WACO

[MikeK]

Dark day when innocent children die like that. Our government should be ashamed

The only children killed were those fathered by Koresh. I don't know what that means, but it doesn't feel innocent to me.

Are you questioning the fundamental innocence of those children, some of whom were as young as two?

 

[MikeK]

It was an excellent series. The story needs to be told.

However, it was so infuriating watching the jackbooted government assholes that I couldn't even watch the last episode.

The sad thing is that story was not fiction but actually happen.

Never trust the government. They are never going to look after your interest. They will take your money, fuck you and if they feel like it kill you and your children. Waco is a great example.

Really?

I think the real lesson of Waco should be don't be a religious nut who lets a creep rape your children and sell guns.

Do you believe Koresh was raping children? Have you read any of the books on this subject, such as The Ashes of Waco?

As far as Koresh "selling guns," why does that upset you? Do you believe there is something inherently wrong with selling guns? WalMart sells guns. So do lots of others, major corporations as well as individuals.

What you don't know, and possibly don't wish to know, is several of the Branch Davidians were federally licensed firearms dealers and the Branch Davidians operated an active mail-order firearms and accessories business. In spite of strenuous efforts on the part of the BATF no evidence was ever produced to show the Davidians had broken any gun laws. Everything the feds had to say about that was fabricated.

You need to do some reading on the subject.

 

[JoeB131]

Do you believe Koresh was raping children? Have you read any of the books on this subject, such as The Ashes of Waco?

Um, yeah, I've read lots of books on the subject, including one by ex-cult member David Thibadeau, where he admits that Koresh banged the 11 year old sister of his legal wife, and fathered three children with her.

As far as Koresh "selling guns," why does that upset you? Do you believe there is something inherently wrong with selling guns? WalMart sells guns. So do lots of others, major corporations as well as individuals.

Well, first, gun ownership should be banned, but Koresh and his mob were doing more than that. they were selling illegally modified weapons, which is what triggered the ATF investigation.

What you don't know, and possibly don't wish to know, is several of the Branch Davidians were federally licensed firearms dealers and the Branch Davidians operated an active mail-order firearms and accessories business. In spite of strenuous efforts on the part of the BATF no evidence was ever produced to show the Davidians had broken any gun laws. Everything the feds had to say about that was fabricated.

Yes, which gave the ATF authorization to inspect their inventory and records... and when they tried, the Davidians started shooting at them.

You need to do some reading on the subject.

I've read plenty on the subject... the Davidians were a bunch of fucked up cultists and good riddance.

 

[Lysistrata]

The only fault of the ATF and the FBI was going ahead with the first raid even though people had advance knowledge of it, causing the deaths of at least three agents when people inside the compound opened fire on them. This wasn't the first time that cops screwed up. Remember the 1985 bombing of Philadelphia in an effort to get members of MOVE, when everyone in the MOVE fortified house died, and 61 homes were burnt to the ground:

1985: When Philly police dropped a bomb on a residential neighborhood

Nobody remembers MOVE or thinks that they were murdered by heartless government officials. MOVE seems to have been a Koresh-type outfit. Nobody even remembers the innocent people who were burnt out of 61+ homes in the area as a result of a bomb set off by law enforcement.

So I don't know how why what happened in Waco should be remembered. Koresh was known for the sexual abuse and grooming of female children and other abuse of male children. Koresh opened fire on agents with an arrest warrant some 51 days before. The fires were set by the Branch Davidians themselves. It was the county sheriff's department that first contacted the ATF.

Growing Up Under Koresh: Cult Children Tell of Abuses

Life inside apocalyptic religious sect involved in 1993 Waco siege

Waco siege - Wikipedia

How the 1993 Waco standoff began with a bloody gunbattle that federal agents now regret | Crime | Dallas News

I was home that day to clean the carpets and watched the entire incident unfold in real time. Even after the fire started, no one attempted to escape. I started screaming at the TV when I saw no one coming out. The fires were set in two different places.

All of this BS about Waco is just that.

 

[hunarcy]

Dark day when innocent children die like that. Our government should be ashamed

The only children killed were those fathered by Koresh. I don't know what that means, but it doesn't feel innocent to me.

Are you questioning the fundamental innocence of those children, some of whom were as young as two?

Nope, not the kids. Of the action of keeping them.

 

[MikeK]

[...]
what don't you understand about a warrant???

One thing I do understand about a warrant is if its specifications are flawed the warrant is void -- and the warrant issued to BATF to forcibly search the Davidian premises contained several outstanding flaws. THE UNWARRANTED WARRANT

 

[MikeK]

Um, yeah, I've read lots of books on the subject, including one by ex-cult member David Thibadeau, where he admits that Koresh banged the 11 year old sister of his legal wife, and fathered three children with her.

The fact that David Thibodeau was a resident Branch Davidian leaves little room for objectivity where Koresh's relationships are concerned. While I'm not suggesting what Thibodeau has to say about Koresh in his book, A Place Called Waco, is necessarily tainted, I will say a far more reliable source of information on personal dynamics and activities within the cult are the perceptions of an observer who had no personal relationships with any of its members.

 

[Lysistrata]

Don't forget that Koresh repeatedly raped little girls and forced little boys to march around like soldiers, and then lit the fires that killed so many. The public support for child rapists and sex-groomers in this country has been astounding.

Even if the warrant being served on Koresh was flawed in some way, this would be an argument to be made in court, not an excuse for him and his minions to start shooting at the people serving it.

 

[JoeB131]

One thing I do understand about a warrant is if its specifications are flawed the warrant is void -- and the warrant issued to BATF to forcibly search the Davidian premises contained several outstanding flaws.

So what? If that was the case, you get a lawyer and you argue it in court.

You don't go shooting at the LEO's serving it.

The fact that David Thibodeau was a resident Branch Davidian leaves little room for objectivity where Koresh's relationships are concerned. While I'm not suggesting what Thibodeau has to say about Koresh in his book, A Place Called Waco, is necessarily tainted, I will say a far more reliable source of information on personal dynamics and activities within the cult are the perceptions of an observer who had no personal relationships with any of its members.

That's, um, crazy.

Thibodeau lived on the compound. He saw Michelle Jones, the 11 year old sister of Koresh's wife, Rachel Jones, and the three children that Koresh fathered on her. He also filed false marriage papers to Jones to cover up the fact that Koresh fathered her children.

Koresh was a fucked up nut who molested kids and illegally sold guns. And he decided to murder his followers rather than man up and take the punishment he had coming.

 

[dblack]

Did anyone watch the WACO mini series on the Paramount (Spike) network?
To me it it made the Branch Davidians and David Koresh look like the victims of an out of control
federal law enforcement agents, specifically the ATF and the FBI.

He was a nutcase, and they had plenty of time to escape and they started the fire, its all on them. Wacko's with a pedophile leader and a storehouse of weapons.

It appears jack boots come in both red, and blue, varieties.

 

[JoeB131]

It appears jack boots come in both red, and blue, varieties.

Or we just can't work up a lot of sympathy for Crazy White People who belong to whacky cults.

I wonder why you Libertarian nuts don't show this much outrage when a black child is shot by a cop.

 

[dblack]

It appears jack boots come in both red, and blue, varieties.

Or we just can't work up a lot of sympathy for Crazy White People who belong to whacky cults.

I wonder why you Libertarian nuts don't show this much outrage when a black child is shot by a cop.

I know you don't read all my posts, Joe, but I do.

Do you like red, blue - or just the traditional black best?

 

[JoeB131]

I know you don't read all my posts, Joe, but I do.

Do you like red, blue - or just the traditional black best?

I like not having to share my streets with pedophile cultists with guns...

that's what I like.

 

[dblack]

I know you don't read all my posts, Joe, but I do.

Do you like red, blue - or just the traditional black best?

I like not having to share my streets with pedophile cultists with guns...

that's what I like.

Heh.. yeah, I know what you like. It's in every one of your posts. I honestly don't recall a thread on government overreach where you weren't cheering for the government.

 

[JoeB131]

Heh.. yeah, I know what you like. It's in every one of your posts. I honestly don't recall a thread on government overreach where you weren't cheering for the government.

So you missed all those times I criticized police departments for shooting unarmed black kids?

 

[dblack]

Heh.. yeah, I know what you like. It's in every one of your posts. I honestly don't recall a thread on government overreach where you weren't cheering for the government.

So you missed all those times I criticized police departments for shooting unarmed black kids?

I guess I did. I just mostly see you in threads like these, cheering for fascist crackdowns on people you don't like.

It just seems like that's what government has devolved to for a lot of people - a tool to get one over on other people.

 

[JoeB131]

I guess I did. I just mostly see you in threads like these, cheering for fascist crackdowns on people you don't like.

Yes, i really do dislike pedophile religious nuts with machine guns,f or some reason....

It just seems like that's what government has devolved to for a lot of people - a tool to get one over on other people.

Or we have it to protect us from each other.

Frankly, I want a government to protect us from people like David Koresh. I'm not sure why you don't.

But again, Koresh and his nuts offed themselves, not the government.

 

[dblack]

But again, Koresh and his nuts offed themselves, not the government.

Of course. The government was just there trying to talk them out of it. With incendiary grenades.

 

[MikeK]

So what? If that was the case, you get a lawyer and you argue it in court.

You obviously didn't read Dick Reavis' book, The Ashes of Waco, in which he exhaustively quotes Koresh's lawyer, Dick DeGuerin, who was the only private citizen afforded access to Koresh which was limited to one brief visit. The FBI denied any further access to DeGuerin, citing concern for DeGuerin's safety, which DeGuerin dismissed as subterfuge.

From the very beginning of that standoff Koresh's demand for access to the media, either directly or through his lawyer, was, except for that one brief visit, strenuously avoided. The Press (and the public in general) was confined to an area two full miles from the site of the standoff -- supposedly for their safety. The only thing they (and the public) knew about what was going on was what the FBI told them.

Dozens of reporters pleaded for access to Koresh by telephone, which was denied. This blanket of secrecy convinced Koresh that he would never have access to public opinion, whether via the media by telephone from behind the walls of the compound or in a court of Law. The pivotal question here is why was Koresh denied this access.

Are you not personally offended by it?

You don't go shooting at the LEO's serving it (a flawed warrant).

It seems that either you are some kind of LEO, or you're a textbook authoritarian personality, or you're both. I believe this because I know two New York City police officers who have candidly condemned the actions of the feds at Waco, both BATF and FBI/HRT (Hostage "Rescue" Team).

Going further; you might not be aware that the jury in a Texas state criminal court acquitted each of the Branch Davidians who admitted returning fire when the ATF stormed their residence. This acquittal was based on the fact that in accordance with Texas state law the ATF's actions were unlawful, excessively aggressive, and the Davidians had a right to defend their home against them.

JURY ACQUITS CULT MEMBERS OF MURDER IN WACO SHOOTOUT

The federal courts take a different view of the situation. So whichever point of view you happen to agree with will serve as an indicator of your personal orientation in the matter of civil rights and the rights of citizens in relation to the law-enforcement establishment.[/quote]

 

[MikeK]

So what? If that was the case, you get a lawyer and you argue it in court.

You don't go shooting at the LEO's serving it.

That depends entirely on the manner in which the warrant is being served. This is America -- not Saudi Arabia.

Your diatribes are directed at David Koresh. No other Branch Davidian is named in them, nor have you presented any specific criminal charges against any other. Add to that the fact that David Koresh could easily have been arrested during any of his regular visits to the Post Office and/or grocery store. There was absolutely no reason for the BATF to do what they did. The FBI knows that. Anyone with an average intellect, a sense of common decency and a belief in the fundamental principles of liberty knows that.

There is a reason why the issue of the Waco massacre continues to arise decade after decade. It was a terrible misuse of government's power over its citizens.