The Dems Will Lose Less Seats than You Think

[Cuyo]

He's probably sick to his stomach reading and going over the Bill. ~BH

No, not exactly. The conversation seems to have devolved into some kabookie catch-22.

You know what it is Cuyo? Seriously bro, just listen for a second. I know, You felt good about being a Democrat for a long time right? At first it was "feel good" thing where you were led to believe that you were on the side of righteousness and compassion. Slowly you accepted the fact that you were already being taxed and nickled and dimed to death but you were not gonna abandon your dope smoking brothers agenda. After all, Most of them were still renting rooms and why should you look down on or believe that you are any better than them?

So at first, You recognized that your Party had some nutcase proposals, some of them that were even passed, that deep down inside you were against as a small business owner. However, You weathered the Storm because you could never join the evil Corporate enslaved GOP. After some time you woke up to atleast the fact that both Parties in D.C are owned by The same Corporations. You kept your silence though, and more for your own selfish pride. Then Once Bush came in, you had a surge of liberal re-birth where you lied to yourself yet again by believing that only Republicans supported the War and Corporatons. You felt good for little while, but only because of the Bush tax cuts that you would never admit to.

Then finally, The madman Obama was elected and salvation came to your door. You swallowed all his bullshit like a good little sheople, and now today with this Bill all your past worries are coming back, the dream is over and you are attempting to swallow it all down like a beer bong at some highschool Party but in the back of your mind you know you're gonna be hugging that fucking toilet sooner or later. ~BH

Ya know, BH, I think we could be friends in real life. I mean that. You're a lot smarter than I would have given you credit for. Some of that I could even agree with. I especially like that last sentence, not because it's relevant but because it's very clever. But you've got my intentions and sociological view pegged all wrong.

I'm not the bleeding-heart liberal you think I am. A lot of us aren't, especially the more accomplished among us; Scientists, professors, hell, congressmen. It's not all about compassion. It is about compassion to an extent, but it's about stability and progress as well. The GOP has lost their ever-loving fuckin minds in the last decade or so. Where do you think the Bush-esque path would lead us? The GOP is THE party of deficit spending, yet they manage to frame the Democrats every time?

Wealth disparity leads to a shaky economy, ultimately class revolution. Obama wants to let Bush's tax cuts expire, a de-facto increase on the top bracket of 3.6% - And they call him a Socialist? Eisenhower had it at 90. What does that make him? The point is to create an aire of contentment, that you reach a certain point where more money no longer makes you happier. The problem now is, people accumulate wealth far beyond any earthy inclination that wealth can purchase. It's a sickness. And wealth begets wealth. Those who control the capitol control everything.

So, here's where I fit into this puzzle. I am not a teat-sucking leech who doesn't want to work. I'm the opposite. Even in my younger dope-smokin days, I always worked. I've never been unemployed for more than a few months since I was about 14. And for a loooong time, I got NOWHERE. Even now at 28 in a few days, I'm just somewhere in the middle. A goal-driven workaholic like me would have been looking at early retirement 40 years ago. Now, that workaholic is just a survivor; Not because of the government, but because of exploitative labor practices that have outsourced jobs, flooded the labor pool, and given the key-holders all the more power over us.

I don't know how old you are, but I think especially the older cons among us are out of touch with just how bad it really is out there in the wild these days.

As far as healthcare, it's been used as leverage against labor as well. People stay working in shit jobs that they hate, for poor wages, for fear of losing their benefits. Truthfully, a lot of this is mental, but it's tangible as well. Home Depot (I'm just picking names here) can get insurance that costs 30% as much per capita (again just pulling numbers) as a person can get on their own. Therefore, they can pay shit but lure you in with the golden "Benefits." Bob's Hardware can't do that. He can offer $16/hour instead of HD's $10, but after his 5-person group rate triples the insurance cost, the employee winds up with a net loss and is better off at Home Depot.

This is the reason I support the bill; It ends this. It's also the reason the GOP is so against the bill, despite concessions made by the Democrats. GOP is pro big business. Job mobility is bad for big business. Economic slavery is good for big business. And big business weakens the middle class; therefore, the economy.

Hope that's helped clear some things up.

 

[Cuyo]

Not really, I just pointed out that you THINK you are a wonderful employer. In reality, if any employee or family member of that employee gets sick or injured severely, they will have nothing. You are living in an illusion that you are some great employer who cares about your employees. Right size your company to protect theones you can afford to provide insurance for. Otherwise, it is the greed factor for you.

P.S. It is just me for now. Next year it will be President Obama telling you to pony up. Ouch!!!

Like I said, it's a round table. Here's what it is, here's what it will cost, yes or no. Thus far it's no. If we're still round-about 4 employees in '14 when the mandate kicks in, it will be the same discussion. But we'll be buying in an exchange same as everyone else, so I doubt our collective interaction will be any different than each acting individually.

Gambling with their health and welfare for four years. How noble of you. They get fined for not having it. You going to reimburse them for that? Man up, sit them down and tell them you can pay for health care coverage,if three do the work of four. Then round table who leaves.

I'll run it by them in the morning.

 

[eagleseven]

Your left of center in your thinking Toro.

No, I'm right of center. I come across as left of center to those who are way out on the right, and there are a lot of those people here.

Perhaps you should tell Old Rocks and Dogbert to stop thanking you, then? It might give people the wrong impression...

 

[Charles Stucker]

The economy will be significantly improved which will make Republican obstruction indefendable

That is obviously what you hope to see; more Democratic party socialism.
However if the Democrats do somehow maintain a majority this year they may manage enough to inflict enough more socialism on the USA to insure the economy will not recover, what will happen then?

 

[saveliberty]

Like I said, it's a round table. Here's what it is, here's what it will cost, yes or no. Thus far it's no. If we're still round-about 4 employees in '14 when the mandate kicks in, it will be the same discussion. But we'll be buying in an exchange same as everyone else, so I doubt our collective interaction will be any different than each acting individually.

Gambling with their health and welfare for four years. How noble of you. They get fined for not having it. You going to reimburse them for that? Man up, sit them down and tell them you can pay for health care coverage,if three do the work of four. Then round table who leaves.

I'll run it by them in the morning.

Your braver than me Cuyo. Mine is a seasonal business, so it was nonconfrontational when I simply didn't hire anyone in the spring. Typically younger people are in my business. Of course, they think they are indestructable and don't need coverage. No families either. Your the one responsible as owner. Do what you think is best for the company short term and long term. Employees often don't see the big picture.

Being the boss really stinks sometimes. It doesn't help that government is right there to tax, regulate, insist on reporting and looking at you like a moronic piggy bank. Good luck in your business and may you not have the problems those of us here have faced.

 

[Toro]

Your left of center in your thinking Toro.

No, I'm right of center. I come across as left of center to those who are way out on the right, and there are a lot of those people here.

Perhaps you should tell Old Rocks and Dogbert to stop thanking you, then? It might give people the wrong impression...

Beggars can't be choosers...

 

[PatekPhilippe]

Your left of center in your thinking Toro.

No, I'm right of center. I come across as left of center to those who are way out on the right, and there are a lot of those people here.

Perhaps you should tell Old Rocks and Dogbert to stop thanking you, then? It might give people the wrong impression...

When your definition of "center" is Stalinist Socialism....Toro is a tad right of center.

 

[eagleseven]

No, I'm right of center. I come across as left of center to those who are way out on the right, and there are a lot of those people here.

Perhaps you should tell Old Rocks and Dogbert to stop thanking you, then? It might give people the wrong impression...

Beggars can't be choosers...

I get the occasional rep from Eots.

 

[Modbert]

Perhaps you should tell Old Rocks and Dogbert to stop thanking you, then? It might give people the wrong impression...

Wrong impression of what? If you honestly think me and Old Rock hold the same positions, you're whacked out of your mind.

Hell, I don't really like much of what you seem to be putting forth with such a statement.

 

[eagleseven]

Perhaps you should tell Old Rocks and Dogbert to stop thanking you, then? It might give people the wrong impression...

Wrong impression of what? If you honestly think me and Old Rock hold the same positions, you're whacked out of your mind.

Hell, I don't really like much of what you seem to be putting forth with such a statement.

You are a liberal humanist. Old Rocks is an old-style Democratic hack. Neither you nor Old Rocks are right-leaning.

Am I accurate?

 

[saveliberty]

Perhaps you should tell Old Rocks and Dogbert to stop thanking you, then? It might give people the wrong impression...

Beggars can't be choosers...

I get the occasional rep from Eots.

Never gave much thought to being able to refuse positive rep, but that sort of makes the case.

 

[Cuyo]

Gambling with their health and welfare for four years. How noble of you. They get fined for not having it. You going to reimburse them for that? Man up, sit them down and tell them you can pay for health care coverage,if three do the work of four. Then round table who leaves.

I'll run it by them in the morning.

Your braver than me Cuyo. Mine is a seasonal business, so it was nonconfrontational when I simply didn't hire anyone in the spring. Typically younger people are in my business. Of course, they think they are indestructable and don't need coverage. No families either. Your the one responsible as owner. Do what you think is best for the company short term and long term. Employees often don't see the big picture.

Being the boss really stinks sometimes. It doesn't help that government is right there to tax, regulate, insist on reporting and looking at you like a moronic piggy bank. Good luck in your business and may you not have the problems those of us here have faced.

I don't know your particular circumstance, but I am Sub-S. The corporation pays withholdings and other payroll taxes only (Including those from my own salary); Then whatever else we have profited (Which isn't much) shows up on my W-2 as a dividend, where it's taxed the same as any other income. The dividends are not subject to FICA which is a nice break for me, but estimating what that magic number will be and making sure the funds are set aside can be problematic. My accountant usually has me making a small fortune until I find this-and-that deduction (usually cash) to bring it back down to earth.

In that sense, I actually pay a lower effective tax rate than my employees do, if you count FICA as "Tax." When I hear all this chatter about how taxes are going up on "Small Business" I don't think it applies to me, nor can I figure out what the hell they're talking about in the first place.

 

[Modbert]

You are a liberal humanist. Old Rocks is an old-style Democratic hack. Neither you nor Old Rocks are right-leaning.

Am I accurate?

If you mean Republican leaning? No, I am not. I am Libertarian for many views, but I am a Liberal at the end of the day.

However, I thank plenty of people who lean to the right on here. Toro is just one of many.

 

[saveliberty]

I'll run it by them in the morning.

Your braver than me Cuyo. Mine is a seasonal business, so it was nonconfrontational when I simply didn't hire anyone in the spring. Typically younger people are in my business. Of course, they think they are indestructable and don't need coverage. No families either. Your the one responsible as owner. Do what you think is best for the company short term and long term. Employees often don't see the big picture.

Being the boss really stinks sometimes. It doesn't help that government is right there to tax, regulate, insist on reporting and looking at you like a moronic piggy bank. Good luck in your business and may you not have the problems those of us here have faced.

I don't know your particular circumstance, but I am Sub-S. The corporation pays withholdings and other payroll taxes only (Including those from my own salary); Then whatever else we have profited (Which isn't much) shows up on my W-2 as a dividend, where it's taxed the same as any other income. The dividends are not subject to FICA which is a nice break for me, but estimating what that magic number will be and making sure the funds are set aside can be problematic. My accountant usually has me making a small fortune until I find this-and-that deduction (usually cash) to bring it back down to earth.

In that sense, I actually pay a lower effective tax rate than my employees do, if you count FICA as "Tax." When I hear all this chatter about how taxes are going up on "Small Business" I don't think it applies to me, nor can I figure out what the hell they're talking about in the first place.

I'm an S corp. You must have worker's comp. right? Some sort of business liability? Is your ass just dragging on the asphalt without coverage? Where's the unemployment tax?

 

[eagleseven]

You are a liberal humanist. Old Rocks is an old-style Democratic hack. Neither you nor Old Rocks are right-leaning.

Am I accurate?

If you mean Republican leaning? No, I am not. I am Libertarian for many views, but I am a Liberal at the end of the day.

However, I thank plenty of people who lean to the right on here. Toro is just one of many.

I know. Your occasional thank-yous are the only things keeping me from being a wingnut!

 

[Modbert]

I know. Your occasional thank-yous are the only things keeping me from being a wingnut!

And my dashing great points.

 

[BolshevikHunter]

Ya know, BH, I think we could be friends in real life. I mean that. You're a lot smarter than I would have given you credit for. Some of that I could even agree with. I especially like that last sentence, not because it's relevant but because it's very clever. But you've got my intentions and sociological view pegged all wrong.

Hey Cuyo, I may rant alot like a right-wing lunatic, but those who know me understand that it's just heated passion, and no I am no fool. I am very extreme sometimes, but I also can be very reasonable. So I appreciate your kind words.

I'm not the bleeding-heart liberal you think I am. A lot of us aren't, especially the more accomplished among us; Scientists, professors, hell, congressmen.

But that's just it bro, I know that you're not and that was my point. Save Liberty and I were trying to reach and help you...

It's not all about compassion. It is about compassion to an extent, but it's about stability and progress as well. The GOP has lost their ever-loving fuckin minds in the last decade or so. Where do you think the Bush-esque path would lead us? The GOP is THE party of deficit spending, yet they manage to frame the Democrats every time?

Without a doubt they have. Just search Hannity. com. For 8 years I ranted against the Liberal GOP and Bush The Liberal Republican. Not on everything because I agreed with alot of his domestic policies other than amnesty, but took a second look at his Internationalist position ect. You got to understand that deficit spending is on both sides. You're smart enough to see that now, and in the past as well.

Wealth disparity leads to a shaky economy, ultimately class revolution. Obama wants to let Bush's tax cuts expire, a de-facto increase on the top bracket of 3.6% - And they call him a Socialist? Eisenhower had it at 90. What does that make him? The point is to create an aire of contentment, that you reach a certain point where more money no longer makes you happier. The problem now is, people accumulate wealth far beyond any earthy inclination that wealth can purchase. It's a sickness. And wealth begets wealth. Those who control the capitol control everything.

They are all controlled by the same people bro. One takes over for the other. While all of them enjoy the smaller fruits whenever the one is holding the Oval office. And Eisenhower? I love his farewell speech, but he was used by the Socialist FDR which I won't go into right now.

So, here's where I fit into this puzzle. I am not a teat-sucking leech who doesn't want to work. I'm the opposite. Even in my younger dope-smokin days, I always worked. I've never been unemployed for more than a few months since I was about 14. And for a loooong time, I got NOWHERE. Even now at 28 in a few days, I'm just somewhere in the middle. A goal-driven workaholic like me would have been looking at early retirement 40 years ago. Now, that workaholic is just a survivor; Not because of the government, but because of exploitative labor practices that have outsourced jobs, flooded the labor pool, and given the key-holders all the more power over us.

I respect that, I really do. I believe that you're a hard working person. Know why? I can tell. I am positioned at the point where I believe that you might be being misled though. If you can come to the realization that outsourcing ect... is a product of both Parties. Internationalism is killing America, and all these carpetbaggers on both sides are to blame.

I don't know how old you are, but I think especially the older cons among us are out of touch with just how bad it really is out there in the wild these days.

I am 37 years old. Done it all. From fast food as a teenager to hard Labor in my 20's with various Construction Jobs to Independence in my 30's. I have been in all those shoes and to get where I am now and have these maggots punish me for it is unacceptable brother. I just hope you don't hold on to that rope too long. I honestly believe that people like you and I are gonna suffer under this Bill. Like never before.

As far as healthcare, it's been used as leverage against labor as well. People stay working in shit jobs that they hate, for poor wages, for fear of losing their benefits. Truthfully, a lot of this is mental, but it's tangible as well. Home Depot (I'm just picking names here) can get insurance that costs 30% as much per capita (again just pulling numbers) as a person can get on their own. Therefore, they can pay shit but lure you in with the golden "Benefits." Bob's Hardware can't do that. He can offer $16/hour instead of HD's $10, but after his 5-person group rate triples the insurance cost, the employee winds up with a net loss and is better off at Home Depot.

More mental than tangible I think my friend, but I hear your point. We gotta leave it up to the free market though Cuyo. As long as we allow the Government to obstruct our dreams we will be vulnerable to what comes along with their help. Think about that?

This is the reason I support the bill; It ends this. It's also the reason the GOP is so against the bill, despite concessions made by the Democrats. GOP is pro big business. Job mobility is bad for big business. Economic slavery is good for big business. And big business weakens the middle class; therefore, the economy.

You have to realize that the party and lunatics that you support desire economic slavery. When they grant amnesty and wages go down you will hopefully finally understand that. Can't have it both ways, right?

Hope that's helped clear some things up.

Well if anything, I respect you a whole hell of alot more even though we disagree. I can be harsh, but I treat people how they treat me. I think that you are mistaken to believe in this Bill, but I hope everything works out for you with your business. ~BH

 

[Cuyo]

BH, so your position is that since you had to suffer through the tail-end of Reaganomics and I through Bush, so should everyone else?

Outsourcing is the topic that's still being ignored. You say it's a labor of both parties, I say predominantly Republicans. That's just symantecs. Actually it's not the government that "Does it" at all - It's the private sector. So government's only interaction is to what degree it is permitted of a citizenry that makes there money on our shores. What level of obstruction can we perpetrate without being labeled "Socialists?"

IMHO you cannot improve the global economy. Call it dollars, yen, euros, whatever -- There's only so much stuff to go around. Anything you do is a delay of the inevitable. Hell, our own economy is nothing but a giant ponzi scheme after all, right? Goldsmith method, fractional reserve and all that noise, it's all artificial wealth, isn't it? We're banking on the fact that we'll all be dead before we reach what economists call the "Long Run." I forget who famously said that; "We'll never know, we'll all be dead." Paraphrased of course.

We can improve our own economy however. Right now we're hemorrhaging jobs and wealth the world over. We could reign this in through tariffs and laws against outsourcing, or both, but yet we don't. Can you imagine John Boner on the tube tomorrow if Barack started pushing for tariffs? Christ, it'd be like the man's Stalin incarnate.

So where are you on the topic? You've given me enough innuendo to suggest you might be on board. But when Boner and the rest of the boners fell in lock step against it, would you hold your position?

 

[The Rabbi]

BH, so your position is that since you had to suffer through the tail-end of Reaganomics and I through Bush, so should everyone else?

Outsourcing is the topic that's still being ignored. You say it's a labor of both parties, I say predominantly Republicans. That's just symantecs. Actually it's not the government that "Does it" at all - It's the private sector. So government's only interaction is to what degree it is permitted of a citizenry that makes there money on our shores. What level of obstruction can we perpetrate without being labeled "Socialists?"

IMHO you cannot improve the global economy. Call it dollars, yen, euros, whatever -- There's only so much stuff to go around. Anything you do is a delay of the inevitable. Hell, our own economy is nothing but a giant ponzi scheme after all, right? Goldsmith method, fractional reserve and all that noise, it's all artificial wealth, isn't it? We're banking on the fact that we'll all be dead before we reach what economists call the "Long Run." I forget who famously said that; "We'll never know, we'll all be dead." Paraphrased of course.

We can improve our own economy however. Right now we're hemorrhaging jobs and wealth the world over. We could reign this in through tariffs and laws against outsourcing, or both, but yet we don't. Can you imagine John Boner on the tube tomorrow if Barack started pushing for tariffs? Christ, it'd be like the man's Stalin incarnate.

So where are you on the topic? You've given me enough innuendo to suggest you might be on board. But when Boner and the rest of the boners fell in lock step against it, would you hold your position?

So much ignorance, so many words.
There is not "so much stuff to go around." Resources ultimately are unlimited because human imagination is unlimited. When one thing runs out, like whale oil, humans find another to take its place.
If the world economy is a Ponzi scheme then it is a damn good one, having provided an unprecedented flow of goods and services to its people.
We cannot "reign" (sic) in the flow of jobs from outsourcing because the uS is a net beneficiary of outsourcing. We cannot protect our way to prosperity. If we could E.Germany would be a world economic power.
People get wealthy by making trades of one thing for another. Restricting these voluntary activities does not result in more wealth but less. Tariffs restrict trade and therfore result in less wealth. Look what happened when Bush put a tariff on steel to please the steel workers' unions. Immediately the industries that use steel, autos and appliances, complained their costs were artificially raised. That is your tariff at work.
And who is "Boner"?? Do you mean John Boehner?
The only boner I see here is you.

Oh, and it was Keynes, a homosexual without children, who said "in the long term we are all dead."

 

[PatekPhilippe]

BH, so your position is that since you had to suffer through the tail-end of Reaganomics and I through Bush, so should everyone else?

Outsourcing is the topic that's still being ignored. You say it's a labor of both parties, I say predominantly Republicans. That's just symantecs. Actually it's not the government that "Does it" at all - It's the private sector. So government's only interaction is to what degree it is permitted of a citizenry that makes there money on our shores. What level of obstruction can we perpetrate without being labeled "Socialists?"

IMHO you cannot improve the global economy. Call it dollars, yen, euros, whatever -- There's only so much stuff to go around. Anything you do is a delay of the inevitable. Hell, our own economy is nothing but a giant ponzi scheme after all, right? Goldsmith method, fractional reserve and all that noise, it's all artificial wealth, isn't it? We're banking on the fact that we'll all be dead before we reach what economists call the "Long Run." I forget who famously said that; "We'll never know, we'll all be dead." Paraphrased of course.

We can improve our own economy however. Right now we're hemorrhaging jobs and wealth the world over. We could reign this in through tariffs and laws against outsourcing, or both, but yet we don't. Can you imagine John Boner on the tube tomorrow if Barack started pushing for tariffs? Christ, it'd be like the man's Stalin incarnate.

So where are you on the topic? You've given me enough innuendo to suggest you might be on board. But when Boner and the rest of the boners fell in lock step against it, would you hold your position?

Do you have an education?

Why is it I could find work at 38 years of age that's recession proof, pays well into 6 figures a year in the maritime industry and you blame your own situation on outsourcing, exploitve labor practices and class warfare?

You sound like a pinko commie bastard when you spout crap like that.

You chose wrong Cuyo.....better take a look at where you made a left instead of a right. You and you alone are responsible for the position you are in at any given time throughout your life...BOTTOM LINE!

You better wake up pal...while your still young enough to correct your mistakes.