigerbob]

Not only that, but any person forcibly vacated from their home, whether Jew or Arab, have an absolute right to return to that property, or fairly compensated.

Are you trying to lead me onto a sucker punch? Is there another sentence you are ready to add?

 

[Nevadamedic]

No ... eventually idiots make Israel not finish the job because of the "civilians" used by the terrorists to shield their installations.

If Israel is permitted to defend itself and get rid of the threat, there's a chance at peace.

Making them stop every time just emboldens terrorists.

I agree, Israel's only chance is wiping out the Hamas Terrorist Regime.

 

[tigerbob]

I agree, Israel's only chance is wiping out the Hamas Terrorist Regime.

How exactly does one do that? Is just killing the leaders of Hamas going to achieve it?

 

[Modbert]

How exactly does one do that? Is just killing the leaders of Hamas going to achieve it?

Bob, tough talking with people who believe that.

It's like people who believe if Hitler was killed that the Nazis would of been gone.

Dictatorships or groups like Hamas usually have more then enough people willing to step up and take the reins if the ones before them perish.

 

[tigerbob]

Bob, tough talking with people who believe that.

It's like people who believe if Hitler was killed that the Nazis would of been gone.

Dictatorships or groups like Hamas usually have more then enough people willing to step up and take the reins if the ones before them perish.

Actually, I think the death of Hitler would have made a huge difference, but I take your point. Hamas is a hydra.

 

[Modbert]

Actually, I think the death of Hitler would have made a huge difference, but I take your point. Hamas is a hydra.

Depends when he would be killed, after WWII began would of been useless.

It would of turned Hitler into a Martyr.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Mmmmm, it depends what you mean by better served.

Better served in the immediate term, probably yes. Better served in the medium to long term, I suspect not, as lack of engagement politically just means that innocent men, women and children on both sides of the border continue to die, which I'd go out on a limb and say only increases the hostility.

Of course political engagement requires commitment to finding a peaceful solution. Such commitment is hard to find while the two sides first response is to kill in a largely indiscriminate manner. If someone were shelling, bombing or firing rockets at the place where my family lived, I guess I would find it very hard to be open to dialogue as well.

But there is ongoing political engagement and it is making steady progress. Not only have are peace talks going on, only briefly interrupted by this current operation, but as the US and Jordan continue to train the PA's new security forces, Israel is gradually turning over to them responsibility for keeping the peace in the West Bank. The Palestinian and Israeli negotiators are not so far apart even on the most difficult issues, but after generations of being promised by their leaders and other Arab leaders that they would eventually get things that are unrealistic the Palestinians do not have a government that is strong enough or popular enough to persuade them to make difficult compromises. So while the negotiators have made significant progress in principle, the present Palestinian government is too weak and the people too divided for Israel to trust any treaty it might sign with the PA to be upheld. I think it's a long shot, but perhaps someday the Palestinians will become united behind a moderate government that will have the clout to sell them the compromises that are necessary to have final peace and statehood.

Hamas, however, is doctrinally committed to the destruction of Israel and is doctrinally opposed to any negotiations with Israel. When Hamas speaks of resistance, it is not talking about Israeli impingements on the Palestinians in the territories, but resistance to the existence of the state of Israel. Therefore, no meaningful political engagement with Hamas is possible, and even more importantly, as long as Hamas, or other such militant organizations, remains a force among the Palestinians, no moderate Palestinian government will be a credible peace partner for Israel.

 

[Nevadamedic]

How exactly does one do that? Is just killing the leaders of Hamas going to achieve it?

By hitting everything Hamas has and controls. By wiping out their leadership and where they get their funds.

 

[tigerbob]

But there is ongoing political engagement and it is making steady progress. Not only have are peace talks going on, only briefly interrupted by this current operation, but as the US and Jordan continue to train the PA's new security forces, Israel is gradually turning over to them responsibility for keeping the peace in the West Bank. The Palestinian and Israeli negotiators are not so far apart even on the most difficult issues, but after generations of being promised by their leaders and other Arab leaders that they would eventually get things that are unrealistic the Palestinians do not have a government that is strong enough or popular enough to persuade them to make difficult compromises. So while the negotiators have made significant progress in principle, the present Palestinian government is too weak and the people too divided for Israel to trust any treaty it might sign with the PA to be upheld. I think it's a long shot, but perhaps someday the Palestinians will become united behind a moderate government that will have the clout to sell them the compromises that are necessary to have final peace and statehood.

Hamas, however, is doctrinally committed to the destruction of Israel and is doctrinally opposed to any negotiations with Israel. When Hamas speaks of resistance, it is not talking about Israeli impingements on the Palestinians in the territories, but resistance to the existence of the state of Israel. Therefore, no meaningful political engagement with Hamas is possible, and even more importantly, as long as Hamas, or other such militant organizations, remains a force among the Palestinians, no moderate Palestinian government will be a credible peace partner for Israel.

That was kind of the point I was making. If you say that progress has been made I'm delighted to hear it. it's just that there is little evidence of progress based on the reports we see coming out of the area. I know there is always more to the situation than we see in the media, but I'm no expert so I'm just speaking as I find.

 

[Modbert]

By hitting everything Hamas has and controls. By wiping out their leadership and where they get their funds.

Which happens to include every civilian building and partly the funds come from the people.

 

[toomuchtime_]

That was kind of the point I was making. If you say that progress has been made I'm delighted to hear it. it's just that there is little evidence of progress based on the reports we see coming out of the area. I know there is always more to the situation than we see in the media, but I'm no expert so I'm just speaking as I find.

I thought your point was that there was no political engagement, and clearly there has been ongoing political engagement, but no amount of progress in principle can bring and meaningful results unless the Palestinians unite behind a moderate government that has the clout to sell the agreement to them. This being so, the best Israel can do for the present is to take measures to prevent the internal political problems of the Palestinians from endangering Israelis, and the only measures to have that effect so far have been construction of the fences and the occupation of the territories.

 

[Nevadamedic]

Which happens to include every civilian building and partly the funds come from the people.

Well then they need to keep attacking until the people turn on the Hamas Government.