The liberal mythology of healthcare being a right

[Dr Grump]

To be honest with you Odd, you seem to do a lot of complaining on this board but offer up Sweet FA in the form of solutions...

Which you likely already know, is typical of many on the right.

Remember also that American conservatives are for the most part Social Darwinists, reactionaries, and ignorant of other peoples and cultures outside of the United States. They perceive the ‘outside world’ a frightening, evil place, where America is a ‘shining city upon a hill,' and subscribe to such jingoistic nonsense as ‘American exceptionalism.’

They are indeed a dangerous blend of ignorance and arrogance.

Here's an idea....How about arrogant assholes like you just leaving people the hell alone, and quit pretending that you can come up with a collectivised solution for every human ill that exists?

Seems that know-itall dickweeds have no problem whatsoever seeing every human failing in everyone else, yet completely refuse to entertain the notion that such blemishes of human nature might just possibly apply to you....And you have the fucking nerve to talk about the ignorance and arrogance of others.

Er, you don't see the irony of this post??

 

[Oddball]

Er, I'm not the one proposing that the world's problems can be solved at the point of a gun.

I can live with the fact that I'm imperfect.

I don't believe that my view of what constitutes compassion or caring is worthy of being jammed down everyone else's throat.

 

[Dr Grump]

Er, I'm not the one proposing that the world's problems can be solved at the point of a gun.

You don't come across as a diplomat either...

 

[Oddball]

Er, I'm not the one proposing that the world's problems can be solved at the point of a gun.

You don't come across as a diplomat either...

What diplomacy is there in coercion?

How long do you expect that brute force will be met with bovine acceptance?

 

[Dr Grump]

Er, I'm not the one proposing that the world's problems can be solved at the point of a gun.

You don't come across as a diplomat either...

What diplomacy is there in coercion?

How long do you expect that brute force will be met with bovine acceptance?

And your answer is???

 

[bripat9643]

So then you consider libraries government being a predator? Highways? Universities?

How does government pay for libraries and highways? It uses guns to take the money.

You'll forgive me if I don't run my life based on the musings of Dante. Voting to force someone else to pay the expense of the underprivileged doesn't make you "warm-hearted." I makes you a thug. Welfare is not charity. It's theft.[/quote]

ALL welfare is theft? Hmmm.

Yes.

I have a friend who was born blind. Now he's a successful business owner. Do you consider him a thief?

I consider the government that collects the money for welfare to be a thief.

How about all the guys I work with at the VA? You know, the ones who gave arms, legs and emotional health for country. Are they thieves?

Soldiers are receiving the benefits that government agreed to. National defense is one of the few legitimate functions of government because it involves protecting your rights. However, the means used to collect the money are still coercive.

Jus' sayin' that the generalizations found in political pamphlets, whether Dem, Repub or Libertarian, are rarely universal and often just plain wrong.

You are correct about Dem and Repub "principles,' because they don't have any.

 

[bripat9643]

Which is interesting given the fact that it has been the state governments, not the Federal government, which have historically been the greater violators of rights in the United States. Indeed, starting during the early 20th Century, it was Congress and the Federal courts which compelled many states to acknowledge individual rights per the 14th Amendment.

ROFL! Really? Prior to the Civil war, the federal government enforced that law that said people living in free states had to return fugitive slaves to their owners.

 

[bripat9643]

To be honest with you Odd, you seem to do a lot of complaining on this board but offer up Sweet FA in the form of solutions...

The idea that every problem has a solution is a left-wing fetish.

 

[Decepticon]

Perhaps when the OP can show lower costs and better outcomes in OUR insurer-based system than European Socialist systems, his arguments will hold water.

Until then, its all meaningless drivel.

I already know the answer to this question.

If your intention is to take good care of your populations medical needs, socialized medicine is the most cost-effective, results driven way to do it.

If your intention is provide some care for your populations AND a nice little tidy profit margin, at TWICE the cost of other nations, then our current system is AWESOME! Oh and let's not forget the added bonus of the US system...that you could lose your home and end up on the street if you get sick! Huzzah!

 

[Full-Auto]

Perhaps when the OP can show lower costs and better outcomes in OUR insurer-based system than European Socialist systems, his arguments will hold water.

Until then, its all meaningless drivel.

I already know the answer to this question.

If your intention is to take good care of your populations medical needs, socialized medicine is the most cost-effective, results driven way to do it.

If your intention is provide some care for your populations AND a nice little tidy profit margin, at TWICE the cost of other nations, then our current system is AWESOME! Oh and let's not forget the added bonus of the US system...that you could lose your home and end up on the street if you get sick! Huzzah!

Comical you guys bitch when an insurance company will not cover a procedure while cheering the government to make those very same decisions. Costs go up with socialized care. Due to no skin in the game.

 

[bripat9643]

Perhaps when the OP can show lower costs and better outcomes in OUR insurer-based system than European Socialist systems, his arguments will hold water.

Until then, its all meaningless drivel.

I already know the answer to this question.

If your intention is to take good care of your populations medical needs, socialized medicine is the most cost-effective, results driven way to do it.

If your intention is provide some care for your populations AND a nice little tidy profit margin, at TWICE the cost of other nations, then our current system is AWESOME! Oh and let's not forget the added bonus of the US system...that you could lose your home and end up on the street if you get sick! Huzzah!

Socialized medicine cuts cost only by cutting services. Typically, they send people home to die if they are deemed too old for care to be "cost effective." Most of the healthcare dollars in this country are spent during the last 6 months of a person's life.

Many expensive cancer treatments are not available in countries with socialized medicine. Also, patients are put on long waiting lists for treatment. Cases that would be treatable become terminal because they had to wait too long for treatment.

 

[Oddball]

To be honest with you Odd, you seem to do a lot of complaining on this board but offer up Sweet FA in the form of solutions...

The idea that every problem has a solution is a left-wing fetish.

The idea that every problem has a solution which comes via collectivist compulsion is a left-wing fetish.

Fixed.

 

[IndependntLogic]

So then you consider libraries government being a predator? Highways? Universities?

How does government pay for libraries and highways? It uses guns to take the money.

You'll forgive me if I don't run my life based on the musings of Dante. Voting to force someone else to pay the expense of the underprivileged doesn't make you "warm-hearted." I makes you a thug. Welfare is not charity. It's theft.

ALL welfare is theft? Hmmm.

Yes.

I have a friend who was born blind. Now he's a successful business owner. Do you consider him a thief?

I consider the government that collects the money for welfare to be a thief.

How about all the guys I work with at the VA? You know, the ones who gave arms, legs and emotional health for country. Are they thieves?

Soldiers are receiving the benefits that government agreed to. National defense is one of the few legitimate functions of government because it involves protecting your rights. However, the means used to collect the money are still coercive.

Jus' sayin' that the generalizations found in political pamphlets, whether Dem, Repub or Libertarian, are rarely universal and often just plain wrong.

You are correct about Dem and Repub "principles,' because they don't have any.[/QUOTE]

And of course Libertarian ideology is right all of the time? Wrong. It is chock full of holes and theories that history has proven innacurate over and over again.
Just as any economic or political theory is never always right.

 

[IndependntLogic]

Perhaps when the OP can show lower costs and better outcomes in OUR insurer-based system than European Socialist systems, his arguments will hold water.

Until then, its all meaningless drivel.

I already know the answer to this question.

If your intention is to take good care of your populations medical needs, socialized medicine is the most cost-effective, results driven way to do it.

If your intention is provide some care for your populations AND a nice little tidy profit margin, at TWICE the cost of other nations, then our current system is AWESOME! Oh and let's not forget the added bonus of the US system...that you could lose your home and end up on the street if you get sick! Huzzah!

Comical you guys bitch when an insurance company will not cover a procedure while cheering the government to make those very same decisions. Costs go up with socialized care. Due to no skin in the game.

You know this how? You have had government run health in how many countries? I had it in the military here and while I lived in three other countries. Seemed okay to me but two of those countries had both public and private options.
And as far as cost, um hmmm. You realize it's more expensive in the USA than well, pretty much anywhere that a public option is offered, right?
How many times have you personally seen the government deny you or someone you know benefits?
Based on your post, it seems like your knowledge of public health care comes from the media but I could be wrong.

 

[mskafka]

Denial. As Wry said early in the thread-paraphrasing-"you don't want to pay for something that you're going to need some day."

Do some of you really believe that you're going to be healthy your entire life? Do you think that you're never going to die? I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you're eventually going to get sick or injured; and you're going to die.

Most of us realized that after our first hospitalization or when we were in our best friend's car when she rolled it. But some of you are still in denial.

And if you think that you can save the money for the worst-case scenario, I hope that you have at least a million. And if you don't, and you want to opt out of insurance, lock the doors and don't leave your house. One really good car crash (especially if you're an egghead who doesn't like to wear seatbelts)......start at $500,000 and work your way up.

And if we're speaking in a literal sense, yes, healthcare is a right. Otherwise, we would be allowed to tell bozos, who call 911 for a superficial burn to the tip of their pinky, that we aren't going to transport them. Legally we cannot do that, and none of us want to live under a bridge-so keeping employment is imperative.

 

[Dr Grump]

To be honest with you Odd, you seem to do a lot of complaining on this board but offer up Sweet FA in the form of solutions...

The idea that every problem has a solution is a left-wing fetish.

The idea that every problem has a solution which comes via collectivist compulsion is a left-wing fetish.

Fixed.

Or you could live your life like you do - bitch, moan, whine and whinge but offer up no solutions. It's easy to hvae a populisit mantra when you offer nothing

 

[Dr Grump]

Perhaps when the OP can show lower costs and better outcomes in OUR insurer-based system than European Socialist systems, his arguments will hold water.

Until then, its all meaningless drivel.

I already know the answer to this question.

If your intention is to take good care of your populations medical needs, socialized medicine is the most cost-effective, results driven way to do it.

If your intention is provide some care for your populations AND a nice little tidy profit margin, at TWICE the cost of other nations, then our current system is AWESOME! Oh and let's not forget the added bonus of the US system...that you could lose your home and end up on the street if you get sick! Huzzah!

Socialized medicine cuts cost only by cutting services. Typically, they send people home to die if they are deemed too old for care to be "cost effective." Most of the healthcare dollars in this country are spent during the last 6 months of a person's life.

Many expensive cancer treatments are not available in countries with socialized medicine. Also, patients are put on long waiting lists for treatment. Cases that would be treatable become terminal because they had to wait too long for treatment.

And that isn't the case in the US if you have no medical insurance?

Oh, and links. For every negative outcome you can find in a country with socialised medicine, I'll find similar in the US

Face it, your system sux. You are the only folks who bitch and moan constantly about your system, while we don't. That suggests it's not a very good one....

My wife had the choice of going to the US or Australia with her job. The US appealed for many reasons, until we saw the monthly health premiums...then Aussie it was...

 

[kiwiman127]

There's a reason why Americans pay more than the rest of the world for it's heathcare by a mile and the number one reason isn't because the US has allegedly the best healthcare. Other countries regulate or negotiate their costs, you know trying to save not only it's people money but also the government.
But in America, we don't allow our government to negotiate healthcare costs, it's socialism!!!! So as the US becomes more and more under the gun economically because of the cost of healthcare (and we are), we''re doing it so a few can make mega-bucks in the name of free enterprise. Nothing like shooting yourself in the foot.

 

[bripat9643]

Or you could live your life like you do - bitch, moan, whine and whinge but offer up no solutions. It's easy to hvae a populisit mantra when you offer nothing

You seem to be doing more than your share of pissing and moaning.

 

[bripat9643]

And of course Libertarian ideology is right all of the time? Wrong. It is chock full of holes and theories that history has proven innacurate over and over again.

Such as?

Just as any economic or political theory is never always right.

If it's not always right, then it's a false theory and should be disposed of. Which economic theories are not always right?