USMB Poll: Are you for or agaainst the Libya assault?

[NYcarbineer]

It's not a fucking war. Can we not just stick to facts instead of hysterical hyperbole?

I'm sorry but when you send cruise missiles and fighter jets into a country and choose sides, you are in a war. We can disagree on this without cussing each other out.

It is not a war. It is a UN sanctioned intervention... specifically to stop Gaddafi from bombing the crap out of his own people. That is not war... it is intervention. There is no way to implement a 'no fly zone' (as authorized by the UN) without taking out the structures that Gadaffi needs to either:

a. strike at the UN forces
b. strike at his own people

This is not rocket science, it is rational thought.

The Korean War was a UN sanctioned intervention. The two terms, war and intervention, are not mutually exclusive.

So again, why is this not a war? There's an armed rebellion in Libya. Is that not a war?

 

[Truthmatters]

Allowing people to be slaughtered proves nothing

Then you've changed your mind about Iraq, which I'm assuming you opposed?

Then we're wrong not to have American military in Darfur, and in the Congo?

Then we're wrong not to militarily intervene in the drug wars in Mexico?

Nope , Iraq was not asking for help from the UN to take their dictator out.

These people have done so.

This is the only way this works. If you have a people who have reached a point in their lives that they are willing to fight and die to achieve freedom for their country then you can aid them in their quest like we are aiding the Libyan people. You can not fight it for them BUT you can keep them from being slaughtered by their own military before they can overtake their dictator.

Think of the other nations in the ME that are facing the same dymanic. If we allowed Gadfi to merely blow the shit out of any Libyan who disagreed with his rule then most of the population of Libya would be dead in a week. Then the other guys would go "hey that worked and no one said anything" then you would have that repeted many more times.

This way Gadfi and all the others know that if they do resort to military might against civilians then they world would step in and crush their military.

Lots of people dont die, people seeking freedom become inspired to seek freedom and more dictators are heaved on the trash heap of history.

There are times for action in this world and times when actions would just not work.

This was wisely seen as a time for action by the world body.

 

[High_Gravity]

Allowing people to be slaughtered proves nothing

Then you've changed your mind about Iraq, which I'm assuming you opposed?

Then we're wrong not to have American military in Darfur, and in the Congo?

Then we're wrong not to militarily intervene in the drug wars in Mexico?

Nope , Iraq was not asking for help from the UN to take their dictator out.

These people have done so.This is the only way this works. If you have a people who have reached a point in their lives that they are willing to fight and die to achieve freedom for their country then you can aid them in their quest like we are aiding the Libyan people. You can not fight it for them BUT you can keep them from being slaughtered by their own military before they can overtake their dictator.

Think of the other nations in the ME that are facing the same dymanic. If we allowed Gadfi to merely blow the shit out of any Libyan who disagreed with his rule then most of the population of Libya would be dead in a week. Then the other guys would go "hey that worked and no one said anything" then you would have that repeted many more times.

This way Gadfi and all the others know that if they do resort to military might against civilians then they world would step in and crush their military.

Lots of people dont die, people seeking freedom become inspired to seek freedom and more dictators are heaved on the trash heap of history.

There are times for action in this world and times when actions would just not work.

This was wisely seen as a time for action by the world body.

Really? can you show me a copy of the letter from the Libyan people asking for US Cruise Missiles and fight jets to bomb the fuck out of their country?

 

[Dr.Drock]

Allowing people to be slaughtered proves nothing

Then you've changed your mind about Iraq, which I'm assuming you opposed?

Then we're wrong not to have American military in Darfur, and in the Congo?

Then we're wrong not to militarily intervene in the drug wars in Mexico?

Nope , Iraq was not asking for help from the UN to take their dictator out.

These people have done so.

This is the only way this works. If you have a people who have reached a point in their lives that they are willing to fight and die to achieve freedom for their country then you can aid them in their quest like we are aiding the Libyan people. You can not fight it for them BUT you can keep them from being slaughtered by their own military before they can overtake their dictator.

Think of the other nations in the ME that are facing the same dymanic. If we allowed Gadfi to merely blow the shit out of any Libyan who disagreed with his rule then most of the population of Libya would be dead in a week. Then the other guys would go "hey that worked and no one said anything" then you would have that repeted many more times.

This way Gadfi and all the others know that if they do resort to military might against civilians then they world would step in and crush their military.

Lots of people dont die, people seeking freedom become inspired to seek freedom and more dictators are heaved on the trash heap of history.

There are times for action in this world and times when actions would just not work.

This was wisely seen as a time for action by the world body.

Awfully convenient to ignore his 2 other points, Africa and Mexico.

Truth you really have to open your eyes sometimes. If we really gave a damn about doing the moral thing and saving civilians we'd be in a lot more countries where there's a lot more human suffering going on.

 

[California Girl]

I'm sorry but when you send cruise missiles and fighter jets into a country and choose sides, you are in a war. We can disagree on this without cussing each other out.

It is not a war. It is a UN sanctioned intervention... specifically to stop Gaddafi from bombing the crap out of his own people. That is not war... it is intervention. There is no way to implement a 'no fly zone' (as authorized by the UN) without taking out the structures that Gadaffi needs to either:

a. strike at the UN forces
b. strike at his own people

This is not rocket science, it is rational thought.

I'm looking at differently from the perspective of a Military member, if I was a fighter pilot and you are asking me to fly over Libyan air space to risk my life and bomb the fucking shit out of them, it is a war to me.

That is not what they are doing. If it was, it would be war. But they aren't, so it isn't. They are going after very specific targets. Those targets are legitimately authorized by the UN to create a 'no fly zone'. More importantly, the second part of that resolution gives consent for international forces to preemptively take out threats to civilians... and that is what they are doing.

Yesterday, a Brit mission was called off because there were civilians in the area. That mission would have gone ahead in a war... it did not.... because it ain't a war.

 

[Truthmatters]

Libyan Rebels, Invoking UN, May Ask West for Airstrikes

They asked

 

[NYcarbineer]

Truth is going to say that all that genocide in those other countries is fine because the UN hasn't told us to intervene.

It's the UN that decides morals people, come on.

The UN put peacekeepers into the Congo.

 

[VaYank5150]

Then you've changed your mind about Iraq, which I'm assuming you opposed?

Then we're wrong not to have American military in Darfur, and in the Congo?

Then we're wrong not to militarily intervene in the drug wars in Mexico?

Nope , Iraq was not asking for help from the UN to take their dictator out.

These people have done so.This is the only way this works. If you have a people who have reached a point in their lives that they are willing to fight and die to achieve freedom for their country then you can aid them in their quest like we are aiding the Libyan people. You can not fight it for them BUT you can keep them from being slaughtered by their own military before they can overtake their dictator.

Think of the other nations in the ME that are facing the same dymanic. If we allowed Gadfi to merely blow the shit out of any Libyan who disagreed with his rule then most of the population of Libya would be dead in a week. Then the other guys would go "hey that worked and no one said anything" then you would have that repeted many more times.

This way Gadfi and all the others know that if they do resort to military might against civilians then they world would step in and crush their military.

Lots of people dont die, people seeking freedom become inspired to seek freedom and more dictators are heaved on the trash heap of history.

There are times for action in this world and times when actions would just not work.

This was wisely seen as a time for action by the world body.

Really? can you show me a copy of the letter from the Libyan people asking for US Cruise Missiles and fight jets to bomb the fuck out of their country?

And after you send that, could you please tell me if those same people are planning to help pay for out "actions"?

 

[tigerbob]

Then you've changed your mind about Iraq, which I'm assuming you opposed?

Then we're wrong not to have American military in Darfur, and in the Congo?

Then we're wrong not to militarily intervene in the drug wars in Mexico?

Nope , Iraq was not asking for help from the UN to take their dictator out.

These people have done so.This is the only way this works. If you have a people who have reached a point in their lives that they are willing to fight and die to achieve freedom for their country then you can aid them in their quest like we are aiding the Libyan people. You can not fight it for them BUT you can keep them from being slaughtered by their own military before they can overtake their dictator.

Think of the other nations in the ME that are facing the same dymanic. If we allowed Gadfi to merely blow the shit out of any Libyan who disagreed with his rule then most of the population of Libya would be dead in a week. Then the other guys would go "hey that worked and no one said anything" then you would have that repeted many more times.

This way Gadfi and all the others know that if they do resort to military might against civilians then they world would step in and crush their military.

Lots of people dont die, people seeking freedom become inspired to seek freedom and more dictators are heaved on the trash heap of history.

There are times for action in this world and times when actions would just not work.

This was wisely seen as a time for action by the world body.

Really? can you show me a copy of the letter from the Libyan people asking for US Cruise Missiles and fight jets to bomb the fuck out of their country?

No, but I can show you...

"The Libyan ambassador to the UN, who is one of Colonel Gaddafi's oldest friends, denounced the embattled leader on Friday night and urged the world to punish him."

Libya's UN ambassador denounces Gaddafi - Telegraph

Does that count?

EDIT: I realize of course that he doesn't use the specific words "Bomb the fuck out of my country" but I'm assuming you were paraphrasing.

 

[Truthmatters]

Some actions will produce the results you seek, sometimes actions wont.


I will admitt their are times when the UN should have acted when they didnt but that in no way means they should forever never act again because of past mistakes.

 

[High_Gravity]

Nope , Iraq was not asking for help from the UN to take their dictator out.

These people have done so.This is the only way this works. If you have a people who have reached a point in their lives that they are willing to fight and die to achieve freedom for their country then you can aid them in their quest like we are aiding the Libyan people. You can not fight it for them BUT you can keep them from being slaughtered by their own military before they can overtake their dictator.

Think of the other nations in the ME that are facing the same dymanic. If we allowed Gadfi to merely blow the shit out of any Libyan who disagreed with his rule then most of the population of Libya would be dead in a week. Then the other guys would go "hey that worked and no one said anything" then you would have that repeted many more times.

This way Gadfi and all the others know that if they do resort to military might against civilians then they world would step in and crush their military.

Lots of people dont die, people seeking freedom become inspired to seek freedom and more dictators are heaved on the trash heap of history.

There are times for action in this world and times when actions would just not work.

This was wisely seen as a time for action by the world body.

Really? can you show me a copy of the letter from the Libyan people asking for US Cruise Missiles and fight jets to bomb the fuck out of their country?

No, but I can show you...

"The Libyan ambassador to the UN, who is one of Colonel Gaddafi's oldest friends, denounced the embattled leader on Friday night and urged the world to punish him."

Libya's UN ambassador denounces Gaddafi - Telegraph

Does that count?

Ok thats 1 person, where is the official signed notarized letter from the Libyan people asking for US Cruise Missiles and fighter jets? there were several ex diplomats and ambassadors asking us to get involved in Iraq too, so that must jusify that right?

 

[Truthmatters]

Nope , Iraq was not asking for help from the UN to take their dictator out.

These people have done so.This is the only way this works. If you have a people who have reached a point in their lives that they are willing to fight and die to achieve freedom for their country then you can aid them in their quest like we are aiding the Libyan people. You can not fight it for them BUT you can keep them from being slaughtered by their own military before they can overtake their dictator.

Think of the other nations in the ME that are facing the same dymanic. If we allowed Gadfi to merely blow the shit out of any Libyan who disagreed with his rule then most of the population of Libya would be dead in a week. Then the other guys would go "hey that worked and no one said anything" then you would have that repeted many more times.

This way Gadfi and all the others know that if they do resort to military might against civilians then they world would step in and crush their military.

Lots of people dont die, people seeking freedom become inspired to seek freedom and more dictators are heaved on the trash heap of history.

There are times for action in this world and times when actions would just not work.

This was wisely seen as a time for action by the world body.

Really? can you show me a copy of the letter from the Libyan people asking for US Cruise Missiles and fight jets to bomb the fuck out of their country?

And after you send that, could you please tell me if those same people are planning to help pay for out "actions"?

How about we send teh bill straight to the oil companies who have gained the most from gadfi being allowed to bully his people for 30 years.

 

[NYcarbineer]

It is not a war. It is a UN sanctioned intervention... specifically to stop Gaddafi from bombing the crap out of his own people. That is not war... it is intervention. There is no way to implement a 'no fly zone' (as authorized by the UN) without taking out the structures that Gadaffi needs to either:

a. strike at the UN forces
b. strike at his own people

This is not rocket science, it is rational thought.

I'm looking at differently from the perspective of a Military member, if I was a fighter pilot and you are asking me to fly over Libyan air space to risk my life and bomb the fucking shit out of them, it is a war to me.

That is not what they are doing. If it was, it would be war. But they aren't, so it isn't. They are going after very specific targets. Those targets are legitimately authorized by the UN to create a 'no fly zone'. More importantly, the second part of that resolution gives consent for international forces to preemptively take out threats to civilians... and that is what they are doing.

Yesterday, a Brit mission was called off because there were civilians in the area. That mission would have gone ahead in a war... it did not.... because it ain't a war.

So if any attacks in Iraq or Afghanistan have ever been called off because of danger to civilians,

then those conflicts can't be called wars?

That's absurd.

 

[High_Gravity]

Libyan Rebels, Invoking UN, May Ask West for Airstrikes

They asked

How much do we really know about these rebels? what is their agenda?

 

[Dr.Drock]

Some actions will produce the results you seek, sometimes actions wont.


I will admitt their are times when the UN should have acted when they didnt but that in no way means they should forever never act again because of past mistakes.

Why does Obama need orders from the UN? If he sees a dictator brutalizing his own people why doesn't he just send over his friendly cruise missiles to fix the problem?

It's about morals right?

 

[tigerbob]

Really? can you show me a copy of the letter from the Libyan people asking for US Cruise Missiles and fight jets to bomb the fuck out of their country?

No, but I can show you...

"The Libyan ambassador to the UN, who is one of Colonel Gaddafi's oldest friends, denounced the embattled leader on Friday night and urged the world to punish him."

Libya's UN ambassador denounces Gaddafi - Telegraph

Does that count?

Ok thats 1 person, where is the official signed notarized letter from the Libyan people asking for US Cruise Missiles and fighter jets? there were several ex diplomats and ambassadors asking us to get involved in Iraq too, so that must jusify that right?

Fair enough. If that's the only thing that will convince you I will admit defeat.

 

[Truthmatters]

In rebel east, Libyans call for more foreign help - Arab News

 

[Immanuel]

I won't criticize the President over this. At least not yet.

I support our men and women in harms way. BTW: I understand a fighter went down this morning or was it yesterday. The crew was recovered safely.

U.S. F-15 fighter jet down in Libya, crew "safe" - CBS News

(CBS/AP) Updated at 7:35 a.m. Eastern.

A U.S. Air Force F-15 Strike Eagle jet has crashed in Libya, the U.S. military said Tuesday. Both crew members ejected

one was safely recovered and the U.S. military was on a mission to recover the other one.

Vince Crawley, a spokesman for the Africa Command, says the crash could have been due to a mechanical failure.

"We do not believe it was shot down," Crawley said Tuesday.

I am certain I do not know enough at this point to decide whether or not I am for or against the assault. I will not be happy though if we send in ground troops and even less happy if this ends up with us being the ones left holding the bag when the rest of this "coalition" pulls out.

Immie

 

[tigerbob]

Have to go to work now, which is a pity since that was just getting interesting.

 

[Two Thumbs]

If we declared we were going to war to bring the criminal gaddafi to justice, and made it clear we only wanted him, and all other terrorists, then I would have been behind this.

right now, this war is unconstitutional. The UN doesn't decide when we go to war. The Pres asks Congress and Congress votes.

Aside from that. I think it's past time that we learn the Arabs will have to fix themselves. They seem to like war and the only thing that can replace gaddafi now is a theocracy, b/c islam is the only organisation over there. Unless our unions back thier talk with action. THEN, it will b/c a socialist hell hole.