Zone1 There's no rational, reasoned argument for a ban on AR15s (2)

[BoostedHayabusa]

Maybe you'll like my new one better but Trump still won the 2020 election either way

Same location as before...

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Sure there is.
-It is suitable for every traditionally legal purpose there is for a firearm.
-There are few firearms better suited for self defense within the home than an AR carbine or pistol in a major pistol caliber.
Thus:
If there is a "need" for any firearm, the AR15 fills it.

There are scores of other firearms more than adequate for SD; firearms far better suited than an AR 15.

And again, there's no rational, reasoned argument in support of possessing an AR 15; it’s a want, not a need.

 

[2aguy]

True. After all, the experience and results of developed countries that have effectively banned both them and handguns are not rational reasoned arguments at all.

You mean except for the fact that criminals in Europe prefer actual, fully automatic military rifles?

You mean except for that...right?

Paris attacks highlight France's gun control problems

The arsenal of weapons deployed by the eight attackers who terrorised Paris on Friday night underlined France’s gun control problems and raised the spectre of further attacks.

The country has extremely strict weapons laws, but Europe’s open borders and growing trade in illegal weapons means assault rifles are relatively easy to come by on the black market.


===============

A police investigation is underway after two people were shot dead, and a third burnt alive on Saturday evening in the southern French city of Marseille. It's the fourth death linked to gun violence this week, a phenomenon which the Mayor Benoît Payan says is out of control.

"In Marseille, you can buy a Kalachnikov as easy as buying a pain au chocolat," he said.

"This has to stop, and the Interior Minister, who is aware of the problem, must make it a key objective."
----
"If people are being killed by Kalachnikov rifles, it's because they are too easily sold throughout the city."



Three dead in Marseille shootout: 'guns are too easy to buy' says mayor

Reports of 'heavy gunfire' on the streets of French city of Nimes | Daily Mail Online

Machine-gun shots have been heard on the streets of a French city this evening as it was claimed a 'shootout' took place between rival gangs.

Repeated 'heavy gunfire' bursts were let off in the city of Nimes in southern France after armed men were seen in the area.

Social media videos showed several people running through the street as shots rang out at around 8.30pm.

Initial reports suggested the shooting could have been linked to gangs operating in the area.

Residents in a suburb of Pissevin district in the city claimed gang members shot at a building occupied by a rival group.


Reports of gunfire in the district have been on the rise in recent months, according to local media

Sweden....

Crime gangs in Sweden: What's behind the rise in the use of explosives?

The frequent use of explosives is a relatively recent phenomenon, and criminologists told The Local that the blasts can be seen as part of an overall rise in violence and growing recklessness in these criminal networks.

Amir Rostami, a police superintendent turned sociologist with a focus on criminal gangs, told The Local that so-called 'street gangs' are showing an increased tendency towards violence, and that this violence was becoming more severe when it took place.
"If previously they maybe fired one shot or shot someone in the legs, today it's more about AK47s, using more bullets, hand grenades and explosions that we didn't see before. I'd say that's the biggest shift we see – they're more reckless, they don't seem to care about the consequences," Rostami said.

Fatal shootings linked to criminal gangs have increased from around four per year in the early 1990s to over 40 in 2018. And while the blasts that have taken place in Sweden have caused no fatalities so far this year, they could be seen as a sign that the gangs are unafraid of causing damage and potentially harming people.



No, Sweden, hand grenade attacks aren’t an ‘image’ problem

In 2018 there were 162 bombings reported to police, and 93 reported in the first five months of this year, 30 more than during the same period in 2018. The level of attacks is “extreme in a country that is not at war,” Crime Commissioner Gunnar Appelgren toldSVT last year.
-------
The use of hand grenades is a purely Swedish phenomenon too, with no other country in Europe reporting their use on such a level, a police manager told Swedish Radio in 2016, a year after attacks first spiked.

The grenades used almost exclusively originate in the former Yugoslavia, and are sold in Sweden for around $100 per piece. But while only three hand grenades were thrown in Kosovo between 2013 and 2014, more than 20 have been used in Sweden every year since 2015.

More broadly, homicide has risen in Sweden, with more than 300 shootings reported last year, causing 45 deaths. Though homicide rates had been in decline since 2002, they again began trending upwards in 2015, as did rapes and sexual assaults, which more than tripled in the last four years.

Of course, 2015 was also the year in which Sweden flung open its doors to more than 160,000 asylum seekers, more per capita than any other European country.
-------


Britain...

Gun smuggling​

The prevalence of firearm offences is also partially to do with gun smuggling, experts say. Firearms can now be hired for as little as £100 around the UK and can be acquired in “less than a day”, reported the i news site’s investigations correspondent Dean Kirby.



According to Dr Robert Hesketh, a criminology expert at Liverpool John Moores University, it is “relatively easy” to get hold of a firearm in many cities.

“A MAC-10 will cost about £3,000, an MP5 £3,000,” Hesketh said. “These are automatic weapons. Another gun doing the rounds a few years ago and possibly now was a Desert Eagle, for about £500. It isn’t hard, put it that way.”

There is also an option to rent a weapon – with criminals borrowing firearms for short periods. “You can get one possibly for £100 to £150 if you know the right people,” Hesketh said.



While it is working to cut off supplies to the UK, the National Crime Agency has seen a “gradual increase” in the use of fully automatic weapons.

Some of the weapons used are deactivated or blank-firing devices, which are being bought in eastern Europe, where they are legal and unrestricted. They are then illegally reactivated by criminals before being transported to the UK, Kirby said.

Guns can also be bought on the dark web, and stolen, lawfully bought guns have also ended up being used in shootings. On the messaging app Telegram The Sunday Times found firearms advertised for sale from £400.

In 2019/20, the National Crime Agency seized 552 illegal firearms in the UK and abroad. The UK Border Force, meanwhile, picked up 2,600 lethal and non-lethal firearms in the year to September 2020.



Why is gun crime on the rise? | The Week UK

 

[2aguy]

Negated my claim? On the contrary, I affirmed your claim that you would never see rationality in an AR15 ban.

Yes......tell us that again......


Tell us......are fully automatic military rifles against the law to own in Europe? Are teenagers exempt from that law? Can 13 and 14 year olds own fully automatic weapons in Europe?



Asking for an anti-gun friend....

Sweden

Teenager machineguns the home of a terrified mother and young child in Stockholm suburb in latest example of spiralling gun crime as migrant drug gangs battle for control of the streets​

---
'It is terrible that attacks like this are normalised.'

The flat is the home of the ex-girlfriend of a well-known rapper, but she is no longer with him. The attack appears to have been a scare tactic.
------
Sweden has seen at least 15 incidents of homes being sprayed with bullets and a similar number of bombings in the last six weeks as drug gangs, mainly from immigrant communities, battle for control of the streets.

An hour after the apartment shooting, police managed to prevent a potential murder in nearby Hammarbyhöjden.

Officers carrying out surveillance on an address linked to a man in the Dalen network are said to have begun chasing a suspicious car.

The pursuit ended with the car crashing and two boys aged 13 and 14 being arrested after automatic weapons and masks were found inside.

Teenager machineguns family home near Stockholm as gun crime spirals

Video shows a teenager in a suburb of Stockholm machinegunning the home of a family with an assault rifle as armed violence among criminal drug gangs in Sweden continues to rise.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[M14 Shooter]

Negated my claim?

AND you sypported mine.
You believe that the "success" of bans on AR15s in other countries creates a sound argument foe banning them here.
That "success" is based on a post-hoc fallacy on your part: "Because they have those laws, they have no problem w/ AR15s"
Fallacious arguments, such as yours, are unsound - and thus, supports the position that there are no sound arguments for banning ARs.

Well done.

 

[the other mike]

Same location as before...

View attachment 777928

Arkansas.
I forgot I changed it .

 

[M14 Shooter]

There are scores of other firearms more than adequate for SD; firearms far better suited than an AR 15.

"All bearable arms"
Thus, your claim, above is completely and utterly meaningless.
But you knew that when you made it.

And again, there's no rational, reasoned argument in support of possessing an AR 15; it’s a want, not a need.

As you have said: We are not required to demonstrate a need as a requirement to exercise our rights
Thus, your claim, above is completely and utterly meaningless.
But you knew that when you made it.

Try harder.

 

[BoostedHayabusa]

Arkansas.
I forgot I changed it .

Incorrect again

 

[Concerned American]

And again, there's no rational, reasoned argument in support of possessing an AR 15

And again. The 2nd Amendment says I don't have to justify my reasoning.

 

[Curried Goats]

And again. The 2nd Amendment says I don't have to justify my reasoning.

The words well regulated are in the the 2nd Amendment.

 

[Concerned American]

The words well regulated are in the the 2nd Amendment.

Yeah, so are the words shall not be infringed.

 

[M14 Shooter]

The words well regulated are in the the 2nd Amendment.

Yes.
They modify "militia".
So?

 

[Curried Goats]

Yeah, so are the words shall not be infringed.

Yes.
They modify "militia".
So?

The text of the second amendment is as follows:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

At the time Americans didn't want a standing army and the concern, especially of Southern States were for skirmishes with indigenous people (who were being driven from land they use to live in) and slaves who would occasionally revolt. They weren't entirely convinced a President from a non slave holding state would respond to their calls for assistance. Hence the line about Militias being necessary for the security of free States. They were saying they needed guns and a well regulated militia to keep their slaves in line.

 

[M14 Shooter]

The text of the second amendment is as follows:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

At the time Americans didn't want a standing army and the concern, especially of Southern States were for skirmishes with indigenous people (who were being driven from land they use to live in) and slaves who would occasionally revolt. They weren't entirely convinced a President from a non slave holding state would respond to their calls for assistance. Hence the line about Militias being necessary for the security of free States. They were saying they needed guns and a well regulated militia to keep their slaves in line.

Ok.
And?

 

[Concerned American]

The text of the second amendment is as follows:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

At the time Americans didn't want a standing army and the concern, especially of Southern States were for skirmishes with indigenous people (who were being driven from land they use to live in) and slaves who would occasionally revolt. They weren't entirely convinced a President from a non slave holding state would respond to their calls for assistance. Hence the line about Militias being necessary for the security of free States. They were saying they needed guns and a well regulated militia to keep their slaves in line.

In 1791--yeah, right. Just keep running around in circles inside what's left of that racist mind of yours.

 

[Curried Goats]

Ok.
And?

The context is that such that text makes it pretty clear that its the States ability to provide for its own security that can be infringed and how that militia operates can be regulated, not personal gun ownership itself.

 

[Curried Goats]

In 1791--yeah, right. Just keep running around in circles inside what's left of that racist mind of yours.

It's not my fault you don't study history.

 

[Concerned American]

The context is that such that text makes it pretty clear that its the States ability to provide for its own security that can be infringed and how that militia operates can be regulated, not personal gun ownership itself.

Take it up with SCOTUS. They disagree and they hold more sway than you do. Next.

 

[M14 Shooter]

The context is that such that text makes it pretty clear that its the States ability to provide for its own security that can be infringed and how that militia operates can be regulated, not personal gun ownership itself.

The right of the people.
Not the right of the state.
Not the right of the state militia .
Not the right of the people in the state militia.
The right of the people.
The right of the people to keep and bear arms, and the constitutional protection for same, is not dependent on the well-regulated militia

The USSC discarded your argument 2 decades ago.
Get over it.

 

[Concerned American]

It's not my fault you don't study history.

It's not my fault you are whining about the 2nd amendment. Let me know when you come to the realization that "what you think about the second amendment is irrelevant."