The Christian Foundation of the United States:

[AllieBaba]

It isn't even Christian....I would like to see ANYONE show us scripture that discusses the equality of men and how we are born with certain rights.

Oh, I see. The FF were lying, or mistaken, when they said they were structuring the country on Christian values.

Thanks for setting us, and the world, straight, Bod. You're great!

If you look to the writing of our Founders, they say a little of everything...you quote Jefferson....ok, Jefferson ALSO said our government was specifically designes to have a separation between church and state.

You quote Franklin...he wasn't even Christian.

You've quoted John Q. Adams....he also said our nation was NOT founded on Christian principles.

Seems to me, we have Founders that pandered in their quotes depending on who they talked to....just like today.

I look to the Product...the Constitution. Where are the Christian tenets in the Framework of our government? They...are...not...there, Allie.

Oh, so your entire argument is that if it's not in the Constitution, it didn't affect the formation of the country.

Ok.


And I never said that all the founders were Christian. That wasn't the claim. Nor did I deny the exclusion of any particular religion from our LAWS.

The down and dirty remains the same. The country was founded on Christian principles. ACCORDING TO THE FF.

Now you want to say "Yeah, they did say that but they didn't really mean it."

That's neither here nor there. We don't know what they THOUGHT. We can only go by what they SAID and wrote. And what they said and wrote was that they FOUNDED this country upon Christian principles.

 

[lizzie]

from Plato (estimated year of birth 427 BC):

And that proves it's not a Christian tenet...how???? Because Plato believed it too?

Comes down to this...the people who structured the foundations of this country did not reference Rome, or Plato, or Freemasonry, when they TOLD US WHAT THEY WERE STRUCTURING THE FOUNDATION on. They TOLD us they were structuring it on Christian values, and looking for the support of God.

So if you want to argue they were LYING, then that's another subject. But what they, the founders, said, and what they appeared to be trying to do, and what they SAID they were trying to do, was to create a union that was pleasing to God, as they believed liberty came from God and should be protected.

So would you like to state that you think they were lying, and we can go from there?

Well, how can something be a christian tenet when it predates christianity?

When the Christian religion adopted it. The dawn of civilization didn't begin with Christianity. It's the youngest major world religion with the exception of Islam.

 

[AllieBaba]

Irrelevant. Just because what came to be a Christian tenet is also the tenet of other faiths and philosophies doesn't mean that our founding fathers didn't found the country on Chrsitian tenets.

You can argue the origin of it all day long. But the FF said they were basing the foundation upon Christian principles, and with the understanding that there is a God.

Sure plato may have had something similar. But they didn't reference Plato. They referenced God.

 

[bodecea]

Oh. So because a poll says the people polled don't know what the US was founded upon, that means it wasn't founded upon Christian principles.

This is insane.

Who founded this country? And what did they say they were basing the structure upon?

I am amused in noting you completely ignored the rest of that post.

 

[blu]

A good portion of the founders were Deist, some of them were Atheist, some were Christian. The principles upon which this country were founded are common among several of the world's religions, and are more aligned with general philosophical thought than any specific religion.

 

[bodecea]

Irrelevant. Just because what came to be a Christian tenet is also the tenet of other faiths and philosophies doesn't mean that our founding fathers didn't found the country on Chrsitian tenets.

You can argue the origin of it all day long. But the FF said they were basing the foundation upon Christian principles, and with the understanding that there is a God.

Sure plato may have had something similar. But they didn't reference Plato. They referenced God.

actually, a vague creator is referenced in the Dec of Ind....but no god at all in referenced in the Constitution or the Bill of Rights...and they are the foundation of our Country.

 

[lizzie]

Irrelevant. Just because what came to be a Christian tenet is also the tenet of other faiths and philosophies doesn't mean that our founding fathers didn't found the country on Chrsitian tenets.

Those same tenets that are common to other religions.

Sure plato may have had something similar. But they didn't reference Plato. They referenced God.

Plato referenced God, and the ff's referenced God, not Jesus. Jesus is specific to Christianity. God is common to all religions.

 

[AllieBaba]

There we have it.

The foundation of our country has nothing to do with the Declaration or anything except the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

According to Bod.

Our nation burst upon the scene fully formed and with no background, prior to those docs.

Brilliant.

You do know what "founded" means, right? What do you think the constititution was founded upon? It can't be founded upon itself, after all....

 

[AllieBaba]

Irrelevant. Just because what came to be a Christian tenet is also the tenet of other faiths and philosophies doesn't mean that our founding fathers didn't found the country on Chrsitian tenets.

Those same tenets that are common to other religions.

Sure plato may have had something similar. But they didn't reference Plato. They referenced God.

Plato referenced God, and the ff's referenced God, not Jesus. Jesus is specific to Christianity. God is common to all religions.

Yeah. You think the founding fathers were referencing some other God. Despite what they said.

Got it.

 

[lizzie]

Irrelevant. Just because what came to be a Christian tenet is also the tenet of other faiths and philosophies doesn't mean that our founding fathers didn't found the country on Chrsitian tenets.

Those same tenets that are common to other religions.

Sure plato may have had something similar. But they didn't reference Plato. They referenced God.

Plato referenced God, and the ff's referenced God, not Jesus. Jesus is specific to Christianity. God is common to all religions.

Yeah. You think the founding fathers were referencing some other God. Despite what they said.

Got it.

What? You believe there is more than one God? Or did the ff's mention the Christian god by name?

 

[AllieBaba]

It's dishonest to pretend they were talking about some OTHER, non-Christian, God.

 

[AllieBaba]

"
[FONT=times new roman,times]Since the pursuit of happiness, as Sigmund Freud surmised, is tied to human love and to creative work and play, the principles of American Judeo-Christian Values can rightly be summarized as the honoring of God-given Life, Liberty and Creativity. This seed of American social justice was then fleshed out in the U.S. Constitution through reason and common sense, unencumbered by the dysfunctional religious and secular traditions, and laws of Old Europe. [/FONT]


[FONT=times new roman,times]Our Founding Fathers separated church from state, but they wisely did not separate God from state; they acknowledged God as the source of our rights, and, in fact, they were careful to place Biblical morality directly into our founding documents and laws, and into our values and culture precisely to help prevent a future of totalitarian or tyrannical rule in America. The combination of keeping Judeo-Christian religious morality in the state, as opposed to the church it's self; and, additionally, setting up our laws based on reason and common sense has contributed to the American Character, and to what is known as "American Exceptionalism." [/FONT]


[FONT=times new roman,times]Our Founding Fathers were religious in a new way, the Judeo-Christian way, and they were the liberals of their day by deducing that our political and human rights come from a power higher than human government; but they were conservative to Biblical morality. There was and still is a connection between God and Liberty; He is the author of it. It is ironic that American Conservatives are now the champion of this our most liberal founding principle; and also an irony that most American Conservatives are wholly unaware of their connection with the liberal founding ideas of this great republic. It is also an irony that many American Liberals have turned a blind eye to the required connection between God and Liberty. As Thomas Jefferson and John Adams noted, as you will see below, Liberty cannot survive among men without its Divine connection.[/FONT]


[FONT=times new roman,times]In Judeo-Christian America one finds the idea of equality before God and the law, but not government forced economic equality. Modern European culture has stressed the value of economic equality rather than Liberty, and their governments unjustly enforce the principle. This has led to the failed European inventions of Socialism and Communism. Socialists in America have been lured into this failed European idea of social justice."[/FONT]

"[FONT=times new roman,times]Thomas Jefferson, and as far as I can tell, the great majority of our Founding Fathers explicitly put God into the national life of the United States, precisely by putting the Creator into the Declaration of Independence. It is important that American Liberty has something to do with God; that is something for students to know and discuss, even if they are not particularly religious.

[FONT=times new roman,times]This does not represent some form of tyranny of the religious majority or an injustice; it was in fact the wisdom of our Founding Fathers to stand in opposition to tyranny and injustice by acknowledging the source of our rights -- those rights originating from God rather than from King George III, or for that matter from the Soviet or Chinese Politburo, or a courthouse, or a legislature. It should be self-evident that if our sacred human rights are derived from government, they can also be removed by government.[/FONT]

[FONT=times new roman,times]America is a melting pot of diverse people including Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists and Atheists; and from the Judeo-Christian perspective: all made in God's image. We have in America a multiethnic society, and that is good. What is unhealthy for America is for it to become Balkanized, which is very likely to happen with the atrophy of Judeo-Christian American Culture and Values. [/FONT]

[FONT=times new roman,times]Worse yet would be for America to adopt the toxic values which exist in some parts of the world and which are endemic in some foreign cultures. The values of Fascism, Nazism, Communism or Totalitarian Islamic Sharia Law for example must never metastasize in our American Culture, which traditionally has been Judeo-Christian. These values have been with us from the beginning and they have made us strong and successful. These Judeo- Christian Values should be kept central to the American spirit and culture even as we have become more multi-ethnic. Honoring foreign cultures is desirable, but we should never tolerate the values of violence, coercion, totalitarianism, supremacism, bigotry or intolerance; values which are sadly endemic in some foreign cultures.[/FONT]

[FONT=times new roman,times]We must recognize that our culture, too, is worth preserving."[/FONT]
[/FONT]

American Thinker: Judeo-Christian Values

 

[bodecea]

There we have it.

The foundation of our country has nothing to do with the Declaration or anything except the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

According to Bod.

Our nation burst upon the scene fully formed and with no background, prior to those docs.

Brilliant.

You do know what "founded" means, right? What do you think the constititution was founded upon? It can't be founded upon itself, after all....

True, it cannot...it's founded upon the ideas and ideals found in the Enlightenment philosophers and the ideals of equality within groups such as the Freemasons.

What you are forgetting is that Christianity says NOTHING about equality...NOTHING. It is true that most modern Christians believe in Equality, but they didn't get it from their religion...they got it from the ideals of democracy and our republic.

I'd be more willing to agree with you if you said our modern American Christianity is based on the Democratic tenets of our Young Republic....NOT the other way around.

 

[AllieBaba]

You're a fucking idiot.

This, peeps, is the definition of "willful ignorance."

 

[AllieBaba]

""
[FONT=times new roman,times]Since the pursuit of happiness, as Sigmund Freud surmised, is tied to human love and to creative work and play, the principles of American Judeo-Christian Values can rightly be summarized as the honoring of God-given Life, Liberty and Creativity. This seed of American social justice was then fleshed out in the U.S. Constitution through reason and common sense, unencumbered by the dysfunctional religious and secular traditions, and laws of Old Europe. [/FONT]


[FONT=times new roman,times]Our Founding Fathers separated church from state, but they wisely did not separate God from state; they acknowledged God as the source of our rights, and, in fact, they were careful to place Biblical morality directly into our founding documents and laws, and into our values and culture precisely to help prevent a future of totalitarian or tyrannical rule in America. The combination of keeping Judeo-Christian religious morality in the state, as opposed to the church it's self; and, additionally, setting up our laws based on reason and common sense has contributed to the American Character, and to what is known as "American Exceptionalism." [/FONT]


[FONT=times new roman,times]Our Founding Fathers were religious in a new way, the Judeo-Christian way, and they were the liberals of their day by deducing that our political and human rights come from a power higher than human government; but they were conservative to Biblical morality. There was and still is a connection between God and Liberty; He is the author of it. It is ironic that American Conservatives are now the champion of this our most liberal founding principle; and also an irony that most American Conservatives are wholly unaware of their connection with the liberal founding ideas of this great republic. It is also an irony that many American Liberals have turned a blind eye to the required connection between God and Liberty. As Thomas Jefferson and John Adams noted, as you will see below, Liberty cannot survive among men without its Divine connection.[/FONT]


[FONT=times new roman,times]In Judeo-Christian America one finds the idea of equality before God and the law, but not government forced economic equality. Modern European culture has stressed the value of economic equality rather than Liberty, and their governments unjustly enforce the principle. This has led to the failed European inventions of Socialism and Communism. Socialists in America have been lured into this failed European idea of social justice."[/FONT]

"[FONT=times new roman,times]Thomas Jefferson, and as far as I can tell, the great majority of our Founding Fathers explicitly put God into the national life of the United States, precisely by putting the Creator into the Declaration of Independence. It is important that American Liberty has something to do with God; that is something for students to know and discuss, even if they are not particularly religious.

[FONT=times new roman,times]This does not represent some form of tyranny of the religious majority or an injustice; it was in fact the wisdom of our Founding Fathers to stand in opposition to tyranny and injustice by acknowledging the source of our rights -- those rights originating from God rather than from King George III, or for that matter from the Soviet or Chinese Politburo, or a courthouse, or a legislature. It should be self-evident that if our sacred human rights are derived from government, they can also be removed by government.[/FONT]

[FONT=times new roman,times]America is a melting pot of diverse people including Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists and Atheists; and from the Judeo-Christian perspective: all made in God's image. We have in America a multiethnic society, and that is good. What is unhealthy for America is for it to become Balkanized, which is very likely to happen with the atrophy of Judeo-Christian American Culture and Values. [/FONT]

[FONT=times new roman,times]Worse yet would be for America to adopt the toxic values which exist in some parts of the world and which are endemic in some foreign cultures. The values of Fascism, Nazism, Communism or Totalitarian Islamic Sharia Law for example must never metastasize in our American Culture, which traditionally has been Judeo-Christian. These values have been with us from the beginning and they have made us strong and successful. These Judeo- Christian Values should be kept central to the American spirit and culture even as we have become more multi-ethnic. Honoring foreign cultures is desirable, but we should never tolerate the values of violence, coercion, totalitarianism, supremacism, bigotry or intolerance; values which are sadly endemic in some foreign cultures.[/FONT]

[FONT=times new roman,times]We must recognize that our culture, too, is worth preserving."[/FONT]
[/FONT]

American Thinker: Judeo-Christian Values

 

[lizzie]

It's dishonest to pretend they were talking about some OTHER, non-Christian, God.

God is God, and whether you are Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, or otherwise, the concept is the same. What differentiates God is the prophet or wise man whom people choose to follow. Your concept of God is yours, and is no more provable than mine. I would venture a guess that our tenets and our codes of conduct are very similar. The fact remains that the founding fathers didn't say this country was founded on Christianity, or on Jesus, but used the same principles espoused by Plato in determining the essential equality of men.

 

[AllieBaba]

Yes, we've already been here.

 

[AllieBaba]

John Adams:

"Our Constitution was made for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

 

[AllieBaba]

"
"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."
Charles Carroll, signer of the Declaration of Independence

 

[AllieBaba]

"
"Freedom is not a gift bestowed upon us by other men, but a right that belongs to us by the laws of God and nature."
Benjamin Franklin