Understanding the Mentality and World View of the Christian Fundamentalist

[BluePhantom]

Jefferson felt the same way which is why he created his own version of the bible editing out everything that he believed to be irrelevant.

Yes, as a theist it is a difficult task .

The best I can do in that regard is to study my ass off, consider all perspectives and interpretations, learn about languages and translations, learn about history, learn about ancient cultures and the perspectives of the people who probably wrote these books, think about it deeply, and then meditate upon it and open myself to what my spirit tells me to be true.

That has left me with a very unique and unorthodox theology that does not fit well with modern or traditional Christian thought. But it is what God has revealed to me through my spirit and thus it is between God and I. I think at this point, given the problems with scripture we have been discussing, that's probably the best anyone can do. It strikes me that it is somewhat similar to DT's concept of spiritual atheism in the sense of opening yourself up and allowing your heart/spirit/whatever you wish to call it, direct you. Whether it is God that motivates and directs that or an internal spiritual force...well...that's just a question of how we choose to look at it

 

[sealybobo]

This thread is more relevant than ever after the Duggart family revelation

Meh....they are crackpots and have always been crackpots. Not very loving and Christian of me to say that, I realize, but I never claimed perfection.

No, that is the Christian thing to do, to call out those that bring shame on your religion.

Would you excuse a pedophile simply because he shared your faith or would you hold him accountable?

Essentially that is what is happening in the other thread. The extremist rightwingers are making excuses for a pedophile and yet they blame "liberals" for a "loss of morality" in this nation.

When they put partisanship above the safety of small children that is the height of immorality IMO.

Remember that conservative mark Foley? He passed lots of anti gay legislation yet was molestng his young male pages.

 

[Dot Com]

This thread is more relevant than ever after the Duggart family revelation

Meh....they are crackpots and have always been crackpots. Not very loving and Christian of me to say that, I realize, but I never claimed perfection.

No, that is the Christian thing to do, to call out those that bring shame on your religion.

Would you excuse a pedophile simply because he shared your faith or would you hold him accountable?

Essentially that is what is happening in the other thread. The extremist rightwingers are making excuses for a pedophile and yet they blame "liberals" for a "loss of morality" in this nation.

When they put partisanship above the safety of small children that is the height of immorality IMO.

Remember that conservative mark Foley? He passed lots of anti gay legislation yet was molestng his young male pages.

remember Bush's campaign manager? Bush Campaign Chief and Former RNC Chair Ken Mehlman I m Gay - The Atlantic

 

[BluePhantom]

This thread is more relevant than ever after the Duggart family revelation

Meh....they are crackpots and have always been crackpots. Not very loving and Christian of me to say that, I realize, but I never claimed perfection.

No, that is the Christian thing to do, to call out those that bring shame on your religion.

Would you excuse a pedophile simply because he shared your faith or would you hold him accountable?

Essentially that is what is happening in the other thread. The extremist rightwingers are making excuses for a pedophile and yet they blame "liberals" for a "loss of morality" in this nation.

When they put partisanship above the safety of small children that is the height of immorality IMO.

Remember that conservative mark Foley? He passed lots of anti gay legislation yet was molestng his young male pages.

The conservatives are really at a disadvantage on stuff like that. See here's the deal. In reality, Republicans are just as sexually twisted as anyone else. The problem is the conservatives portray themselves as so holy that when they get busted they look ten times worse. When someone from the left get's busted (a'la Anthony Weiner) they just look like a pervert. When a conservative does it they look like both a pervert and a hypocrite.

 

[sealybobo]

Thank you, I will. The bible has been edited to suit the powers that be IMO. Which means that "Inerrant Word of God" is anything but. There is a website that graphically illustrate over 400 contradictions. Even when they weren't editing it they were still getting it wrong!

Well there are definitely contradictions but there are also those that seem to be contradictions but really are not. This is because the Bible was written over a couple thousand years and as society developed, things that had application before, no longer did and were replaced by something else. Also, things that did not exist earlier in Hebrew society came around later and since there was no scripture to address it, they had to create some.

Also, there are things that create apparent contradictions but only if you miss the context or target audience. For example, Leviticus was a legal contract between God and the Jews. When you compare the wording of Leviticus to legal documents of a similar age, scholars note that it is written in what was legal language. So Leviticus is actually a contract. God gives his conditions of the contract to the Jews. This was the Law. In exchange for following the Law, Jews were given and allowed to live in the Holy Land. But what this means is that the contract is limited to those terms, and actually Torah spells this out. So the Law only applies if you are Jewish and living in the Holy Land. If you do not meet those two qualifications, you are not part of the contract and thus you do not have to follow the Law. This is why Jews under Roman occupation who lived outside of Judea were not bound to things like Kosher Law. They were free to practice it if they chose but they were not required to as they were not in the Holy Land.

So later scripture sometimes says something that seems to contradict Leviticus, but in reality it doesn't because the later scripture is targeted at a different group...Gentiles, for example, who are not bound by the Law. However, there are indeed a LOT of contradictions that are absolutely valid...meaning they are truly contradictions.

To make it even worse, out of the 5,400 or so ancient manuscripts of the Bible we have available to us, scholars have not found any two that are completely identical. Most of the variances are totally irrelevant: spelling mistakes, using "also" in place of "as well as", etc. Some of them though are absolutely critical and have a major impact on the theology of Christianity. What a mess, huh?

I generally am of the opinion that the very first time these books were written down they may have been the inspired word of God. But if they were, God didn't seem terribly interested in preserving them, because it's been fucked up ever since. It makes it very difficult, as a theist, to figure out what came from Jesus and what was just bullshit that someone tossed in.

Jefferson felt the same way which is why he created his own version of the bible editing out everything that he believed to be irrelevant.

Yes, as a theist it is a difficult task and it raises another question.

If it is difficult for a devout theist like yourself to figure out what is right given all of the contradictions why is that supposedly better than an atheist just deciding for themselves that following the golden rule and always being true and faithful to themselves and their family and friends is all they need?

Personally it is a great deal less time consuming to just stick to those basic principles. They haven't failed me yet.

Do you really need a bible to know fucking your neighbors wife is wrong?

You might be surprised. I know several people who think the part in the Lord's Prayer about "...forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us..." is talking about people who come onto your property without permission. I am not kidding either. I never ceased to be amazed at how stupid people can be.

My buddies mom with big tits showed us how you are committing adultery even if you think about lusting a woman who's not your wife. So even as a kid I knew better because I jacked off all the time thinking of her.

And I know her sons jacked off after knowing this rule. How did they jack off thinking about Christy Brinkley when she was married to billy Joel knowing a god is watching and doesnt approve? How could they get off unless they selectively pick and choose what rules to break?

And notice only a couple commandments are even illegal. Murder and theft. Maybe religion was designed to police people when no one is around? Dont steal. Not just so you dont get caught. Feel guilty about it.

I cant explain why but I dont bang another guys wife because of the golden rule. Plus dont want to get murdered.

 

[sealybobo]

This thread is more relevant than ever after the Duggart family revelation

Meh....they are crackpots and have always been crackpots. Not very loving and Christian of me to say that, I realize, but I never claimed perfection.

No, that is the Christian thing to do, to call out those that bring shame on your religion.

Would you excuse a pedophile simply because he shared your faith or would you hold him accountable?

Essentially that is what is happening in the other thread. The extremist rightwingers are making excuses for a pedophile and yet they blame "liberals" for a "loss of morality" in this nation.

When they put partisanship above the safety of small children that is the height of immorality IMO.

Remember that conservative mark Foley? He passed lots of anti gay legislation yet was molestng his young male pages.

remember Bush's campaign manager? Bush Campaign Chief and Former RNC Chair Ken Mehlman I m Gay - The Atlantic

Remember michelle bachmans husband?

 

[BluePhantom]

My buddies mom with big tits showed us how you are committing adultery even if you think about lusting a woman who's not your wife. So even as a kid I knew better because I jacked off all the time thinking of her.

And I know her sons jacked off after knowing this rule. How did they jack off thinking about Christy Brinkley when she was married to billy Joel knowing a god is watching and doesnt approve? How could they get off unless they selectively pick and choose what rules to break?

Well there is some Biblical scripture about that, but not much. A lot of that 'merely thinking about it is as bad as doing it' thinking comes from an apocryphal book, called the Shepherd of Hermas, which was an incredibly popular book in antiquity and damned near made it into the Bible. It was eventually thrown out, but it had a huge impact as far as church traditions and the development of church dogma regarding sexuality. You should look it up. It's a fascinating read and really gives one a great understanding of how people thought in antiquity and how that thinking contributed to societal norms that were passed down to the present day in some cases.

 

[sealybobo]

Perhaps theists and religion is evoking. The you'll burn in hell approach just isnt convincing anymore. Certainly modern educated people aren't taking the talking snake stories although I have theist friends who have admitted they take all those stories as matter of fact.

Well a lot of modern translations are not using the word "hell" anymore, but are using the original words. That's a great thing. I cannot understate just how great of a thing that is because it's a major step toward getting rid of later traditions that are based upon fear and manipulation and getting back to what scripture actually says.

There will always be those who believe in the talking snakes...but what can you do? Confucius said 'To speak to man who cannot understand is to let one's words go to waste. To speak not to a man who can understand is to let a man go to waste. The gentleman (self-actualized individual) let's neither words nor men go to waste'. Confucius was an asshole, for the most part, but he does have a point on that one.

Think about how much more gullible uneducated superstitious primitive naive we were 500 years ago. Now imagine 500 years from now. Will the modern day religions still be around? Will we have a christian vs Muslim holy war? Aren't we sort of in one now?

I wish we could hit the reset button. Why do we have to follow Jesus mohammad moses or Joseph smith?

 

[sealybobo]

My buddies mom with big tits showed us how you are committing adultery even if you think about lusting a woman who's not your wife. So even as a kid I knew better because I jacked off all the time thinking of her.

And I know her sons jacked off after knowing this rule. How did they jack off thinking about Christy Brinkley when she was married to billy Joel knowing a god is watching and doesnt approve? How could they get off unless they selectively pick and choose what rules to break?

Well there is some Biblical scripture about that, but not much. A lot of that 'merely thinking about it is as bad as doing it' thinking comes from an apocryphal book, called the Shepherd of Hermas, which was an incredibly popular book in antiquity and damned near made it into the Bible. It was eventually thrown out, but it had a huge impact as far as church traditions and the development of church dogma regarding sexuality. You should look it up. It's a fascinating read and really gives one a great understanding of how people thought in antiquity and how that thinking contributed to societal norms that were passed down to the present day in some cases.

She showed me this in the ten commandments. Why was this christian showing us something in the moses old testament. Right? Isnt the ten command old test?

 

[BluePhantom]

Think about how much more gullible uneducated superstitious primitive naive we were 500 years ago. Now imagine 500 years from now. Will the modern day religions still be around? Will we have a christian vs Muslim holy war? Aren't we sort of in one now?

I wish we could hit the reset button. Why do we have to follow Jesus mohammad moses or Joseph smith?

Well the Muslims and Jews have been fighting for thousands of years because of the problem between Ishmael and Isaac. That was somewhere around 2,000 BCE or thereabouts, if it ever happened at all, and they have been fighting ever since. So I don't think it is going to end any time soon. It's been 4,000 years and they are still going strong.

You realize that's what the fighting is all about, right....Abraham, Ishmael, and Isaac?

 

[BluePhantom]

My buddies mom with big tits showed us how you are committing adultery even if you think about lusting a woman who's not your wife. So even as a kid I knew better because I jacked off all the time thinking of her.

And I know her sons jacked off after knowing this rule. How did they jack off thinking about Christy Brinkley when she was married to billy Joel knowing a god is watching and doesnt approve? How could they get off unless they selectively pick and choose what rules to break?

Well there is some Biblical scripture about that, but not much. A lot of that 'merely thinking about it is as bad as doing it' thinking comes from an apocryphal book, called the Shepherd of Hermas, which was an incredibly popular book in antiquity and damned near made it into the Bible. It was eventually thrown out, but it had a huge impact as far as church traditions and the development of church dogma regarding sexuality. You should look it up. It's a fascinating read and really gives one a great understanding of how people thought in antiquity and how that thinking contributed to societal norms that were passed down to the present day in some cases.

She showed me this in the ten commandments. Why was this christian showing us something in the moses old testament. Right? Isnt the ten command old test?

Well that's not what it says in the 10 Commandments (which is actually a mistranslation...better would be the 10 Strong Suggestions ). She was probably referring to the commandment about coveting thy neighbor's wife, but that's not what that is about. That is about jealousy, not lust and it's not limited to the wife. You shall not covey thy neighbor's wife, nor his ass, nor his house, nor anything that belongs to him. It's about envy, not lust

 

[sealybobo]

Jefferson felt the same way which is why he created his own version of the bible editing out everything that he believed to be irrelevant.

Yes, as a theist it is a difficult task .

The best I can do in that regard is to study my ass off, consider all perspectives and interpretations, learn about languages and translations, learn about history, learn about ancient cultures and the perspectives of the people who probably wrote these books, think about it deeply, and then meditate upon it and open myself to what my spirit tells me to be true.

That has left me with a very unique and unorthodox theology that does not fit well with modern or traditional Christian thought. But it is what God has revealed to me through my spirit and thus it is between God and I. I think at this point, given the problems with scripture we have been discussing, that's probably the best anyone can do. It strikes me that it is somewhat similar to DT's concept of spiritual atheism in the sense of opening yourself up and allowing your heart/spirit/whatever you wish to call it, direct you. Whether it is God that motivates and directs that or an internal spiritual force...well...that's just a question of how we choose to look at it

It all boils down to you can't imagine all this happened without some kind of creator. But then you also believe you have a relationship with it and it cares. And hides from us and tests us and rewards us and bla bla.

While you are a wonderful person that's not the real world. The real world is full of dumb sheep. Really I believe we can do much better if we wise up. Think avatar. Lower the population. We are a parasite on this planet and we dont have to be. We dont have to fight wars. We dont have to have poverty. Our oceans shouldn't be full of plastic and over fished. This is my scripture. Not worried about me as much as the human race.

Athiests care that humanity lives forever. It'd be a shame if we died out like martians did billions of years before life started on earth. Theists worry about themselves living forever.

Sorry I'm high.

 

[sealybobo]

Think about how much more gullible uneducated superstitious primitive naive we were 500 years ago. Now imagine 500 years from now. Will the modern day religions still be around? Will we have a christian vs Muslim holy war? Aren't we sort of in one now?

I wish we could hit the reset button. Why do we have to follow Jesus mohammad moses or Joseph smith?

Well the Muslims and Jews have been fighting for thousands of years because of the problem between Ishmael and Isaac. That was somewhere around 2,000 BCE or thereabouts, if it ever happened at all, and they have been fighting ever since. So I don't think it is going to end any time soon. It's been 4,000 years and they are still going strong.

You realize that's what the fighting is all about, right....Abraham, Ishmael, and Isaac?

I have heard the story before but would love to hear it again.

 

[sealybobo]

This thread is more relevant than ever after the Duggart family revelation

Meh....they are crackpots and have always been crackpots. Not very loving and Christian of me to say that, I realize, but I never claimed perfection.

No, that is the Christian thing to do, to call out those that bring shame on your religion.

Would you excuse a pedophile simply because he shared your faith or would you hold him accountable?

Essentially that is what is happening in the other thread. The extremist rightwingers are making excuses for a pedophile and yet they blame "liberals" for a "loss of morality" in this nation.

When they put partisanship above the safety of small children that is the height of immorality IMO.

Remember that conservative mark Foley? He passed lots of anti gay legislation yet was molestng his young male pages.

The conservatives are really at a disadvantage on stuff like that. See here's the deal. In reality, Republicans are just as sexually twisted as anyone else. The problem is the conservatives portray themselves as so holy that when they get busted they look ten times worse. When someone from the left get's busted (a'la Anthony Weiner) they just look like a pervert. When a conservative does it they look like both a pervert and a hypocrite.

Weiner and clinton had relations with adult females not boys. But yes it looks very hypocritical when an anti gay GOP is found to be gay.

 

[sealybobo]

Think about how much more gullible uneducated superstitious primitive naive we were 500 years ago. Now imagine 500 years from now. Will the modern day religions still be around? Will we have a christian vs Muslim holy war? Aren't we sort of in one now?

I wish we could hit the reset button. Why do we have to follow Jesus mohammad moses or Joseph smith?

Well the Muslims and Jews have been fighting for thousands of years because of the problem between Ishmael and Isaac. That was somewhere around 2,000 BCE or thereabouts, if it ever happened at all, and they have been fighting ever since. So I don't think it is going to end any time soon. It's been 4,000 years and they are still going strong.

You realize that's what the fighting is all about, right....Abraham, Ishmael, and Isaac?

Come on! I'm hoping with the internet and freedom we should be over it in maybe 300 years from now? 400? We will be so much smarter in 500 years I hope you are wrong.

I think we are at a turning point. An enlightenment. Or will we face a ww3 against China Russia north Korea and the middle east. Think we will win this time? Do you know how many Chinese troops they have?

 

[BluePhantom]

It all boils down to you can't imagine all this happened without some kind of creator. But then you also believe you have a relationship with it and it cares. And hides from us and tests us and rewards us and bla bla.

Well not exactly. I am open to the possibility that God is a myth and religion is a bunch of horseshit. It's just not the "truth" my spirit has led me to. I don't think God hides from us or tests us or rewards us. We do that just fine ourselves. I think God grants the opportunities in life for each person to get what they call forth. That's the really tricky thing....it's not what you want, it's what you call forth. Odd as it sounds, some people call forth turmoil in their lives. Years and years ago, when I was young and stupid, I got a DUI. I didn't want a DUI and I didn't ask for one, but I sure called one forth by acting the fool and driving when I shouldn't have. Does that make sense?

While you are a wonderful person that's not the real world. The real world is full of dumb sheep. Really I believe we can do much better if we wise up.

No argument there. Remember the guys I talked about earlier that think that according to the Lord's Prayer, fucking your neighbor's wife is just fine so long as you forgive them for walking on your lawn.

Think avatar. Lower the population. We are a parasite on this planet and we dont have to be. We dont have to fight wars. We dont have to have poverty. Our oceans shouldn't be full of plastic and over fished.

No, but that is what we are choosing. Wars, poverty, famine, pollution....none of that stuff exists because of religion or the Republicans or the Democrats or any of that shit. It exists because we, as a species, choose it. This is why I am pro-choice on abortion even though I think abortion is a terrible thing in most cases. Abortion will not go away through laws. It will go away when we, as a society, choose something else. We cannot advance as a society without the freedom to collectively make that choice. I believe someday abortion will be a thing of the past but not because it is illegal. It will be because society has found a better way and chosen that way. The same is true of war, pollution, poverty, etc. Someday, we will choose something better...I have faith in that.

 

[BluePhantom]

Think about how much more gullible uneducated superstitious primitive naive we were 500 years ago. Now imagine 500 years from now. Will the modern day religions still be around? Will we have a christian vs Muslim holy war? Aren't we sort of in one now?

I wish we could hit the reset button. Why do we have to follow Jesus mohammad moses or Joseph smith?

Well the Muslims and Jews have been fighting for thousands of years because of the problem between Ishmael and Isaac. That was somewhere around 2,000 BCE or thereabouts, if it ever happened at all, and they have been fighting ever since. So I don't think it is going to end any time soon. It's been 4,000 years and they are still going strong.

You realize that's what the fighting is all about, right....Abraham, Ishmael, and Isaac?

I have heard the story before but would love to hear it again.

Well the short version is that God promised Abraham that he and his wife would have a son and his son would be the father of kings and his line would be given the Holy Land. But Abraham's wife, Sarah, was an old woman past child-bearing years. So Abraham and Sarah thought it impossible for them to have a child and for years they didn't. Finally, Sarah convinced Abraham to force a child by sleeping with her servant, Hagar. Hagar bore a son, named Ishmael. Now according to ancient law, Ishmael would have been considered Sarah's legal son despite the fact that he was born of Hagar.

Then, Sarah got pregnant by Abraham and gave birth to Isaac. So now we have a big problem. Who is the son God spoke of? Ishmael, the first legal son of Abraham and Sarah, or Isaac, the first biological son of Abraham and Sarah? Well the descendants of Ishmael are the Arabs and Persians and they eventually became the Muslims, after Muhammad came along and organized them into a structured religion. The descendants of Isaac are the Jews. So the fighting is about which line was the one God talked about and was promised the Holy Land. Muslims argue it was the line of Ishmael because he was Abraham and Sarah's first legal son and therefore, the Holy Land was promised to them. Jews argue it was the line of Isaac because he was Abraham and Sarah's first biological son and therefore, the Holy Land was promised to them.

Christians side with the Jews because Christianity is an offshoot of Judaism. Islam is considered another offshoot of Judaism because they share the same traditional history right up Abraham, Ishmael, and Isaac and at that point they begin to diverge.

They have been killing each other over it for 4,000 years...I don't see it stopping any time soon. But...yeah...believe it or not...that's what the fighting is all about.

 

[sealybobo]

Think about how much more gullible uneducated superstitious primitive naive we were 500 years ago. Now imagine 500 years from now. Will the modern day religions still be around? Will we have a christian vs Muslim holy war? Aren't we sort of in one now?

I wish we could hit the reset button. Why do we have to follow Jesus mohammad moses or Joseph smith?

Well the Muslims and Jews have been fighting for thousands of years because of the problem between Ishmael and Isaac. That was somewhere around 2,000 BCE or thereabouts, if it ever happened at all, and they have been fighting ever since. So I don't think it is going to end any time soon. It's been 4,000 years and they are still going strong.

You realize that's what the fighting is all about, right....Abraham, Ishmael, and Isaac?

Watch the bible ad on nbc

 

[sealybobo]

It all boils down to you can't imagine all this happened without some kind of creator. But then you also believe you have a relationship with it and it cares. And hides from us and tests us and rewards us and bla bla.

Well not exactly. I am open to the possibility that God is a myth and religion is a bunch of horseshit. It's just not the "truth" my spirit has led me to. I don't think God hides from us or tests us or rewards us. We do that just fine ourselves. I think God grants the opportunities in life for each person to get what they call forth. That's the really tricky thing....it's not what you want, it's what you call forth. Odd as it sounds, some people call forth turmoil in their lives. Years and years ago, when I was young and stupid, I got a DUI. I didn't want a DUI and I didn't ask for one, but I sure called one forth by acting the fool and driving when I shouldn't have. Does that make sense?

While you are a wonderful person that's not the real world. The real world is full of dumb sheep. Really I believe we can do much better if we wise up.

No argument there. Remember the guys I talked about earlier that think that according to the Lord's Prayer, fucking your neighbor's wife is just fine so long as you forgive them for walking on your lawn.

Think avatar. Lower the population. We are a parasite on this planet and we dont have to be. We dont have to fight wars. We dont have to have poverty. Our oceans shouldn't be full of plastic and over fished.

No, but that is what we are choosing. Wars, poverty, famine, pollution....none of that stuff exists because of religion or the Republicans or the Democrats or any of that shit. It exists because we, as a species, choose it. This is why I am pro-choice on abortion even though I think abortion is a terrible thing in most cases. Abortion will not go away through laws. It will go away when we, as a society, choose something else. We cannot advance as a society without the freedom to collectively make that choice. I believe someday abortion will be a thing of the past but not because it is illegal. It will be because society has found a better way and chosen that way. The same is true of war, pollution, poverty, etc. Someday, we will choose something better...I have faith in that.

What did the retarded kid or kid with cancer that dies at 3 years old do?

 

[sealybobo]

Think about how much more gullible uneducated superstitious primitive naive we were 500 years ago. Now imagine 500 years from now. Will the modern day religions still be around? Will we have a christian vs Muslim holy war? Aren't we sort of in one now?

I wish we could hit the reset button. Why do we have to follow Jesus mohammad moses or Joseph smith?

Well the Muslims and Jews have been fighting for thousands of years because of the problem between Ishmael and Isaac. That was somewhere around 2,000 BCE or thereabouts, if it ever happened at all, and they have been fighting ever since. So I don't think it is going to end any time soon. It's been 4,000 years and they are still going strong.

You realize that's what the fighting is all about, right....Abraham, Ishmael, and Isaac?

I have heard the story before but would love to hear it again.

Well the short version is that God promised Abraham that he and his wife would have a son and his son would be the father of kings and his line would be given the Holy Land. But Abraham's wife, Sarah, was an old woman past child-bearing years. So Abraham and Sarah thought it impossible for them to have a child and for years they didn't. Finally, Sarah convinced Abraham to force a child by sleeping with her servant, Hagar. Hagar bore a son, named Ishmael. Now according to ancient law, Ishmael would have been considered Sarah's legal son despite the fact that he was born of Hagar.

Then, Sarah got pregnant by Abraham and gave birth to Isaac. So now we have a big problem. Who is the son God spoke of? Ishmael, the first legal son of Abraham and Sarah, or Isaac, the first biological son of Abraham and Sarah? Well the descendants of Ishmael are the Arabs and Persians and they eventually became the Muslims, after Muhammad came along and organized them into a structured religion. The descendants of Isaac are the Jews. So the fighting is about which line was the one God talked about and was promised the Holy Land. Muslims argue it was the line of Ishmael because he was Abraham and Sarah's first legal son and therefore, the Holy Land was promised to them. Jews argue it was the line of Isaac because he was Abraham and Sarah's first biological son and therefore, the Holy Land was promised to them.

Christians side with the Jews because Christianity is an offshoot of Judaism. Islam is considered another offshoot of Judaism because they share the same traditional history right up Abraham, Ishmael, and Isaac and at that point they begin to diverge.

They have been killing each other over it for 4,000 years...I don't see it stopping any time soon. But...yeah...believe it or not...that's what the fighting is all about.

Fascinating. Yes I did hear that before.

Where did Aryans Greeks Mexicans asians come from? I heard that story before and thought that was the one you were going to tell. This guy who believes in ancient aliens told me how all the races came to be.