The high cost of unintended pregnancy

[FA_Q2]

and before you take me down the "consciousness" and "self aware" path, let me explain to you..I don't give a shit how YOU define human being. It has no validity. I protect the rights of ALL humans, whether self aware, whether conscious, or not, to live.

That means I don't subscribe to euthanasia, assisted suicide, the death penalty, or abortion. All are just code words for "let's kill the ones we determine have no value to US."

I don't grade humans based upon their value to you. Human is human, and each human has a right to life that is given him by his CREATOR. Not by you.

Not totally true though. The fact is that we kill people regularly that are no longer capable of thought aka - brain dead. These people are capable of living quite a long time if kept on machines that support life yet we pull the plug and allow these people to die. That is mostly because they might be human but they have ceased to be a 'person' and no longer are afforded the same status. In the same manner, embryos are not self sustaining and require the woman as a form of life support. They are fundamentally different in the fact that they will become a person though and that separates them from the 'they aren't a person' argument as they clearly are going to be a person.


The problem is in the end result though. The fact is that illegalizing abortion simply is not tenable. As has been pointed out, abortions are still going to occur and there is nothing that you can do about it. It is far better for those to happen under the supervision of a physician rather than the 'back ally' abortions of the past. No amount of foot stomping the pro life position is going to change the fact that the woman has control over her body no matter what the government or anyone else has to say about the matter. She has that power by simply being. She chooses what to eat, when to exercise, when to sleep and any number of things she can do in any of those categories can cause a miscarriage aka 'accidental' abortion. The best thing we can do is to bring the issue into the light and regulate it. Make certain requirements for abortion like time frames to help eliminate late term abortions.

 

[FA_Q2]

What "truth"? That you think that the number of abortions wouldn't drop...hence you think, most women who obtain abortions are criminal? That the law means nothing to them? There's absolutely no evidence that the number of abortions wouldn't drop if we shut down the industry. Of course they would drop. Just as they rose exponentially with the advent of legalized abortion.

And there's no doubt that people who promote and believe in abortion call themselves "pro-life". They do it on this messageboard all the time. Just listen to the loons say "I'm not pro-abortion, I'm pro-life because abortions SAVE LIVES". It's insane, and absolutely untrue. Legalized abortion doesn't save lives. It takes lives, women and children, it trivializes life, it establishes a precedent that children are abhorrent and worthless.

What "truth"? That you think that the number of abortions wouldn't drop...hence you think, most women who obtain abortions are criminal? That the law means nothing to them? There's absolutely no evidence that the number of abortions wouldn't drop if we shut down the industry. Of course they would drop. Just as they rose exponentially with the advent of legalized abortion.

And there's no doubt that people who promote and believe in abortion call themselves "pro-life". They do it on this messageboard all the time. Just listen to the loons say "I'm not pro-abortion, I'm pro-life because abortions SAVE LIVES". It's insane, and absolutely untrue. Legalized abortion doesn't save lives. It takes lives, women and children, it trivializes life, it establishes a precedent that children are abhorrent and worthless.

There is absolutely no evidence that abortions would drop either unless you have something you have not shown us yet. What you are doing is akin to when the libs here state that stricter gun control leads to a safer environment with fewer crimes. Limiting access to something does not meant that you are going to control it. Usually, the exact opposite occurs.

 

[FA_Q2]

Again.....I respect the fact that you don't believe those things are right and I would never take issue with you over your beliefs.

But the minute you start pushing your beliefs on others and ask for "big gubmint" to step in and enforce your beliefs on others I WILL take issue with you and quite forceful at that.

Because unless you are God, the woman or her doctor you have absolutely no right to stick your nose in.

You could at least be genuine with your response. You know that this is not about anyone stepping in to enforce their beliefs. It is a matter of when a fetus gets protections and rights. You can rail all you want about how a fetus has no rights but you would be dead wrong. That is where bans on late term abortions come from. You have a right to control your body but your growing child also deserves certain protections. The real debate is where that line belongs. The vast majority of people realize that the asinine arguments of at birth or at conception are just that - asinine. That line belongs neither at the beginning or the end but rather somewhere in the middle. As was pointed out earlier, I think you will find that the vast majority of people see that line as somewhere in the first trimester.

 

[newpolitics]

Then buy some fucking condoms and stop reproducing... what is wrong with you libs? You have zero self control and you always want somebody else to foot the bill for your fuck ups.

Geesh.

Are you actually trying to say that conservatives don't get abortions?

And that conservatives always practice self control?

Because if you are I can see this thread really getting exciting.

Why do leftist whack jobs always have to pretend something is being said other than what is actually being said?

I know. Because they don't dare speak to the point. It exposes them for what they are.

What? Was this english? translate.

 

[newpolitics]

Are you actually trying to say that conservatives don't get abortions?

And that conservatives always practice self control?

Because if you are I can see this thread really getting exciting.

Why do leftist whack jobs always have to pretend something is being said other than what is actually being said?

I know. Because they don't dare speak to the point. It exposes them for what they are.

What in the hell are you babbling about??? Soggy said that liberals have zero self control. DaGoose merely asked if she was trying to say that conservatives always practice self control. A very logical question. So what's your problem??

You shouldn't ask such logical questions. Conservatives here don't know how to answer without their heads exploding.

 

[chanel]

And lefties don't understand hyperbole.

 

[francoHFW]

Thank god women will all soon have free birth control so abortion will really become rarer. How ignorant and deluded can brainwashed conservatives get? Not to mention hateful and selfish....

 

[g5000]

50% of American women will have an unwanted pregnancy in their lifetime. Republicans want to force these women to bring their pregnancies to term. Unwanted children are MUCH more likely to be abused. Therefore, Republicans are pro child abuse.

Since they occur so frequently, there really needs to be a list of logical fallacies for this forum to which we can just refer by number when someone makes idiotic statements like this.

#3 (Syllogistic fallacy of the undistributed middle).

 

[koshergrl]

I list them all the time.

In fact, I linked them just a few days ago...

http://www.usmessageboard.com/general-discussion/158255-logical-fallacies.html

 

[koshergrl]

Thank god women will all soon have free birth control so abortion will really become rarer. How ignorant and deluded can brainwashed conservatives get? Not to mention hateful and selfish....

Women have free birth control NOW, DUMBASS. And yet the rate of "unintended pregnancy" climbed for years..and now holds steady.

I don't suppose it could be because PROMOTING CASUAL SEX is overweeningly stupid, and that it should be CRIMINAL to tell women that they have a "right" to sex without any consideration of the consequences (i.e., CHILDREN), or promoting the concept that CHILDREN are sexual creatures and we must learn to live with that and cease efforts to prevent them from having sex..in fact, we should ACCOMODATE them in their sexual escapades....nah, that couldn't be it...

 

[koshergrl]

and before you take me down the "consciousness" and "self aware" path, let me explain to you..I don't give a shit how YOU define human being. It has no validity. I protect the rights of ALL humans, whether self aware, whether conscious, or not, to live.

That means I don't subscribe to euthanasia, assisted suicide, the death penalty, or abortion. All are just code words for "let's kill the ones we determine have no value to US."

I don't grade humans based upon their value to you. Human is human, and each human has a right to life that is given him by his CREATOR. Not by you.

Not totally true though. The fact is that we kill people regularly that are no longer capable of thought aka - brain dead. These people are capable of living quite a long time if kept on machines that support life yet we pull the plug and allow these people to die. That is mostly because they might be human but they have ceased to be a 'person' and no longer are afforded the same status. In the same manner, embryos are not self sustaining and require the woman as a form of life support. They are fundamentally different in the fact that they will become a person though and that separates them from the 'they aren't a person' argument as they clearly are going to be a person.


The problem is in the end result though. The fact is that illegalizing abortion simply is not tenable. As has been pointed out, abortions are still going to occur and there is nothing that you can do about it. It is far better for those to happen under the supervision of a physician rather than the 'back ally' abortions of the past. No amount of foot stomping the pro life position is going to change the fact that the woman has control over her body no matter what the government or anyone else has to say about the matter. She has that power by simply being. She chooses what to eat, when to exercise, when to sleep and any number of things she can do in any of those categories can cause a miscarriage aka 'accidental' abortion. The best thing we can do is to bring the issue into the light and regulate it. Make certain requirements for abortion like time frames to help eliminate late term abortions.

What isn't true? That I reject the concept of "you're not human unless I find it convenient for you to be human"?

If you support abortion, at any stage, you support abortion. Women have control over their bodies, this is true. But no matter how much foot stomping the baby killers engage in, control over their own bodies DOES NOT extend to control over life and death of another. It is no more acceptable to kill a baby residing in your body than it is to kill a baby residing in a crib next to your bed.

It's the same thing. It's just a matter of where the real estate is located.

 

[Gagafritz]

I agree. And, that is the crux of the issue. So, even in difficult cases of rape and incest, you have to look at the fact that it is killing a human being and say so. That is the difficult reality to be consistent with what you believe.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

Thank god women will all soon have free birth control so abortion will really become rarer. How ignorant and deluded can brainwashed conservatives get? Not to mention hateful and selfish....

Women have free birth control NOW, DUMBASS. And yet the rate of "unintended pregnancy" climbed for years..and now holds steady.

I don't suppose it could be because PROMOTING CASUAL SEX is overweeningly stupid, and that it should be CRIMINAL to tell women that they have a "right" to sex without any consideration of the consequences (i.e., CHILDREN), or promoting the concept that CHILDREN are sexual creatures and we must learn to live with that and cease efforts to prevent them from having sex..in fact, we should ACCOMODATE them in their sexual escapades....nah, that couldn't be it...

Lefties seem to have some serious self-control problems.... all they talk about is how much they need contraceptives and abortions.

 

[g5000]

Lefties seem to have some serious self-control problems.... all they talk about is how much they need contraceptives and abortions.

As I have shown with evidence, half of all abortions are the result of no birth control of any kind being used during the sex act which led to the unwanted preganacy.

Therefore, if you increase contraceptive use, you will substantially decrease abortions.

It is pretty much a no-brainer that one solution needs to be the promotion of birth control.

 

[Gagafritz]

Increasing contraceptive use isn't going to decrease abortions. More chances of failure to use it, etc. In reality, self control of not engaging in sex in the first place if you are not prepared for the consequences is the only thing that would really reduce abortions. And, as for reducing abortions, another way to reduce abortions is to have the child you created and take responsibility.

 

[Bern80]

Pretty soon the government will be mandating how many kids Americans can have just like China.

The great big picture part of me thinks maybe that isn't such a terrible idea.

 

[koshergrl]

I once believed that if Roe v. Wade were overturned that abortions would plummet to about 8 percent of current levels. I forget where I got that number from.

But as a critical thinker, it was incumbent on me to challenge my assumptions. And so I did some in-depth research into this hypothetical scenario. And the end result was a fairly undebunkable conclusion which forced me to rethink my pro-life position.

You see, I discovered that the number of abortions would change negligibly were Roe v. Wade overturned. That was quite a shocking discovery to me, but indisputable.

Perhaps if I have time, I will dig up my old evidence bomb for that conclusion and drop it around here somewhere.

Nevertheless, as was stated in the OP, nearly half of all abortions are the result of the complete and total non-use of any kind of birth control whatsoever.

I want my fellow pro-lifers to ponder the significance of that truth for a moment.



Half of all abortions are the result of no birth control being used.






I believe that when people start screaming at each other, it just results in their opponents becoming that much more polarized on whatever subject is at issue. This is particularly true when it comes to gun control and abortion. And it seems like both of these issues are waged on an "ends justify the means" no holds barred level of warfare. No amount of lying is off limits, and no amount of propaganda is too much.

However, I believe the facts I have stated present a middle ground upon which rational people on both sides can meet. (Please resist the temptation to claim there are no rational people on the other side. )

I know that most pro-choice people are horrified at the number of abortions which occur each year, and I know that most pro-life people are not opposed to birth control. Only pro-choice extremists are okay with late term abortions, and only pro-life extremists are opposed to the pill.

Therefore, in light of the fact that the number of abortions would remain unchanged if Roe v. Wade were overturned, I believe a great deal of pro-life energy is being wasted arguing over it. While I still believe it should be overturned strictly for moral reasons, I think we have lost sight of the forest for the trees.

If the aim is to actually eliminate abortions, repealing Roe v. Wade will not accomplish that. Just imagine the huge letdown that would be felt across the land if and when that happens.

Instead, perhaps we should be looking at that "no birth control" figure. Half of all abortions because of no birth control being used.

We might not be able to eliminate abortions entirely, but we sure could put one big fucking dent in it if we ramped up some kind of plan to get more people to use birth control, wouldn't you agree?

Isn't this some kind of common ground we can find with the non-extremist pro-choicers?


One other point of fact. I have a survey around here somewhere that shows half of all people call themselves "pro-life" and half of all people call themselves "pro-choice". And yet...two thirds of the same people are okay with abortion in the first trimester!

That strongly suggest that a fairly large number of people who are okay with first trimester abortions still consider themselves pro-life.

So there are not as many extremists out there as some might think. But they have been in control of this issue for far too long.

Thank you.

What "truth"? That you think that the number of abortions wouldn't drop...hence you think, most women who obtain abortions are criminal? That the law means nothing to them? There's absolutely no evidence that the number of abortions wouldn't drop if we shut down the industry. Of course they would drop. Just as they rose exponentially with the advent of legalized abortion.

And there's no doubt that people who promote and believe in abortion call themselves "pro-life". They do it on this messageboard all the time. Just listen to the loons say "I'm not pro-abortion, I'm pro-life because abortions SAVE LIVES". It's insane, and absolutely untrue. Legalized abortion doesn't save lives. It takes lives, women and children, it trivializes life, it establishes a precedent that children are abhorrent and worthless.

Again.....I respect the fact that you don't believe those things are right and I would never take issue with you over your beliefs.

But the minute you start pushing your beliefs on others and ask for "big gubmint" to step in and enforce your beliefs on others I WILL take issue with you and quite forceful at that.

Because unless you are God, the woman or her doctor you have absolutely no right to stick your nose in.

Bullshit. Violation of human rights is a violation of human rights REGARDLESS OF THE LAW. And we have a right and an obligation to defend those who cannot defend themselves.

 

[koshergrl]

Pretty soon the government will be mandating how many kids Americans can have just like China.

The great big picture part of me thinks maybe that isn't such a terrible idea.

And that's the justification all eugenecists and all Nazis use. Bravo.

 

[koshergrl]

Pretty soon the government will be mandating how many kids Americans can have just like China.

The great big picture part of me thinks maybe that isn't such a terrible idea.

What appalls me is that baby killers are okay with government dictating to others who to KILL, but they balk at the idea of government drawing the line at killing. It's apparently a RIGHT to kill, but a violation of rights to prevent it...

 

[Gagafritz]

Yes. If you truly believe abortion is murder, you have an ethical and moral duty to stand up and say so regardless of the law.